1 10:35:00< API> so lets start the meeting
   2 10:35:09< API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting
   3 10:35:20< API> 1.ATK Hackfest 
   4 10:35:24< API> less than a month
   5 10:35:32< API> so we need to coordinate some things
   6 10:35:40< API> don't worry people that wont be there
   7 10:35:48< API> this will not be a monotematic meeting ;)
   8 10:36:08< API> 1.1 Progress on the "Homework" 
   9 10:36:25< API> well, as you know, we have been adding bugs to our "atk 2.0" big bug:
  10 10:36:42< API> joanie and me were the main reporters
  11 10:36:58< API> btw
  12 10:37:00< API> this bug:
  13 10:37:02< API> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638537
  14 10:37:05::: jhernandez_afk is now known as jhernandez
  15 10:37:23< API> but our intention was that those bugs would be somewhat discussed before the hackfest
  16 10:37:29< API> so please, people 
  17 10:37:31< API> take a look
  18 10:37:47< API> most of those bugs are basically descirption of the problem
  19 10:37:55< API> but not patches or solution yet
  20 10:38:00< API> please take a look to them
  21 10:38:10< API> and suggest things if you have a good idea
  22 10:38:20< API> I would like to avoid arrive to the hackfest
  23 10:38:26< API> with a lot of bugs to solve
  24 10:38:27< AlanBell> o/
  25 10:38:32< joanie> And at least be thinking of them so that we don't waste time at the hackfest.
  26 10:38:39< API> but with no ideas thought
  27 10:38:46< joanie> exactly
  28 10:38:48< API> in the same way, 
  29 10:38:57< API> our idea is create a kind of agenda of the hackfest
  30 10:39:11< API> based on the bugs, and the ideas on each of one
  31 10:39:30< API> so if we have a better idea
  32 10:39:35< API> of each of one
  33 10:39:39< API> we can create a better agenda
  34 10:39:42< API> something like
  35 10:39:46< API> day 0, review general
  36 10:39:52< API> day 1, focus management day
  37 10:40:02< API> day 2, event emission-batching day
  38 10:40:06< API> etc
  39 10:40:10< joanie> and also (possibly) people's availability. I'm not sure everyone will be able to be there for the whole time.
  40 10:40:28< API> pleae note that this list is a in-the-fly list
  41 10:40:41< API> yes, it is a good point
  42 10:40:55< API> ie: today aleiva told me that he will not be on the hackfest the friday
  43 10:40:56::: nischal [~nischal@180.151.35.180] joined #a11y-meeting
  44 10:41:02< API> now I know that it would not be a good idea 
  45 10:41:08< API> somethink like
  46 10:41:15< API> day 5: screen reader day
  47 10:41:22< joanie> :-)
  48 10:41:40< API> so as joanie said, please write down arrive time and depart time
  49 10:42:03< API> any question about the homework ?
  50 10:42:15< API> aleiva, jhernandez msanchez fregl ?
  51 10:42:32< API> (as you are listed on the hackfest table)
  52 10:42:42 >>> jhernandez no prob
  53 10:42:44 >>> joanie notes that fregl mentioned he would not be able to attend this meeting after all, but will read the log and thus is hanging out.
  54 10:43:15< API> ok,  then moving on,
  55 10:43:18< API> 2.2 Hotel booking and discount 
  56 10:43:21< API> ups
  57 10:43:24< API> 1.2 Hotel booking and discount 
  58 10:43:34< API> well, for the moment just joanie booked the hotel
  59 10:43:39< API> but this week I learnt something
  60 10:43:46< API> we have a kind of discount 
  61 10:43:49< API> we == Igalia
  62 10:43:51< API> with that hotel
  63 10:44:04< API> so
  64 10:44:07< API> if you use that hotel
  65 10:44:16< joanie> (and are not joanie)
  66 10:44:20< joanie> ;-)
  67 10:44:24< API> please told to them that you are related to Igalia
  68 10:44:35< API> and want the discount
  69 10:44:45< API> anyway, we will update the wiki
  70 10:44:51< API> and send a mail, both about 1.1 and 1.2
  71 10:44:57< API> questions?
  72 10:45:10< mgorse> Is there a "need roommate" column on the wiki or something similar?
  73 10:45:44< mgorse> oh, there is
  74 10:45:44< API> hmm, not
  75 10:45:56< API> there is a need room
  76 10:46:07< API> I think that we didn't add it because this was by default
  77 10:46:25< mgorse> Actually, yeah; might be worth adding though
  78 10:46:30< joanie> gnome rules are that if you want reimbursement, you can have half
  79 10:46:34< API> although I have just realized that if by default it is a double room
  80 10:46:44< joanie> I can do that (add the column)
  81 10:48:42< joanie> so....
  82 10:49:04< joanie> mgorse: is one of the few people seeking reimbursement I think
  83 10:49:10< joanie> li would be another (I think)
  84 10:49:30< joanie> other attendees are sorting things out for themselves (e.g. aleiva and jhernandez)
  85 10:49:36< mgorse> ok
  86 10:49:42< joanie> so mgorse perhaps the thing to do is connect with li?
  87 10:49:47< mgorse> yeah
  88 10:50:09< joanie> so I'm going to pass on the column
  89 10:50:12< joanie> check with Li
  90 10:50:21< joanie> assume the foundation will reimburse you for 50%
  91 10:50:36< joanie> if you have applied for reimbursement
  92 10:50:59< joanie> make sense?
  93 10:51:16< mgorse> right
  94 10:52:34< joanie> so moving on?
  95 10:52:52< API> ok, so anything else?
  96 10:52:56< API> question, doubts?
  97 10:53:54< aleiva> nope
  98 10:54:31< API> ok, so lets move
  99 10:54:39< API> well, just 25 min about the hackfest
 100 10:54:50< API> next item
 101 10:54:54< API> 2.Testing the fix for bug 554057
 102 10:55:04< API> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554057
 103 10:55:06< API> joanie?
 104 10:55:12< API> I think that this is your point
 105 10:55:21< joanie> Yeah, it's a simple enough (looking) patch
 106 10:55:36< joanie> but I suspect Matthias and Vincent are waiting for us to bless it
 107 10:55:48< joanie> and Matthias' comment concerns me a tad
 108 10:55:55< joanie> Here is a patch that seems to fix things for me. I'd appreciate some testing of
 109 10:55:58< joanie> this; every change to the menu code is bound to break something...
 110 10:56:12< joanie> It makes me wonder if they don't have unit tests, etc.
 111 10:56:22< API> probably not
 112 10:56:26< joanie> i.e. I don't want to just test that it fixes the reported problem
 113 10:56:30< API> well, how about include this on the testingdistro?
 114 10:56:31< joanie> because as soon as we bless it 
 115 10:56:35< joanie> something will break
 116 10:56:41< joanie> and it will become "our fault"
 117 10:56:43< joanie> :-/
 118 10:56:44< API> jhernandez, I guess that you are planning to create a new spin soon, right?
 119 10:56:53< jhernandez> API no problem
 120 10:57:09< API> so that would be about add another tar gz
 121 10:57:11< jhernandez> i thougth about this when I saw the patch
 122 10:57:13< API> with gtk3
 123 10:57:19< API> joanie, gtk3, right?
 124 10:57:20< joanie> jhernandez: you rock! :-)
 125 10:57:25< joanie> API correct
 126 10:57:34< joanie> including whatever state gail is in these days
 127 10:58:02< API> jhernandez, you need someone giving you this tar.gz ?
 128 10:58:09< jhernandez> not a problem, if this patch is over the 3.0.0 release i can easily apply this patch directly in the package
 129 10:58:10< API> joanie, I don't understand this gail thing
 130 10:58:15< API> jhernandez, ok thanks
 131 10:58:47< joanie> API never mind. I'm just not sure where they are with the conversion or if it has any implications for what one needs to do when building it to ensure it is actually accessible.
 132 10:58:59< joanie> forget I said anything
 133 10:59:07< API> joanie, with the conversion you mean the move of gail to gtk?
 134 10:59:13< joanie> yeah
 135 10:59:24< joanie> you're not good at forgetting stuff are you? :-P
 136 10:59:25< API> joanie, afaik, this conversion is not on the master at all
 137 10:59:33< API> I think that they have a branch or something
 138 10:59:37< joanie> ok
 139 10:59:52 >>> API checking
 140 11:00:13< API>   remotes/origin/drop-gai
 141 11:00:17< API>   remotes/origin/drop-gail
 142 11:00:31< API> well, although I guess that this is not the best name for that branch
 143 11:00:40< API> integrate-gail would be better
 144 11:00:48< API> anyway, no more nitpicks
 145 11:00:51 >>> joanie bites her tongue
 146 11:00:54< API> summary:
 147 11:01:09< API> 1) jhernandez will include this patch on the next spint of the testing distro
 148 11:01:21< API> 2) we will be good guys, and use the testing distro, and check if
 149 11:01:27< API> the bug
 150 11:01:29< API> is solved
 151 11:01:32< joanie> AND
 152 11:01:34< API> and if other things stop
 153 11:01:35< API> to work
 154 11:01:40< joanie> that all other menus keep working
 155 11:01:44< joanie> including context menus
 156 11:01:48 >>> jhernandez updating testing distro's wiki
 157 11:01:58< prlw1> (given the suggested patch, I think you worry too much...)
 158 11:02:06< API> well, anything else? questions, doubts?
 159 11:02:17< API> prlw1, menu management is somewhat tricky
 160 11:02:21< joanie> prlw1: Given that they didn't notice the issue before makes me think otherwise
 161 11:02:29< API> being paranoid is a good thing here
 162 11:03:23< API> no questions, no doubts
 163 11:03:26< API> so moving on
 164 11:03:34< API> 3.2 planning 
 165 11:03:39< API> well, 
 166 11:03:49< API> joanie, is starting a 3.2 planning page
 167 11:04:04< API> and I didn't made my homework properly, and just made a superficial review
 168 11:04:04< joanie> pages plural :-)
 169 11:04:08< joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo
 170 11:04:09< API> so in summary
 171 11:04:13< API> work in progress
 172 11:04:22< API> joanie go on please
 173 11:04:37< joanie> Well, what I've done is try to address the problems of the 3.0 page
 174 11:04:41< joanie> which in my mind were:
 175 11:04:46< joanie> 1. Too freaking long
 176 11:04:53< joanie> 2. No one updates their status as expected
 177 11:05:00< joanie> 3. Not uniform in appearance 
 178 11:05:13< joanie> 4. Stuff on there which no one is actually addressing
 179 11:05:27< joanie> So the pages I've created are not complete
 180 11:05:30< joanie> they are examples
 181 11:05:38< joanie> including a template that should be followed
 182 11:05:47< joanie> for things which are actually being worked on
 183 11:06:00< joanie> by people who can find the time to keep their status updated
 184 11:06:21< joanie> What's important to note is that these pages are what will be shown to Board (re funding needs)
 185 11:06:28< joanie> and to the release team
 186 11:06:29< joanie> etc.
 187 11:06:44< joanie> so if team members want to take a look at what I've done so far
 188 11:06:48< joanie> give feedback,
 189 11:06:55< joanie> add their items should they have any, etc.
 190 11:06:59< joanie> it would be teh awesome
 191 11:07:18< joanie> (done)
 192 11:08:48< joanie> Well, I will add one more thing.... 
 193 11:09:04< joanie> API you had emailed the team ml about needing to fill out the full gnome community 3.2 plans
 194 11:09:10< joanie> once people fill out the 3.2 pages
 195 11:09:31< joanie> we in theory should be able to respond to the gnome 3.2 requirements/request
 196 11:11:01 >>> joanie hums a quiet tune
 197 11:11:12< API> well, I didn't have anything to add
 198 11:11:16< API> and seems that no one else
 199 11:11:20< API> questions, doubhts?
 200 11:11:22< API> doubts?
 201 11:11:47 >>> clown alibezz is in the #a11y room, may be coming here.
 202 11:12:18::: alibezz [~alibezz@189.115.230.211] joined #a11y-meeting
 203 11:12:21< joanie> yay!
 204 11:12:23< joanie> welcome alibezz 
 205 11:12:25< joanie> :-)
 206 11:12:30< joanie> perfect timing too
 207 11:12:32< alibezz> I was in the wrong chat :S
 208 11:12:34< alibezz> hahahahaha
 209 11:12:35< clown> you found us!
 210 11:12:38< alibezz> #a11y
 211 11:13:01< alibezz> how's everything going? :)
 212 11:13:20< joanie> Well, I'm guessing API is about to move to the next agenda item
 213 11:13:24< API> alibezz, well we are finishing
 214 11:13:28< joanie> 4. Women's Outreach Program update?
 215 11:13:33< API> just 15 minutes til the end
 216 11:13:37< alibezz> mmmm
 217 11:13:47< API> so yes
 218 11:13:50< API> as joanie said 
 219 11:13:51< alibezz> I was in #a11y
 220 11:13:56< API> you arrived just in time
 221 11:13:56< alibezz> and everything was so quiet
 222 11:13:57< alibezz> hahahaha
 223 11:14:00< API> alibezz, on the meeting page
 224 11:14:05< API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
 225 11:14:14< API> it is explained were we held the meeting
 226 11:14:14< alibezz> yeah. so, I'm still working on the accerciser page
 227 11:14:16< API> and the agenda
 228 11:14:21< API> so anyone could add items on it
 229 11:14:24< clown> the above looks like it's saying  we're just finishing item 4., but we are just starting it...
 230 11:14:44< API> clown, yes sorry
 231 11:14:59< API> alibezz, you arrived just in time to start that point
 232 11:15:00< clown> no problem.  different people typing at the same time...
 233 11:15:00< API> sooo
 234 11:15:12< API> alibezz, you are writing accerciser page
 235 11:15:14< alibezz> yeah the fault was mine(about the confusion between #a11y and #a11y-meeting)
 236 11:15:17< alibezz> yes
 237 11:15:18< API> some public place to see it?
 238 11:15:26< API> have you talked with bnitz ?
 239 11:15:29< alibezz> I can post it on the list right now
 240 11:15:35< alibezz> but the notation is still mixed
 241 11:15:39< alibezz> docbook and mallard
 242 11:15:54< alibezz> It's my first big experience with mallard
 243 11:16:14< alibezz> I was copying some patterns from the a11y page on gnome-docs/gnome-help/C
 244 11:16:16< joanie> alibezz: Understood. It took me a while.
 245 11:16:25< alibezz> but it's divided on topics
 246 11:16:26< bnitz> alibezz, thank you
 247 11:16:34< alibezz> and I don't know if it would be good for us
 248 11:16:47< alibezz> so I'm gonna post this mixed version on the list with my doubts ok?
 249 11:16:52< joanie> sure!
 250 11:16:56< alibezz> cool
 251 11:16:57< alibezz> =)
 252 11:17:07< bnitz> alibezz, contact me separate, I can send an early outline of the mallard docs, see if it jives with what you're doing.
 253 11:17:28< alibezz> what's your mail bnitz?
 254 11:18:34< bnitz> alibezz msg'd it to you.
 255 11:18:42< alibezz> cool
 256 11:19:10 >>> joanie is excited about all the mallardizing taking place
 257 11:19:39< alibezz> I'm sending the mixed version. I sort of organized the older sections in  "<link xref " etc etc, and each older section should be related to one of them
 258 11:19:49< alibezz> but sometimes these sections seem to be so big!
 259 11:19:57< alibezz> I'm mailing it for you all right now
 260 11:20:07< API> alibezz, no problem you are starting
 261 11:20:10< API> thanks for the update
 262 11:20:13< joanie> alibezz: When I did Orca's (now in the Orca module), in the end I started over.
 263 11:20:18< joanie> I'm not saying you should do that
 264 11:20:28< joanie> merely that this is a big task -- and a complicated one
 265 11:20:40< joanie> and maybe the thing to do is break some sections up
 266 11:21:11< bnitz> joanie you mean you wrote the mallard docs completely from scratch or rebuilt the organization and cut/paste sections from the old docs?
 267 11:21:23< joanie> I took Mallard as an opportunity to really focus on Topic Based help
 268 11:21:30< joanie> which shaunm can tell you all about
 269 11:21:36< bnitz> Yes.
 270 11:21:37< joanie> and which bnitz has an outline of
 271 11:21:39< joanie> :-)
 272 11:21:48< bnitz> That's what I'll send alibezz.
 273 11:22:00< joanie> in answer to your question, all of the above
 274 11:22:12< joanie> there were factual errors, typos, etc. in the old docs
 275 11:22:16< joanie> and it all needed reworking
 276 11:22:32< joanie> so I fired up emacs and started writing, pulling in text when appropriate
 277 11:22:38< joanie> (done)
 278 11:23:07< alibezz> :$
 279 11:23:09< alibezz> sent
 280 11:23:13< alibezz> I'm really shy hahaha
 281 11:23:15< alibezz> it's a mess
 282 11:23:22< joanie> i'm sure it's not a mess
 283 11:23:26< joanie> and thanks!
 284 11:23:30< API> np, it is still in a work in progress state
 285 11:23:36< API> and sorry to be rough
 286 11:23:38< alibezz> yeah yeah
 287 11:23:42< API> but just five minutes till the end
 288 11:23:55< API> and one item left
 289 11:24:01< API> anything else, or can we move on?
 290 11:24:12 >>> joanie sits quietly
 291 11:24:34< API> sooo
 292 11:24:37< API> moving on
 293 11:24:42< API> 5. What must one do to get all apps showing up in GNOME 3?? 
 294 11:24:51< API> joanie, added that point
 295 11:24:56< clown> what means "all apps"?
 296 11:25:02< API> but I guess that mgorse is the best one to answer that
 297 11:25:11< API> it seems that some apps are not properly registered
 298 11:25:22< API> on the at-spi2 registry
 299 11:25:23< joanie> (and which apps those are seems to vary)
 300 11:25:28< bnitz> what clown says.  What do we want to test?  Do we have a list?
 301 11:25:50< API> joanie, anyway, this is something that you realized just with fedora 15
 302 11:25:51< joanie> gedit (sometimes) gcalctool (sometimes) Fedora 15 fully updated
 303 11:26:08< API> or it is also affect our testing distro
 304 11:26:09< API> spin 2
 305 11:26:24< joanie> and that I don't know yet since I need to have a usb image
 306 11:26:43< joanie> my other systems are nice, clean, fresh and not going to be written over
 307 11:26:48< joanie> my netbook is available
 308 11:26:49< clown> +1 to usb image.
 309 11:26:58 >>> jhernandez working on this :S
 310 11:27:12< clown> jhernandez:  no pressure.
 311 11:27:14< joanie> jhernandez: (It's not a "hurry up")
 312 11:27:28< joanie> It's more of an answer to API as to why I cannot answer his question
 313 11:27:31< joanie> ;-)
 314 11:27:53< mgorse> I guess it's basically a "hurry up and look at this" for me :)
 315 11:28:05< joanie> heh
 316 11:28:11< joanie> what the agenda item is
 317 11:28:14< joanie> is a plea for help
 318 11:28:15< joanie> :-)
 319 11:28:22< joanie> is anyone else experiencing this?
 320 11:28:34< mgorse> since off-hand I don't know what's going on; need to look at it
 321 11:28:35< API> joanie, I didn't notice that on the spin 2
 322 11:28:48< API> but I didn't make a full and deep review here
 323 11:28:55< clown> joanie, what do I need to do to experience this?
 324 11:28:56< joanie> msanchez: you use fedora
 325 11:29:06 >>> clown uses F14.
 326 11:29:12< joanie> you need 15
 327 11:29:13< mgorse> I know that other people are, anyway--people were asking about it on the orca list, trying it with arch
 328 11:29:36 >>> clown starts looking for yet another machine to install f15 on...
 329 11:29:53< mgorse> jhernandez: I thought this was happening on the spin, too?
 330 11:29:55 >>> joanie pokes msanchez
 331 11:30:05< clown> the spin is suse, right?
 332 11:30:11< joanie> yup
 333 11:30:15< jhernandez> yes, is suse
 334 11:30:23< jhernandez> and is happening
 335 11:30:33< joanie> jhernandez: so you are seeing this still?
 336 11:30:38 >>> msanchez is slow reading today...
 337 11:30:40< clown> ok, so if I test the spin, I can experience this problem.
 338 11:30:44< jhernandez> i'm on this
 339 11:30:54< joanie> phew
 340 11:31:00< joanie> jhernandez: You are so becoming my hero
 341 11:31:03< jhernandez> but didn't get lot of continued focus on this
 342 11:31:04< clown> jhernandez rocks.
 343 11:31:05< joanie> it's a maddening bug
 344 11:31:10< jhernandez> :s
 345 11:31:13< msanchez> well, can't tell, since I have at-spi2 uninstalled in the system
 346 11:31:28< clown> "uninstalled"  interesting phrasing.
 347 11:31:37< msanchez> I just use it inside the jhbuild so the only apps I get exposed are those I explicitly test: accerciser, epiphany
 348 11:31:46< clown> ah...
 349 11:31:57< msanchez> other than tha I use F14
 350 11:32:10 >>> joanie thinks everyone should use bleeding edge with a11y support enabled
 351 11:32:14< joanie> ;-)
 352 11:32:27< jhernandez> I'm getting some apps by enabling the a11y-toolkit and talking with atspi with ipython
 353 11:32:55< joanie> I get some, but not all. And sometimes I get apps I don't get other times. So I think there might be a timing issue
 354 11:33:09 >>> jhernandez thinks the same
 355 11:33:30< joanie> anyway, if the bottom line is known/mysterious issue, that's good enough for me
 356 11:33:43< joanie> (as far as concluding this topic goes)
 357 11:34:24< API> and it is hard to create a bug with that
 358 11:34:29< API> if it is not clear how to reproduce it
 359 11:34:50< clown> just for clarification -- on the testing spin, is accessibility turned on automatically?
 360 11:35:05< clown> or do I have to turn it on after logging in?
 361 11:35:23< API> clown, afaik, accessibiliy is on by default
 362 11:35:24< API> jhernandez, ?
 363 11:35:30< jhernandez> i setted up this in desktop-schemas, and it is
 364 11:35:49< clown> okay, thanks.
 365 11:35:51< jhernandez> at least for mw
 366 11:35:54< jhernandez> *me
 367 11:35:58< jhernandez> :]
 368 11:36:05< clown> now I have a better idea what to look for.
 369 11:36:11< joanie> jhernandez: can we talk about the switch later?
 370 11:36:18< joanie> because that might change things
 371 11:36:41< API> well, people, 5 minutes over time
 372 11:36:42< API> so
 373 11:36:47< API> conclusions?
 374 11:36:49< API> action items?
 375 11:36:51< jhernandez> joanie: ok
 376 11:37:09< clown> jhernandez:  eta on next spin?  (again, no pressure).
 377 11:38:19< jhernandez> well, I'm basically with the spin and testing the mistery bug
 378 11:38:20::: alibezz [~alibezz@189.115.230.211] quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
 379 11:38:31< API> ok, so summary:
 380 11:38:33< clown> cool.
 381 11:38:34< jhernandez> i have connection at home today
 382 11:38:41< API> 1. there is a problem with some apps not being registered
 383 11:38:48< jhernandez> soo, i can work some time
 384 11:38:52< API> 1.1 we need to try to have a proper way to reproduce it
 385 11:38:54< jhernandez> ;)
 386 11:38:57< API> action item;
 387 11:39:04::: alibezz [~alibezz@189.115.230.211.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] joined #a11y-meeting
 388 11:39:04< API> 1. jhernandez will take a look to that
 389 11:39:10< API> on spin 2 or spin 3
 390 11:39:16< API> 2. other people can also test it
 391 11:39:20< API> fine?
 392 11:39:23 >>> joanie will do so in fedora 15
 393 11:39:24< jhernandez> okç
 394 11:39:26< joanie> this weekend
 395 11:39:57 >>> clown will test the problem on the testing spin (as much as I can).
 396 11:40:21< API> well, no time for miscellaneous time
 397 11:40:23< API> meeting over