http://www.jwz.org/hacks/irc2html.pl made a much prettier HTML log (hosted on my web serve), but I couldn't figure out an easy way to get it on the wiki. Forunately MoinMoin has built-in IRC log parsing.
IRC Log for 0.10.0 Developer Meeting
1 13:00 <@boyd> couple more minutes and we'll be underway with the mtg. 2 13:00 -!- segphault [~email@example.com] has joined #tomboy 3 13:01 -!- You're now known as sandy 4 13:01 <@boyd> welcome to the meeting everyone! :) 5 13:02 <@boyd> hopefully orph joins us shortly 6 13:04 <@boyd> well, first off, congratulations everyone for helping make tomboy 0.8 a success! 7 13:04 <@boyd> we gained an awesome new maintainer (sandy) !!! 8 13:04 <@sandy> lots of new contributors, too 9 13:04 <@sandy> mw, Jc2k, etc 10 13:04 <@boyd> learned that we shouldn't start a huge feature too late in the cycle 11 13:05 <@sandy> :-/ 12 13:05 <@boyd> but sandy still pulled it off!! 13 13:05 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #tomboy 14 13:05 <@boyd> any other "success stories" anyone wants to share? 15 13:05 < seiflotfy> well gimmie is about to be able to support facebook 16 13:05 < seiflotfy> stil lworkign on it 17 13:05 < seiflotfy> i get the list of contacts 18 13:05 <@sandy> for Tomboy... ;-) 19 13:05 < seiflotfy> however i have to login on gimmie start 20 13:05 -!- CIA-1 [~CIA@188.8.131.52] has joined #tomboy 21 13:06 < seiflotfy> nope 22 13:06 < seiflotfy> hehehehe 23 13:06 <@boyd> heh 24 13:06 <@sandy> congratulations, though 25 13:06 < seiflotfy> thx 26 13:06 <@boyd> okay ... well, any other things we could improve on ... for the development process this time vs. 0.8? 27 13:06 <@boyd> ...besides make sure to start a big feature early 28 13:07 <@sandy> I think looking at the GNOME schedule like we're doing 29 13:07 <@sandy> helps us thiknk about "do we really have time to finish this feature" 30 13:07 <@sandy> or at least, by when should we have this feature "good enough" that it's just in bug fix mode 31 13:07 <@boyd> yeah, let's not start something at the beginning of december ... 32 13:07 <@boyd> or even during thanksgiving 33 13:08 <@boyd> at least not something as big as sync 34 13:08 <@sandy> right 35 13:08 <@boyd> I know that I didn't have/make as much time for bugfixing as I should have this time around 36 13:08 * boyd wonders what our current bug count is at right now 37 13:08 <@sandy> yeah, and it's hard to focus on bugfixing when you're still cleaning up a major feature 38 13:08 <@boyd> 184 open tomboy bugs right now 39 13:09 <@boyd> I think when we released 0.6, we were around 100 40 13:09 <@sandy> I think it's likely that we'll have a few 0.8.x releases 41 13:09 <@boyd> we ought to build a list of the ones we ought to try to fix for 0.8.x 42 13:09 <@boyd> and get them knocked out quickly if we can 43 13:09 <@boyd> so we can move on 44 13:09 <@sandy> good idea 45 13:10 <@boyd> ...not necessarily right now, but as a task leading out of this mtg., we ought to build the list 46 13:10 <@sandy> and we should do the same thing at the end of the cycle, maybe 47 13:10 -!- seiflotfy [~seif@P5118.pallas.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 48 13:10 <@sandy> to help us focus on bugfixing 49 13:11 <@boyd> yeah, perhaps just have a quick bug pow-wow near the end of dec (before feature freeze) 50 13:11 <@boyd> ...or would we want to hold it after feature freeze? 51 13:11 <@sandy> either way 52 13:11 * sandy takes note of action items 53 13:11 <@boyd> :) 54 13:12 <@boyd> so any other "process" improvements? 55 13:12 < Jc2k> you should have a reward for contributors to your dbus code. 56 13:12 <@boyd> heh 57 13:12 * sandy gives Jc2k a cookie 58 13:12 <@sandy> branching for tomboy sync was a bad idea 59 13:12 < Jc2k> :D 60 13:13 <@boyd> sandy: yeah, that kind of just muddied the water 61 13:13 <@sandy> we should jsut work on trunk, and not be afraid to remove stuff later if it doesn't work out 62 13:13 <@boyd> that works for me as long as we leave time to make sure our removal doesn't bust things 63 13:13 <@sandy> agreed 64 13:14 <@boyd> and somehow someone should invent more time in the day so I can hack more on tomboy 65 13:14 <@boyd> ...it doesn't help to have work assignments change all the time :-\ 66 13:14 < Jc2k> polyphasic sleep? 67 13:14 <@boyd> I didn't have as much time for 0.8 vs. 0.6 68 13:14 <@boyd> but that comes and goes 69 13:15 <@sandy> right 70 13:15 <@sandy> so since we're doing features earlier, that shouldn't be too big a deal 71 13:15 <@boyd> so anyone want to push for a specific bug to be fixed right away? 72 13:15 <@sandy> well, I don't have the number off hand, but there's a bug dealing with title restrictions 73 13:15 < Jc2k> the remainding issues in note formatting when using SetContentXml 74 13:16 <@boyd> I can see what's on Jc2k's mind :) 75 13:16 < Jc2k> :D 76 13:16 <@sandy> Jc2k: were there any visible issues left? 77 13:16 < Jc2k> i cant remember the details, but you left the bug open 78 13:16 < Jc2k> IIRC, it didnt create links properly? 79 13:16 <@sandy> no, the bug left is very minor 80 13:17 < Jc2k> oh 81 13:17 < Jc2k> :) 82 13:17 <@sandy> an extraneous tag 83 13:17 < Jc2k> apologies, i must have misread 84 13:17 <@boyd> note titles do need to be fixed up 85 13:17 <@sandy> for 0.10.0 86 13:17 <@boyd> I never hit the problem myself, but when trying the scenario, it's pretty bad 87 13:18 <@sandy> I think auto-updating of links is a bad behavior, personally 88 13:18 <@sandy> but we can discuss it in the bug, I guess? 89 13:18 <@boyd> yeah 90 13:18 <@sandy> either way, the current situation keeps hurting our users 91 13:18 <@boyd> agreed 92 13:18 <@boyd> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 93 13:18 <@boyd> that's the bug 94 13:18 <@boyd> I agree, it ought to be fixed asap! 95 13:19 <@sandy> probably can't do that for 0.8.x, though 96 13:19 <@boyd> yeah, it's gonna be a behavior/feature change 97 13:19 <@boyd> I'm guessing 98 13:19 <@boyd> why is this one marked as a blocker? https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415606 (too much distance between lines in bulleted list) 99 13:19 <@sandy> hmm 100 13:20 <@sandy> maybe the reporter did that? 101 13:20 -!- everaldo [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 102 13:20 -!- orph [~email@example.com] has joined #tomboy 103 13:20 <@boyd> not even critical imo, but we can fix that easily enough 104 13:20 <@sandy> yup 105 13:20 <@boyd> hey orph! we're just talking abt. what our most annoying bugs are ... that we should fix soon before diving into new features 106 13:21 -!- mchasal [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Read error: 78 (Connection timed out)] 107 13:21 <@boyd> so basically the ones related to changing the title let's get them fixed: #250990 & #444685 108 13:21 <@sandy> there is a sync bug I should get for 0.8.x...doesn't need to be discussed 109 13:22 <@boyd> k 110 13:22 <@boyd> mark that one down 111 13:22 <@sandy> yeah 112 13:22 <@boyd> what abt. the "help kill libegg" one? 113 13:22 <@sandy> well, that will take some work 114 13:22 <@boyd> not really a big bug I guess 115 13:22 <@sandy> we would have to switch to using gtkstatusicon 116 13:22 <@sandy> which has less features than libegg 117 13:22 <@sandy> because it's not a widget 118 13:22 <@boyd> ah 119 13:22 <@sandy> no middle-click, for example 120 13:23 <@sandy> I'd be interested in working on that if I have time 121 13:23 <@boyd> well, a more important annoyance is the Mono.Addins not always loading at startup 122 13:23 <@boyd> let's put the libegg thing down but prob. just something to look at if we get to it 123 13:23 <@sandy> is there a bug for that? 124 13:24 <@boyd> I don't think there's a mono.addins bug reported 125 13:24 <@boyd> I'm just concerned there will be 126 13:24 <@sandy> I'm not familiar with that problem 127 13:24 <@boyd> I haven't really tested all the upgrading problems 128 13:24 <@boyd> s/problems/scenarios 129 13:24 <@boyd> I know that when I'm building different version of tomboy and running them, occasionally, the addins don't load 130 13:24 < orph> oh crap. i misread the time of the meeting as 2pm. sorry dudes. good thing i showed up "early" :) 131 13:25 <@boyd> and I have to restart tomboy a couple times before addins start working 132 13:25 <@sandy> oh, that's true 133 13:25 <@boyd> orph: no worries, glad you're here! 134 13:25 <@boyd> sandy: I just wonder if anyone who upgrades from 0.6.x -> 0.8 will hit that issue 135 13:25 <@boyd> I can ask our QA guy to test that one out (write that down as an action item for me) :) 136 13:25 <@sandy> okay, so that needs to be tested 137 13:26 <@boyd> if it's a problem, it ought to be added to the things to take care of right awy 138 13:26 <@sandy> agreed 139 13:26 <@sandy> any other bugs to discuss? 140 13:26 <@boyd> prob. not anything needed immediately 141 13:26 <@sandy> alright, features! 142 13:27 * Jc2k hands out propaganda 143 13:27 <@boyd> open the flood-gates 144 13:27 <@sandy> boyd: what are you think about Tasks? 145 13:27 <@sandy> we've been getting some nice bug reports 146 13:27 <@boyd> yeah, it's been good feedback 147 13:27 <@sandy> and the recent notes menu integration is really cool 148 13:27 <@sandy> I think Tasks has legs, and makes sense in Tomboy 149 13:28 <@sandy> but I haven't used it much 150 13:28 <@boyd> one thing I noticed watching someone the other day ... 151 13:28 <@boyd> it would be really good to add something to the menu so that ... 152 13:28 <@boyd> a user could just add a simple task right then and there in the menu 153 13:28 <@boyd> instead of having to pop open a window/etc. to doit 154 13:28 <@boyd> you know, when you just want to grab a piece of paper and jot it down? ... as a task? 155 13:29 <@sandy> interesting 156 13:29 <@boyd> you don't want to have to click all over the place 157 13:29 < orph> ya 158 13:29 <@boyd> same thing might be true for a note actually 159 13:29 <@sandy> so we kind of have two apps in one 160 13:29 <@sandy> with good integration between them 161 13:29 <@boyd> kinda 162 13:29 < orph> what about creating a new note and prefixing the name with TODO: 163 13:29 < orph> (btw, i think that's how all TODOs should work) 164 13:29 <@boyd> orph: possibly 165 13:30 <@sandy> I think the issue is people like to make todo lists in their notes, right? 166 13:30 <@sandy> that's reallyt he problem we're trying to solve? 167 13:30 <@boyd> I know that a lot of people have said that they want a way to be taking meeting notes and then just create todo items directly inline with their meeting notes 168 13:30 < Jc2k> there was a site that used a note to generate several tasks... i linked sandy and boyd 169 13:30 -!- mchasal [~email@example.com] has joined #tomboy 170 13:30 < orph> you could even have a New TODO Note in the menu, which would make it even easier, and would just create a new note named "TODO: Timestamp" 171 13:30 <@boyd> the whole tasks/todo idea definitely needs to be explored more 172 13:31 <@boyd> orph: have you been able to try out the tasks addin that's currently in svn trunk? 173 13:31 < orph> creating todo lists in notes can be handled by making todo items into notes, and using not linking to list them out in other notes. 174 13:31 < orph> the same way the rest of tomboy works 175 13:32 <@boyd> orph: ah! I like that idea! 176 13:32 <@sandy> yeah, but then it's hard to find your todos 177 13:32 <@boyd> a todo is essentially a special kind of note 178 13:32 < orph> maybe you even show a lil checkbox next to the link 179 13:32 <@sandy> and whether or not they're completed 180 13:32 < orph> and cross out the link text when the todo is completed 181 13:32 <@boyd> hehe, showing checkboxes next to the link! I'll give someone a sweet prize if they can get that working well! 182 13:32 <@sandy> you tried that already, right? 183 13:33 <@boyd> yeah, but I'm no gtk expert either 184 13:33 < orph> no one is ;) 185 13:33 <@boyd> kudos to anyone who braves the TextIter & TextBuffer! 186 13:33 <@boyd> what do you guys think about storing tasks in EDS? 187 13:33 < orph> i think it's a waste of time. 188 13:33 <@boyd> good? bad? use it optionally? ? 189 13:34 < Jc2k> i think if the user wants it, they need to come to #conduit.. 190 13:34 <@sandy> as part of GNOME, there will be yelling if we don't use EDS 191 13:34 <@boyd> some people have said how tomboy should just expose creating and displaying eds tasks 192 13:34 * sandy doesn't use Evo and doesn't care about EDS, personally 193 13:34 < Jc2k> eh 194 13:34 <@boyd> I've been opposed to it at first 195 13:34 < orph> no one cares about EDS 196 13:34 < Eimi> Personally, I won't use it until it's in EDS. I simply have too much stored there to start duplicating. 197 13:35 < Jc2k> if you are going to say that, why dont you store tomboy notes in Evo. it has a memo facility.. 198 13:35 <@sandy> well, the memo is a joke 199 13:35 < orph> Eimi: well, i don't think anyone is proposing importing all the existing EDS todo items as tomboy todos. 200 13:35 <@sandy> whereas the tasks are more complete 201 13:36 < maxasdf> orph: syncing will be an issue though. 202 13:36 <@boyd> I think the real key is that the entire desktop needs ... some centralized place to store stuff like this. eds happens to be like that to a degree 203 13:36 <@boyd> tomboy should be one place people can create tasks 204 13:36 <@boyd> there ought to be a nice widget too 205 13:36 < kurros> the clock-applet uses EDS, i think thats one visible place why users my want it, but between sync and having the tomboy applet not too far away i'm not sure if its as important 206 13:36 <@boyd> and maybe a full-on tasks application "pimlico" or whatever it is 207 13:36 < Eimi> My point is merely that todos that exist outside of EDS don't get sync'd to my palm, where the rest of the todos live, and therefore are way too likely to be forgotten for me to use them. I may not be typical in that way, of course. 208 13:36 <@boyd> and they could all tie back into eds 209 13:37 < Jc2k> Eimi: thats where #conduit comes in. and it will be more than the palm users that benefit. 210 13:37 < kurros> I think Conduit might help there 211 13:37 < orph> the other thing is how much UI do you want to add to tomboy tasks? Evo tasks have a bunch of ui for %complete and due dates etc 212 13:37 <@boyd> orph: I think we need to keep it simple 213 13:37 -!- everaldo [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #tomboy 214 13:37 < Jc2k> i think if you overload it, it would suck. 215 13:37 <@sandy> in a TODO note...have "open task in Evo" link at bottom 216 13:37 < orph> i think if you introduce todos in tomboy, you make them more like notes and lightweight, and less like calendar todo tasks. more GTD-style. 217 13:37 <@sandy> or something like that 218 13:38 < Jc2k> orph: agree 100% 219 13:38 <@boyd> orph: I agree as well 220 13:38 <@boyd> I just know we'll have a better "win" if we satisfy people who actually do use evo already 221 13:38 <@sandy> so if a Tomboy TODO automatically maps to an EDS task, you can edit those details in an app that's designed for it 222 13:38 < maxasdf> Maybe have a very basic todo note in tomboy + open task in evo if you really want all that % completed etc 223 13:38 < orph> so that's a good reason to avoid EDS, since you don't want to get roped into "heavy" tasks 224 13:38 <@boyd> all we realy have to do is abstract the todo storage 225 13:38 <@boyd> and let users decide 226 13:38 <@boyd> we don't even have to write the eds part 227 13:38 < Jc2k> sandy: if conduit is a blessed dep that takes about 4 lines of code 228 13:39 <@boyd> someone who cares could doit ;) 229 13:39 < orph> oh oh 230 13:39 < orph> you could have Evo tasks link like tomboy notes, so if you type the task name, it'd link to the evo task 231 13:40 <@boyd> sure 232 13:40 <@sandy> ah, and have a link facility that creats EDS tasks? 233 13:40 < orph> but that could be separate from tomboy todo items. 234 13:40 <@sandy> like our note link button 235 13:40 < orph> sandy: no. just open them in evo. 236 13:40 <@sandy> I mean for task creation 237 13:41 <@sandy> if you want to create your task in tomboy 238 13:41 < orph> then you name a note "TODO: foo" :) 239 13:41 < orph> why would you create an evo task in tomboy? can you create an evo task in openoffice? 240 13:41 < maxasdf> how about right click + create task in evo after that? 241 13:42 <@sandy> orph: to get it in your palm, to show it in your clock/cal applet, to see it in evo... 242 13:42 < maxasdf> otherwise all todo: ... would turn up in evo. 243 13:42 < maxasdf> which might also be confusing if people just type down a long list of todos in a note. 244 13:43 < orph> sandy: see what in Evo? and Palm tasks are heavy weight just like evo tasks. 245 13:43 < Jc2k> Conduit would get them into Evo and on to Palm's, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. We could even let their be filters that the user can set so that only certain tasks make this journey. 246 13:43 <@boyd> orph: you never answered my question btw....have you tried out the tasks stuff in svn trunk? 247 13:44 < orph> i think there should be a clear separation from heavy "tasks" and light-weight "todos". tomboy should do todos, and maybe just link to tasks. 248 13:44 < orph> boyd: nope :) 249 13:44 <@boyd> orph: ???!!!! ;) 250 13:44 * Jc2k is nodding in the direction of orph 251 13:44 < orph> i hate the menu thing 252 13:44 <@boyd> heh 253 13:45 <@boyd> in any case, it appears that we SHOULD keep the tasks ... or the idea of including todos/tasks in tomboy ... 254 13:45 <@boyd> we can have more todo-specific conversations later ... right? 255 13:45 < orph> i just want my list of notes. the standard note list should have a different icon for TODO notes, or maybe a checkbox in the note menu itself 256 13:46 <@boyd> orph: the todos in the menu is eventually meant to be configurable ... i.e., show it or not 257 13:46 < orph> i think todos should just be a flavor of note, one that means it can be "completed" 258 13:46 < orph> anything else has really weird Evo crossover conflicts. 259 13:46 <@boyd> orph: here's where I think that might break down ... if you have to create a new note/separate window for every todo ... 260 13:47 < orph> not to mention that i haven't run evo in like 2 years :) 261 13:47 <@boyd> if you're taking meeting notes and writing down a bunch of todo items 262 13:47 <@boyd> you want them all in the same note 263 13:47 <@boyd> not a bunch of different windows 264 13:47 <@boyd> you know, like a bulleted list? 265 13:47 < orph> well in that case you certainly don't want each one to be an Evo task 266 13:48 <@boyd> I guess if you needed to make more detailed notes about the todo, you could then have it create/open a real todo-style note 267 13:48 < orph> you could have a shortcut for it 268 13:48 <@boyd> yeah, I'm not referring to evo at all 269 13:48 <@boyd> I could care less about it 270 13:48 < orph> like  at the start of a line creates an auto-link todo item 271 13:48 < maxasdf> boyd: can't we create todos as links without opening the linked note. So one could keep typing and maybe never create that note? 272 13:48 <@boyd> maxasdf: absolutely! 273 13:48 < orph> clicking it would open a new todo note 274 13:49 <@boyd> orph: perfect! :) 275 13:49 <@boyd> let's morph what we currently have to do this 276 13:49 < orph> oh man, that would be sexy 277 13:49 <@boyd> and we'll leave the whole evo thing out for now ... and Jc2k can work his magic of getting them into evo for everyone ;) 278 13:50 < maxasdf> would be a cool addin. 279 13:50 <@sandy> intresting idea to make Conduit a dependency of Tomboy, too 280 13:50 * Jc2k dances excitedly 281 13:50 < orph> eek 282 13:50 <@boyd> sandy: not a dep of tomboy 283 13:50 <@sandy> well, I meant optional 284 13:50 <@boyd> maybe of the tasks-evo-addin 285 13:50 <@sandy> fair enough 286 13:50 <@boyd> okay then...next? Tagging!!!! ??? 287 13:51 < orph> heh 288 13:51 <@sandy> I actually liked the tagging ui in each note 289 13:51 * orph needs coffee. back in 5. 290 13:51 <@boyd> sandy: yeah, I like it there too. I think it just needs a little more love 291 13:52 <@boyd> the UI in the search window was horrible IMO 292 13:52 <@boyd> but we still ought to have something in there 293 13:52 <@sandy> yeah 294 13:52 <@boyd> when we first started looking into tagging ... the main motivation, at least for me, was to build a solution for notebooks 295 13:52 <@boyd> i.e, I want to have a "Personal" notebook 296 13:52 <@boyd> or a "Work" notebook 297 13:52 <@boyd> or a "Project A" and a "Project B" notebook 298 13:53 < Jc2k> f-spot has a handy keyboard shortcut for attaching tags without the mouse. i think it would be good to have that same idea, if not the same shortcut.. 299 13:53 <@sandy> yeah, categorization of some sort is necessary the more I think about it 300 13:53 <@sandy> especially wrt sync 301 13:53 <@boyd> so that I could go into "Project A"-mode and all the notes I see, search, create...go into my project a notebook 302 13:53 <@boyd> well, I think we can do categorization with tags 303 13:54 <@boyd> but it would be nice to figure out an easy way to do this visually 304 13:54 <@boyd> so the user doesn't just have to come up with it themselves 305 13:54 <@boyd> something like f-spot (like Jc2k mentioned) might work, though I still haven't been sold on the way it works 306 13:54 <@sandy> boyd: so you're saying a notebook-like UI? 307 13:54 <@sandy> instead of the user manually tagging? 308 13:55 <@sandy> a sort of suggested use of tags? 309 13:55 <@boyd> sandy: that'd be one option 310 13:55 -!- Demitar [~email@example.com] has joined #tomboy 311 13:55 < Jc2k> the shortcut was more for power users, rather than the only way to tag. 312 13:55 <@boyd> at least for the search window 313 13:55 <@boyd> in the search window, some of the main tags should be visible on the left/right-hand side or something (optionall) 314 13:55 <@boyd> (optionally) 315 13:56 <@boyd> and the user could quickly filter their list by selecting a tag 316 13:56 <@sandy> boyd: do you have a screenshot of the work you were doing? 317 13:56 <@sandy> the epiphany-style UI? 318 13:56 <@boyd> I thought I did somewhere 319 13:56 <@boyd> maybe not 320 13:56 < Eimi> Should it be possible to have more than one note with the same title, but different tags? (For instance, notes named "Project Summary" for both Project A and Project B) 321 13:56 <@boyd> Eimi: not sure 322 13:56 <@boyd> Eimi: though that's a good point 323 13:56 <@sandy> everybody: It looks like we'll be running later than an hour...I will be posting an IRC log for anyone who is concerned about missing anything 324 13:56 < Jc2k> no it shouldnt, because then they are no longer tags 325 13:57 <@boyd> yeah, I don't really like making tags part of the title 326 13:57 <@boyd> but that's an interesting point anyhow 327 13:57 < Eimi> I can see good points for both ways (well, actually I can see bad points for both ways). 328 13:57 <@sandy> Eimi: that sounds like something heavier than tags 329 13:57 <@boyd> tomboy still has to remain as easy as it has always been ... so that someone who doesn't use tags isn't pestered by their existence 330 13:58 * sandy brainstorms 331 13:58 <@boyd> I've seen some os x note-taking apps that I like a lot 332 13:58 <@sandy> maybe in the recent notes menu, you can add "notebook" entries for specified tags? 333 13:58 <@sandy> or maybe that sort of UI should only be in the Search window... 334 13:59 <@sandy> but it might be neat to have quick access to all notes tagged "Work" 335 13:59 <@boyd> or ... you could move tomboy into a "Work" mode? 336 13:59 <@boyd> so that all notes you see/create automatically get the "Work" tag applied? 337 13:59 <@sandy> yeah, that is more like the notebook idea 338 13:59 < Jc2k> i like that idea 339 13:59 <@sandy> modes are tricky 340 13:59 < Jc2k> hmm 341 14:00 <@sandy> especially for something like Tomboy, which eschews modes in so many ways 342 14:00 <@boyd> just an idea ;) 343 14:00 <@sandy> oh, I think it's a good idea 344 14:00 < Jc2k> perhaps that can be an addin? 345 14:00 <@boyd> heh 346 14:00 <@sandy> just not sure how to do that in the UI 347 14:00 < Jc2k> rather than forcing it on everyone? 348 14:00 <@boyd> Jc2k: yeah, definitely 349 14:01 <@boyd> I think when you put tomboy into a specific tag "mode", you'd have to conscientiously (sp?) do so 350 14:01 <@sandy> and how would you know you're in a mode? 351 14:01 <@boyd> it'd be apparent in the main menu, each note window, and the search window 352 14:01 <@boyd> maybe a colored menuitem in the menu, a bar in the note, a toggled button in the search window 353 14:01 <@boyd> I think there are ways 354 14:02 <@sandy> but see, at that level, I think you almost want to be able to switch between entirely different note collections 355 14:02 <@boyd> we could definitely experiment with it 356 14:02 <@boyd> sandy: :) 357 14:02 < Eimi> Presumably when you're in a mode, you can still link to notes that don't have that tag...even though they don't show up in the lists 358 14:02 <@sandy> different Tomboy instances for each notebook 359 14:03 < Jc2k> sandy: ouch for conduit :P 360 14:03 <@sandy> Eimi: that's a very interesting questionto consider 361 14:03 < Jc2k> ouch for dbus.. 362 14:03 <@boyd> sandy: one drawback (could just be on implementation) is ... it'd possibly be more difficult to link to notes in multiple collections 363 14:03 <@sandy> well, maybe each Tomboy applet talks to a tomboy singleton via dbus... 364 14:03 <@boyd> I don't like the idea of different collections 365 14:03 <@sandy> who knows? 366 14:03 <@boyd> harder to search, link, etc. 367 14:04 <@boyd> but it could be possible 368 14:04 < maxasdf> where do you need the "collections" but in the main menu? 369 14:04 < Jc2k> sandy: that would be good, and means its easy for dbus based automatic testing of stuff without screwing your main notes! 370 14:04 <@boyd> we definitely need something like that! I could actually use tomboy again as a standard user! 371 14:05 < Jc2k> me too xD 372 14:05 <@sandy> boyd: on this laptop I'm using Tomboy Hackweek Edition 373 14:05 <@sandy> never use this thing 374 14:05 < orph> why not just have a tags sidebar that you toggle the visibility of from the toolbar? 375 14:05 <@boyd> that's also fix this bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=251406 - tomboy has problems if running multiple gnome sessions 376 14:05 <@sandy> orph: in the Search window? 377 14:05 < orph> that lists out all the tags and lets you type a new one with autocomplete? 378 14:05 <@boyd> orph: yeah, we kind of had that 379 14:05 <@boyd> the ui wasn't ready for 0.8 so we disabled it 380 14:05 < orph> sandy: sure, but in regular note windows too 381 14:06 <@boyd> it just needs some tender loving care now 382 14:06 < segphault> anybody seen the Zim notetaking program? Doesn't provide the same level of usability as Tomboy, but it might be a good source of inspiration 383 14:06 <@boyd> the other thing that would be interesting (maybe implemented via addins) would be operations that can be done on all the notes listed in the search window 384 14:06 < segphault> http://pardus-larus.student.utwente.nl/~pardus//projects/zim/images/screenshots/zim_1.png 385 14:06 <@boyd> so you could filter by tag and then export to HTML 386 14:06 <@boyd> or export to a blog, etc. 387 14:07 <@boyd> or export to email ... or sync to someone/etc. 388 14:07 <@sandy> segphault: interesting 389 14:07 < maxasdf> That sounds really sweet. 390 14:07 < orph> boyd: that's a nice idea 391 14:07 <@sandy> how does that scale with lots of tags? 392 14:07 <@sandy> oh, nevermind 393 14:07 <@sandy> misread the screenshot 394 14:08 <@sandy> boyd: definiteloy 395 14:08 <@boyd> well, essentially, the tagging stuff just needs a willing person to hack on it and bring it back to life! 396 14:08 <@sandy> there's a bug for reports that applies there 397 14:08 <@boyd> as long as it doesn't screw up tomboy's basic functionality, it's a no-brainer in my opinion to get it going 398 14:09 <@sandy> yeah, the current version plus search ui cleanups is very unobtrusive 399 14:09 <@boyd> any volunteers to make it rock ? 400 14:09 < orph> ya, that's why i think a simple sidebar would work best with a "Tags" toggle button in the toolbar 401 14:09 <@boyd> come on all you closet hackers! 402 14:09 <@sandy> :-) 403 14:09 * orph has too many projects to juggle :-/ 404 14:10 <@boyd> a lot of the code is already written, it really just needs some good UI love 405 14:10 <@sandy> boyd: let's turn tags back on 406 14:10 <@sandy> blog, send out emails, etc 407 14:10 <@sandy> maybe this cycle we'll actually get bugs for it? 408 14:10 <@boyd> action item: I'll get them back into trunk 409 14:10 <@sandy> patches, too? 410 14:10 * boyd likes patches! 411 14:10 <@boyd> sandy: okay, anything we need to do with sync? 412 14:11 <@sandy> I'm glad you asked... 413 14:11 < Jc2k> :) 414 14:11 <@sandy> so I talked with orph a little before feature freeze 415 14:11 <@sandy> he had some really good ideas 416 14:11 <@sandy> I'd like to eliminate as much sync UI as possible 417 14:11 <@boyd> I don't feel comfortable relying on conduit for it until conduit is part of gnome 418 14:11 * boyd hides from Jc2k 419 14:11 * Jc2k kicks boyd hard 420 14:11 <@boyd> ouch! 421 14:11 <@sandy> sync should happen in the b ackground periodically 422 14:12 <@sandy> and "just work" 423 14:12 <@boyd> sandy: I like that idea 424 14:12 <@sandy> you should onlyget bugged if tyhere's a conflict 425 14:12 < Jc2k> we are working on that and putting together a "blessed depenedency" proposal 426 14:12 <@sandy> there are some issues with whether a user should be able to use Tomboy during a sync operation 427 14:12 < Jc2k> eh, re periodically... we put dbus events in there for a reason ;) 428 14:12 <@boyd> Jc2k: hope you hurry, the new module proposal for gnome 2.22 is quickly approaching 429 14:12 <@sandy> Jc2k: constant sync might be a bit much 430 14:12 <@sandy> every 4 seconds while you're working ona note? 431 14:13 <@boyd> sandy: perhaps snapshots could be taken and synced 432 14:13 < Jc2k> sandy: good point :P 433 14:13 <@sandy> yeah, that's what I was thinking 434 14:13 <@boyd> the snapshot syncs and the user continues working on the main list 435 14:13 <@sandy> and use libnotify 436 14:13 <@sandy> when there's a conflict 437 14:13 < orph> ya, just pipeline the syncing 438 14:13 <@boyd> and if something changes in the meantime, it syncs again later 439 14:13 <@sandy> change Tomboy icon 440 14:13 <@sandy> yadda yadda 441 14:14 <@sandy> sexy notify lets you add links, so clicking the notify bubble could open the conflicting note or whatever 442 14:14 < Jc2k> boyd: johns blog hints at whats happening. 443 14:14 <@sandy> if you're reading a note, and it's updated, you get gedit-style reload bar 444 14:14 <@sandy> I think that's it 445 14:15 <@boyd> sandy: that's awesome :) 446 14:15 <@sandy> so under most circumstances there's very little sync UI 447 14:15 <@sandy> the other end 448 14:15 <@sandy> is configuration 449 14:15 < orph> yay 450 14:15 <@sandy> I want NO CONFIGURATION 451 14:15 < orph> me too! 452 14:15 <@sandy> but that requires something built into the desktop 453 14:15 <@boyd> ah, yes. 454 14:15 <@sandy> so I'd like to talke to Havoc agagin 455 14:15 < orph> or maybe a gstorage backend or something 456 14:15 * sandy can't type on this laptop 457 14:16 <@boyd> will that be ready by feature freeze? 458 14:16 < orph> google just opened up their storage api 459 14:16 <@sandy> no way? 460 14:16 <@sandy> should check that out 461 14:16 <@boyd> orph: seriously!!! 462 14:16 < orph> we could use that as a fire to get online desktop to do what we need 463 14:16 <@sandy> boyd: I can do the UI stuff 464 14:16 <@sandy> the online desktop stuff depends on what's needed 465 14:16 <@boyd> I wonder if anyone has written a fuse-fs for the new google api 466 14:17 <@sandy> if we can use some FUSE fs (like WebDAV) to get the notes to online.gnome.org, then that's easy 467 14:17 <@boyd> if we can sync directly to someone's google acct. w/o it screwing up how their email looks, I say we add that in ASAP! 468 14:17 <@sandy> if I have to work on the server side, it's not as easy 469 14:17 <@sandy> boyd: yup 470 14:17 <@boyd> I mean, who doesn't have a gmail account nowadays? ;) 471 14:17 <@sandy> too bad gmailfs didn't work for us 472 14:17 <@sandy> that would have kicked ass 473 14:18 <@boyd> agreed 474 14:18 <@boyd> I imagine someone will have something similar 475 14:18 <@sandy> yeah 476 14:18 <@sandy> so zero-or-really-easy-config for sync is important 477 14:18 <@sandy> I'd honestly rather get the UI improved 478 14:18 <@sandy> as the higher priority 479 14:19 <@sandy> maybe that's just me being embarassed about the current UI 480 14:19 <@boyd> sandy: you're right w/ that approach 481 14:19 <@sandy> easier config means more users 482 14:19 < Jc2k> any plans for device sync ;) 483 14:19 <@sandy> Jc2k: Conduit does that, yeah? 484 14:19 < Jc2k> yeah! 485 14:19 <@sandy> so why should we? :-) 486 14:19 < Jc2k> well, ipod xD 487 14:19 <@boyd> maybe long-term, but I don't see it as a huge "gotta-have" for tomboy users 488 14:20 < Jc2k> sandy: i could turn that around on u but i cbs 489 14:20 < Jc2k> cba even 490 14:20 <@sandy> yeah, I jsut realized that 491 14:20 <@sandy> :-P 492 14:20 < Jc2k> i have 10m of power :( 493 14:20 <@boyd> okay, so the revamp of note renaming behavior ??? 494 14:20 <@boyd> that work ties in with the earlier-mentioned title issues I think 495 14:21 <@sandy> I want notes named "git" and "bzr" and "whateverthehelliwant" 496 14:21 <@sandy> I don't want my content changing when I rename those notes 497 14:21 <@boyd> sandy: good luck! 498 14:21 <@sandy> is that sacreligious? 499 14:21 <@sandy> solves the whole problem 500 14:21 <@boyd> yeah, I guess if we don't automatically rename, then it would 501 14:21 <@sandy> optionally, maybe user can get prompted "you renamed this note, want to update links in these notes?" 502 14:22 < orph> i think enforcing good names is an easy enough thing to do 503 14:22 <@sandy> I don't want to be enforced 504 14:22 * sandy shrugs 505 14:22 * Jc2k nods 506 14:22 < orph> i force myself to use good names because i've lost stuff too often, or had note content corrupted 507 14:22 <@sandy> I have never once used the auto-link-update feature 508 14:22 < maxasdf> How about not automatically linking each time a title appears somewhere else? 509 14:23 < Eimi> I have never once *intended* to use the auto-link-update "feature". I've been screwed by it a few times, though. 510 14:23 < orph> the problem is that in tomboy, changing a name without updating the link means that you're screwed, because it's such a big flat namespace. you'll probably lose track of the renamed note. 511 14:23 <@sandy> I really disagree 512 14:23 <@sandy> I think search fixes that 513 14:23 <@sandy> and how often do you rename notes with long titles? 514 14:24 < orph> not when you haven't looked at a cluster of notes in a year 515 14:24 <@sandy> well, you have enough clues, imho 516 14:24 <@sandy> you have the broken link with the old note name 517 14:24 <@boyd> would there be another solution possibly? i.e., don't rename other note content, but flag that title so it appears differently? so you could click on it and navigate to the new page? 518 14:24 < Jc2k> brb guys 519 14:24 < maxasdf> sandy: if you have a note named git - do you want all occurences of "git" to link there? 520 14:24 < Eimi> This brings me back to something I was wondering about before; is there a way to get a list of orphaned notes (with no backlinks), without complicating the interface too much? 521 14:24 <@sandy> maxasdf: yes! 522 14:25 <@boyd> sandy: there is? 523 14:25 <@sandy> and when I rename "git" to "why git sucks", I want a bunch of broken links 524 14:25 <@boyd> whoops, I misread 525 14:25 < orph> boyd: i thought about that. you could have the link actually include the uuid of the note it's linked to. 526 14:25 <@boyd> orph: right 527 14:25 <@sandy> right, so we could have more complicated linking, too, as a possible solution 528 14:25 <@sandy> people have asked for that 529 14:25 <@sandy> not sure my thoughts on it 530 14:25 < orph> sandy: or you're just sick of "git" linking in a bunch of places you don't expect. 531 14:26 <@sandy> well, that's a good point 532 14:26 < Eimi> I would really love a way to find or remove all broken links. 533 14:26 <@sandy> my solution doesn't fix that particular irritating problem 534 14:26 * boyd starts whimpering thinking about TextIters and TextBuffers 535 14:26 < orph> sandy: that's the point of making the naming rules more strict. you avoid accidental linking in the first place. 536 14:26 <@sandy> Eimi: there's a bug for that, I think Boyd wrote an andd-in to fix those 537 14:26 <@sandy> we should include that add-in 538 14:27 <@boyd> I don't remember doing that 539 14:27 <@boyd> ;) 540 14:27 < maxasdf> How about typing ->git if you want a link? 541 14:27 < orph> there's a reason WikiWikiNames look like they do, it's to avoid accidental linking. 542 14:27 <@sandy> well, somebody wrote something to clean broken linnks... 543 14:27 <@sandy> orph: there's a reason most wikis don't use those anymore 544 14:27 <@sandy> or require them, at least 545 14:27 < orph> sandy: ya, they use explicit linking. that's hard to do with a WYSIWYG. 546 14:28 <@sandy> true true 547 14:28 <@sandy> maxasdf: I usually like unexpected automatic linking 548 14:28 <@sandy> "oh yeah, I had a whole note about 'git'!" 549 14:28 <@sandy> that sort of thing happens all the time 550 14:29 < maxasdf> i see. I really liked it for some time as well. 551 14:29 -!- dave_largo [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Client exiting] 552 14:29 <@sandy> but I see what you and orph are saying about linking in "agitha" or whatever 553 14:29 < orph> also 554 14:30 <@sandy> okay, I'm not seeing any "oh oh" brilliant ideas to solve this here and now 555 14:30 < maxasdf> But it gets you into trouble if you have a "git" and a "why git sucks" note and type why git sucks... 556 14:30 * sandy recants, waits for orph to finish 557 14:30 < orph> you could just not auto-link single word notes 558 14:30 < orph> you can always select the single word and click the link button if you want the link 559 14:30 <@boyd> that only partially solves the problem. it would still exist with >1 word notes 560 14:30 <@sandy> again everyone, for refverene we are discussing this bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 561 14:31 <@boyd> disabling auto-linking is an interesting idea 562 14:31 < orph> boyd: right, but the risk of corruption is much much lower with multiple word notes, and the risk of link loss much higher 563 14:32 < maxasdf> I think there are two ways people are using this. 564 14:32 < maxasdf> Maybe you could allow choosing to enable WikiWords and renaming or disable both? 565 14:32 <@sandy> action item for me: sum up proposed approaches to solving note renaming problem 566 14:32 <@boyd> orph: I agree, but the problem will still bite some people ... and we'll continue getting complaints, albeit the problem won't be encountered as often 567 14:32 < Eimi> Instead of disallowing notes with short titles, what if renaming them didn't edit anything? 568 14:32 < Eimi> I'd rather renaming notes never change anything else, but at least if it only changed for multi-word titles, it would prevent a lot of breakage. 569 14:33 < orph> i mean, i think the only problem is that people have accidentally linked words they didn't expect, and have those notes change content out from under them when they rename a note. 570 14:33 <@sandy> probably rare enough situation to solve with a dialog, imho 571 14:33 < orph> both of those go away if you limit the number of crapily named notes. 572 14:33 < maxasdf> How about only renaming WikiWords? 573 14:33 <@sandy> for that approach, we have a pretty good patch 574 14:33 <@sandy> from Boyd 575 14:34 <@sandy> that just needs some cleanup, I think 576 14:34 < orph> sandy: ya, thought about that originally. the problem is what does the dialog say? "some notes link to this one, do you want to update them?" do you then list them out, let people open the notes, have checkboxes to select which ones to update, or what? 577 14:34 < Eimi> But preventing crapily named notes adds more cognitive load for note naming. If I *want* a note named "git", I don't want to have to think too hard about what else I would name it. 578 14:34 <@sandy> orph: yeah, I'd probably prefer the complicated version of that dialog 579 14:34 <@sandy> checkboxes, etc 580 14:35 < orph> ya, screw that :) 581 14:35 <@sandy> I'm not saying it's elegant 582 14:35 <@sandy> I'm trying to optimize for the 80% case 583 14:35 <@sandy> and I really do believe people want to be able to name their ntoes whatever they want 584 14:35 <@sandy> but I'll drop it for now :-) 585 14:35 < orph> well, i'd argue that the 80% case is that people just want to rename a note, and have things update accordingly. 586 14:36 < Eimi> I'd suggest "14 notes link to the note you just renamed. If you don't update them, they will no longer link to it. You can also obtain a list of notes to update manually." with buttons for "Update", "Break links" and "List notes". 587 14:36 < Jc2k> i want to name my notes whatever i want :'( and i want things to update too :'( 588 14:36 <@sandy> stupid users! 589 14:36 <@boyd> oh boy ;) 590 14:36 < orph> sandy: so maybe just not autolinking single-word notes is the better approach. 591 14:36 <@sandy> Jc2k: stop *wanting* 592 14:37 < Jc2k> :P 593 14:37 <@sandy> perhaps 594 14:37 <@sandy> I'll document all of this stuff on the bug later tonight 595 14:37 <@boyd> again, looks like someone should hack up some code and give it a whirl! :) 596 14:37 < orph> i've only really had the problem with badly named notes. have people seen this in other cases? 597 14:37 <@sandy> that's true, people accidentally name a note 'a' 598 14:38 <@sandy> that's the biggest complaint we've seen 599 14:38 < orph> or use a common dictionary word 600 14:38 <@sandy> it's not normally going from good name 1 to good name 2 601 14:38 <@boyd> I think the safest approach is to require users to name their notes with a full 10-word sentence :) 602 14:38 <@sandy> in iambic pentameter 603 14:38 -!- slomo [~email@example.com] has quit [Ex-Chat] 604 14:38 <@boyd> ...or at least warn them when we detect a note title that is suspicious 605 14:38 < orph> hah, now there's an add-in i'd love to see! 606 14:39 <@boyd> ...or an add-in that spins the wheel for a randomly-named title :) 607 14:39 <@sandy> alright, next issue? 608 14:39 <@sandy> Scalability? 609 14:39 <@boyd> seriously though, I think requiring a note title with a certain length/# of words is obviously the safest, just not the most convenient for users 610 14:39 <@boyd> yes, next topic! 611 14:39 < orph> speaking of randomly named title, do people want to replace the "new note 123" with a timestamp? 612 14:40 <@boyd> orph: I've heard that feedback a lot, yes 613 14:40 <@sandy> yeah, we should probably just go ahead and do that 614 14:40 * maxasdf would like it too. 615 14:40 <@boyd> though it gets kind of hard to read a list of notes that way sometimes 616 14:40 < orph> i was originally against it, because i found through trial and error that timestamped notes meant i didn't rename them right away 617 14:40 <@boyd> but, let the users pick! 618 14:40 <@sandy> anyone care that I changed the new note title selection behavior? 619 14:40 <@boyd> sandy: to what? 620 14:40 <@sandy> I think orph's suggestion helps that 621 14:40 < orph> whereas using a lame note title like "new note 123" meant i always rename it right away 622 14:40 <@sandy> create new note, select content 623 14:41 <@sandy> used to be: create new note, selct title 624 14:41 <@sandy> so you don't have to rename before you start typing content 625 14:41 <@sandy> I like the change 626 14:41 <@boyd> sandy: I hit that same thing TODAY! 627 14:41 <@sandy> and I think changing the default new note title makes it even more obvious 628 14:41 < orph> huh? it was always select the content on new note creation! 629 14:41 <@boyd> orph: really? 630 14:41 < orph> ya! when did that change? 631 14:42 <@boyd> orph: you sure? ;) 632 14:42 <@sandy> well, it changed at some point 633 14:42 < orph> Tomboy 0.6.3 that I have installed does it. 634 14:42 <@boyd> well, in any case, we need to change it back then 635 14:42 <@sandy> I did that alraedy 636 14:42 * boyd hopes he's not the one to blame 637 14:42 < Eimi> If you change the default new note title, then Note of the Day becomes pretty much obsolete 638 14:42 <@boyd> Eimi: possibly 639 14:42 <@sandy> clarifying: 640 14:43 * orph actually really likes the "new note 123" thing 641 14:43 < orph> in fact, i love it 642 14:43 < orph> but i'll cede to the crowd :-> 643 14:43 <@boyd> orph: what a good little boy :) 644 14:43 * sandy looks up bug 645 14:44 * sandy is using old TOmboy on this laptop 646 14:44 <@sandy> 647 14:44 <@sandy> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449478 648 14:44 <@sandy> whoops 649 14:44 <@sandy> had it backwards 650 14:44 <@sandy> but I now agree we should change it back to the way it was 651 14:44 <@sandy> select content, not title 652 14:44 <@sandy> if the note title is more useful than New note 123 653 14:45 < orph> selecting content is extremely important 654 14:45 <@sandy> I like my last comment on that bug...nobody ever noticed the change! 655 14:45 <@boyd> I agree 656 14:45 < orph> did tomboy ship with title selection?? 657 14:45 <@sandy> well, we can change that for 0.8.1 without bothering anybody 658 14:45 <@boyd> sandy: I noticed it this morning when I wanted to start typing immediately 659 14:45 <@sandy> orph: yes 660 14:45 < orph> fuck! 661 14:46 * orph waits for 0.8.1 ;-) 662 14:46 * sandy fired? 663 14:46 < orph> no way dude! 664 14:46 <@boyd> I'd almost prefer to have EVERYTHING (title and content) selected 665 14:46 <@boyd> I never keep either of them around 666 14:46 <@sandy> okay, action item for me 667 14:46 <@sandy> unfuck tomboy 668 14:47 < orph> boyd: nah, then you end up with titles that don't make any sense when you start typing 669 14:47 <@boyd> this is starting to remind me of boston summit 2006 670 14:47 <@boyd> orph: I wouldn't, but maybe you would! ;) 671 14:47 <@sandy> maybe I can sneak in change from "New Note 123" to timestamp, too 672 14:47 <@sandy> boyd: new users would, I'm sure 673 14:47 <@sandy> since it's so free form 674 14:47 <@boyd> sandy: you're prob. right 675 14:48 <@sandy> okay, glad we discussed that 676 14:48 < orph> i would suggest trying out the timestamp thing before committing it. watch to see if you end up renaming notes as much as you do now. 677 14:48 < orph> i didn't 678 14:48 <@sandy> ah, which you're saying is abd 679 14:48 <@sandy> bad 680 14:48 < orph> ya 681 14:48 <@sandy> gotcha 682 14:48 <@sandy> user gains a lot from naming their notes well 683 14:48 <@boyd> well ... that goes back to a discussion we had a long time ago ... 684 14:48 < orph> exactly :) 685 14:48 <@boyd> let the user set up how it's named in the preferences 686 14:49 <@boyd> Note 123, Date/Time, etc. 687 14:49 <@sandy> same problem...I think 688 14:49 <@sandy> not that I'm saying we shouldn't do it 689 14:49 < orph> boyd: maybe a hidden pref, but i suspect there's an optimal title 690 14:49 <@sandy> but if there's a default that they like, they won't make better names 691 14:49 <@boyd> orph: you're such an optimist :) 692 14:49 < orph> ya, there's a bunch of head fakes in tomboy 693 14:49 <@boyd> hidden pref is fine 694 14:50 < orph> the new note title is one of them :) 695 14:50 <@sandy> oh, I forgot to mention 696 14:50 <@sandy> wrt sync 697 14:50 <@sandy> I'd like to be able to sync based on tag 698 14:51 <@sandy> is anyone opposed to that 699 14:51 <@boyd> sandy: it just complicates things a LOT 700 14:51 <@sandy> well, I'll write up a little design before coding 701 14:51 <@sandy> I don't think it's too bad 702 14:51 <@boyd> k 703 14:51 <@sandy> I have some notes somewhere about it 704 14:51 <@sandy> lets me not sync ponitless work stuff back to home, or personal stuff to my compnay-controlled computer 705 14:51 <@sandy> etc 706 14:52 <@boyd> right, I understand the use case 707 14:52 <@boyd> just might be hard to have it not muddy the "ease of use" waters 708 14:52 <@sandy> alright, I won't do it without convincing you 709 14:52 <@sandy> :-) 710 14:52 <@sandy> I'll write something up 711 14:52 <@boyd> cool 712 14:52 <@boyd> so ... scaling? 713 14:52 <@boyd> anyone want to champion building an index on top of all the notes? 714 14:53 < orph> the problem with partial syncing is that there's a big screwage factor. 715 14:53 <@boyd> (wow, this mtg. is super long) 716 14:53 < orph> like you're working on a note, and forget to tag it, and then tomorrow at work you don't have it. 717 14:53 <@sandy> orph: you're right 718 14:53 <@sandy> but the default would be to sync everything 719 14:53 <@sandy> so only nitpicky users would use that feature 720 14:54 * boyd wonders how many non-hackers use sync 721 14:54 <@sandy> once it's easy enough 722 14:54 <@sandy> I think we'll see more people using it 723 14:54 < Jc2k> i support SynCE quite a bit, there are plent of non-hackers who want to use that... 724 14:54 < orph> boyd: very few currently. if it's made easy and low screwage factor, i think everyone would. 725 14:55 < orph> bulletpoints and syncing were always the big feature requests 726 14:55 <@boyd> orph: you're assuming everyone runs linux everywhere 727 14:55 <@sandy> well, this of course leads to various ports 728 14:55 <@sandy> Maemo, Windows, whatever 729 14:55 * boyd would love a port to os x 730 14:55 <@sandy> that would be hardest 731 14:56 <@boyd> or to web 2.0 732 14:56 <@sandy> can't do gtk 733 14:56 <@sandy> and so much of TOmboy is UI 734 14:56 < Jc2k> does tomboy handle syncing two partially initialised datasets (as in, "fred" has A,B and "barney" has C,D) 735 14:56 <@boyd> if I had the time/motivation, I'd write an osx-based tomboy :) 736 14:56 < Jc2k> if i had the time and osx i'd write osx conduit... 737 14:56 -!- s4kito [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 738 14:57 <@sandy> Jc2k: no, it doesn't 739 14:57 <@sandy> alright, so wrt scalability 740 14:57 <@sandy> our dbus interface is starting to rock 741 14:57 <@boyd> I haven't seen many complaints lately abt. memory suckage 742 14:57 <@sandy> could use some more stuff (like search) 743 14:57 <@sandy> but we could write some tests pretty easily in python or wahtever 744 14:58 <@sandy> to do things like add 10K noteds 745 14:58 <@boyd> or many things wrt slowing down with large # of notes 746 14:58 < segphault> is there documentation for the dbus api anywhere? 747 14:58 <@sandy> and then time certain actions 748 14:58 <@boyd> yeah, tests would be good! 749 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: in the code ;) 750 14:58 < segphault> lol ok 751 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: I don't know that anyone has written it up formally 752 14:58 <@sandy> once sync is mo' betta', I'd really like to start writing up a good test suite for Tomboy 753 14:58 <@boyd> segphault: I'm sure Jc2k would be up for documenting it though, right? ;) 754 14:59 < maxasdf> segphault: i found it rather easy to figure out. 755 14:59 <@sandy> segphault: actually, the code is pretty decent documentation 756 14:59 < segphault> I was thinking of writing a short Tomboy D-Bus tutorial 757 14:59 <@sandy> just a list of very simple methods 758 14:59 < segphault> I'm from Ars Technica btw, in case you all hadn't figured that out yet. ;-) 759 14:59 <@boyd> if someone could take the action item of testing large scale notes ... 760 14:59 < orph> maybe we should start a wiki page with all the little tomboy UI tricks that effect usability. 761 14:59 <@boyd> and report back 762 14:59 < Jc2k> conduit has a python script that dumps the tomboy interface 763 14:59 <@sandy> segphault: read you all the time, so yeah 764 15:00 <@boyd> then we'd have a better idea what we're up against as far as scalability issues 765 15:00 < segphault> :-) 766 15:00 <@boyd> ...and we'd have something to test against 767 15:00 <@sandy> startup time started hurting with additon of Mono.addins 768 15:00 <@sandy> not sure what we can do to fix that 769 15:00 <@boyd> orph: good idea 770 15:00 < orph> oh really? what's the slowdown? 771 15:00 <@sandy> probably M.A initialization stuff? 772 15:00 <@boyd> it just takes longer to load the addins vs. the plugins 773 15:00 <@boyd> yeah, it does m.a stuff 774 15:01 <@boyd> checking different directories, etc. 775 15:01 <@sandy> if it were just instantiation, the solution is easy 776 15:01 <@sandy> right 777 15:01 <@boyd> I don't think it's a huge problem really 778 15:01 <@sandy> no, but I hate seeing startup time climb 779 15:01 <@boyd> since you start tomboy up and then ... it essentially stays on from then on out 780 15:01 <@boyd> agreed. 781 15:01 < orph> could the addins be initialized in a thread? 782 15:01 <@sandy> because it increases login time 783 15:01 <@boyd> orph: guess it depends on the addin 784 15:01 <@sandy> good point 785 15:02 <@sandy> some might need to be loaded before clicking menu, etc 786 15:02 <@boyd> we've introduced a new "application" addin that gets a chance to do stuff as soon as tomboy gets churning 787 15:03 <@boyd> I like the idea of a NoteWindowAddin 788 15:03 <@boyd> not sure who recommended that, but there's no reason to load an addin automatically for every single non-opened note. 789 15:03 <@sandy> yeah, that was me 790 15:03 <@boyd> Backlinks could be changed to use that 791 15:04 <@sandy> and Print 792 15:04 <@boyd> yup 793 15:04 <@sandy> a couple others 794 15:04 < orph> neat 795 15:04 <@sandy> okay, so we'll need to do tests and take measurements 796 15:04 <@sandy> for scalability 797 15:04 <@boyd> yep 798 15:04 <@sandy> see if users are complaining, though 799 15:05 * sandy writes action item to investigate, document any reported slowdowns, write test cases, etc 800 15:05 <@boyd> these action items could possibly just be part of the RoadMap? 801 15:05 <@sandy> probably 802 15:06 <@sandy> I'll put them on the meeting page first 803 15:06 <@sandy> just to document where everything's coming from 804 15:06 <@boyd> any votes for changing Tomboy to be 1.0 next stable release? or Tomboy 2.22? or do we want to stick with 0.10 ? 805 15:07 <@sandy> I don't think 2.22 makes much sense at this point 806 15:07 < Jc2k> i vote for sticking to 0.10 807 15:07 <@sandy> only because we're not hugely integrated into gnome 808 15:07 <@sandy> we can run on older gnome, etc 809 15:08 <@boyd> sandy: I think you added this to the wiki. any thoughts/recommendations? 810 15:08 <@sandy> no, not really 811 15:08 <@sandy> I did add it 812 15:08 <@sandy> I was just wondering if anyone had ideas of what would make Tomboy "1.0" 813 15:09 <@sandy> is there a feature-complete Tomboy? 814 15:09 <@boyd> ...or does it ever need to hit 1.0? 815 15:09 <@sandy> are we less than 1.0 because we're not reallys table? 816 15:09 <@sandy> users think that 817 15:09 <@sandy> about software 818 15:09 <@sandy> < 1.0 -> not ready yet 819 15:09 <@boyd> if there's a perception problem, I don't mind moving to 1.0 820 15:09 < orph> what's the point of a 1.0 if it's already on most desktops? :-) 821 15:09 <@boyd> yeah, but if it's already there, I don't see a big need 822 15:10 <@sandy> yup 823 15:10 <@sandy> it's almost pointless 824 15:10 <@sandy> whatever the version number 825 15:10 <@boyd> although, if we did the move now, then this question wouldn't come up in the future ;) 826 15:10 <@sandy> so sticking with 0.10.0 probably makes the most sense 827 15:10 < maxasdf> Still see a lot of changes like the todos comming in. Last release did feel < 1.0 to me. 828 15:10 <@boyd> it could be exciting to see Tomboy 1.0 ! ;) 829 15:10 <@sandy> party time? 830 15:11 < orph> excellent! 831 15:11 <@sandy> okay, and Boyd, I agree with your coding guidelines suggestion 832 15:11 <@sandy> we just need to change our MD settings 833 15:11 <@boyd> k, whatever needs to be done! 834 15:11 <@boyd> THANKS EVERYONE! 835 15:12 <@sandy> oh noes, meeting over already? 836 15:12 <@sandy> :-P: 837 15:12 * sandy regards weird typo...licking eyballs or something? 838 15:12 <@boyd> thanks sandy for keeping the log and recording action items ;) 839 15:13 <@sandy> yeah, stuff might not be up on wiki until tonight 840 15:13 <@boyd> no rush 841 15:13 <@sandy> since we ran late 842 15:13 <@boyd> when you're done ... just post something to the lists 843 15:13 <@sandy> yup 844 15:13 * maxasdf goes to bed. It's past midnight here... 845 15:13 < segphault> nobody objects if I write a short article for Ars about Tomboy plans, right? 846 15:13 <@boyd> ...in case anyone cares, heh. 847 15:13 <@boyd> segphault: cool :) 848 15:13 <@sandy> the press! ahhh! 849 15:13 <@sandy> segphault: will you wait until we update the roadmap? 850 15:14 < segphault> sure, I can do that 851 15:14 <@boyd> http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap 852 15:14 <@sandy> ha, I thought you'd updated it or something 853 15:14 <@sandy> I do like my workload on the current 0.10.0 roadmap 854 15:15 <@boyd> we still need to fix up the 0.8 roadmap 855 15:15 <@sandy> true 856 15:18 -!- cps [~email@example.com] has joined #tomboy 857 15:20 -!- boyd changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | http://www.gnome.org/projects/tomboy | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/RoadMap | Latest release is 0.8.0 858 15:20 -!- maxasdf [~firstname.lastname@example.org] has left #tomboy  859 15:22 <@sandy> I put the action items up in a rough form 860 15:23 <@sandy> I'll clean it up, put up the log, and prepare the roadmap this evening 861 15:23 <@sandy> then I'll email the list 862 15:23 <@boyd> sandy: awesome, thanks! 863 15:23 <@sandy> segphault: do you subscribe to tomboy-list? 864 15:23 <@sandy> I guess I should blog it, too 865 15:23 <@sandy> for p.g.o 866 15:23 < segphault> no, I don't subscribe to tomboy-list 867 15:23 <@boyd> sandy: good idea 868 15:23 < segphault> if you could cc the message to email@example.com, I'd really appreciate it 869 15:23 <@sandy> shouldn't be a problem 870 15:23 < segphault> thanks! :-) 871 15:24 <@sandy> alright, I'm gonna go 872 15:24 <@sandy> thanks boyd for organizing this