1 16:01:15 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:01:15 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Oct 17 16:01:15 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:01:15 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:01:28 <API> #topic waiting 5 minutes just in case someone appears
   5 16:06:18 <API> well, 5 minutes
   6 16:06:20 <API> and a little more
   7 16:06:25 <API> so lets move to the first real topic
   8 16:06:29 <clown> big turnout.
   9 16:06:45 <API> #topic "Boston" Summit Recap and Wayland situation
  10 16:07:21 <API> #info Last weekend (+Monday) some of the people of the a11y team were present at the "Boston" Summit, this year in Montreal
  11 16:08:12 <API> #info the main topic was Wayland, and we were being testing, debugging and triagging GNOME during the summit (and joanie even before)
  12 16:08:48 <API> #info and also talking with several developers there about Wayland situation. Specifically Matthias Clasen and Jasper
  13 16:09:05 <API> #info you can find a summary of current status and findings here:
  14 16:09:12 <API> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfests/Montreal2013
  15 16:09:19 * clown looks
  16 16:09:31 <joanie> #info Joanie has started looking into the OSK too, which is not on that page yet.
  17 16:09:36 <API> #info we plan to use that page as a base of a more general and permanent "Current situaion of wayland" page
  18 16:09:59 <API> #info fwiw, we also fixed non-wayland bugs there. But as said, Wayland was the main topic.
  19 16:10:02 <API> done
  20 16:10:21 <joanie> There's also the mailing list threads.
  21 16:10:21 <API> so, any other want to add information about the summit?
  22 16:10:34 <API> ah true
  23 16:10:38 <API> I will info them
  24 16:10:39 <joanie> since the topic includes the Wayland situation
  25 16:10:40 <joanie> thanks
  26 16:11:00 <API> #info as an outcome of those conversations, some mailing threads were started
  27 16:11:21 <clown> on the plus side, it looks like the magnifier is relying less and less on X.  They got rid of XFixesCursor.
  28 16:11:35 <API> #info One in gnome-accessibility-devel about getting the information of the current window
  29 16:11:37 <API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2013-October/msg00006.html
  30 16:12:03 <API> #info and other on wayland list, sent by mclasen, that list several of the stuff we talked in the summit
  31 16:12:09 <API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2013-October/msg00008.html
  32 16:12:34 <API> clown, yes, afaik, that is part of the plan to get the magnifier working on wayland
  33 16:12:44 <API> there are other parts of gnome-shell that are being abstracted
  34 16:13:06 <API> although mclasen mentioned that jasper says that abstracting everything would be complex/impossible/not-worthy
  35 16:13:18 <API> and fwiw, I think that I'm done with the infos now
  36 16:13:36 <API> so again
  37 16:13:40 <API> <API> so, any other want to add information about the summit?
  38 16:13:52 <joanie> Don't think so
  39 16:14:02 <joanie> other than the fact that we need to figure out if new a11y api is needed
  40 16:14:08 <joanie> and if so get that into place ASAP
  41 16:14:16 <joanie> and then get implementors to implement it
  42 16:14:17 <API> well, as I told you recently
  43 16:14:22 <API> is not only about new a11y api
  44 16:14:25 <API> but also about where
  45 16:14:32 <joanie> I know
  46 16:14:35 <API> I didn't went into all the details of last mclasen email
  47 16:14:59 <joanie> but if we don't prioritize this, things will be broken in 3.12
  48 16:15:11 <API> but he seems to suggest to add some api on wayland/mutter and not expose it through toolkits
  49 16:15:23 <API> fwiw
  50 16:15:24 <joanie> but that was before I responded with my other diea
  51 16:15:26 <joanie> idea too
  52 16:15:30 <API> taking into current state of wayland
  53 16:15:42 <clown> yes, I don't really get what mclasen is proposing in his email.
  54 16:15:53 <API> I really would like having wayland on 3.12 as beta
  55 16:16:04 <API> not only for a11y reasons
  56 16:16:23 <API> having wayland "fully ready" for 3.12 sounds really too optimistic to me
  57 16:16:29 <API> fully ready==production ready
  58 16:16:35 <API> for me current status is not even beta
  59 16:16:37 <API> is alpha
  60 16:16:49 <joanie> I agree, but we cannot count on that happening
  61 16:16:49 <API> but I fear that what Im saying is just a rant
  62 16:16:59 <joanie> we have to assume that 3.12 is the target release
  63 16:17:04 <joanie> because that is what they have said
  64 16:17:14 <joanie> and that means figuring out this stuff NOW
  65 16:17:19 <joanie> and getting the API in place NOW
  66 16:17:50 <joanie> (and it's not a rant)
  67 16:17:52 <API> well, the good news
  68 16:17:59 <API> is that mclasen seems really interested
  69 16:18:02 <API> well, mclasen and others
  70 16:18:08 <API> and they are moving stuff
  71 16:18:09 * joanie nods
  72 16:18:26 <API> so we are not alone here
  73 16:18:36 <joanie> so the action items?
  74 16:19:30 <API> ok, I can think on the following ones
  75 16:20:12 <API> #action API gnome-shell not accessible on wayland. Hacky solution avaible. Proper solution needed.
  76 16:21:02 <API> #action API: looking at tooltip related code to see the possibility of adding mouse-in, mouse-out event at the a11y toolkit
  77 16:21:23 <joanie> #action Joanie will keep testing the OSK and write up her findings, file bugs, etc.
  78 16:21:27 <API> #action everybody: being active on the threads opened
  79 16:21:42 <joanie> #action Joanie will create a non-hackfest/summit a11y in wayland page
  80 16:21:58 <joanie> mgorse: what are you working on w.r.t. wayland?
  81 16:23:26 <API> although probably off-topic on the current topic
  82 16:23:36 <API> we can't forget that other of the tasks for 3.12
  83 16:23:44 <joanie> and I removed that from the agenda
  84 16:23:46 <API> is about the async API for at-spi
  85 16:23:47 * joanie quickly adds it
  86 16:23:52 <API> well, don't need
  87 16:23:56 <API> we can talk about that here
  88 16:24:02 <API> because is affecting the future planning
  89 16:24:23 <API> anyway, mgorse seems to be away so in any case:
  90 16:24:30 * joanie puts "Other 3.12 work" on the agenda
  91 16:24:38 <joanie> and pretends it was always there
  92 16:24:39 <joanie> ;)
  93 16:25:51 <API> #info tentatively: mgorse will keep his focus on the at-spi2 async API, although he will properly reported by API and joanie about Wayland situation, discoveries and general stuff
  94 16:26:05 <API> sooo
  95 16:26:10 <API> anything else in this topic?
  96 16:26:16 <API> comments, questions, doubts?
  97 16:26:21 <joanie> fears?
  98 16:26:23 <joanie> :)
  99 16:26:33 <clown> that's a lot to do by 3.12...
 100 16:26:41 * joanie nods
 101 16:26:47 * clown apologizes for his pessimism
 102 16:27:02 <API> technically is "just 2 topics"
 103 16:27:08 <joanie> my phrase for the whole of the summit was "Wayland zomg!"
 104 16:27:10 <API> the problem is when you start to list all subtopics ;)
 105 16:27:13 <clown> with many many sub-topics.
 106 16:27:41 <API> in any case that is one of the reasons of my previous "gnome wayland should be beta for 3.12" rant
 107 16:27:46 <API> because, fwiw,
 108 16:28:03 <API> there are also a lot of subtopics there if we remove a11y from the equation
 109 16:28:04 <clown> I don't know if it matters, but there is a "window manager" insides gnome-shell's "shell-global.c", that makes exttensive use of the the XDisplay...
 110 16:28:48 <API> clown, well, one of the things that makes the move to wayland complex
 111 16:28:57 <clown> probably much too specific for this meeting.
 112 16:29:05 <API> is that they would need to support apps using still X through xwayland
 113 16:29:17 <clown> eww.
 114 16:29:20 <API> that means that wayland environment will not be "pure wayland"
 115 16:29:30 <API> in any case, probably that would not be the case for gnome-shell
 116 16:29:44 <API> and that X stuff will be abstracted, ifdefed or something
 117 16:30:38 <API> so after this rant-alike chat about wayland
 118 16:30:40 <API> moving to next topic?
 119 16:30:49 <joanie> sure
 120 16:31:13 <API> #topic W3C updates
 121 16:31:19 <API> clown?
 122 16:31:36 <API> ah wait
 123 16:31:44 * API refreshing agenda
 124 16:31:56 <API> #topic Other 3.12 work
 125 16:31:58 <clown> ok
 126 16:32:04 <API> sorry clown,
 127 16:32:21 <API> #info plans for 3.12 are similar to the list we made on last week
 128 16:32:32 <API> #info Main topics: wayland + at-spi2 async API
 129 16:33:03 <clown> and possibly at-spi2/X/wayland interactions.
 130 16:33:04 * joanie wonders about the focus deprecation stuff
 131 16:33:05 <clown> ?
 132 16:33:25 <API> #info Medium topics: already existing features (tinting+focus tracking UI)
 133 16:33:38 <clown> focus is deprecated?  What does that mean?
 134 16:33:44 <API> #info Medium topics: that to-be-proposed feature about homogeneous keyboard navigation
 135 16:33:52 <clown> ah yes, lots of activity on the tinting bugzilla.
 136 16:34:01 <API> clown, well, I include at-spi2/X/wayland interactoin on wayland
 137 16:34:09 <clown> okay. API
 138 16:34:14 <API> clown, well, not focus
 139 16:34:22 <API> is what we said last week
 140 16:34:28 <API> we had AtkObject:focus-event
 141 16:34:35 <API> and AtkObject:state-changed:focus
 142 16:34:36 <API> event
 143 16:34:39 <API> we deprecate one
 144 16:34:40 <clown> i was not here last week...
 145 16:34:46 * clown reads.
 146 16:35:01 <joanie> this is something we want to tackle early on in the cycle
 147 16:35:02 <API> and we also deprecated several utility methods related with focus tracking
 148 16:35:05 <clown> oh, right, I remember that from two weeks ago.
 149 16:35:10 <joanie> in order to deal with regressions
 150 16:35:16 <API> in any case,
 151 16:35:18 <joanie> and I don't want us to lose site of that
 152 16:35:20 * API resuming infos
 153 16:35:23 <joanie> during the Wayland zomg
 154 16:35:31 <clown> they are both ATK focus events, right?
 155 16:36:00 <clown> and somehow parallel "desktop focus" events.
 156 16:36:04 <API> #info Medium topics: several focus related methods were deprecated. Some work started on toolkits: test it
 157 16:37:14 <API> #info Medium topics: atk_text_get_string_at_offset defined at ATK. Need to start to implement and test it on the toolkits. Probably that would lead to having just one implementation on gtk/clutter, probably on pango. Follow up this, test it
 158 16:37:28 <API> #info about the previous: webkitgtk already has a implementation of that method
 159 16:37:40 <API> phone
 160 16:37:48 * clown waits
 161 16:38:13 <joanie> Regarding pango, I thought the long term goal was to no longer depend on pango.
 162 16:39:16 <API> sorry, back
 163 16:39:29 <API> joanie, well, that is the reason I added "probably"
 164 16:39:41 <API> I know that the plan was removing totally pango from webkitgtk
 165 16:39:55 <API> but I still don't know what is the real plan for gtk/clutter
 166 16:40:02 <API> depends on the week I hear one or the other
 167 16:40:05 <API> in any case
 168 16:40:19 <API> that was my mental list of main and medium topic for 3.12
 169 16:40:28 <API> did I miss something?
 170 16:40:40 <joanie> action items?
 171 16:41:02 <API> well, I think that I already have an action item about the to-be-proposed feature
 172 16:41:10 <joanie> and pinging benjamin
 173 16:41:21 <API> and I already have some action items about some subtopics of wayland
 174 16:41:24 <joanie> I'll take one for testing his patch in process
 175 16:41:33 <API> k
 176 16:41:49 <joanie> #action Joanie will test Benjamin's work-in-progress focus-related deprecation patch
 177 16:41:52 <API> #action API: check with gtk and clutter developers what are the plan towards pango
 178 16:44:06 <API> in any case
 179 16:44:21 <API> remember that we are at the beginning of the cycle
 180 16:44:25 <API> and listing all the stuff to do
 181 16:44:35 <API> I have just classified on Main and Medium topics
 182 16:44:42 <joanie> and panicking about it
 183 16:44:43 <joanie> ;)
 184 16:44:49 <API> but probably we would need to eventually do a more fine-grained prioritization
 185 16:44:56 <API> and see what can wait to 3.14
 186 16:45:00 <joanie> so we can panic in order
 187 16:45:39 <API> I will info it just in case
 188 16:45:56 <API> #info we are at the beginning of the cycle, so listing all the remaining tasks
 189 16:46:15 <clown> looks comprehensive to me API.
 190 16:46:22 <API> #info eventually we would need to do a fine-grained prioritization and see if there is something can way to 3.14
 191 16:46:26 <API> and having said so
 192 16:46:33 <API> is a good moment to change topic
 193 16:46:44 <API> #topic W3C updates
 194 16:46:49 <API> clown
 195 16:46:57 <API> ?
 196 16:47:01 <clown> #info The UAIG document is very close to going to last call status.
 197 16:47:17 <clown> #info there are a few more edits to be made, and about 20 or so tests to run.
 198 16:47:35 <clown> #info the plan is to have everything wrapped up by the end of Oct
 199 16:47:54 <clown> on a related topic...
 200 16:48:02 <clown> #info Joseph gave a talk at the jQuery accessiblity summit last week about ARIA.
 201 16:48:11 <clown> #info http://www.deque.com/deque-partners-jquery-create-accessibility-summit
 202 16:48:20 <joanie> yay!
 203 16:48:23 <joanie> how'd it go?
 204 16:48:46 <clown> it went well, although I had a cold the weekend before, and lost my voice for about the last two minutes of talk.
 205 16:48:51 <clown> turned into a croak.
 206 16:49:00 <joanie> oh dear.
 207 16:49:06 <joanie> But 'grats on the "went well" part
 208 16:49:07 <joanie> :)
 209 16:49:38 <clown> otherwise, it went okay, however, the crowd was mostly developers, and I got a feeling of:  we want to do things that work, and specs just get in the way.
 210 16:50:00 <API> clown, so most of the questions they made where in fact complains?
 211 16:50:18 <clown> although some of the webaim people reinforced some of what I was saying.
 212 16:50:37 <clown> API, the main negative aspect were comments from Hans Hillen.
 213 16:51:14 <clown> He stated that he is only concerned with screen readers, and find aria lacking at times both the spec and browsers implementation of it.
 214 16:51:25 <clown> my reply was:  I find JAWS lacking in terms of its support of ARIA.
 215 16:51:36 <joanie> heh
 216 16:51:45 <joanie> Orca's ARIA support is on my to-do list
 217 16:51:53 <joanie> it exists but needs improvement
 218 16:51:54 <API> so I guess that Hans Hillen is a JAWS developer?
 219 16:52:18 <clown> Hans is TPG (The Paciello Group) person.
 220 16:52:38 <clown> He does a lot of jQuery coding, and consutling on websites about their overall accessibility.
 221 16:52:58 <clown> It's good in the sense that you can see what works and doesn't work in "real world situtaions".
 222 16:53:02 <API> ah well, I asked that due your answer
 223 16:53:11 <API> I thought that was a kind of "burn" answer
 224 16:54:03 <clown> kind of:  I checked some of his complaints and FF (at least) was publishing the information properly to AT-SPI.  I assume it does as well on Windows.
 225 16:54:06 <API> anyway, saying publicly "I'm only concerned with screen readers" sounds somewhat odd to me
 226 16:54:11 <clown> So, how it JAWS missing It?
 227 16:54:33 <API> he was proposing that aria should just focus on it?
 228 16:54:43 <clown> almost, API.
 229 16:54:44 <API> s/aria/w3c
 230 16:55:18 <clown> More so aria, and the WAI (Web A11y Iniiative).
 231 16:55:26 <clown> the WAI is a group within the w3c.
 232 16:55:53 <clown> I invited him to post to the W3C mailing lists about any ideas he might have.
 233 16:56:04 <clown> we'll see.
 234 16:56:33 <clown> Before I forget, what is your status vis-a-vis W3C joanie?
 235 16:56:53 <joanie> Igalia is going to apply to join (like this week I hope)
 236 16:57:04 <joanie> and in the meantime I will be granted a six month IE status
 237 16:57:23 <clown> because on Tue there was the "emergency" meeting called for tomorrow that you might be interested in.
 238 16:57:24 <joanie> I've pinged folks internally to start the ball rolling on the application
 239 16:57:43 <joanie> "emergency"?
 240 16:57:56 <clown> Yeah, I endorse that question mark.
 241 16:58:11 <joanie> heh
 242 16:58:30 <clown> The "problem" is that various people in the W3C are proposing implemenation details for a11y, including ARIA.
 243 16:58:32 <joanie> without any prep time, along with the status not yet in place, I'm not sure if I should go
 244 16:58:42 <clown> But, they are doing it independently with one another.
 245 16:58:50 <joanie> great
 246 16:59:07 <clown> So, RIch is worried this might get out of hand, and called this meeting to get all of us on the same page.
 247 16:59:08 <API> implementations details?
 248 16:59:10 <joanie> and if it doesn't get solved *right now* then it's in stone?
 249 16:59:17 <joanie> ah
 250 16:59:21 <clown> The title of the meeting is:  "Accessibility Implementation Guide coordination"
 251 16:59:28 <joanie> Getting people on the same page doesn't require me.
 252 16:59:48 <clown> Sure.  I just wanted to let you know in case you were interested.
 253 16:59:49 <API> hmm, I don't see how a spec that can be implemented on so different systems
 254 16:59:54 <API> can have a implementation guide
 255 17:00:05 <joanie> clown: thanks!
 256 17:00:07 <API> unless I'm thinking on "implementation guide" as something too low level
 257 17:00:10 <clown> ?  That's what the UAIG is API.
 258 17:00:19 <joanie> I think I'll pass on this one, but start getting involved soon
 259 17:00:21 <clown> The "user agent implementation guide".
 260 17:00:45 <API> ah ok
 261 17:00:53 <API> then yes, is "high level" enough to me
 262 17:01:04 <clown> It has tables for how aria is to be implemented on each a11y platform.
 263 17:01:24 <API> clown, ok
 264 17:01:36 <API> sorry, probably Im somewhat mental-vague today
 265 17:01:49 <API> I have just came back to spain yesterday ;)
 266 17:01:51 <joanie> API needs more sleep
 267 17:01:51 <clown> problem is there are people in the HTML5 working group who are doing similar things, and are sometimes inconsistent with the ARIA guide.
 268 17:02:02 <clown> yes, he does.
 269 17:02:47 <clown> anyhow, that's all from me about w3c.
 270 17:03:00 <API> ok
 271 17:03:10 <API> so, joanie more questions?
 272 17:03:15 <joanie> nope
 273 17:03:19 <API> ok
 274 17:03:23 <API> so clown, thanks for the update
 275 17:03:30 <API> I will skip marketing because jjmaring is not here
 276 17:03:33 <clown> wlcm
 277 17:03:34 <API> *jjmarin
 278 17:03:46 <API> #topic "Miscellaneous Time"
 279 17:03:53 <API> anything not scheduled to mention?
 280 17:05:17 <API> crickets!
 281 17:05:21 <API> crickets everywhere!
 282 17:05:29 * clown *chirp*
 283 17:05:31 <API> so having said so, I will end the meeting
 284 17:05:34 <API> #endmeeting