1 16:00:29 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:00:29 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Nov  7 16:00:29 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:00:29 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:00:34 <API> #topic 5 minutes of margin
   5 16:01:44 * clown waves
   6 16:04:40 <jjmarin> hi !
   7 16:05:15 <clown> hi jjmarin
   8 16:05:24 <API> hi everybody
   9 16:05:28 <API> 5 minutes now
  10 16:05:29 <API> so
  11 16:05:38 <API> #topic Debian's switch to XFCE as the default desktop environment
  12 16:06:01 <API> #info Recently Debian made a internal commit in order to switch
  13 16:06:14 <API> #info default desktops, from GNOME to XFCE
  14 16:06:29 <API> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfca406eb694e0ac00ea04b12fc912237e01c9b5
  15 16:06:48 <API> #info one of the reasons given was Accessibility
  16 16:07:16 <API> #info I sent a email clarifying the situation of current accessibility status on both GNOME and XFCE
  17 16:07:23 <API> http://lists.debian.org/debian-upstream/2013/11/msg00000.html
  18 16:07:53 <API> #info Summarizing it in one line "Accessibility shouldn't be one of the reasons used to switch to XFCE"
  19 16:07:54 <API> DONE
  20 16:07:56 <API> ups
  21 16:07:57 <API> done
  22 16:08:06 <API> questions, thoughts, infos?
  23 16:08:12 <joanie> thoughts
  24 16:08:14 <joanie> maybe infos
  25 16:08:15 <joanie> ;)
  26 16:08:45 <joanie> The accessibility-related discussion seems to be under control. No flames, etc. So hopefully that is over and the misinformation corrected.
  27 16:08:53 <joanie> However, since this is marketing related
  28 16:09:16 <joanie> It would be good if jjmarin has time to keep an eye out for anything else that he or API or myself should address.
  29 16:09:36 <joanie> can we give that action item to you jjmarin?
  30 16:09:48 <jjmarin> yes
  31 16:09:51 <joanie> yay!
  32 16:09:58 * joanie actions it
  33 16:10:24 <joanie> #action Juanjo will keep an eye out for any subsequent accessibility-specific issues/questions/concerns that we should address.
  34 16:10:31 <joanie> thank you!
  35 16:10:40 <jjmarin> I see there is another reply in the thread saying that GNOME 3.4 was not ready, but at that time I think no DE was ready
  36 16:10:52 * joanie nods
  37 16:11:07 <joanie> and XFCE isn't ready still
  38 16:11:31 <jjmarin> yes
  39 16:11:32 <joanie> but personally, I think Debian can and should do whatever makes the most sense for them
  40 16:11:37 <API> yes I saw that answer
  41 16:11:39 <API> is somewhat odd
  42 16:11:40 <joanie> as long as they don't "blame" accessibility
  43 16:11:51 <API> because the underlying issue is still there
  44 16:11:58 <API> XFCE is also not accessible enough
  45 16:11:59 <jjmarin> exactly, I think so far it is under control
  46 16:12:01 <joanie> or rather "blame" accessibility when that blame is not valid
  47 16:12:04 * joanie nods
  48 16:12:10 <API> in any case, anything else, moving?
  49 16:12:17 <joanie> I think that's it
  50 16:12:21 <joanie> so moving
  51 16:12:27 <API> #topic OPW (Joseph)
  52 16:12:35 <API> so clown aka Joseph, your turn
  53 16:12:42 * joanie looks at clown with a puzzled expression
  54 16:12:46 <clown> hopefully I can do this quickly.
  55 16:13:31 <clown> #info Joseph was contaced by Sriram Ramkrshna and Gayathri Subrmanian to mentor Gayathri on the ARIA automated testing proposal from the dark ages.
  56 16:13:47 <clown> #info I said I did not have time to mentor anyone at the moment.
  57 16:14:09 <clown> #info But I committed to brining the issue to this group in case someone here wants to be a mentor.
  58 16:14:30 <joanie> #info Joanie wishes she had time, but she does not.
  59 16:14:32 <clown> Done, questions?  (And finished with that commitment.
  60 16:14:40 <API> hmm, if memory serves
  61 16:14:44 <API> i think that we talked about that recently
  62 16:14:56 <API> jjmarin, I think that the conclusion was removing the ARIA automated testing
  63 16:14:58 <API> from the page
  64 16:15:03 <API> basically due lack of time
  65 16:15:08 <clown> #info the project is described at this url: sri@ramkrishna.me
  66 16:15:21 <joanie> sri....
  67 16:15:23 <clown> #info the project is described at this url: https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/AriaAutomatedTesting
  68 16:15:32 <joanie> oh
  69 16:15:32 * clown sorry.  bad clipboard.
  70 16:15:33 <joanie> :)
  71 16:16:02 <API> but probably it was a IRC chat or something
  72 16:16:02 * clown hopes the minute editor can get rid of that erroneous link.
  73 16:16:05 <API> in any case
  74 16:16:12 <joanie> clown: np
  75 16:16:18 <API> #info API also doesn't have time this cycle for mentoring
  76 16:16:22 <API> and in relation to that chat
  77 16:16:51 <clown> Yes, is there a way to "archive" a wiki page.  It's still valid, but I don't want people "knocking on my door" for the next while.
  78 16:16:51 <API> #info last week, OPW was raised, and the conclusion is that no one from the a11y team seems to have time this cycle
  79 16:16:58 <API> #info for a full mentoring
  80 16:17:25 <jjmarin> so we have to remove from the list of avaiblable projects, at least for this cycle, right ?
  81 16:17:25 <joanie> or even partial mentoring
  82 16:17:30 <API> #info the only (seems to be) suitable project are adding configuration UI to some of the magnifier features
  83 16:17:43 <clown> right, jjmarin.
  84 16:17:48 <API> #info but for that, someone from the design team seems a more suitable mentor
  85 16:18:08 * clown wonders if the design team is on the case.
  86 16:18:37 <API> and done
  87 16:18:58 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will remove the ARIA testing project from the list of available projects
  88 16:18:59 <clown> so, how do we remove (temporarily) this project?
  89 16:19:14 <clown> that will do.
  90 16:19:15 <clown> :-)
  91 16:19:26 * clown thanks jjmarin
  92 16:19:51 <jjmarin> I think so, we'll recover it when we have time for mentoring
  93 16:20:50 <jjmarin> about the configuration UI, I think aday and jasper are the best candidates
  94 16:20:50 <API> so summarizing this
  95 16:21:02 <API> clown, don't know if they are waiting for any answer
  96 16:21:16 <API> but if so, the bad news is that there are no suitable mentor
  97 16:21:19 <API> at least in this meeting
  98 16:21:30 <clown> #action Joseph will formally reply to Sriram Ramkrshna stating that no mentors are available, and that the project has been withdrawn.
  99 16:22:07 <magpie> sorry i had a call
 100 16:22:17 <clown> jjmarin, can you ping me when you have removed the project?  I'll send the email after you do that.
 101 16:22:33 <API> fwiw, probably captain obvious here
 102 16:22:34 <jjmarin> clown: sure !
 103 16:22:40 <magpie> clown, you're listed as a project mentor for opw
 104 16:22:47 <API> it is not needed to remove the page https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/AriaAutomatedTesting
 105 16:22:56 <API> but just remove it from the list of possible opw projects
 106 16:23:06 <clown> magpie, yes, I know.  I listed myself.  Way back when...
 107 16:23:18 <API> magpie, and he was a mentor, on previous cycle
 108 16:23:20 <clown> thanks jjmarin
 109 16:23:28 <API> but he doesn't have time this one
 110 16:23:42 <API> magpie, are you proposing to removing him from the list of possible mentors?
 111 16:23:58 <API> can be an option to avoid pings, and negative answers
 112 16:24:02 * clown wants to be removed to the time being.
 113 16:24:13 <magpie> maybe but you andj joanie are listed too
 114 16:24:17 * clown *for the time being.
 115 16:24:52 <API> in any case, that is just a detail, as jjmarin volunteered to update the wiki
 116 16:25:03 <API> lets give him the possibility to use common sense
 117 16:25:13 <joanie> :)
 118 16:25:13 <magpie> it might give people false hopes but it depends whether the current cycle ideas are listed i think that other page is just a 'who's who' thing
 119 16:25:13 <API> and update it as he thinks make sense
 120 16:25:24 <API> so having said so, moving?
 121 16:25:27 <joanie> moving
 122 16:25:45 <API> #topic The focus-tracking deprecations
 123 16:25:48 <API> joanie?
 124 16:25:53 <joanie> me?
 125 16:25:55 <API> I think that this is your potic
 126 16:25:56 <API> *topic
 127 16:26:00 <joanie> I thought you were going to discuss it
 128 16:26:07 <joanie> point to the firefox bug, etc.
 129 16:26:13 <clown> sounds like a hot potato.
 130 16:26:15 <joanie> I can info what you did, said, etc. if you'd like
 131 16:26:20 <API> well, but as you were the one dealing with alex surkov
 132 16:26:23 <magpie> wait
 133 16:26:29 * joanie pulls up the bug
 134 16:26:47 <magpie> jasper mentioned that he might be ok with an a11y project for g-s a while ago
 135 16:26:53 <magpie> only in passing mind
 136 16:26:59 * joanie waits
 137 16:27:32 <API> as said before, the available a11y related projects that can suit for an opw
 138 16:27:35 <API> and the ui settings
 139 16:27:36 <magpie> but maybe worth checking with him
 140 16:27:46 <API> for that someone from the design team would be better
 141 16:27:47 <API> but ok
 142 16:27:50 <joanie> I thought we changed topics?
 143 16:28:01 <API> #action API will ping jasper
 144 16:28:09 <magpie> cool sounds good!
 145 16:28:12 <API> yes, this is the reason Im trying to solve this comment soon
 146 16:28:14 <API> and over
 147 16:28:19 <API> so joanie now your turn
 148 16:28:20 <API> for sure
 149 16:28:28 * magpie would like someone to have the ui lot
 150 16:28:42 <joanie> so.... moving on for real now?
 151 16:28:48 <magpie> yep
 152 16:28:53 <joanie> thanks
 153 16:28:56 <joanie> anyhooo
 154 16:29:33 <joanie> #info Given that the focus tracker stuff from atk and focus: method are being deprecated, Joanie had a chat with Alex Surkov.
 155 16:29:51 <joanie> #info He filed a bug and provided a patch https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935567
 156 16:29:51 <tota11y> 04Bug 935567: normal, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW , stop calling atk_focus_tracker_notify when handling focus
 157 16:29:57 * clown looks
 158 16:30:24 <joanie> #info Trev Saunders, who is one of the Mozilla a11y developers asked a question to which Piñeiro provided a detailed reply
 159 16:30:35 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935567#c5
 160 16:30:35 <tota11y> 04Bug 935567: normal, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW , stop calling atk_focus_tracker_notify when handling focus
 161 16:31:10 <joanie> #info As questions like Trev's come up, and possibly as we file the bugs against other toolkits and apps, that comment 5 might serve as a good guide.
 162 16:31:44 <joanie> #info i.e. Perhaps we should include some of that content in the opening report and/or point to it as questions are asked of us.
 163 16:31:57 <joanie> (why reinvent the excellent wheel API provided?)
 164 16:31:59 * API still thinks that the gnome bugzilla has enough info
 165 16:32:11 <joanie> API, well, apparently not for Trev
 166 16:32:12 <joanie> ;)
 167 16:32:31 <API> yeah, he wanted a summary, instead of reading the email
 168 16:32:32 <joanie> if we don't need that content, great
 169 16:32:43 <joanie> but we live in a tl;dr world
 170 16:32:44 <API> what surprises me is the apparently
 171 16:32:52 <API> fact that alex surkov didn't know about that
 172 16:33:03 <API> those deprecations were agreed on a hackfest with him
 173 16:33:04 <joanie> Mozilla code is huge
 174 16:33:08 <joanie> oh
 175 16:33:10 * API shrughs
 176 16:33:12 <joanie> huh
 177 16:33:13 <joanie> dunno
 178 16:33:19 * joanie shrugs too
 179 16:33:21 <API> in any case, yes, that seems all
 180 16:33:29 <API> so questions, comments, thoughts?
 181 16:33:42 <joanie> #info With respect to Orca, joanie is slowly but surely doing the switch over to no longer listen for focus: events
 182 16:34:06 <joanie> #info It's taking forever, and users are finding occasional bugs, but mostly it's progressing nicely.
 183 16:34:19 <jjmarin> +1
 184 16:34:23 <joanie> #info With only one (so far) gtk+ bug needing to be fixed.
 185 16:34:37 <joanie> lemme grab that bug
 186 16:34:39 <joanie> then I'll be done
 187 16:34:55 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711397
 188 16:34:55 <tota11y> 04Bug 711397: normal, Normal, ---, gtk-bugs, UNCONFIRMED, object:state-changed:focused event missing the first time a GtkComboBox gains focus
 189 16:35:00 <joanie> now I think I'm done
 190 16:35:02 <joanie> thanks!
 191 16:35:12 <clown> is an "active descendant" situation relevant to this discussion? (Is still wrapping his head around all these emails/bugzillas).
 192 16:35:28 <joanie> yes clown it is relevant
 193 16:35:35 <joanie> but perhaps beyond the scope of this meeting??
 194 16:35:42 <joanie> we can chat later in #a11y though
 195 16:36:02 <clown> sure.  there were lots of edits to the UAIG in the last two weeks, some of which had to do with focus.
 196 16:36:21 <clown> active descendant was one of them — but that's for another place and time.
 197 16:36:24 <clown> thanks joanie
 198 16:36:36 <API> focus is a tricky thing when more stuff gets in the mixture
 199 16:36:51 <API> clown, anything else?
 200 16:37:13 <clown> actually, focus on gnome is probably the simplest.  On windows — sheesh.
 201 16:37:19 <clown> nope nothing else.
 202 16:37:20 <joanie> :)
 203 16:37:31 <joanie> and in mac, everything is a group and it's all good
 204 16:37:32 <joanie> ;)
 205 16:37:37 <API> #topic Progress towards 3.12
 206 16:37:58 <API> #info Focus deprecations are also part of 3.12 work, see previous section for more info
 207 16:38:16 <API> #info Piñeiro sent a email just today to gnome-shell list about keyboard navigation
 208 16:38:32 <API> #info although the plan was proposing that as a feature, I concluded that would be strange
 209 16:38:46 <API> #info to propose a feature related with gnome-shell, without talking with them first
 210 16:39:05 <magpie> that was the email i was referring to before i went to the phone by the way
 211 16:39:11 <API> k
 212 16:39:20 <API> and no more updates from my side
 213 16:39:24 <API> anyone else?
 214 16:39:32 <magpie> yes
 215 16:39:38 <API> mgorse, any update about async API + event emission with more info proposal?
 216 16:40:43 <mgorse> #info mgorse has been working on being able to cache properties in a way that's more flexible. WIll send an email to the list this week with a proposed API
 217 16:40:59 <API> ok
 218 16:41:06 <API> in any case, as you said on your initial email
 219 16:41:16 <API> that is part of the solution, but it would be also good to check
 220 16:41:33 <API> the addition of async calls
 221 16:41:39 <API> in any case, lets go step by step
 222 16:41:45 <API> mgorse, thanks for the work
 223 16:42:11 <magpie> #info mclasen filed a bug about implementing the scaling from wayland into mutter and I think this will be a good idea for the magnifier. global.get_window_actors().forEach(function(w) { w.scale_x = w.scale_y = 2.0; }) seems to improve things but doesn't include the status bars. Perhaps it cou;d be used for caret tracking view
 224 16:42:29 <magpie> not sure.
 225 16:42:45 <magpie> but still would like to follow that one up.
 226 16:42:56 <API> k
 227 16:42:59 <API> anyone else?
 228 16:43:05 <magpie> #info mousetweaks is still undecided
 229 16:43:18 <API> ah true, I have another info
 230 16:43:36 <API> #info API has an action item about sending emails to resume conversations
 231 16:43:49 <magpie> not sure what to do about that so i am just looking into testing it for the time being
 232 16:44:02 <API> #info he sent some (like the mentioned keynav) but he still needs to send some more (like mousetweaks one)
 233 16:44:03 <magpie> great thanks API
 234 16:44:14 <magpie> what of your tinting work?
 235 16:44:42 <API> tinting is already implemented, the missing part is the UI, and we already talked about that
 236 16:44:45 <API> in any case,
 237 16:44:49 <API> any other comment, or moving?
 238 16:44:57 <magpie> and what are the ideas for the a11y ui?
 239 16:45:18 <API> well, my plan was info'ing about work done, not about work done
 240 16:45:27 <API> if I don't say nothing assume that I didn¡t have time to that
 241 16:45:33 <API> well, my plan was info'ing about work done, not about work *not* done
 242 16:45:43 <joanie> heh
 243 16:46:25 <API> well, it seems that there are a small silence here, and nobody talking so
 244 16:46:26 <magpie> API do the tinting ideas affect the magnifier zoom ones or is it to be implemented twice?
 245 16:46:40 <API> tinting is implemented on the magnifier
 246 16:46:46 <API> zoom is a setting
 247 16:46:50 <API> tinting is a unrelated one
 248 16:47:00 * magpie thinks the colour slider is not working as it should be at the moment
 249 16:47:17 <magpie> API there's a colour slider in zoom options dialogue
 250 16:47:43 <magpie> it's that which i think uses the function needed for the tinting
 251 16:48:09 <API> magpie, it works for me
 252 16:48:32 <clown> magpie, the colour slider is for "degrees of grey levels".  Not tinitng.
 253 16:48:33 <API> and discussing about that is out oc the scope
 254 16:48:41 <API> so I will move to next topic
 255 16:48:52 <magpie> this is 3.12 isn't it?
 256 16:49:02 <API> what I mean
 257 16:49:17 <API> is that you want to talk about the details of a feature that only fails to you
 258 16:49:23 <API> a11y-meeting is mostly informative
 259 16:49:34 <API> should be short
 260 16:49:44 <magpie> clown, thanks for clarifying. which function would be for tinting, do you remember about that?
 261 16:49:54 <API> if it is failing, open a bug
 262 16:50:11 <magpie> i did, a while ago
 263 16:50:22 <API> #topic W3C updates
 264 16:50:26 <API> clown, your turn
 265 16:50:52 <clown> magpie, there are gsettings for the rgb channels for brightness and contrast.  By setting the r, g, and b to separate values, you get tinting.  What's missing is a UI (sliders) to allow users to do this.
 266 16:51:46 <clown> #info Joseph posted to the a11y list about the last call publication of the User Agent Implementation Guide for ARIA 1.0
 267 16:51:49 <magpie> ah ok i thought the colour slider was using that too but i see what you mean now. thanks
 268 16:52:04 <clown> #info The link of that annoucement:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2013-November/msg00000.html
 269 16:52:29 <clown> #info Last week, we discovered that the test results page was private.
 270 16:52:57 <clown> #info  Joseph asked if it could be made public, and was given a postive response.
 271 16:53:04 <joanie> yay
 272 16:53:15 <clown> So, to test that:  Is this availalbe for everyone:
 273 16:53:23 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=2
 274 16:53:30 * joanie looks
 275 16:53:37 <joanie> nope
 276 16:53:42 <magpie> :-(
 277 16:53:46 * clown screams
 278 16:54:07 <joanie> the server says: W3CACL
 279 16:54:13 <joanie> (after the normal password stuff)
 280 16:54:26 <clown> #action Joseph will report that the switch to public did not work, and will request that it be made public.
 281 16:54:33 <joanie> thank you
 282 16:54:55 <clown> done, any questions about the last call document and/or procedure for making comments?
 283 16:55:14 <joanie> not yet. I need to read the email.
 284 16:55:19 <API> me too
 285 16:55:24 * clown waits.
 286 16:55:26 * clown hums
 287 16:55:30 <joanie> I didn't mean *now*
 288 16:55:33 <joanie> silly
 289 16:55:40 <joanie> I meant I will read it and if I have questions, ping you
 290 16:56:08 <jjmarin> :-)
 291 16:56:09 <joanie> five minutes til our next meeting API
 292 16:56:10 * clown silly me.
 293 16:56:14 * clown stops humming.
 294 16:56:16 <joanie> :)
 295 16:56:34 <API> #topic Marketing
 296 16:56:35 <API> jjmarin, ?
 297 16:56:47 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo has draft for the ATK entry in the wikipedia and has receive some feedback from API.
 298 16:56:55 <jjmarin> #info As suggested, it makes sense to do as well the entry for AT-SPI, to complement the ATK entry.
 299 16:57:02 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will start to write about AT-SPI and will menace mgorse to ask him for comments about AT-SPI when he has an early draft about it.
 300 16:57:10 <joanie> nice
 301 16:57:12 <jjmarin> done !
 302 16:57:17 <joanie> thanks for this work
 303 16:57:26 <API> probably it would be good to do this on a shared tool
 304 16:57:31 <API> not sure if the wiki is the best one
 305 16:57:37 <joanie> an accessible shared tool
 306 16:57:42 <mgorse> I think there's an AT-SPI entry on there, but it's probably out of date
 307 16:57:48 <magpie> menacing's always fun. good work jjmarin.
 308 16:57:49 * clown lovely mental image of jjmarin menacing mgorse
 309 16:57:53 <API> mgorse, yes is somewhat out of date
 310 16:58:28 <API> in any case, when jjmarin has that ready, we can agree on a place to make shared edits
 311 16:58:30 <jjmarin> ok, I'll take a lok for a shared tool
 312 16:58:40 <API> so, anything else, questions, etc?
 313 16:58:51 <magpie> clown, jjmarin is far too laid back to be menacing.
 314 16:59:13 <clown> uses wet noodles, does he?
 315 16:59:28 <joanie> clearly we have moved into misc time
 316 16:59:31 <API> obviously we entered misc time
 317 16:59:33 <joanie> with 30 seconds to next meeting
 318 16:59:35 <joanie> ;)
 319 16:59:37 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 320 16:59:39 <jjmarin> menace is another word for engagement :-)
 321 16:59:42 <clown> times up!
 322 16:59:52 <API> so anytihng else (short) and not scheduled to be mentioned ?
 323 17:00:15 <jjmarin> clown: remove the ARIA testing from https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/Mentors
 324 17:00:24 <magpie> wayland?
 325 17:00:27 <jjmarin> I've removed it I mean
 326 17:00:36 <clown> jjmarin:  "remove" or "I removed"?
 327 17:00:42 <clown> Oh, you just answered my question.
 328 17:00:49 <clown> thanks jjmarin
 329 17:01:06 <magpie> clown iis that the api for html5 or is there other stuff as well?
 330 17:01:34 <clown> magpie, are you talking about the UAIG?
 331 17:02:43 <magpie> maybe, I mean the w3 consulting stuff for the publication you are doing
 332 17:04:15 <API> well, it is almost 5 minutes over time
 333 17:04:18 <clown> magpie, the UAIG describes the implemenation of WAI-ARIA in various browsers and accessibility APIs.  HTML5 is not the focus, although it is mentioned a coupld of time in the document.
 334 17:04:22 <magpie> the w3c even, sorry.
 335 17:04:35 <API> and taking into account that clown answered
 336 17:04:39 <API> I will close the meeting
 337 17:04:48 <jjmarin> I guess joanie and API have to move to their next meeting :-)
 338 17:04:50 <API> magpie,  if you want the details, you just need to read the email
 339 17:04:53 <API> so closing the meeting
 340 17:05:02 <API> #endmeeting