1 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 22 08:16:04 2010
   2 
   3 Jul 22 08:16:04 *	Now talking on #a11y
   4 Jul 22 08:16:21 <joanie>	hey API
   5 Jul 22 08:16:48 *	API I know it late, you can start throwing the tomatoes
   6 Jul 22 08:17:11 <joanie>	API: Would 07:00 UTC be easier for y'all in Spain?
   7 Jul 22 08:17:27 <API>	joanie, ?¿
   8 Jul 22 08:17:39 <joanie>	is this time too earlier?
   9 Jul 22 08:17:42 <API>	ah
  10 Jul 22 08:17:43 <joanie>	too early
  11 Jul 22 08:17:44 <API>	no
  12 Jul 22 08:17:46 <API>	its fine
  13 Jul 22 08:17:52 <API>	you have more problems
  14 Jul 22 08:18:06 <joanie>	yeah, but 2 AM versus 3 AM is all the same
  15 Jul 22 08:19:52 <API>	well joanie told me that nothing relevant has happened
  16 Jul 22 08:19:57 <API>	so we can start
  17 Jul 22 08:20:34 <API>	as in the previous weekly meeting
  18 Jul 22 08:20:47 <API>	main topic is funding
  19 Jul 22 08:21:03 <API>	have you all applied to http://live.gnome.org/Travel?
  20 Jul 22 08:21:16 <API>	I mean the ones requiring funding
  21 Jul 22 08:22:00 <mgorse>	Not yet. Was going to do that today. Hoping that it isn't too late.
  22 Jul 22 08:22:50 <joanie>	mgorse: since it's just baaaaarely Thursday, you're good 
  23 Jul 22 08:23:04 <API>	the main reason of this "hurry" is in order to have a good approximation of the funding required
  24 Jul 22 08:23:11 <joanie>	end of business day East Coast would be ideal
  25 Jul 22 08:23:43 <joanie>	speaking of which KeWang did you apply to the foundation for funding for travel?
  26 Jul 22 08:23:49 <API>	anyway I will talk with Chema and German Poo these days, as German is here
  27 Jul 22 08:23:52 <API>	due guadec es
  28 Jul 22 08:23:53 <joanie>	(and do you know if Li did)
  29 Jul 22 08:24:09 *	danigm_out is now known as danigm
  30 Jul 22 08:24:21 <joanie>	API German is travel committee?
  31 Jul 22 08:24:42 <KeWang>	joanie: li and I are filling the application form right now
  32 Jul 22 08:24:50 <API>	joanie, yes afaik
  33 Jul 22 08:24:55 *	joanie laughs 
  34 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	Current Committee
  35 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	    *
  36 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	      Emily Chen
  37 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	    * Rosanna Yuen
  38 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	    *
  39 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	      Bharath Acharya
  40 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	    *
  41 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	      Chema Casanova
  42 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	    *
  43 Jul 22 08:24:59 <API>	      Germán Póo-Caamaño
  44 Jul 22 08:25:00 <joanie>	thanks KeWang :-)
  45 Jul 22 08:26:04 <joanie>	API thanks. So.... to confirm, you'll approach the Travel Committee to find out a) who all has officially applied, b) how much has been requested total, and c) how much we have total to spend?
  46 Jul 22 08:26:47 *	dpellicer (~dpellicer@14.Red-88-26-177.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #a11y
  47 Jul 22 08:26:57 <API>	joanie, yes I will try to talk with German and with Chema
  48 Jul 22 08:27:03 <joanie>	thanks much!!
  49 Jul 22 08:27:49 <API>	anyway, in theory all people noted down here
  50 Jul 22 08:27:54 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfesthttp://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010AEGIS2010
  51 Jul 22 08:27:55 <API>	ups
  52 Jul 22 08:27:57 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010
  53 Jul 22 08:28:10 <API>	as requiring funding, 
  54 Jul 22 08:28:27 <API>	should be applied already 
  55 Jul 22 08:28:30 <API>	right ;)
  56 Jul 22 08:28:32 <joanie>	indeed
  57 Jul 22 08:28:37 <joanie>	but that doesn't mean they will ahve
  58 Jul 22 08:31:04 <API>	hmm Bryen its not here
  59 Jul 22 08:31:22 <API>	as we already talked about http://live.gnome.org/Travel
  60 Jul 22 08:31:40 <API>	the other funding new is that Bryen started to talk with some
  61 Jul 22 08:31:50 <API>	distributions
  62 Jul 22 08:32:01 <API>	and they seemed interested in help with funding
  63 Jul 22 08:35:01 <API>	so people, anything else about funding in your minds?
  64 Jul 22 08:35:13 <joanie>	not really
  65 Jul 22 08:35:15 <joanie>	Other than....
  66 Jul 22 08:35:41 <joanie>	Fer's company is handling document production (braille, large print, electronic format) for the booth stuff
  67 Jul 22 08:35:47 <joanie>	so that's one less thing to worry about
  68 Jul 22 08:36:04 <joanie>	And Fer's company can come off the list of places to hit up for money ;-)
  69 Jul 22 08:37:01 <API>	ok
  70 Jul 22 08:37:33 <API>	well, then I suppose that we will have some time to the "item review"
  71 Jul 22 08:37:38 <API>	btw
  72 Jul 22 08:37:46 <joanie>	the which?
  73 Jul 22 08:37:47 <API>	most apps are migrating themselves
  74 Jul 22 08:38:00 <API>	joanie, http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3 item review
  75 Jul 22 08:38:11 <API>	most apps are migrating to gtk3.0
  76 Jul 22 08:38:12 <joanie>	thanks
  77 Jul 22 08:38:23 <API>	ie, gnome-shell and so on
  78 Jul 22 08:38:33 <API>	joanie, any plans related with orca?
  79 Jul 22 08:38:37 <joanie>	crap I guess I should look at that gtk3.0 for Orca then 
  80 Jul 22 08:38:39 <joanie>	heh
  81 Jul 22 08:38:43 <joanie>	I'll look at it
  82 Jul 22 08:38:44 <API>	or this is affected by the python bindings?
  83 Jul 22 08:38:59 <joanie>	to be honest, I don't know yet
  84 Jul 22 08:39:20 <joanie>	still trying to get the regression tests in order (in general, and for AT-SPI2 which I started looking at)
  85 Jul 22 08:39:54 <mgorse>	clown sent an email a while ago talking about having taken a look at pygi
  86 Jul 22 08:40:30 <API>	mgorse, to gnome-accessibility?
  87 Jul 22 08:40:31 *	joanie wonders if tasking aleiva with this would result in him killing her
  88 Jul 22 08:40:34 <API>	a private one?
  89 Jul 22 08:41:26 <joanie>	anyhoo, one way or another we'll look at the situation for Orca w.r.t. Gtk 3.0
  90 Jul 22 08:42:28 *	jpwhiting_ (~jeremy@97-126-244-12.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #a11y
  91 Jul 22 08:42:31 <API>	joanie, ok
  92 Jul 22 08:42:40 <API>	I guess we could write something
  93 Jul 22 08:42:47 <API>	here http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3
  94 Jul 22 08:42:52 <API>	but not sure in which section
  95 Jul 22 08:43:16 <mgorse>	API: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-June/msg00086.html
  96 Jul 22 08:43:56 <API>	mgorse, thanks
  97 Jul 22 08:44:12 <API>	In fact, I started that thread
  98 Jul 22 08:44:14 <API>	http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-June/msg00082.html
  99 Jul 22 08:44:15 <API>	:P
 100 Jul 22 08:44:27 <API>	anyway
 101 Jul 22 08:44:50 <API>	this pigi goal
 102 Jul 22 08:44:54 <API>	is just for gtk3.0?
 103 Jul 22 08:44:56 <API>	I mean
 104 Jul 22 08:45:20 <API>	if an application is still using gtk2.0 it also requires to do the migration?
 105 Jul 22 08:48:04 <API>	well it seems that nodoby knows ;)
 106 Jul 22 08:48:16 *	jpwhiting has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
 107 Jul 22 08:48:29 <API>	anyway, I bet that this also affects other apps
 108 Jul 22 08:48:33 <API>	eeejay, you here?
 109 Jul 22 08:48:43 <API>	any plans related with gtk30 and pygi?
 110 Jul 22 08:52:36 <API>	well it seems that eeejay is not here
 111 Jul 22 08:53:22 <API>	moving to other thing
 112 Jul 22 08:53:40 <API>	well after a meeting with some linux foundation
 113 Jul 22 08:53:46 <API>	Chris Hofstader
 114 Jul 22 08:53:57 <API>	has sent a mail to gnu-accessibility list
 115 Jul 22 08:54:00 <API>	http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/accessibility/2010-07/msg00048.html
 116 Jul 22 08:54:11 <API>	calling for a call to arms
 117 Jul 22 08:54:26 <API>	I have the feeling that he came to the wrong conclusion of the meeting
 118 Jul 22 08:54:43 <API>	as he pointed that the main problem is "orca performance"
 119 Jul 22 08:54:44 <joanie>	how do you mean?
 120 Jul 22 08:54:50 <API>	I know that it is related
 121 Jul 22 08:54:53 <joanie>	oh that lol
 122 Jul 22 08:55:03 <API>	but I though that the main problem was at-spi2 performance
 123 Jul 22 08:55:17 <joanie>	I think it is
 124 Jul 22 08:55:21 <joanie>	I tried it the other day
 125 Jul 22 08:55:36 <joanie>	and Orca is a considerably more performant with CORBA
 126 Jul 22 08:56:41 <API>	joanie, mgorse did you made any kind of measures?
 127 Jul 22 08:56:54 <API>	something like orca-corba vs orca-dbus?
 128 Jul 22 08:57:02 <API>	with relevant apps, 
 129 Jul 22 08:57:09 <API>	like firefox or openoffice
 130 Jul 22 08:57:11 <joanie>	nothing quantifiable yet, just observations
 131 Jul 22 08:57:22 <joanie>	It's quite slow for me in gnome panel
 132 Jul 22 08:57:28 <joanie>	like arrowing from menu item to menu item
 133 Jul 22 08:57:42 <joanie>	I am also seeing indications of possible event floods
 134 Jul 22 08:58:03 <TheMuso>	joanie: Wouldn't that be because the panel still uses CORBA and you are using dbus for at-spi?
 135 Jul 22 08:58:18 <joanie>	TheMuso: I dunno
 136 Jul 22 08:58:21 <TheMuso>	i.e 2 different IPCs being used?
 137 Jul 22 08:58:28 <joanie>	TheMuso: This is all new stuff for me
 138 Jul 22 08:58:36 <joanie>	would the same be true for gtk-demo?
 139 Jul 22 08:58:36 <TheMuso>	heh ok.
 140 Jul 22 08:58:43 <TheMuso>	Don't know.
 141 Jul 22 08:58:51 <joanie>	because gtk-demo (from Maverick) suffers the same fate
 142 Jul 22 08:59:11 <joanie>	I just started looking at this myself
 143 Jul 22 08:59:53 <TheMuso>	Well I have another interesting issue here. Terminal tabs take about a half second to switch between
 144 Jul 22 08:59:58 <joanie>	so anyway, I'm going to go over the regression tests and get them running and work with Mike to solve whatever problems are keeping them from passing
 145 Jul 22 09:00:03 <TheMuso>	And I also have accessiblity/at-spi focus issues when switching windows/panels
 146 Jul 22 09:00:15 <joanie>	TheMuso: is this with Orca running or without?
 147 Jul 22 09:00:30 <mgorse>	TheMuso: This is with at-spi-corba, right?
 148 Jul 22 09:00:31 <TheMuso>	joanie: With and without, haven't tried with at-spi not running however.
 149 Jul 22 09:00:39 <TheMuso>	mgorse: yes
 150 Jul 22 09:01:10 <TheMuso>	The latest GNOME pieces in maverick, at least so far as a11y is concerned, for corba
 151 Jul 22 09:01:47 <joanie>	Doesn't that rather complicate what we need to accomplish?
 152 Jul 22 09:02:40 <TheMuso>	Well, it was decided early on that maverick wouldn't be switching to dbus at-spi by default
 153 Jul 22 09:02:41 <API>	joanie, what do you mean?
 154 Jul 22 09:02:54 <API>	ah, about not switching
 155 Jul 22 09:03:06 <joanie>	API how do I get a pure dbus/non-corba environment
 156 Jul 22 09:03:13 <joanie>	jhbuild I guess....
 157 Jul 22 09:03:16 <joanie>	(right?)
 158 Jul 22 09:03:40 <API>	joanie, to be sincere, to avoid problems with at-spi and at-spi2 fighting
 159 Jul 22 09:03:48 <API>	I have just removed at-spi-corba
 160 Jul 22 09:04:06 <API>	and I have the at-spi-dbus I compiled on jhbuild
 161 Jul 22 09:04:16 <joanie>	API that's what I did too on one machine
 162 Jul 22 09:04:20 <API>	I had some problems having both install
 163 Jul 22 09:04:30 *	API s/install/installed
 164 Jul 22 09:04:37 <joanie>	but from what TheMuso is suggesting, since some stuff is still CORBA based, I don't have a pure environment
 165 Jul 22 09:05:06 <TheMuso>	Re the panel, I know there is a branch of the panel that has been rewritten to use dbus, but I don't know what state that is in.
 166 Jul 22 09:05:23 <TheMuso>	I know that the other GNOME folks in Ubuntu were going to consider it, but I am not sure whether it is still on the table.
 167 Jul 22 09:05:49 <API>	joanie, ah ok, me neither
 168 Jul 22 09:05:58 <API>	although I have installed at-spi2
 169 Jul 22 09:06:08 <API>	some things on my environment still uses corba
 170 Jul 22 09:06:22 <API>	joanie, about TheMuso question
 171 Jul 22 09:06:38 <API>	carlos garcia campos were working on that, I guess
 172 Jul 22 09:06:43 <API>	fer talked about it, right?
 173 Jul 22 09:06:49 <joanie>	working on?
 174 Jul 22 09:08:11 <API>	joanie, don't know
 175 Jul 22 09:08:35 <joanie>	no, I mean what are you talking about?
 176 Jul 22 09:08:40 <joanie>	working on what?
 177 Jul 22 09:08:43 <joanie>	fer talked about what?
 178 Jul 22 09:08:45 <joanie>	:-)
 179 Jul 22 09:09:02 <TheMuso>	i also have some news for you all. There is a chance that opentts will merge back into speech-dispatcher. I am meeting with Brailcom people today, since I am in Prague for an Ubuntu/Canonical sprint. So will let everyone know how things go.
 180 Jul 22 09:09:18 <joanie>	interesting....
 181 Jul 22 09:09:55 <API>	joanie, about moving the panel to dbus instead of using corba
 182 Jul 22 09:10:06 <joanie>	ahhh ok thanks
 183 Jul 22 09:10:42 <API>	well, people I think that we need to get some conclusions
 184 Jul 22 09:10:48 <joanie>	+1
 185 Jul 22 09:10:53 <API>	as were are over 10 minutes
 186 Jul 22 09:11:17 <API>	a) people use http://live.gnome.org/Travel
 187 Jul 22 09:11:30 <API>	so we can check how money is required
 188 Jul 22 09:11:40 <API>	b) Bryen is looking for alternative funding sources
 189 Jul 22 09:11:54 <API>	c) we need to check this gtk3.0 stuff, ie on orca
 190 Jul 22 09:12:05 <API>	d) we need to check pygi stuff, it is related to gtk3.0?
 191 Jul 22 09:12:11 <eeejay>	hi API
 192 Jul 22 09:12:34 <API>	e) Main problem on at-spi is still performance, but first regression tests
 193 Jul 22 09:12:37 <API>	eeejay, hi
 194 Jul 22 09:12:51 <API>	a last comment before closing the meeting?
 195 Jul 22 09:13:12 <eeejay>	API, me? no sorry :)
 196 Jul 22 09:13:24 <eeejay>	hi everyone!
 197 Jul 22 09:13:30 <joanie>	hey eeejay
 198 Jul 22 09:13:39 <eeejay>	just worked on my talk for guadec
 199 Jul 22 09:13:43 <joanie>	eeejay: did you apply for funding for AEGIS? (you still think you can come)
 200 Jul 22 09:13:53 <eeejay>	http://www.guadec.org/index.php/guadec/2010/paper/view/36#
 201 Jul 22 09:13:59 <eeejay>	joanie, no
 202 Jul 22 09:14:30 <joanie>	no to applying or no to you can't come after all?
 203 Jul 22 09:15:08 <eeejay>	joanie, both, unfortunately
 204 Jul 22 09:15:12 <joanie>	"Accessibility is all too often regarded as additional polish that is  added to an application at the end of it's development cycle."
 205 Jul 22 09:15:37 *	joanie thinks back to last boston summit
 206 Jul 22 09:16:36 <API>	eeejay, so, any plans on accerciser related to gtk3.0 and pygi?
 207 Jul 22 09:17:18 <eeejay>	API, haven't worked on accerciser on a long time. i'm handing it off to someone from oracle
 208 Jul 22 09:17:27 <eeejay>	API, so no :(
 209 Jul 22 09:17:30 <joanie>	eeejay: really???
 210 Jul 22 09:17:32 <joanie>	who?
 211 Jul 22 09:17:52 <eeejay>	joanie, brian nitz
 212 Jul 22 09:18:07 <joanie>	ah. Heard of him, don't know him
 213 Jul 22 09:18:17 <API>	ok
 214 Jul 22 09:18:31 <API>	well, 18 minutes over time
 215 Jul 22 09:18:38 <eeejay>	night!
 216 Jul 22 09:18:44 <API>	I think that we can conclude the one hour meeting now
 217 Jul 22 09:18:45 <joanie>	night eeejay
 218 Jul 22 09:18:48 <joanie>	:-)
 219 Jul 22 09:20:23 <mgorse>	Okay. Night.
 220 Jul 22 09:20:24 <joanie>	KeWang: TheMuso: mgorse: If we moved the 06:00 UTC meeting to 07:00 UTC would that work for y'all?
 221 Jul 22 09:20:57 <mgorse>	joanie: doesn't matter to me; 7 isn't less good than 6
 222 Jul 22 09:21:07 <joanie>	mgorse: that's what I told API lol
 223 Jul 22 09:21:07 <TheMuso>	Doesn't bother me, I am only in Europe this week
 224 Jul 22 09:21:46 <joanie>	KeWang: Since that would make it.... 15:00-16:00 in Beijing (right?) is that okay?
 225 Jul 22 09:22:45 <API>	as I told joanie, in my case it is not required
 226 Jul 22 09:22:58 <joanie>	API well, you're not the only one in Spain ;-)
 227 Jul 22 09:23:10 <joanie>	(though you were one of the ones I was thinking of)
 228 Jul 22 09:23:44 <joanie>	Half of the current/active GNOME a11y folks are in Spain, and API you're the only one who usually makes this meeting
 229 Jul 22 09:24:06 <joanie>	if we push it back to 09:00 Spain time, I think that would help 
 230 Jul 22 09:24:11 <joanie>	(maybe not)
 231 Jul 22 09:24:15 <joanie>	but it can't hurt
 232 Jul 22 09:24:27 <joanie>	and maybe Steve Lee could come