1 <aday> hi everyone! we have a gnome 3 user session in here in about 10 minutes
   2  hope you're all primed and ready :)
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   6 <CyBeR> aday: I see it all worked out
   7  CyBeR CyBeRino
   8 <aday> CyBeR: yep! thanks for your help
   9 --> fabio27 (~fabio@84-73-220-248.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #gnome
  10 <aday> looks like it's time to start
  11  anybody here for the user session?
  12 <sebsebseb> aday: hi
  13 --> nate (~nate@96.26.10.166) has joined #gnome
  14 <aday> sebsebseb: hey
  15  sebsebseb: anything you want to know about gnome 3?
  16  we were really busy earlier! maybe everyone's had their questions answered already ;)
  17 <nate> so are there logs?
  18 <sebsebseb> aday: and I was there a little before
  19  aday: KDE has a nice calender feature,  that shows events and such for different counteries, would be nice if Gnome Shell had something like that in the future
  20 <aday> nate: i put them up here for now - http://live.gnome.org/ThreePointZero/UserDays/2011-02-15/
  21 <nate> alrighty
  22 <a3Dman> I just have one question, what about the performance with nvidia drivers?
  23 <aday> nate: they're a bit noisy. i'm hoping to summarise the most interesting bits
  24 <a3Dman> I did not try the latest builds of gnome 3, but the old ones I tried was laggy on nvidia
  25 --> momiti (5c057796@ircip2.mibbit.com) has joined #gnome
  26 <bruce89> hello
  27 <aday> a3Dman: things have got a lot better of late. depends on the driver in question
  28 <sebsebseb> aday: also maybe not quite the best place for features requests for future versions,  but I would love a good built in background changer slideshow,  similar to what KDE has really
  29 <sebsebseb> bruce89: hi
  30 <-- rego has quit (Leaving)
  31 <aday> a3Dman: but things are much faster in general
  32 <a3Dman> aday, the proprietary nvidia driver
  33  aday, is there any easy way to try new git snapshots?
  34 <momiti> hi guys
  35 <a3Dman> I got lost with jhbuild ;)
  36 <-- geaaru has quit (Leaving)
  37 <aday> momiti, bruce89: hi, welcome!
  38 <momiti> I wonder where i can get the test live cd?
  39 <aday> a3Dman: i *hear* that the proprietary drivers aren't so good
  40 <a3Dman> aday, it's the only way so far :/
  41 <aday> momiti: http://www.gnome3.org/tryit.html
  42 <fruza> Hi
  43 * nate has read quickly through the logs
  44 --> gd808mobile (~gd808mobi@m460436d0.tmodns.net) has joined #gnome
  45 <aday> a3Dman: things are getting better in the driver department. keep trying - we'll get there
  46 <momiti> Ooops, I did try that link 2 times but it's stuck with black screen
  47 <a3Dman> aday, I use gallium3d on my old AGP nv4a card, it's awesome, but its support for nv5x is bad
  48 <aday> fruza: hi
  49  okay, seems like we have a few people here now
  50 <a3Dman> aday, thanks for making things clear :)
  51 <fruza> I would like to know if gnome3 is going to have something like group policies in windows
  52 <aday> a3Dman: you can get better driver info in #gnome-shell
  53 <momiti> I really like gnome desktop, but since ubuntu is shifting to unity! I wonder how things will go for gnome?
  54 <a3Dman> I think I will give a try for the latest changes and then ask if I face problems
  55 <gd808mobile> Aloha from Hawaii 
  56 <aday> hello!
  57 --> cygwinports (~Yaakov@S0106000cf16f58b1.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #gnome
  58 <nate> ok, something I didn't see in the earlier sessions:: what's the current status of Zeitgeist / GAJ? I see conflicting statements in individual blogs/planets
  59 <aday> ok, since we have a few people here, i'd like to make a request
  60 --- aday has changed the topic to: GNOME 3 User Day today on this channel! Please ask questions in #gnome3questions. Session times (UTC): 07:00-08:00, 15:00-16:00, 23:00-24:00 More info: http://bit.ly/iiBG59
  61 <aday> if you have a question to ask, ask it in #gnome3questions
  62  then i can go through the list and answer each one separately
  63 <nate> ? then why are we here?
  64 <aday> nate: i'll give the answers here
  65  #gnome3questions is *just* for questions
  66  everybody ok with that?
  67 <Silverfish> sure
  68 <a3Dman> ;)
  69 <nate> it strikes me as complicated, but I'll play along
  70 <aday> nate: i know - things got a bit messy in the last session though
  71  ok, first up! <nate>: what's the current status of Zeitgeist / GAJ? I see conflicting statements in individual blogs/planets
  72  that's a tricky one - not sure of the answer there
  73  i know the zeitgeist people have been doing some work on gnome shell integration
  74 <-- gd808mobile has quit (AndroIRC)
  75 <aday> i haven't seen anyone in gnome shell saying 'we want this' - maybe they have their own plans? i don't know
  76  nate: so sorry about that. most of us in gnome don't know what's happening with it either
  77 <-- jjmarin (~jjmarin@84.125.142.134.dyn.user.ono.com) has left #gnome
  78 <aday> what i can tell you is that we will definitely have document search in gnome 3 at some point in the future
  79 <nate> so no telling if it will ship with 3.0?
  80 <aday> nate: not as far as i can tell
  81 <nate> ok
  82 <fmuellner> nate: it won't
  83 <aday> oh! there we go :)
  84  fmuellner is a gnome shell developer
  85 <fmuellner> aday: (in 3.0, no idea about 3.2)
  86 <aday> fmuellner: you know what the reason is?
  87  maybe he doesn't know...
  88 <fmuellner> work on integrating zeitgeist into gnome-shell didn't really take off until ~3 weeks till ui freeze
  89 <aday> fmuellner: ah right - it's all coming a bit late
  90 <fmuellner> so too little time for shell designers to actually update the (ancient) document-related designs
  91 <aday> nate: so, the answer is not 3.0, but maybe 3.2
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  93 <aday> let's move on...
  94  next question: <cygwinports> what should packagers look out for when first shipping 3.0
  95  any devs want to have a go at answering that one?!
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  99 <aday> cygwinports: what i can tell you is that we have a migration guide for gtk - http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/unstable/gtk-migrating-2-to-3.html
 100  that should be useful
 101  cygwinports: are there any specific issues you're thinking of?
 102 <cygwinports> e.g. there was some back-and-forth re. gtk-update-icon-cache
 103 <aday> cygwinports: i'd recommend #gnome-hackers or #gtk+ for that kind of information
 104 --> orak3l (~orak3l@f048170026.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #gnome
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 106 <aday> i'm sure there will be more documentation in the future
 107 <fmuellner> cygwinports: gtk3 has an option to not build gtk-update-icon-cache
 108 <cygwinports> that was the final conclusion?
 109 --> barcode_ (~ollo@123.118.86.38) has joined #gnome
 110 <aday> cygwinports: i'll leave you to follow that one up, if that's ok
 111  next question! <virusuy> Gnome 3 Performance?? it's gonna be fast as gnome2 ?
 112  virusuy: so, a lot of our tech has had performance enhancements for gnome 3
 113  so you should see things like faster application startup and better graphics performance
 114  and we've opened the door for more optimisation in the future
 115  but performance is complicated, and we're doing more, and it comes down to hardware and graphics
 116 --> gd808mobile (~gd808mobi@m460436d0.tmodns.net) has joined #gnome
 117 <aday> but you should certainly see some improvements
 118  next!
 119  <nate> what's the rationale for zooming-in-and-cropping-off the "current app" icon in the top-panel? it makes many icons hard to distinguish from each other
 120  i don't know this one for certain, but i've got a pretty good idea
 121 <nate> is it "because we can"?
 122 <aday> i suspect that one reason is to soften the appearance of the icon
 123  no ;)
 124 <nate> riiiiight ... :)
 125 <aday> one thing that we've tried to do with the panel is to style it so that it sits in the background
 126  you see that with the colour of it, for example
 127  so when you have your windows, you focus on the windows and not and the decoration around them
 128  having a full icon would really stand out there
 129 <nate> seriously, then why do we need it at all?
 130 <aday> nate: because you need a consistent way to access parts of the system, and you need a visual anchor for the different views we've got going on
 131 <nate> I find that logic tenuous at best; the notification / menu icons aren't "softened"
 132 <aday> there has to be one thing that is always there - otherwise users get lost
 133  nate: no, but they're small and use a limited colour palette
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 135 <aday> imagine if you replaced them with big solid icons that have different colours
 136 <nate> and how about the *actual* windows? an icon is more distracting than they are?
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 139 <aday> nate: i'm not following you. the whole point is to let people focus on the windows
 140 <nate> even if I found that convincing, which I don't, the fact cropping out 40% of the icon makes it visually confusing
 141 <aday> nate: that's a valid argument - file a bug and we can discuss it there
 142 --> keret (d83a388c@ircip3.mibbit.com) has joined #gnome
 143 <nate> you're suggesting that having a blurry, cropped-out 24px icon is *more* distracting than a full icon of the same size
 144 <fmuellner> nate: for what it's worth, we used to have a smaller non-cropped icon there
 145 <nate> aday, I'll be happy to - just wanted to ask about it "live" first
 146 <aday> nate: i speculated that that is the design rationale. i personally didn't design that
 147 <nate> I couldn't find discussion of it in the docs....
 148 <aday> feel free to file the bug - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/ . that would be a really useful contribution
 149 <nate> can-do :)
 150 <fmuellner> nate: i don't recall exactly what problems the designers had, i think it had to do with the icon being disconnected from the application menu
 151 --> aliva (~aliva@94.183.164.124) has joined #gnome
 152 <fmuellner> aday: jeremy perry did
 153 <aday> nate: great :)
 154  fmuellner: thanks!
 155  moving on...
 156  <fruza> I would like to know if gnome3 is going to have something like group policies in windows. Something to limit features to users
 157  fruza: you thinking about administration stuff?
 158 <fruza> yes, of course
 159 <aday> fruza: i'm not aware of any particular changes there
 160 --> cornair (~chris@dslb-088-073-132-123.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #gnome
 161 <aday> fruza: i should imagine that shell extensions will give you some useful possibilities though
 162 <-- orospakr has quit (Coyote finally caught me)
 163 <fruza> I have implemented linux terminals based on LTSP in my work with gnome and this is something I'm very interested. To be able to restrict the user to see/modify things in the desktop
 164 <-- virusuy has quit (Saliendo)
 165 <aday> fruza: i'd recommend asking on #gnome-hackers or gnome list if you want to take that further
 166  i'm sure someone will help you out
 167 <fruza> ok, thanks very much aday
 168 <aday> fruza: sorry i don't have anything more specific to tell you :)
 169  another question: <lithpr> what scripting languages can be used to write GTK+ 3 / Gnome Apps?
 170  lithpr: hi again :)
 171 <lithpr> (sorry, lots of questions)
 172 <aday> lithpr: that's good :)
 173  the good news is that bindings for our scripting languages have been improved for gnome 3
 174  gobject-introspection means that bindings are almost automatic
 175  the other thing is that we're using javascript more and more on the desktop
 176  so you can write gnome shell extensions in javascript, which is pretty cool
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 179 <aday> <nate> what's the roadmap for gnome-shell extensions?
 180  that's a good one
 181  there will be basic support in 3.0 - just the foundations really
 182 --> Pranav_rcmas (~prp_rcmas@117.193.198.38) has joined #gnome
 183 <aday> and there have already been discussions about how we want distribution and installation to happen
 184  the rough idea at the moment is to have a firefox-style website where you can browse and install extensions
 185  asking when something will happen is always a tricky one
 186  i would be suprised if you didn't see some developments here in 3.2 though
 187 <nate> right. well, is there an API defined, for instance?
 188 <-- Affix has quit (Remote closed the connection)
 189 <aday> fmuellner can probably tell you more
 190  my understanding is that the basics are there, but there are few more nuts and bolts
 191 --> dj11 (bea60572@ircip3.mibbit.com) has joined #gnome
 192 <fmuellner> nate: no, at least not yet
 193 <keret> Does Gnome shell work on both open source drivers (like nouveau) and proprietary drivers (from Nvidia, ATI, Intel)? On which drivers does it work best on? and is 3D acceleration required (like thorugh Opengl)? I know these are a lot of questions but I am always interested about the graphics stuff.
 194 <fmuellner> nate: hooks are added on demand, really
 195  nate: (note that extensions can basically access everything already, there's just no guarantee on API stability)
 196 <aday> keret: hey! i'll answer that question once we've got through the others (questions can be asked in #gnome3questions - we'll answer them here)
 197 <nate> fmuellner, do you know of anybody working on actual extensions yet?
 198 <aday> nate: there are some out there - the shell mailing list has details
 199 <nate> k
 200 <aday> nate: got a particular extension in mind?
 201 <fmuellner> nate: as we lack a better place to collect them atm, there's a repository at http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-extensions
 202 <nate> aday, not really; just wondering
 203 <nate> cool
 204 <aday> ok :)
 205  <gd808mobile> Does gnome 3 have special support for tablets? Like tap gestures that replace mouse buttons.
 206  yep, good question
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 208 <aday> we have some improvements which are a step in the direction of multitouch
 209  and gnome shell is designed to be touch-friendly
 210  gd808mobile: but we don't have actual touch support in gnome yet
 211 <dj11> will gnome be good to control via keyboard (remote control)?
 212 <aday> though i know ubuntu have some gnome apps working with touch
 213  dj11: i'll answer that in a sec
 214  next up - <keret> Will Gconf be used for keeping configuration for gnome shell?
 215  keret: no, dconf will! :D
 216 <fmuellner> keret: unfortunately, right now we use both (gconf for keybinding configuration, which is shared with metacity - which has not been ported to dconf yet, so ...)
 217 <aday> that's the more complicated answer!
 218 <fabio27> so gconf will still be present in gnome 3?
 219 <-- feuloren has quit (Ex-Chat)
 220 <fmuellner> fabio27: at least in 3.0, but certainly not the whole 3.x lifetime
 221 <aday> we're making good progress there, but it's a big job
 222  getting close to the end now!
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 224 <aday> <sebsebseb> When do you think most Desktop Linux distros that use Gnome, will be doing Gnome 3 by default?
 225 <sebsebseb> and why?
 226 <aday> ha!
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 229 <aday> that's a big question to answer on irc!
 230 <a3Dman> true...
 231 <aday> sebsebseb: i don't think anybody knows the answer to that question right now
 232 <dj11> will there be a possibility to control the keyboard via http?
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 234 <sebsebseb> I think quite a few will provide Gnome 2.32.2 for a while yet
 235 <aday> sebsebseb: yes, you're probably right
 236 --> Silverfish (~Silverfis@c-3071e353.5664428--62697410.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #gnome
 237 <aday> gnome 3 is a big technology shift. it's natural that there will be a delay for some distros
 238 <a3Dman> I think ArchLinux will do it right 
 239 <aday> there will be options to use it though
 240 <-- gusnan has quit (Lämnar)
 241 <sebsebseb> maybe a year or so after the Gnome 3 release, before most of the popular ones use it instead of Gnome 2 by default, the popular ones at least, but intersting times coming up and Gnome 3 is one of the reasons why :)
 242 <aday> personally, i think gnome 3 is very compelling - so i think that distros *should* make the switch as soon as they're able
 243  but i can't predict what they'll do
 244 <-- uv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
 245 <sebsebseb> a3Dman: I think Fedora will do Gnome 3 right
 246 <aday> sebsebseb: yes, we know that. there will be others too
 247 <sebsebseb> yep :)
 248 <aday> ok, we're pretty much at the end now
 249  dj11 had some questions about keyboards, and then i think i'll have to call it a night
 250  thanks for coming everyone; i hope this was interesting and useful
 251 <gd808mobile> Thanks aday and the rest of you!
 252 <-- Pranav_rcmas has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
 253 <nate> yeah, thanks for taking the time everybody
 254 <sebsebseb> Thanks aday and others invovled with this :)
 255 <-- nixoeen has quit (nixoeen)
 256 <aday> yep, and feel free to come by again :)
 257 <sebsebseb> and thanks to the Gnome 3 developers as well :)
 258 <a3Dman> thanks aday for making things clear
 259 <-- gd808mobile has quit (AndroIRC)
 260 <aday> dj11: so, about keyboards...
 261  dj11: i don't know anything about the communication side - i mainly do design
 262  djcb dj11
 263 <dj11> oh ok
 264  but one question
 265 <aday> dj11: was it mainly the connection stuff you're interested in+
 266  ?
 267 <dj11> yes i would like to control the entire gnome system only via keyboard
 268  because sometimes my mouse gets stuck and i found some good remote programms for j2me
 269 <fmuellner> dj11: work on keyboard navigation is not complete yet, but it is getting there
 270 <dj11> ok thx for the answer :)
 271 <sebsebseb> On the subject of keyboards, I assume there will be a easy way to change keyboard language layout, like Gnome 2 :)
 272 --> Company (~Company@e177067098.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #gnome
 273 <dj11> yeah theres one thing i'm interested to in gnome 3
 274  the unity thin i mean
 275 <aday> sebsebseb: works on my machine
 276 <dj11> for example will you be able to costumize it?
 277  i mean if the USER will be able to custumize it, i wanted to say.
 278 <sebsebseb> aday: I still haven't tried later/latest Gnome Shell, but will soonish :)
 279 <aday> sebsebseb: you should!
 280 <sebsebseb> aday: indeed!
 281 <-- nate (~nate@96.26.10.166) has left #gnome
 282 <aday> dj11: there'll be some options for customisation, and the extensions stuff will be pretty powerful when it comes online
 283 <-- zelvosaur has quit (Leaving.)
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 285 <dj11> cool, extensions :) i didn't know about this
 286 <aday> it's a secret :D
 287  it won't properly happen until after 3.0. but it will happen
 288 <sebsebseb> dj11: also there are ways to theme Gnome Shell, some  themes already out there, that should work with later ones
 289 <aday> sebsebseb: yeah, the gnome 3 deviant art group is awesome
 290 <sebsebseb> aday: yep that's the one I meant :)
 291 <aday> dj11: you should check it out
 292 <-- king313 has quit (.)
 293 <dj11> in the repository?
 294 <sri> howdy
 295  sorry, was a little late.
 296 <aday> dj11: http://gnome-shell.deviantart.com/
 297  dj11: tron! http://half-left.deviantart.com/art/GS-Tron-Legacy-Git-192557812
 298 <dj11> and the awn compatibility will be the same?
 299 <aday> dj11: i haven't tried that, myself...
 300 <dj11> oh ok
 301 <aday> dj11: have a go. you might not need awn with it
 302  okay, i'm calling it a night. good chatting with you all
 303 <dj11> ok thx for all the information
 304 <bruce89> night
 305 <sebsebseb> aday: Ok good night
 306 <barcode_> cheers aday
 307 <sebsebseb> and thanks again for doing Gnome 3 User Day :)
 308 <-- aliva has quit (Connection timed out)
 309 <sebsebseb> Users Day