16:06:24 <joanie> #startmeeting
16:06:24 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep 19 16:06:24 2013 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:24 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:30 <joanie> #topic GSoC updates
16:06:36 <joanie> floor is yours magpie2 and clown
16:06:37 <magpie2> clown?
16:06:46 <magpie2> wanna go first?
16:07:00 <clown> sure
16:07:43 <clown> #info Magdalen has made progress on the UI additions for the universal access panel for the system settings (gnome-control-center).
16:08:00 <clown> actually, that's all I have.  You can probably expand on that, magpie2
16:08:12 <magpie2> #action Magdalen will file a bug about the ui
16:08:35 <clown> and attach you glade file?
16:08:39 <clown> *your
16:08:48 <clown> good idea
16:08:55 <joanie> we should probably (constructively) mention the current state w.r.t. that last-minute change
16:09:08 <magpie2> #info A. Day said it would be unlikely my proposal for the ui would be accepted into 3.10 but he seemed to like the look. Magdalen hopes to find more out when filing the bug
16:09:31 <magpie2> minute change joanie?
16:09:32 <clown> yes, mark it as "work in progress".
16:09:38 <joanie> ?
16:09:57 <clown> was that "?" for me, joanie?
16:10:01 <joanie> sorry
16:10:03 <joanie> still waking up
16:10:12 <joanie> magpie2: what did you mean by "minute change"?
16:10:36 <jjmarin> aday told me he thinks we can do it for 3.12
16:11:07 <magpie2> #info A. Day was asking about the GSettings and what they are for. He wanted to speak to joanie about that Magdalen suggests Joseph could talk to him as well to help clarify that
16:11:43 <magpie2> same jjmarin but i am not sure why 3.11 is not a good bet
16:11:48 <clown> sure.  I can probably pirate some things from an email I sent to the mentors explaining what the different modes meant.
16:11:56 <joanie> magpie2: 3.11 is 3.12 :)
16:11:56 <magpie2> unless bigger changes might be in the subtext
16:12:04 <joanie> just like 3.9 is 3.10
16:12:12 <clown> 3.11 is the beta release of 3.12
16:12:12 <magpie2> oh
16:12:20 <joanie> odd numbers mean unstable. Once it's blessed for stable it becomes even
16:12:21 <clown> not the official release
16:12:22 <magpie2> cool thanks for clarifying
16:12:47 <magpie2> my ui doesn't work yet
16:12:56 <joanie> magpie2: it wasn't expected to btw :)
16:13:03 <clown> not expected magpie2
16:13:10 * clown there's an echo in here
16:13:24 <magpie2> but between clown and joanie's advice the only reason for that is time rather than anything
16:13:31 <magpie2> sorry let me info that
16:13:39 <clown> right.  time is our enemy
16:13:46 * clown my, how pithy
16:15:38 * joanie is waiting for the info
16:16:20 <magpie2> #info Joseph told Magdalen she has delivered the coding deliverables by completing a suggested glade ui prototype but Magdalen is going to try to get it working with the GSettings since Joanie and Joseph have given good guidance to help get that done. However she is started at university this week and has a lot of time constraints so it may have to be fully working after GSoC in case the time runs out.
16:16:28 <magpie2> was that clear?
16:16:31 <magpie2> i'm not sure
16:16:34 * joanie reads
16:16:44 <magpie2> anyway I better summerise the code of the project?
16:16:45 <joanie> yes it is clear to me
16:16:50 <magpie2> the deliverable codes
16:16:59 <magpie2> with links?
16:17:05 <joanie> you could
16:17:23 <magpie2> #info the deliverable codes completed thus far are the following links
16:17:43 <magpie2> anyone who wants to help this bit feel free i'm starting with the pyatspi
16:18:36 <magpie2> #link https://git.gnome.org/browse/pyatspi2/commit/?id=820712e21fb3797cd48c01f94499f502567ee73d
16:18:54 <magpie2> #link https://git.gnome.org/browse/pyatspi2/commit/?id=192638bfd0eeb446c14d5be6247fc474ee664ba0
16:19:13 <magpie2> #link https://git.gnome.org/browse/pyatspi2/commit/?id=2c38851a74cf3fe6a634449f6f681d8758d0ea7a
16:19:36 <magpie2> thee's a bug in review too
16:19:59 <clown> magpie2:  were those commits from a patch attached to some bug in bugzilla?
16:20:20 <clown> or, from patches
16:20:22 <magpie2> yes
16:20:36 <magpie2> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707693
16:20:36 <tota11y> 04Bug 707693: normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, caret.py example needs to be improved.
16:20:51 <clown> for GSoC code submission, I advise taking those patches, and tar'ing them all up and submitting the tarball to GSoC.
16:21:01 * clown looks at the reqirements
16:21:04 <magpie2> ok thank you clown
16:21:21 <clown> "All students will need to add files, which can include source files, a single .diff file, multiple .diff files, binary files, etc., to their project in Melange. "
16:21:22 <magpie2> can you action that to save time while i grab the rest of the links?
16:21:32 <clown> sure.
16:22:23 <clown> #action for GSoC code submission, Magdalen will take all of her submitted patches that were committed from gnome's bugzilla, tar them up, and sent the tarball to GSoC.
16:22:28 <mgorse> magpie2: I'm sorry; I forgot to review that patch. Thanks for the reminder.
16:22:55 <clown> did that action make sense to everyone?
16:23:02 <joanie> I think so clown
16:23:12 <joanie> I can only speak for myself however :)
16:23:22 <clown> GSoC says "diff" files, but I think patches are essentially diff files.
16:23:35 <magpie2> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705652
16:23:35 <tota11y> 04Bug 705652: normal, Normal, ---, gsettings-desktop-schemas-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Add GSettings for focus and caret tracking in GNOME Shell
16:24:02 <clown> #link GSoC code submission guidelines:  http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2013/codeguidelines
16:24:51 <magpie2> #link  https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/commit/js/ui/magnifier.js?id=9d8f30f955fcd15a509a19310c0e946f13eca3a6
16:25:26 <magpie2> Should I include misc contributions that happen during summer?
16:25:41 <clown> joanie, do you think there are any intellectual property issues here — giving the code to Google?
16:25:55 <joanie> I do not clown
16:25:58 <magpie2> i have another g-s patch for their jhbuild examples i did but have still to patch
16:26:02 <joanie> it's within the license
16:26:04 <clown> i guess it's publically avaialbe under GPL.
16:26:09 <joanie> exactly
16:26:10 <clown> *available
16:26:21 <magpie2> clown they allow students the rights the their code i think
16:26:42 <magpie2> it still must be free and open source
16:26:43 <clown> sure, but what rights to they get by getting a copy?
16:26:54 <magpie2> I can get a link for that if needed
16:26:55 <clown> right.  It is goverend by the GPL.
16:26:56 <joanie> magpie2: what about the big fix (the tracking implementation bug)
16:27:02 <joanie> you but the small ones
16:27:06 <joanie> s/but/put/
16:27:08 <magpie2> oh
16:27:12 <joanie> silly
16:27:13 <joanie> :)
16:27:18 <magpie2> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/commit/js/ui/magnifier.js?id=9d8f30f955fcd15a509a19310c0e946f13eca3a6
16:27:20 <clown> don't want to forget that one  ;-)
16:27:21 <magpie2> gsettings too
16:27:32 <magpie2> sorry
16:27:37 <magpie2> #link https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/commit/js/ui/magnifier.js?id=9d8f30f955fcd15a509a19310c0e946f13eca3a6
16:27:40 <clown> and the one your are going to do for the UI
16:28:02 <clown> the glade file patch.
16:28:04 <magpie2> i have not even put that on github :/
16:28:23 <clown> ok
16:28:27 <magpie2> #info the code for the ui is not up on github or git.gnome
16:28:31 <clown> you will get to it, I imagine.
16:28:57 <magpie2> #action Magdalen will do the github today in case the ui is not fully woking before mo
16:29:04 <magpie2> mon for the bug
16:29:35 <magpie2> #info correction: in case the ui is not fully working for the gnome-control-center ui bug Magdalen is filing today
16:30:01 <magpie2> sorry i should have put that as one info
16:30:12 * magpie2 getting the gsettings patch
16:30:21 <clown> magpie2:  even if the code isn't working, it's worthwhile putting the new ui in the bug as a indication of the direction we are going, for the designers to have a look at.
16:30:45 <magpie2> i was just going to put the picture until such a time i got it working?
16:31:06 <clown> you could that too.  Or, a picture and the .ui file
16:31:13 <magpie2> becuase the code is not complete underneith but it does'nt affect the look
16:31:35 <clown> Yes, but the designers might want to play with it in glade.
16:31:47 <clown> they can't do that with a picture.
16:32:17 <clown> but, it's up to you.  that's just my advice.
16:32:37 <magpie2> #action Magdalen will maybe add the code link to my github and say that it is not complete and upload the pictures for today and try to get a patch ready before mon
16:32:50 <magpie2> /my/her
16:34:10 * joanie waits to see if there is anything else
16:34:16 <magpie2> #agreed we made a very good timeline for gsoc and the mentors should be proud
16:34:26 <magpie2> gsettings
16:34:57 <magpie2> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gsettings-desktop-schemas/commit/schemas?id=3e7aaf2f0fe2f0c98a01cbdad0a74bc079390f89
16:35:01 <magpie2> and bug
16:35:12 <magpie2> and a couple others but they can wait if we are running over
16:35:37 <magpie2> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705652
16:35:37 <tota11y> 04Bug 705652: normal, Normal, ---, gsettings-desktop-schemas-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Add GSettings for focus and caret tracking in GNOME Shell
16:36:29 <magpie2> #action Magdalen will also put the ui snaps on the wiki and make sure all work completed during the GSoC is properly referenced to make things easier
16:36:38 <magpie2> clown
16:36:42 <clown> yes?
16:36:45 <magpie2> you actually make a good point though
16:36:55 * clown wonders never cease
16:37:13 <magpie2> will it be a problem for google that you initially wrote the tracker code and i adapted it or are they expecting stuff like that?
16:38:14 <magpie2> it's too late now to think about that i guess but i am suddenly fretting that could make it fail?
16:38:28 <clown> well, Jasper made changes too, didn't he?
16:38:36 <magpie2> i mean this is open source work right
16:38:46 <clown> I don't think that matters.  You did work on it.  Your ideas are in there.
16:38:48 <magpie2> nothing is from scratch for most projects
16:39:17 <magpie2> ok yeah common sense tells me you are right
16:39:31 <magpie2> oh
16:39:33 <magpie2> 1
16:39:48 <clown> 1?
16:41:25 * clown waiting for magpie2
16:41:31 <magpie2> #action Magdalen is to finish a 'final GSoC' blog contribution to the planet feed and she will base that around the ui work and include the things she learned from Joseph and Joanie recently, in that post so it explains about about the accessibility control center ui and how that should work.
16:42:43 <magpie2> #info Magdalen thinks the Admin, Mentors and the G-S team (especially Jasper) have been really, very amazing and she is delighted to have been able to learn from their expertise this summer.
16:42:53 <magpie2> it was an honour :-)
16:43:13 <joanie> soooo... I know we're going long, but I have one other thing
16:43:15 <joanie> 16:08:55 <@joanie> we should probably (constructively) mention the current state w.r.t. that last-minute change
16:43:24 <magpie2> yes
16:43:46 <magpie2> i was going to get to that but then I got carried away with the happy stuff
16:43:47 <joanie> mgorse: any updates on the freeze problem?
16:44:07 <magpie2> let me get the links
16:44:13 <magpie2> it's important
16:44:20 <clown> #info there was a commit to the magnifier code that disabled the initialization of atspi on the condition that the magnifier was not used.
16:44:22 <mgorse> If you mean whether I have a patch finished and sent to the release-team, then, unfortunately, no
16:44:56 <clown> #info  apparently, the desktop freezes for 30 sec when atspi is running if the Display control panel is accessed.
16:45:09 * mgorse waits
16:45:11 <magpie2> mgorse: one of the things I want to do this week is help you with that actually
16:45:29 <joanie> magpie2: let's first get the status in the meeting minutes
16:45:35 <clown> #info there was much discussion about whether this commt should be reverted, while mgorse is working on fixing atspi.
16:45:45 <magpie2> I sort of left thinking things have been resolved but the patch is not reverted i see
16:45:48 <clown> that's all I've got in terms of my understanding.  mgorse?
16:46:20 <magpie2> ok
16:47:19 <mgorse> #info gnome-shell can deadlock if a process calls it via D-Bus while gnome-shell is trying to make an AT-SPI call to that other process via D-Bus
16:48:23 <magpie2> #info Magdalen found out that atspi had a bug yesterday after finding the default atspi initialisatin had been removed yesterday and told joanie and mgorse. Mike is infoing his progress
16:48:47 <mgorse> #info it is exasperated by a hack made to AT-SPI a while ago that makes it not time out on a call for up to 15 seconds fo ran app that immediately started
16:49:44 <magpie2> #info Magdalen Jasper Mike, Joseph, Giovanni and Joanie discussed this yesterday
16:49:49 <mgorse> #info mgorse is working on a patch that makes AT-SPI calls enter a main loop, rather than just dispatching D-Bus messages, and thinks that this is safe, but any change of that sort seems to have a bit of risk
16:50:13 <mgorse> okay; done, I think
16:50:21 <magpie2> mgorse
16:50:51 <magpie2> can you please tell us your action for it and more about the 'risk'
16:51:14 <mgorse> I plan on making a freeze break request once I have a patch working
16:51:26 <mgorse> mostly I'm worried that there is some case that I hadn't thought of
16:51:42 <mgorse> like the one that Giovani found was something that I hadn't thought about
16:51:48 <magpie2> #info if the patch is not fixed there is a danger the feature will not be working in 3.10 as planned.
16:52:04 <clown> "the feature"  which feature?
16:52:26 <mgorse> The other option, I think, would be to change those timeout values. They are configurable. But that would just reduce the delay, not eliminate it
16:52:28 <magpie2> mgorse: we will worry about the current problem and if another one crops up deal with that but i can help you there as much as you need
16:52:59 <magpie2> even if it's just dumping stuff and running tests while you look at code to speed things up
16:53:08 <mgorse> Anyway, yeah, I plan on submitting a freeze break request, so I thin kit's up to the release team whether it goes in
16:53:26 <magpie2> my ui stuff will take but 10 mins so im free
16:54:24 <magpie2> did gnome-shell say what their plan was?
16:54:48 <magpie2> maybe we should ask for a Jasper comment?
16:54:55 <joanie> magpie2: not during this meeting
16:55:02 <joanie> it sounds like things are moving forward
16:55:13 <joanie> and all we can do is progress one step at a time
16:55:17 <magpie2> i was worried about the suggestion to remove the tracker
16:55:18 <joanie> mgorse: thanks for looking into this!
16:55:35 <clown> yes, mgorse, thanks.
16:55:42 <joanie> okkkkkaaaaaay
16:55:48 <magpie2> i think that would be a terrible thing
16:55:52 <joanie> 50 minutes of gsoc updates
16:55:57 <joanie> in a 60 minute meeting ;)
16:55:59 <magpie2> oh
16:56:01 <magpie2> sorry
16:56:03 <joanie> mind you, it needed to be said
16:56:06 <joanie> all of it
16:56:07 <magpie2> yes it did
16:56:11 <joanie> but I think now is time to move on
16:56:22 <joanie> #topic Other 3.10 updates/issues
16:56:31 <magpie2> sorry about that i just sort of left yesterday thinking it was sorted and that was clearly wrong
16:56:41 <magpie2> me me me
16:56:44 <joanie> #info In general we seem to have caught all the accessibility-related regressions
16:56:51 <magpie2> ok
16:56:56 * magpie2 listening
16:56:57 <joanie> (modulo the atspi freeze in gnome-shell)
16:57:24 <joanie> #info But Frederic Peters caught a gui issue https://people.gnome.org/~fpeters/a11y-zoom-prefs.png
16:57:33 <joanie> #action Joanie will investigate this today
16:57:42 <joanie> another 3.10 stuff?
16:57:47 * joanie yields the floor
16:57:52 <magpie2> i have a one
16:58:06 <joanie> magpie2: ok
16:59:52 <joanie> magpie2: ok == what is it?
16:59:53 <magpie2> #info Magdalen has been rethinking her post-gsoc TODO goals and following the conversations yesterday she would like to try to learn something from mgorse and try to make sure all the atspi codes that need to be in javascript for gnome-shell are working as they should and asks for Mike's thought on that possibility
16:59:55 <joanie> oh
16:59:57 <joanie> thanks
16:59:58 <joanie> :)
17:00:07 <joanie> magpie2: that is not a 3.10 issue
17:00:21 <magpie2> it is until atspi is fixed isn't it?
17:00:25 <magpie2> maybe not sorry
17:00:31 <magpie2> what issue is it?
17:00:32 <joanie> magpie2: that was discussed last topic
17:00:35 <jjmarin> I think the online account of the gnome-initial-setup is still no keybnav, if you don't press Next the first time, you won't move of this screen
17:00:43 <magpie2> no i mean the methods
17:00:45 <joanie> until we have mgorse's patch, we need to wait
17:00:48 <magpie2> the full api
17:01:08 <joanie> jjmarin: can you verify that and file it?
17:01:23 <joanie> having tested with a fully updated jhbuld environment
17:01:28 <magpie2> i want to make sure the API is checked
17:01:36 <jjmarin> joanie: sure. I'm doing now :-)
17:01:40 <joanie> thanks!!
17:02:09 <magpie2> i can help with that too if needed jjmarin
17:02:20 <joanie> magpie2: you need to focus on your work
17:02:27 <joanie> jjmarin can do this
17:02:30 <joanie> and/or I can
17:02:40 <jjmarin> magpie2: yes, I can do it :-)
17:02:48 <jjmarin> thanks anyway :-)
17:02:58 <magpie2> ok i will finish my timetable
17:03:13 <magpie2> should we move on?
17:03:16 <joanie> so, other "issues" (aka bugs that were introduced this cycle that are not yet fixed)
17:03:27 <joanie> magpie2: when we are ready to move on, I'll move us on
17:03:29 <mgorse> Probably. The ones we don't know about :)
17:03:35 <joanie> mgorse: hehe
17:03:36 <magpie2> only the GSoC atpsi one that i know of
17:03:51 <magpie2> oh also people need to have an up to date
17:04:06 <joanie> magpie2: is that an "issue"
17:04:06 <magpie2> atspi because it's a runtime dependencyy
17:04:34 <joanie> anyhoo, I'm going to move on
17:04:36 <magpie2> so some people with atspi that is older will see the bug i was suffering around GUADEC times with running it
17:04:46 <joanie> #topic "Boston" Summit and the possibility of Wayland Accessibility Hacking
17:05:33 <joanie> #info If you are planning on coming to the summit, you need to add yourself to the wiki page: https://wiki.gnome.org/Montreal2013/Participants
17:05:52 <joanie> if you need sponsorship, you need to fill out the table https://wiki.gnome.org/Montreal2013/travelsponsorship
17:05:58 <magpie2> ok I can't afford that
17:05:58 <joanie> #info if you need sponsorship, you need to fill out the table https://wiki.gnome.org/Montreal2013/travelsponsorship
17:06:07 <joanie> magpie2: you are not doing wayland a11y hacking
17:06:33 <joanie> anything else specific to this topic that needs to be stated?
17:06:36 <magpie2> after the gsoc i want to for click lock
17:06:55 <magpie2> and i'm going to talk to ged and francesco about mousetweaks
17:07:00 <joanie> sure
17:07:05 <joanie> sounds like a plan :)
17:07:12 <joanie> #topic W3C updates
17:07:14 <joanie> clown: ?
17:07:26 <clown> info'ing...
17:08:16 <clown> #info No news specifically from W3C, but in ARIA-related news, Joseph will giving a talk at the jQuery accessibility summit Oct 10-11
17:08:22 <joanie> yay!
17:08:23 <clown> #link http://www.deque.com/deque-partners-jquery-create-accessibility-summit
17:08:31 <clown> done.
17:08:37 <joanie> I actually have something too ;)
17:08:56 <joanie> #info Joanie has requested, and appears very like to get, "Invited Expert" status
17:09:06 <clown> cool!
17:09:12 <magpie2> that's awesome
17:09:20 <jjmarin> sound good !!!
17:09:30 <mgorse> For what committee? That should be useful, anyhow
17:09:34 <joanie> #info Joanie will be looking at current "mappings" for HTML and ARIA with the aim of adding new API to ATK/AT-SPI2 where needed for better a11y support
17:09:37 <magpie2> what happens to univited experts? :)
17:09:46 <joanie> they are ignored
17:09:51 <joanie> by the W3C
17:09:54 <joanie> and problems result
17:09:58 <joanie> ;)
17:10:15 <joanie> clown: I expect you and I will be doing some coordination
17:10:21 <magpie2> lol well they have you and joseph now so it'll be ok
17:10:23 <joanie> once I get going
17:10:28 <clown> perhaps.  I don't actually work on HTML (yet).
17:10:36 <joanie> but you do on ARIA
17:10:42 <joanie> and when we have new roles, states, etc.
17:10:55 <joanie> that will mean changes to W3C documents
17:10:57 <joanie> and mappings
17:11:01 <joanie> and best practices
17:11:02 <joanie> etc.
17:11:03 <clown> yes.  Will you be focussing on HTML5?
17:11:07 <joanie> also the verification tests
17:11:11 <joanie> I will be focusing on it all
17:11:22 <clown> your head will explode!  :-)
17:11:26 <joanie> nah
17:11:32 <joanie> ok, so moving on
17:11:36 <magpie2> I'm going to be asking you two a lot of questions about this later on
17:11:38 <joanie> #topic Marketing
17:11:56 <jjmarin> #info The release notes for GNOME 3.10 are done, and now it is in the translation phase
17:12:01 <joanie> yay!
17:12:04 <magpie2> wohoo
17:12:06 <jjmarin> #info Unfortunately, the magnifier's focus and caret tracking notes have been dropped because the lack of GUI
17:12:12 <jjmarin> :/
17:12:16 <magpie2> boo
17:12:18 <jjmarin> #info The accessibility bits has been consolidated with the rest of the notes, instead of having a separated section
17:12:29 <jjmarin> you can check the release notes in https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.10/
17:12:31 <magpie2> they weren't in the g-s ones already
17:12:36 <jjmarin> gnome / 3.10
17:13:01 <jjmarin> that's all
17:13:06 <magpie2> is it a subrelease when it's 3.9.91?
17:13:08 <joanie> great thanks!
17:13:25 <jjmarin> no, just 3.10
17:13:32 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
17:13:34 <jjmarin> :-)
17:13:44 <magpie2> they sent the release note with the subreleases though
17:13:44 <joanie> we're over the meeting end time
17:13:49 <joanie> anything that must be said?
17:13:53 <magpie2> yes
17:14:10 <magpie2> the mgorse work isn't that 3.10 issue rather than a GSoC one?
17:14:19 <joanie> magpie2: it's both
17:14:22 <joanie> so why repeat it?
17:14:35 <clown> jjmarin, I'm being asked for a username/password.
17:14:48 <jjmarin> gnome / 3.10
17:14:56 <clown> "ask release-team@gnome.org for the password"
17:14:59 <clown> oh, thanks.
17:15:05 <jjmarin> it's a secret
17:15:07 <jjmarin> :)
17:15:10 <magpie2> well i'm not sure it was put in the right spot but that's ok
17:15:31 <joanie> magpie2: the topic even began with "Other"
17:15:35 <clown> not working, jjmarin
17:15:40 <joanie> anyhooo
17:15:42 <joanie> #endmeeting