**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 9 08:04:51 2010 Dec 09 08:04:51 * Now talking on #a11y Dec 09 08:04:51 * Topic for #a11y is: Visit us at http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility | New weekly meeting times to be announced soon | See our latest meeting summary at http://bit.ly/ctMqVI | Follow us on Twitter: @gnome_a11y | Subscribe to our mailing list at http://is.gd/bmcWR Dec 09 08:04:51 * Topic for #a11y set by Bryen at Sat Apr 10 00:34:07 2010 Dec 09 08:05:39 * joanie waves to API Dec 09 08:05:41 hi, sorry I'm late Dec 09 08:05:48 no worries Dec 09 08:05:50 I have missed something? Dec 09 08:05:55 not here Dec 09 08:05:57 ;-) Dec 09 08:06:44 ok Dec 09 08:06:52 well, Dec 09 08:07:01 lets start this thing Dec 09 08:07:11 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20101202#Agenda_for_the_next_meeting Dec 09 08:07:28 point 1 is Roadmap Dec 09 08:07:30 * shaunm (~shaunm@74.83.23.171) has joined #a11y Dec 09 08:07:33 joanie? Dec 09 08:07:48 Don't yet have the "cost" doc done BUT Dec 09 08:08:05 as you may have seen, Brian Cameon had posted the Board minutes from 11 Nov Dec 09 08:08:13 and that was the meeting I attended Dec 09 08:08:35 And so Dave Neary asked for both the Orca team roadmap and the A11y team roadmap Dec 09 08:08:54 and then Brian Cameron pointed this out to me privately Dec 09 08:09:07 and yadda yadda yadda I've posted the roadmaps on the Foundation list Dec 09 08:09:31 and tossed out a couple of items in response to Dave's question for possible funded areas Dec 09 08:09:48 API I think you're on Foundation list, but I CC'ed you on that stuff anyway Dec 09 08:10:10 and in my most recent message have a 'I'll defer to Piņeiro' line Dec 09 08:10:11 joanie, yes Im on foundation list Dec 09 08:10:13 :-) Dec 09 08:10:24 so when you get caught up on all your email.... :-) Dec 09 08:10:41 and I'll try to get caught up on a needs-funding document Dec 09 08:11:43 well, I already said that Dec 09 08:11:58 with that mail I learned that NVDA Dec 09 08:12:04 is somewhat more popular for funding Dec 09 08:12:09 joanie, this is true? Dec 09 08:12:13 you said that? Dec 09 08:12:18 I don't know if it is or not Dec 09 08:12:18 or it is just a Dave Neary feeling? Dec 09 08:12:23 Dave Neary said that Dec 09 08:12:26 * API looking Dec 09 08:12:28 I think it's a feeling Dec 09 08:12:31 yeah I saw that Dec 09 08:12:41 but having said that Dec 09 08:12:45 it's a reasonable feeling Dec 09 08:12:50 "Based on the Orca (or even a more general a11y) roadmap, it may be Dec 09 08:12:50 possible to get some funding from companies or associations interested Dec 09 08:12:50 in seeing Orca get better (although a lot of the associations seem to be Dec 09 08:12:50 focussing more on NVDA because it works on Windows)" Dec 09 08:12:52 Windows is more popular Dec 09 08:12:58 exactly Dec 09 08:13:09 please note that it is a C&P from Dave Neary mail Dec 09 08:13:11 BUT I am not aware of blindness associations focusing on them Dec 09 08:13:32 I think they're focused more on JAWS and Window-Eyes and training and the like Dec 09 08:13:35 them means Windows+NVDA? Dec 09 08:13:42 correct Dec 09 08:13:48 ok, thanks Dec 09 08:13:55 The two big donory things are ACB and NFB Dec 09 08:13:55 anyway this is somewhat offttopic Dec 09 08:14:03 NFB might be giving to them. But I don't know Dec 09 08:14:09 * joanie nods Dec 09 08:14:10 anything else about the roadmap? Dec 09 08:14:18 * joanie shakes her head Dec 09 08:14:22 * joanie gets dizzy Dec 09 08:15:46 ok, so in summary, we have a roadmap Dec 09 08:16:05 although the un-funded section is still "work in progress", right? Dec 09 08:16:21 yup Dec 09 08:17:07 ok, people here Dec 09 08:17:18 any question/advice/complain Dec 09 08:17:30 about the roadmap/un-funded? Dec 09 08:18:14 * joanie starts to complain and thinks the better of it Dec 09 08:18:15 ;-) Dec 09 08:18:42 All kidding aside, would be nice to have Caribou Dec 09 08:19:04 especially since I raised it as a needs-funding candidate to the Foundation List Dec 09 08:19:17 but other than that I'm ready to move on if everyone else is Dec 09 08:19:39 * API looking again the roadmap thing Dec 09 08:20:13 * API Caribou in the same state Dec 09 08:20:26 eeejay, we are lucky? are you here? Dec 09 08:22:13 probably he didn't understand my broken grammar Dec 09 08:22:22 eeejay, are we lucky? are you here? Dec 09 08:22:29 * joanie understands it Dec 09 08:25:53 I'm guessing eeejay is sleeping Dec 09 08:26:03 ok, so lets move to next point Dec 09 08:26:10 lets jump over point 2 Dec 09 08:26:17 and directly to point 3 Dec 09 08:26:22 yay! Dec 09 08:26:23 :-) Dec 09 08:26:35 Updating the GNOME Desktop Accessibility Guide Dec 09 08:26:35 * Missing ATs Dec 09 08:26:35 * Moving to Mallard Dec 09 08:26:35 I see shaunm is here, but I'm betting he's sleeping Dec 09 08:26:52 and no one responded to my comment on the list Dec 09 08:27:09 but holy cow our docs need updating, mallardizing, increasing Dec 09 08:27:35 AND if I include what I've done for Orca into the gnome desktop a11y guide, it will not fit in with the rest Dec 09 08:27:38 :-( Dec 09 08:28:04 so I don't know if everyone else is quietly writing updated docs in mallard format suitable for inclusion in the desktop guide Dec 09 08:28:09 but I think we need to do *something* Dec 09 08:29:00 * joanie yields the floor Dec 09 08:29:41 hmm, strange because shaunm joined the channel about 20 minutes ago Dec 09 08:29:50 oh Dec 09 08:29:54 maybe an autojoin Dec 09 08:30:47 I'm here Dec 09 08:30:56 shaunm: !!! :-) Dec 09 08:30:58 hey Dec 09 08:31:05 Hi Dec 09 08:31:12 did you see my email from the other day? Dec 09 08:31:21 about the GNOME desktop a11y guide? Dec 09 08:31:55 * slee (~chatzilla@stevelee.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #a11y Dec 09 08:32:25 joanie: yes, sorry, in my stack of things to reply to Dec 09 08:32:37 awesome and no worries Dec 09 08:32:37 (hackfest kind of screwed up my already screwed up inbox) Dec 09 08:32:46 gotcha Dec 09 08:33:20 I still have to finish writing some pages but then it's like.... what do I do with them because of the existing state of our docs Dec 09 08:33:27 so when you get to inbox:0 ish Dec 09 08:33:45 if we could chat about that, it would be super Dec 09 08:33:55 so quick answer: I *think* I'd like to do away with having a separate a11y guide Dec 09 08:34:16 and roll information about the basic a11y features directly into the main desktop help Dec 09 08:34:30 right Dec 09 08:34:38 but what about the Orca guide Dec 09 08:34:42 and Accerciser Dec 09 08:34:43 and Dots Dec 09 08:34:46 and etc. Dec 09 08:35:50 what's Dots? Dec 09 08:35:56 in other words, right now, Orca and Gok are in the guide Dec 09 08:35:59 braille translation software Dec 09 08:37:29 so shiny, happy, the-world-is-beautiful answer: mallard means you could develop the orca guide separately and just merge it into the desktop help Dec 09 08:37:50 * joanie does like mallard Dec 09 08:38:12 but more realistically: both the desktop help and the orca guide are probably going to be big, and merging their navigation might be difficult Dec 09 08:38:24 i.e. it might just be easier to keep the orca guide separate Dec 09 08:38:54 and we can still put like a page or something in the desktop help that says "oh hey, we have orca, check out its docs here" Dec 09 08:39:05 * joanie nods Dec 09 08:39:29 so once I'm ready to show you what I have, what's the best place/way for me to get that to you Dec 09 08:39:39 is it in git? Dec 09 08:39:40 commit it somewhere, or tarball? Dec 09 08:39:43 not yet Dec 09 08:40:10 because I've taken it all and redone it to the point it doesn't fit in the desktop guide Dec 09 08:40:19 in appearance, style, or anything Dec 09 08:40:29 either works, really. but I like git Dec 09 08:40:40 okay Dec 09 08:40:52 I'll make a branch of the unstable docs Dec 09 08:40:54 as for the other modules, I think it comes down to how extensive of help they need Dec 09 08:42:00 but if other a11y modules have help documentation, should that documentation go into the Destkop guide (or wherever Orca goes) if for no other reason as to be parallel and predictable? Dec 09 08:42:08 I'm more concerned with whether anybody has time to work on the content for those modules. I have a team of ninjas that can work on organization if we have a pile of content Dec 09 08:42:22 * joanie nods Dec 09 08:42:53 so in summary (I think) API I guess what we need to do next is poke and prod our team for their help content in whatever form it's in? Dec 09 08:43:12 so that we can get it to shaunm's ninjas Dec 09 08:43:23 * joanie wants ninjas btw Dec 09 08:43:49 Does Mallard get used for developer docs/tutorials, or just user docs? I was just chatting with someone who might want me to sit down with him and explain atk once I'm back in ATX, and it reminded me that we really need a tutorial to help people who want to implement it. Dec 09 08:43:55 joanie, so ask the different teams to write docs? Dec 09 08:44:16 yup. Or update what they have. Or just share them if they have updated docs Dec 09 08:44:20 mgorse, ATX? Dec 09 08:44:23 what's the timescale? Dec 09 08:44:34 API: Sorry. Austin, TX Dec 09 08:44:37 * joanie waves to slee Dec 09 08:44:59 * slee waves back and rubs sleep out of eyes Dec 09 08:45:10 shaunm: in terms of time, do docs have to live by the traditional GNOME string freezes? Dec 09 08:45:22 so the keyboard/mouse a11y stuff in the control center, I think the doc team can manage that. probably with a couple questions along the way Dec 09 08:45:35 * joanie nods Dec 09 08:46:03 joanie: docs are not (yet) subject to any freezes. I have a voluntary freeze proposal we might try to do for 3.0 Dec 09 08:46:49 awesome so then slee I guess time scale is really soon, when feasible Dec 09 08:46:52 mgorse: so I just got back from the developer docs hackfest. we started writing introductory demo tutorials, each focusing on a particular piece of the platform. Dec 09 08:47:21 mgorse: ATK was on our list of things we need to pester somebody to write a tutorial for, but that none of use knew how to do. Dec 09 08:47:30 joanie: ok so doing at FOSDEM is out then Dec 09 08:47:35 and we used mallard Dec 09 08:47:40 not necessarily Dec 09 08:47:56 shaunm: Okay; thanks Dec 09 08:48:43 slee: oops the not necessarily was directed at you Dec 09 08:48:44 but I'm format-agnostic, and will happily convert between formats for anybody who wants to focus on content Dec 09 08:48:56 I could work on a tutorial forit; I'll talk with you off-line Dec 09 08:49:09 awesome Dec 09 08:49:12 / take a look at mallard Dec 09 08:49:13 yay mgorse thanks for doing that! Dec 09 08:49:35 joanie: OK - wondering if a intro and hack session on docs would work at FOSDEM Dec 09 08:50:04 joanie: I'll look at the current a11y guide and the current moduleset and send an email to the a11y list within the next week Dec 09 08:50:05 interesting idea slee depending on who all is going, it might indeed Dec 09 08:50:07 but not sure if it is mainly presentations given call for papers Dec 09 08:50:23 shaunm: thanks!!! I really appreciate it Dec 09 08:50:36 and thanks for attending this crazy-houred meeting shaunm Dec 09 08:50:59 * slee waves at shaunm Dec 09 08:51:06 you folks always have crazy-houred meetings :P Dec 09 08:51:11 * mgorse notices that we're at a meeting consisting mostly of Americans atm, and it's the middle of the night i America Dec 09 08:51:24 were just crazy Dec 09 08:51:28 slee: I don't think it would be something you'd submit as much as, if you all are present at fosdem anyway, heck, write some docs Dec 09 08:51:40 shaunm, we use a flip flop time table Dec 09 08:51:47 7:00 UTC one week Dec 09 08:51:51 15:00 UTC the next one Dec 09 08:51:57 joanie: good point Dec 09 08:51:58 that seems fair Dec 09 08:52:15 ok, I'm off to bed Dec 09 08:52:22 g'night shaunm Dec 09 08:52:52 for minutes sake, joanie, could you make a brief summary of this point? Dec 09 08:53:08 sure Dec 09 08:53:23 * slee smiles at API Dec 09 08:53:34 1 I will finish the Orca docs and create a branch of unstable for Shaunm to review Dec 09 08:53:58 2 We need to ping everyone else to say "update/write your docs please" Dec 09 08:54:19 3 Shaunm will review our existing docs and modules and write the a11y list within the next week Dec 09 08:54:45 4 We should consider a get-together/doc-writing session at FOSDEM (unofficial, to get work done) Dec 09 08:54:50 * joanie thinks that's it Dec 09 08:55:20 2a write them in whatever format you want as shaunm has ninjas Dec 09 08:55:27 but just write them Dec 09 08:55:31 * joanie is done Dec 09 08:56:17 joanie, ok thanks Dec 09 08:56:24 well, I guess that this point is over Dec 09 08:56:30 5 minutes til the end Dec 09 08:56:31 thank you. Definitely worth having that discussion. Dec 09 08:56:38 * slee likes 2a Dec 09 08:56:48 so lets start miscellaneous time Dec 09 08:57:20 anyone wants to comment/ask something in this ~5 minutes= Dec 09 08:57:21 ? Dec 09 08:58:52 is there a GNOME FOSDEM page? I've been very lax of following tread Dec 09 08:58:58 will check archives if not Dec 09 08:59:01 think is awesome Dec 09 08:59:45 slee, you mean this thread about accessibility devroom on FOSDEM? Dec 09 08:59:52 or other thread? Dec 09 09:00:28 API: yes - was there another related one? Dec 09 09:01:34 slee, no idea, this is the reason im asking Dec 09 09:01:45 but you were talking about GNOME FOSDEM page Dec 09 09:01:52 ant that thread was about Dec 09 09:02:05 first about accessibility talks on the main track Dec 09 09:02:12 and then an accessibility devroom Dec 09 09:02:48 API sounds like I need to read the archives Dec 09 09:03:05 slee, Dec 09 09:03:06 anyway Dec 09 09:03:09 see this link Dec 09 09:03:13 http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ Dec 09 09:03:25 on "call for participation" Dec 09 09:03:34 there are a accessibiility devroom Dec 09 09:03:34 API - yes have that - wanted the GNOME specifics Dec 09 09:03:36 accessibility Dec 09 09:03:49 and here the announcement Dec 09 09:03:54 http://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2010-December/001100.html Dec 09 09:03:59 I plan to go as so many things going on Dec 09 09:04:05 API: tah Dec 09 09:05:10 * slee tweets for GNOME doc writers Dec 09 09:06:23 well, 5 minutes over time Dec 09 09:06:39 I think that we can say that the meeting is over Dec 09 09:06:42 in Dec 09 09:06:43 3 Dec 09 09:06:44 2 Dec 09 09:06:44 1 Dec 09 09:06:47 meeting over Dec 09 09:06:53 :-) Dec 09 09:06:55 * slee hold on Dec 09 09:07:00 too late Dec 09 09:07:00 thanks you very much for being here Dec 09 09:07:03 just joking Dec 09 09:07:13 you snooz you lose Dec 09 09:07:18 specially all with a crazy nighttime Dec 09 09:07:20 bah