**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 14 16:56:29 2006 Feb 14 16:57:14 * behdad (~behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM014250035807.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 16:58:00 * joachim (~joachim@ACD4B5AF.ipt.aol.com) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 16:59:57 * luis (~louie@c-66-31-46-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:04:57 mccann: so, it's your show today :) what do you want us to look at, prefs dialog, locked screen dialog, anything else...? Feb 14 17:05:14 that sounds good Feb 14 17:05:31 does everyone here have a recent version, or do we need some screenshots? Feb 14 17:05:38 I've made some screenshots http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/ Feb 14 17:06:12 ah, cool... Feb 14 17:06:14 It would be best if everyone had a recent version tho Feb 14 17:06:24 * calum has 2.13.90 Feb 14 17:06:31 like today if possible ;) Feb 14 17:06:44 * joachim too Feb 14 17:07:15 * lmanul (~manu@82.239.58.38) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:07:23 that is fine - the only UI that should have changed since then is the doc team requested a HELP button in the prefs Feb 14 17:07:33 mccann, is there any work done on docs for this at all? Feb 14 17:07:36 yeah, I see that :) Feb 14 17:07:56 joachim: no Feb 14 17:07:59 ok Feb 14 17:08:19 was it you who requested the help button? Feb 14 17:08:24 yup Feb 14 17:08:40 cool - your help will be greatly appreciated Feb 14 17:08:48 :) Feb 14 17:08:54 ok, so shall we start with http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Screensaver%20Preferences.png ? Feb 14 17:09:03 sure Feb 14 17:10:32 so, first comment... because there's really only one "frame" in this dialog, I'm not sure we need to do the "bold title, indent the rest" thing... I'd probably have a non-bold label at the top, and align everything else with it.... Feb 14 17:10:34 * sgarrit1 (~steven@rind.silverorange.com) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:10:49 screenshots? Feb 14 17:10:50 sgarrit1: http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Screensaver%20Preferences.png Feb 14 17:11:42 I'm not sure about using the word 'session' Feb 14 17:11:49 most users don't know what that is Feb 14 17:11:50 sounds ok - there once was an Options frame Feb 14 17:11:56 joachim: yeah, I was going to get to that :) Feb 14 17:12:03 mccann: ah, I see... Feb 14 17:12:46 so since joachim brought it up, what do people think about the use of "session"... any better ideas? Feb 14 17:12:51 do we need the "Screensave" label at all? Feb 14 17:13:04 for the access key Feb 14 17:13:07 sgarrit1: well, the mnemonic makes it easy to focus the list from the keyboard, I guess... Feb 14 17:13:14 regarding session, this is relatively recent and is due to the fact that the screensaver defines idleness for the entire desktop session. I toyed with "mark as away" etc Feb 14 17:13:16 ah Feb 14 17:18:13 for example, gnome-power-manager uses the idle change signal to start counting down to its actions Feb 14 17:18:13 About "session", why not simply "computer" (that would speak to most users) ? Feb 14 17:18:13 lmanul: the technical reason is that the computer is a collection of sessions. Tho that might not be important for the UI. Feb 14 17:18:13 So, why is there both a checkbox to activate the screensaver when session is idle, and a slider to set session as idle? Feb 14 17:18:13 I've stuggled over this and would love your suggestions :) Feb 14 17:18:13 mccann: right, but no matter how the program manages things internally, "my computer is idle" is what most users will see ? Feb 14 17:18:13 why not just the slider with "never" as the far right? http://oit.uta.edu/desktop/energystar/mac_files/OS_X.1_Screen_Saver.JPG Feb 14 17:18:13 sgarrit1, the slider defines the time of inactivity after which the session is idle. The checkbox makes the screensaver go on at that point Feb 14 17:18:13 does "idle" mean anything if you don't have the screensaver activated? Feb 14 17:18:13 sgarrit1, yes Feb 14 17:18:30 * Disconnected (). **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 14 17:18:30 2006 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 14 17:19:18 2006 Feb 14 17:19:18 * Now talking on #ui-review Feb 14 17:19:18 * Topic for #ui-review is: currently reviewing http://burtonini.com/temp/sj-start-ripping.png Feb 14 17:19:18 * Topic for #ui-review set by calum at Mon Feb 13 18:13:20 2006 Feb 14 17:19:43 sgarrit1, in other words there are two distinct things: idleness and screensaver-activation Feb 14 17:19:53 (sorry, my connection is flaky today) Feb 14 17:20:24 mccann: Ah, I see. Feb 14 17:20:32 i'm not saying it isn't confusing Feb 14 17:20:43 but pretty much unavoidable Feb 14 17:20:50 couldn't "Activate screensaver when session is idle" be "Enable screensaver"? Feb 14 17:21:36 perhaps Feb 14 17:21:44 * nsh (~shmyrev@194.88.210.254) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:21:47 What else is this "idle session" state used for ? Away state in IM ? Feb 14 17:22:12 i think I tried to make it clear that the activation would occur after the time of the slider above Feb 14 17:22:24 yeah, that does make sense. Feb 14 17:22:25 nsh: http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Screensaver%20Preferences.png Feb 14 17:22:27 lmanul, yes that and power management, etc Feb 14 17:22:48 hrmm... wouldn't really think to look in screensaver prefs to set that, to be honest... Feb 14 17:22:55 calum: agreed Feb 14 17:22:57 although I dunno where I would look :) Feb 14 17:22:58 there isn't a power management prefs tool is there? Feb 14 17:22:59 not sure where else though... Feb 14 17:23:08 Session preferences ? Feb 14 17:23:09 power-management, maybe - yeah. Feb 14 17:23:11 there really isn't a good place that I know of Feb 14 17:23:15 lmanul: yes, maybe... Feb 14 17:23:33 sgarrit1, but on the other hand would you look there for the time to set your screensaver? Feb 14 17:23:45 mccann: yeah, true. Feb 14 17:23:49 have it in both, like on OS X Feb 14 17:24:21 joachim, i've considered that ... let me make it even more complicated for a sec: Feb 14 17:24:40 joachim, you'd probably want to have different timeouts for on-ac and on-battery :) Feb 14 17:24:55 yeah, but does that have anything to do with screensaver? Feb 14 17:25:23 definitely starting to smell of power management there... Feb 14 17:25:27 or you could consider the Session prefs setting as 'Master', and Scrensaver can take that or set its own Feb 14 17:26:43 Is there a plan to make a global "Power saving" preference ? Feb 14 17:27:17 this is all the more complicated by the fact that it has been decreed that gnome-power-manager will not be part of 2.14 Feb 14 17:27:37 so we're looking at a stopgap solution until 2.16 Feb 14 17:28:09 keep in mind that DPMS has been moved from g-s to g-p-m too Feb 14 17:28:27 DPMS? Feb 14 17:28:34 display power management Feb 14 17:28:41 ah Feb 14 17:30:30 i'm very much open to suggestions Feb 14 17:31:30 I think a global "Enable screensaver" checkbox at the top that activated/deactivated the list/preview area might make sense. Feb 14 17:31:40 lmanul, sorry i missed your message - the global power saving stuff is in gnome-power-manager Feb 14 17:32:29 global checkbox at top -- but the slider still has to be active for other things, no? Feb 14 17:32:39 sgarrit1, i had that for a while. Here's why that doesn't work: even when screensaver is not enabled the user must be able to lock the screen and choose a screensaver theme for it. Feb 14 17:32:50 oh yeah that too Feb 14 17:32:57 screensaver theme for locking? Feb 14 17:33:07 when you lock the screen, you get the saver Feb 14 17:33:16 mccann: well I mean on the long term, will g-p-m come with some kind of global "Energy Saver" Preference ? Feb 14 17:33:48 there are two separate activation modes: idle activation and user-lock activation Feb 14 17:33:53 The User Guide says 'To lock your screen correctly, you must have a screensaver enabled.' but it's lying Feb 14 17:34:08 that is why i tried to label the checkbox the way it is now Feb 14 17:34:19 if there's no screensaver enabled/chosen, lock screens should probably just blank the screen... Feb 14 17:34:34 ok, being a bit creative here..... Feb 14 17:34:52 "After [---------------*----------] minutes:" Feb 14 17:34:58 " [] Activate the SS" Feb 14 17:35:02 " [] Lock the screen" Feb 14 17:35:44 replace "after" with "If the computer is idle for:" Feb 14 17:36:35 Looks good ! Feb 14 17:37:37 might be nice if the timeout was shown in a spinbox rather than just as a label, so you could type in a value manually, too... Feb 14 17:37:50 i.e. [------------*---------] [20] minutes Feb 14 17:38:21 * calum hates having to do precision dragging :) Feb 14 17:38:42 yeah, I had this exact experience yesterday Feb 14 17:39:02 joachim, the trick i think is to make it clear that the slider sets a policy for when the session goes into an idle state Feb 14 17:39:19 I like joachim's double checkbox suggetion. Feb 14 17:39:28 maybe the label could imply the idle time set too... Feb 14 17:39:34 one thing I liked in xscreensaver is that each screensaver had its own checkbox, so you could choose among which screensavers "random" could choose Feb 14 17:39:58 "Set session as idle after: " [---------------*----------] minutes: Feb 14 17:39:58 " [] Activate the SS" Feb 14 17:39:58 " [] Lock the screen" Feb 14 17:40:41 lmanul, me too Feb 14 17:40:59 Is that policy something that really afffects users? Feb 14 17:41:00 lmanul, that is one of the things I hate about the xscreensaver dialog Feb 14 17:41:02 I think the simplicity of this setup is worth losing that ability. Feb 14 17:41:08 joachim's layout seemed more direct to me (only one sentence) Feb 14 17:41:25 sgarrit1: I don't agree :) Feb 14 17:42:24 "Go to idle mode after [-----------------] [20] minutes" Feb 14 17:43:50 * JDay (~jason@c-24-21-161-9.hsd1.or.comcast.net) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:44:15 sgarrit1, I think your controls suggestion might work Feb 14 17:44:34 it is very similar to what we have now tho Feb 14 17:44:41 s/session/computer/ Feb 14 17:44:57 mccann: yes - it is similar. Feb 14 17:45:02 calum: what do you think about the terms session vs. computer? Feb 14 17:45:07 does the list box get disabled when the checkbox is off? Feb 14 17:45:40 mccann: I think it would be better not to use session if possible, yes... Feb 14 17:45:58 sgarrit1, no because it allows you to have a theme enabled when manually activating the screensaver Feb 14 17:46:09 mccann: dunno if "computer" is necessarily right either though :) Feb 14 17:46:27 system? GNOME? Feb 14 17:46:32 maybe just "Mark as idle after [---] minutes"? Then you don't need session or computer :) Feb 14 17:46:40 neat Feb 14 17:46:48 mccann: oh yeah... Feb 14 17:46:59 calum: the only other similar concept i could find in other software is the away status in AIM etc Feb 14 17:47:17 do IM apps respect this setting? Feb 14 17:47:19 yeah... they tend to use "mark", but you really are marking something there... you're not really doing that here... Feb 14 17:47:44 joachim, i hope that they will Feb 14 17:48:07 but logically the user might want an IM to have a lower threshold Feb 14 17:48:25 joachim, why? Feb 14 17:48:52 because I want GAIM to say I am busy/away if I've not touched GAIM for 5 mins. But I'm on my computer doing some work Feb 14 17:49:14 joachim wrote "Enter idle mode after...", is that better than "mark" ? Feb 14 17:49:18 * sivang (sivan@193.28.45.42) has joined #ui-review Feb 14 17:49:33 Hi sivang :) Feb 14 17:49:39 joachim, that is somewhat different Feb 14 17:49:48 joachim, because the converse will never be true Feb 14 17:49:59 hey lmanul :-) I would have ended here on way or another eventually i guess working on the backup spec. Feb 14 17:50:00 joachim, when the session is idle you will never be present on IM Feb 14 17:50:04 true Feb 14 17:50:08 I've gotta run... Feb 14 17:50:08 * sgarrit1 (~steven@rind.silverorange.com) has left #ui-review Feb 14 17:50:15 that means one bounds the other Feb 14 17:50:34 looking at GAIM now, it has its own setting for idleness Feb 14 17:50:40 joachim, yes the session idle is the upper bound Feb 14 17:50:48 lmanul: "modes" are never very nice :) Feb 14 17:51:13 agreed Feb 14 17:51:26 * joachim takes back modes Feb 14 17:51:32 right... Feb 14 17:54:25 so, let's just recap here (because I'm trying to do about three things at once, and may have missed something)... are we basically happy with sgarrit1's last suggestion, which is bascially similar to what's there now, but we're just trying to agree on a better wording? Feb 14 17:54:48 calum: that was my understanding too Feb 14 17:55:17 yup Feb 14 17:55:18 ok ... and we'd prefer not to use "session" or "mode" :) Feb 14 17:56:49 * calum gets back into synonym mode^H^H^H creation mindset Feb 14 17:58:37 it is tough because we don't have an integration of the user into the desktop - so we can't use typical presence idioms Feb 14 17:58:46 yeah... ah feck it, let's move on to the next screenshot and come back to it if we have time :) Feb 14 17:58:56 we're agreed the basic functionality is right, wording can always be improved later... Feb 14 17:59:03 righto Feb 14 17:59:05 checkboxes on the SS list is a no then? Feb 14 17:59:24 ah ok, forgot about that bit :) Feb 14 17:59:25 joachim, correct. There is a bug open for removing items from the list tho Feb 14 17:59:43 what about settings button for the savers? Feb 14 18:00:18 joachim, no plans for that at the moment for both technical and ui reasons Feb 14 18:00:39 i get lots of hate for that one Feb 14 18:00:46 does random mode cycle, or just pick one and stick? Feb 14 18:01:22 random selects randomly from all themes and will cycle after a certain time (gconf setting) Feb 14 18:02:10 hmm, I can see us getting hit with the 'GNOME keeps removing features' stick Feb 14 18:03:02 heh Feb 14 18:03:17 well, UI reviews aren't really about features, so let's not worry about that for now :) Feb 14 18:04:45 shall we move on to the unlock dialogs, in order of complexity...? starting with http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Unlock.png ... Feb 14 18:04:52 sure Feb 14 18:04:58 * calum is hoping this part won't take long :) Feb 14 18:05:42 * calum is scared to see "johnny" and "logan" in such close proximity :) Feb 14 18:06:07 is "logan" the host name ? the login ? Feb 14 18:06:14 calum: why? Feb 14 18:06:15 good question Feb 14 18:06:33 logan is the username Feb 14 18:06:39 mccann: he's an Irish singer, holds the record for the most Eurovision Song Contest victories... probably means nothing to you over there :) Feb 14 18:06:51 ha :) Feb 14 18:06:57 so much so that they had to get Father Ted to do the song... Feb 14 18:07:11 hehe :) Feb 14 18:07:16 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047136/ Feb 14 18:08:45 only other comment would be that it might be nice to have an icon on the Unlock button... maybe GTK_STOCK_AUTHENTICATE or whatever it's called...? Feb 14 18:09:07 lmanul: do you think that's a problem? any suggestion for improvement? Feb 14 18:09:17 Do we really need the full name *and* the login ? Feb 14 18:09:27 calum: that's fine. We used to have it. mpt recommended it be removed. Feb 14 18:09:33 mccann: oh, ok :) Feb 14 18:09:43 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenSaver Feb 14 18:10:05 mccann: well, I know he's a "no icons on buttons" advocate... so am I, but I'd rather have all or none to be honest... Feb 14 18:10:27 fine by me Feb 14 18:10:32 * lmanul prefers all ! :) Feb 14 18:10:47 would hostname be useful somewhere? I quite often want to walk up and find out the name of a machine, if it's locked like this I wouldn't be able to... Feb 14 18:11:00 oh, and the icon is still on the cancel because I couldn't figure out how to remove it from a stock button Feb 14 18:11:01 hmm, yeah Feb 14 18:11:17 mccann: yeah, think you'd have to fake your own Feb 14 18:11:49 calum, we used to have that too. I think it got removed in the mpt reworking. You can see it on some of the screenshots on the ubuntu wiki Feb 14 18:12:08 mccann: wouldn't gtk_button_set_image work, with a NULL argument ? Anyway Feb 14 18:12:08 calum: where would you put the computer name? Feb 14 18:12:31 What about just below the full name, prefixed by "on" ? Feb 14 18:12:39 is it preferrable to remove the icon from cancel or add icons to all? Feb 14 18:12:40 (where the login is now) Feb 14 18:13:08 or even beside it... "logan on hurdygurdy" Feb 14 18:13:27 calum: ooh, i like that Feb 14 18:13:35 yeah Feb 14 18:13:42 mccann: no, I think people expect an icon on Cancel, so I'd prefer all... but I don't want to invoke the wrath of mpt either :) Feb 14 18:14:17 calum: OK Feb 14 18:16:03 ok, I only have about 5 mins left, so can we skip straight to http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Unlock-Switch-Logout.png since it has all the buttons on it? :) Feb 14 18:16:13 yup Feb 14 18:16:21 when would you see this instead of the earlier one? Feb 14 18:17:20 unless you enable-logout in gconf you'd never see it Feb 14 18:17:27 this is mostly for sysadmins with public systems Feb 14 18:17:47 in case people leave systems locked Feb 14 18:18:59 i'd make the password the same width as on the earlier one, give it space each side Feb 14 18:19:44 I guess my only comment would be icons again... we have a logout one, but dunno what you'd use for Switch User. This is where mpt's opinion of button icons is probably more pertinent :) Feb 14 18:20:13 I have an icon for switch user :) Feb 14 18:20:25 heh, cool :) Feb 14 18:20:32 calum : icons also make it wider :( Feb 14 18:20:36 yeah :/ Feb 14 18:20:54 so perhaps we really should just leave them off everywhere, except for Cancel Feb 14 18:20:56 4 buttons seems a lot but I don't see what to suggest Feb 14 18:20:59 http://www.manucornet.net/GNOME/code/logout_dialog/switch.png Feb 14 18:21:08 unless you move "log out" to the "switch user" dialog Feb 14 18:21:37 hm no, scratch that Feb 14 18:24:46 ok, can we have a quick look at http://acs.pha.jhu.edu/~mccannwj/GNOME/ui-review/Screenshot-Switch.png before I go then... after that you can talk about whatever you like :) Feb 14 18:24:59 yup Feb 14 18:25:36 not sure I have any comments here actually, looks good to me... Feb 14 18:25:53 Why are there "..." after "Switch user" ? Feb 14 18:25:54 anyone feel free to mail screensaver-list@gnome to continue discussion Feb 14 18:26:05 the left-aligned text makes it look different to the others Feb 14 18:26:09 lmanul: oh yeah... good point Feb 14 18:26:23 :) Feb 14 18:26:43 lmanul: I guess it's because the new user needs to input their password, so technically speaking it's probably correct... Feb 14 18:26:52 Ah, right Feb 14 18:26:53 the ellipsis was from mpt - i think because many times this sends you to gdm for more input Feb 14 18:27:36 yeah... I agree it's probably right, does just look slightly wrong at first :) Feb 14 18:29:11 remind me what we concluded for the cancel icon? Feb 14 18:29:38 mccann: I think we should just leave things as they are wrt button icons Feb 14 18:29:46 so, Cancel icon yes, other buttons no\ Feb 14 18:29:54 gotcha Feb 14 18:31:26 right, I think I'm done then... feel free to carry on :) Feb 14 18:31:41 mccann: do you want me to send you a copy of the log, or do you have everything? Feb 14 18:31:42 thanks a lot calum Feb 14 18:31:42 Gotta go too, bye everyone :) Feb 14 18:32:00 bye Feb 14 18:32:09 * lmanul (~manu@82.239.58.38) has left #ui-review Feb 14 18:32:35 calum: i have a copy thanks Feb 14 18:32:40 cool... Feb 14 18:33:16 does anyone want me to stick around? Feb 14 18:35:03 can I ask you a few questions about docs? Feb 14 18:35:09 hey, sure Feb 14 18:35:13 * You are now known as calAWAY Feb 14 18:35:31 just one sec, brb Feb 14 18:37:56 ok, back sorry Feb 14 18:38:00 np Feb 14 18:38:32 today's UI changes we discussed - that's for 2.14? Feb 14 18:39:52 yeah, technically I'm not supposed to but since this button was there up until recently i think it is ok Feb 14 18:40:13 could you send me a screenshot when it's done? Feb 14 18:40:15 ironically, i removed the button not long ago because it was unused Feb 14 18:40:32 oh, i thought you meant the help button Feb 14 18:40:54 right, the other changes we discussed today I'm going to try to get done also Feb 14 18:40:57 ok Feb 14 18:41:03 but there's no huge changes anyway Feb 14 18:41:09 at least from the user's POV Feb 14 18:41:23 i've delayed making a 2.13.92 release for this reason Feb 14 18:41:33 what apps use the idle time setting? Feb 14 18:41:35 I'd like to try to get the changes in today or tomorrow Feb 14 18:41:51 currently, gnome-power-manager relies on it Feb 14 18:42:03 what's that? Feb 14 18:42:09 and gnome-xchat or something uses it for away status Feb 14 18:42:21 gnome-power-manager? Feb 14 18:42:37 it's a daemon? Feb 14 18:42:43 so not something the user knows exists Feb 14 18:43:04 it has a preferences dialog tho Feb 14 18:43:31 you mean a capplet? Feb 14 18:43:35 yes Feb 14 18:43:39 http://www.gnome.org/projects/gnome-power-manager/ Feb 14 18:44:14 I'm using a VM of 2.13.90, and not all the capplets are in Feb 14 18:45:05 hmm something else that's not in the user guide Feb 14 18:45:27 well it was recently decided that g-p-m would not be an official part of 2.14 tho Feb 14 18:45:35 does the gpm prefs dialog have help? Feb 14 18:45:40 yes Feb 14 18:45:51 oh. in that case it's not for the UG Feb 14 18:46:11 ok Feb 14 18:46:28 is gnome-xchat in 2.14? Feb 14 18:46:32 * Disconnected (). **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 14 18:46:32 2006