1 16:01:18 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:01:18 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Oct 10 16:01:18 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:01:18 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:01:28 <API> #topic 5-min of margin
   5 16:06:35 <API> an now meeting time
   6 16:06:42 <API> +5
   7 16:07:05 <API> #topic "Boston" Summit
   8 16:07:27 <API> #info API is configuring the laptop in order to do the pre-event homework as agreed
   9 16:07:55 <API> #info talking with people led to conclude that ubuntu was not the best to try wayland-gnome, using f20 now
  10 16:08:03 <joanie> yay
  11 16:08:23 <API> #info building all the stack right now, so its a wip right now
  12 16:08:24 <API> done
  13 16:08:32 <API> I think that joanie have more to say about this
  14 16:08:39 <joanie> #info Joanie did much of her pre-event homework.
  15 16:08:47 <joanie> one sec
  16 16:09:02 <joanie> #info Joanie is adding her findings to https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfests/Montreal2013
  17 16:09:20 <joanie> #info Joanie also updated the Application Status Page: https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/Applications
  18 16:09:54 <joanie> #info Orca was sometimes crashing upon launch with the Wayland backend. Joanie has since fixed that with a workaround, and will have it totally fixed by today's end (hopefully).
  19 16:10:07 <joanie> #info Accerciser reliably crashes upon launch with the Wayland backend.
  20 16:10:26 <joanie> #info Joanie filed bug 709449 for that.
  21 16:10:26 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709449 major, Normal, ---, accerciser-devel, UNCONFIRMED, Accerciser segfaults when run with the wayland backend
  22 16:10:41 <joanie> #info But accerciser has some other problems and has not be worked on in quite some time.
  23 16:10:59 <joanie> #action Joanie will ping Javi about his plans w.r.t. his module.
  24 16:11:06 <joanie> I think that's it.
  25 16:11:14 <joanie> mgorse: you have a wayland environment?
  26 16:11:58 <mgorse> I'm not sure. I ran jhbuild, and the Xorg that it built doesn't want to start.
  27 16:12:13 <joanie> ugh
  28 16:12:20 <mgorse> at least not if I run startx
  29 16:12:33 <mgorse> Maybe there are instructions somewhere that I wasn't following
  30 16:12:36 <joanie> I followed the instructions on the Wayland trying it page
  31 16:12:47 <mgorse> okay; I need to look for that
  32 16:12:55 <joanie> there's a link on our team's page
  33 16:12:58 <joanie> but I'll get it
  34 16:13:08 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/TryingIt
  35 16:13:14 <joanie> mgorse: that is what I followed
  36 16:13:38 <joanie> mgorse: you might also want to read my comments on our team's page
  37 16:13:46 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfests/Montreal2013
  38 16:13:49 <joanie> in particular
  39 16:13:57 <joanie> As is already known, global keyboard shortcuts do not work when you are in an app using the Wayland backend. If using a mouse to launch or quit applications is problematic for you, consider adding a non-Wayland terminal application to your session's start-up. From within that terminal, you not only can launch apps via the terminal (i.e. to use the Wayland backend), but you can also use gnome-shell's global keyboard shortcuts.
  40 16:14:44 <API> joanie, we briefly talked about that the other day
  41 16:14:46 <joanie> oh another key thing.... the shortcuts to get back to virtual consoles are broken
  42 16:14:52 <API> our conclusion was "talk with gcampax"
  43 16:14:59 <joanie> API: I know
  44 16:15:01 <API> should I send a email to him before the event?
  45 16:15:12 <joanie> my point is, once mgorse gets a working environment
  46 16:15:12 <API> I mean, instead of just waiting for a face-to-face talk
  47 16:15:15 <joanie> it won't work for him
  48 16:15:19 <joanie> if he doesn't do the terminal trick
  49 16:15:27 <joanie> because you need the mouse otherwise
  50 16:16:04 <API> k
  51 16:17:03 <joanie> anyhoo, the terminal trick works for me because the touchpad support is poor enough that I cannot reliably click on stuff
  52 16:17:09 <joanie> due to hand tremors
  53 16:17:24 <joanie> but I think we're digressing (sorry API)
  54 16:17:33 <API> no problem
  55 16:17:36 <API> in any case
  56 16:17:45 <API> there isn't a lot of people here ;)
  57 16:17:57 <API> btw, I had an action item about sending the agenda
  58 16:17:59 <joanie> are we otherwise set for Montreal?
  59 16:18:03 <API> I will do that after the meeting
  60 16:18:27 <API> the delay will not be really important, because afaik, most of the people going to the summit were at the meeting
  61 16:18:33 <API> last week meeting I mean
  62 16:18:38 * joanie nods
  63 16:18:46 <API> apart for that, no, I don't have anything else to say about the summit
  64 16:19:00 <joanie> me neither
  65 16:19:02 <API> so unless someone wants to add something, I will move to next point
  66 16:19:50 <API> #topic GNOME 3.12 Planning
  67 16:20:07 <API> well, I think that there isn't any big changes here, compared to last week
  68 16:20:20 <API> probably just add the accerciser thing that joanie mentioned before
  69 16:20:29 <mgorse> API: Thanks for your reply on g-a-devel. I need to re-read it and reply to it.
  70 16:20:53 <joanie> yeah, that's a big 3.12er potentially
  71 16:20:54 <joanie> :)
  72 16:20:55 <API> mgorse, no problem,
  73 16:21:05 <joanie> I have another one potentially
  74 16:21:32 <API> sorry if you replied my reply, but I didn't have a proper environemnet to read emails
  75 16:21:33 * API looking
  76 16:21:35 <joanie> API from a while back you had an action item w.r.t. pinging the mousetweaks devs re wayland
  77 16:21:47 <API> hmm, yeah
  78 16:21:56 <API> but I also understood that magdalen was planning to do the same
  79 16:21:59 <joanie> and if they need to do something and it isn't done
  80 16:22:07 <joanie> then we'll have a regression
  81 16:22:24 <joanie> Magdalen is a full-time student
  82 16:22:28 <joanie> and novice developer
  83 16:22:47 <joanie> I think that if we care about Mousetweaks we need to take the lead on this
  84 16:24:51 <API> well, but she sent that email
  85 16:25:03 <joanie> what email
  86 16:25:03 <joanie> ?
  87 16:25:12 <API> I didn't want to flood Francesco inbox about the same from different people
  88 16:25:14 <joanie> anyhoo, if you would prefer, I can remove your action item
  89 16:25:35 <API> magpie sent a forward to the list
  90 16:25:37 <API> Subject:
  91 16:25:37 <API> Re: Mousetweaks & A11y meeting regrets
  92 16:25:44 <joanie> oh yeah
  93 16:25:44 <API> unfourtunately she mixed topics
  94 16:26:10 <joanie> ok, I'll remove your action item then
  95 16:26:13 <joanie> sorry for the noise
  96 16:27:44 <API> np
  97 16:28:00 <API> btw, I also have as pending the ai of gtk+2 plans
  98 16:28:06 <API> will do that asap
  99 16:28:12 <API> anything else on this topic?
 100 16:28:28 <joanie> not from me
 101 16:29:27 <API> #topic W3C updates
 102 16:29:32 <API> clown is not here
 103 16:29:34 <API> joanie, ?
 104 16:29:39 <joanie> nothing from me
 105 16:30:50 <API> ok
 106 16:30:55 <API> #topic Marketing
 107 16:31:01 <API> jjmarin is not here
 108 16:31:13 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
 109 16:31:26 <API> so anyone present want to mention something that was not scheduled?
 110 16:31:31 <API> this time it doesn't need to be short
 111 16:31:36 <joanie> heh
 112 16:31:40 <API> because the meeting was going at full speed
 113 16:31:50 <joanie> wnck in pygobject is apparently quite broken
 114 16:31:57 <joanie> today's discovery
 115 16:32:25 <API> fwiw, last time I tried to use accerciser
 116 16:32:28 <joanie> I think accerciser uses it too
 117 16:32:28 <API> failed due wnck
 118 16:32:47 <API> so I0'm wondering if accerciser breakage is related with wnck
 119 16:32:55 <joanie> my guess is yes
 120 16:33:21 <API> joanie, do you know if wnck is used by a lot of projects?
 121 16:33:27 <joanie> dunno
 122 16:33:32 <API> or pygobject bindings at least
 123 16:33:35 <joanie> and the question is: a lot of python projects
 124 16:33:37 <joanie> exactly
 125 16:33:48 <joanie> my immediate concern is Orca
 126 16:34:09 <joanie> which can (and apparently has been) using Atspi's component as a fallback
 127 16:34:15 <joanie> for what it tried to accomplish via wnck
 128 16:34:23 <joanie> so I'm removing the wnck code from orca now
 129 16:34:33 <joanie> if Orca keeps on keepin' on, then my problem is solved
 130 16:34:36 <joanie> then I'll look at accerciser
 131 16:34:47 <joanie> because the amount of breakage is getting severe
 132 16:34:58 <joanie> anyhoo.....
 133 16:35:07 <joanie> that's all my misc time stuff I think
 134 16:35:08 <joanie> :)
 135 16:35:18 <API> joanie, could you summarize it with pretty #info?
 136 16:35:23 <joanie> bah
 137 16:35:27 * joanie grumbles
 138 16:35:29 <joanie> :P
 139 16:35:30 <joanie> (sure)
 140 16:36:12 <joanie> #info Joanie discovered that with pygobject, Wnck seems a bit broken. e.g. Wnck.Screen.get_default() in Wayland causes segfaults.
 141 16:36:41 <joanie> #info And in the non-wayland world wnck_screen_get_windows_stacked() returns an empty list
 142 16:36:57 <joanie> #info Joanie discovered that Orca doesn't actually need the wnck code in question.
 143 16:37:16 <joanie> #info Joanie suspects this might be why Accerciser is segfaulting on launch with the wayland backend.
 144 16:37:39 <joanie> #action Joanie will investigate this for Accerciser and (hopefully) provide a patch so we can use Accerciser to test.
 145 16:37:45 <joanie> how's that fearless one?
 146 16:38:09 <API> good, thanks
 147 16:38:17 <API> so, anything else for misc time?
 148 16:38:39 <joanie> msanchez: can talk about webkitgtk atktext wtf perhaps? :)
 149 16:39:49 <joanie> or not
 150 16:41:39 <joanie> meeting over then?
 151 16:41:52 * joanie wants to resume her wnckectomy
 152 16:41:53 <joanie> :)
 153 16:42:34 <joanie> or is that wnckotomy
 154 16:42:40 <joanie> I want to remove wnck anyway
 155 16:43:41 <msanchez> not sure what to mention
 156 16:43:48 <joanie> up to you :)
 157 16:43:59 <msanchez> well, tehre's much stuff I believe
 158 16:44:00 <joanie> sounds like a refactor might be coming soon?
 159 16:44:01 <msanchez> but in a nutshell
 160 16:44:22 <msanchez> I'm taking a deep look, step by step, to the implementation of atk_text_get_text in WebKitGTK+
 161 16:44:32 <msanchez> it looks to me like there is much room for improvement in there
 162 16:44:47 <msanchez> I doubt it will be a "destroy everything and start over" thing
 163 16:45:00 * joanie hides the matches and gas can
 164 16:45:17 <API> msanchez, fwiw, you also mentioned yesterday something about tests in webkit2
 165 16:45:30 <msanchez> I'm more pro doing iterative steps, and at the moment that means I've analyzed the file and identified some API methods that need checking... being this one the most important one
 166 16:45:36 <msanchez> but I don't have any results yet
 167 16:45:44 <msanchez> API: ah, true
 168 16:45:51 <API> as I was busy I quickly just answered that could be a task for next webkitgtk ahckfest
 169 16:45:53 <API> *hackfest
 170 16:46:05 <msanchez> my other idea to work on a11y now is making sure we move away from testatk.c at some point, which only runs in WK1
 171 16:46:35 <msanchez> we need to at least migrate those tests to WebKit2 infrastructure, which I believe will mean to test by means of atspi, not atk
 172 16:46:49 <msanchez> besides some other issues that we will probably find along the way
 173 16:46:54 <msanchez> but again, it's too early
 174 16:47:12 <API> msanchez, so right now
 175 16:47:14 <API> on webkit2
 176 16:47:20 <API> the only atk related tests
 177 16:47:22 <msanchez> This week I landed the last patch I had pending on review and I'm now in the phase of fixing the AtkText mess
 178 16:47:28 <API> are related with checking that the plug is working?
 179 16:47:30 <msanchez> no ATK tests in WebKit2
 180 16:47:48 <msanchez> only one AtSpi test to check that the hierarchies are connected
 181 16:47:50 <msanchez> that's right
 182 16:47:53 <msanchez> + the layout tests
 183 16:48:12 <msanchez> and the fact that the bots still run WebKit1 unit tests (which check other stuff from ATK, not checked by the layout tests)
 184 16:48:37 <API> ok, so I will try to summarize this:
 185 16:48:55 <API> #info as an early idea of what we can do for webkitgtk hackfest, some  ideas are appearing
 186 16:49:06 <API> #info a) Review atk_text_get_text implementation
 187 16:49:30 <API> #info b) Look about moving atk tests to Webkit2 tests, as right now it only have one at-spi test related with the hierarchy
 188 16:49:38 <API> msanchez, is that good enough for a summary?
 189 16:49:38 <msanchez> I can propose a third one
 190 16:50:06 <API> shot
 191 16:50:24 <msanchez> what about going through the mappings in http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_state-property and check which ones are correct (so can be safely implemented now already) and which ones are not?
 192 16:50:30 <msanchez> shoot
 193 16:51:05 <API> joanie, what do you think about the third one?
 194 16:51:21 <joanie> sure
 195 16:51:29 <joanie> I hope to have reviewed all the mappings by then
 196 16:51:37 <joanie> and proposed API changes (should they be needed)
 197 16:51:44 <msanchez> olrai
 198 16:51:52 <joanie> olrai?
 199 16:52:01 <msanchez> all right
 200 16:52:03 <joanie> ah
 201 16:52:04 <API> #info msanchez also propose review  http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_state-property in order to check correctness and which needs new atk API
 202 16:52:12 <API> #info disclaimer: all that are early ideas
 203 16:52:17 <API> and having said so
 204 16:52:23 <API> I think that we can finish the meeting
 205 16:52:52 <API> #endmeeting