1 18:07:24 <amber> #startmeeting
   2 18:07:24 <tota11y> Meeting started Fri Feb 22 18:07:24 2013 CET.  The chair is amber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 18:07:24 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 18:07:37 <amber> so first off is status
   5 18:07:41 <amber> #topic Status
   6 18:07:57 <ghislop> I'm also guessing that this might be a shorter meeting since you met on Wednesday...
   7 18:08:06 <Dark_Rose> Still reading through the meeting notes, starting to make a little more sense but not much more.
   8 18:08:36 <amber> what spurred going through the meeting notes? just curious.
   9 18:09:02 <Stoney> hi all
  10 18:09:14 <amber> ghislop: I think we have some strageties to go over
  11 18:09:23 <Stoney> sorry, heidi and i were in a meeting
  12 18:09:28 <amber> welcome :)
  13 18:09:29 <ghislop> hi Stoney... and Heidi.... we just started the meeting...
  14 18:09:34 <heidi> :-) Yes, good.
  15 18:09:37 <Dark_Rose> Heidi told me to look to the community and start reading through the notes and such left behind. Besides the actual code documentation I have not found much else online, so the next best thing was seeing how they progressed.
  16 18:09:43 <ghislop> amber got volunteered by me to MC...
  17 18:10:01 <Dark_Rose> Since you guys are looking at all the code, I figured I can look elsewhere for now.
  18 18:10:28 <heidi> Sure, great!
  19 18:10:29 <amber> ok. I'm wondering if we could start looking at gui stuff while everyone else is focused on opencv
  20 18:11:05 <amber> its something I haven't started looking into yet, but is prolly the second biggest part of this program
  21 18:11:18 <amber> just a thought
  22 18:11:29 <amber> john?
  23 18:11:55 <amber> do you have an update?
  24 18:12:01 <Stoney> what do you mean by "look at" ?
  25 18:12:27 <Stoney> or "looking into"?
  26 18:12:30 <amber> start looking at what they are using for the gui, I know that opencv has their own gui built in but
  27 18:12:33 <john_> Not really -- still reading the 1000+ page Learning Python book
  28 18:12:38 <amber> im not sure if its being used
  29 18:12:38 <Stoney> ok
  30 18:13:16 <john_> Since it's using PyGTK, I'm thinking they're using the GTK hooks for GUI stuff?
  31 18:14:03 <amber> I think so, but we wanted to upgrade it to gtk3 right? So we might want to start looking to see if thats possible and how it will effect the opencv upgrade
  32 18:14:11 <amber> or vice versa
  33 18:15:01 <john_> PyGTK isn't compatible with GTK3?
  34 18:15:26 <amber> so as of now, I have been doing some documentation on the mousetrap project, primarily focusing on the framework and how it operates. I think there is a lot of room for consolidation or rewrites. Also just as an fyi I included a definitions list for opencv if anyone gets stuck on something
  35 18:15:49 <amber> i dont know john
  36 18:17:16 <john_> I'd be surprised if it is not (unless PyGTK was deprecated in favor of something else)
  37 18:17:21 <john_> Python is popular those days...
  38 18:18:26 <amber> PyGTK will be phased out with the transition to GTK+ version 3. Instead, GObject introspection will be used to generate bindings for Python and other languages on the fly. This is expected to eliminate the delay between GTK updates and corresponding language binding updates, as well as reduce maintenance burden on the developers.
  39 18:18:56 <amber> says wikipedia
  40 18:18:59 <john_> Weird -- Mousetrap currently uses BOTH PyGTK and GObject…?
  41 18:19:03 <amber> im looking at their source now..
  42 18:19:54 <heidi> Amber, did you have an idea of who particular should be doing the "looking"?
  43 18:20:24 <amber> not really
  44 18:20:28 <amber> i could start
  45 18:21:28 <ghislop> amber: I'm open to suggestion on this.  If you'd like to poke in that direction, feel free.
  46 18:21:59 <amber> I think its definitely the next step
  47 18:22:10 <amber> I can put together some documentation on it
  48 18:22:20 <amber> for when we start the transition
  49 18:22:30 <john_> Any way we can just stick with a simple command line application with a default OpenCV-generated window for the webcam input for now, until we get the underlying stuff working?
  50 18:23:13 <amber> I'm not changing the gui, just getting to know how it works
  51 18:23:48 <amber> but yes, we will definitely keep is simple john
  52 18:23:49 <john_> We'll have to change the code if we're punting PyGTK...
  53 18:24:41 <amber> but not before we get opencv working
  54 18:25:25 <ghislop> amber:  how does looking at the GUI fit with the issue of framework for opencv?  that is, should we keep you on the opencv stuff until we decide where we're headed?
  55 18:26:33 <amber> the gui is an easy fix, but the actual face recognition i think is main priority
  56 18:26:33 <amber> is*
  57 18:26:33 <amber> can we all agree on that?
  58 18:26:33 <amber> opencv first, then gui
  59 18:26:58 <heidi> Yes.
  60 18:27:09 <ghislop> +1
  61 18:27:16 <john_> +2
  62 18:27:21 <heidi> Let me ask a question. Is there no architecture or class diagram for Mousetrap?
  63 18:27:29 <heidi> I haven't seen one, has anyone else?
  64 18:27:32 <amber> its autogenerated from the code
  65 18:27:42 <amber> doesnt explain how they fit together really
  66 18:27:55 <amber> or how we would go about changing it
  67 18:28:00 <heidi> What is autogenerated from the code?
  68 18:28:04 <heidi> Is there a link?
  69 18:28:33 <amber> I've been working on a better version here: http://www.xcitegroup.org/foss2serve/index.php/MouseTrap_Dev_Help
  70 18:28:53 <amber> but gnome has one available:  http://gnome-mousetrap.sourcearchive.com/documentation/0.3plus-psvn17-2ubuntu1/main.html
  71 18:29:11 <heidi> Ah, right. I was looking for a diagram.
  72 18:29:20 <amber> there are a couple diagrams
  73 18:29:27 <amber> that show the backend working together
  74 18:29:42 <amber> http://gnome-mousetrap.sourcearchive.com/documentation/0.4-2/classmousetrap_1_1ocvfw_1_1__ocv_1_1OcvfwBase__inherit__graph.png
  75 18:29:44 * heidi looking
  76 18:31:26 <heidi> So it doesn't look like we have one, high-level picture with boxes and lines that represents the project?
  77 18:31:32 <Stoney> Very incomplete
  78 18:31:45 * ghislop looking too... amber: might want to record these as #links
  79 18:31:58 <amber> they are all on the dev help site
  80 18:32:11 <amber> #http://www.xcitegroup.org/foss2serve/index.php/MouseTrap_Dev_Help
  81 18:32:15 <amber> #link http://www.xcitegroup.org/foss2serve/index.php/MouseTrap_Dev_Help
  82 18:33:10 <amber> I could put together a class hierarchy, but can we upload pics to the wiki?
  83 18:33:16 <heidi> :-)
  84 18:33:30 <heidi> Ummm, ghislop is working on this.
  85 18:33:58 <amber> its still in progress?
  86 18:34:29 <ghislop> picture upload is off by default... it's a config change but I just haven't gotten to it.
  87 18:34:43 <Stoney> might look for a UML generator for Python... here is a quick first effort (to look for one) ...
  88 18:34:47 <Stoney> #link http://stackoverflow.com/questions/260165/whats-the-best-way-to-generate-a-uml-diagram-from-python-source-code
  89 18:35:00 <amber> thanks
  90 18:35:29 <amber> should we change to Next Steps?
  91 18:35:38 <Stoney> actually, here is what that article links to...
  92 18:35:41 <Stoney> #link http://epydoc.sourceforge.net/
  93 18:35:41 <heidi> So yes,I think that the OpenCV issue should be resolved before we get into GUI stuff. And having documentation is going to helpeveryone.
  94 18:35:42 <john_> 'closed as not constructive'
  95 18:35:45 <john_> heh
  96 18:36:11 <Stoney> yeah, that's the stackoverflow overlords for you :)
  97 18:36:41 <amber> heidi, so I'm still going forward with the docs then for th gui?
  98 18:36:51 <Dark_Rose> once we get close to finishing opencv, i'll start to look into the GUI stuff as well, I just want to see if I can find anything useful in the meeting notes, especially more recent ones that talk about cv2
  99 18:37:02 <amber> #topic Next Steps
 100 18:37:03 <heidi> Amber, I think that makes sense.
 101 18:37:39 <heidi> I don't have the big picture of the MouseTrap architecture and without that, I think that it is difficult to see how changes in one area might impact others.
 102 18:37:52 <amber> ok
 103 18:38:20 <amber> so I have mousetrap program documentation, ocvfw documentation, diagram and gui documentation
 104 18:38:28 <ghislop> It looks like epydoc requires comments in the code with some markup embedded in them... might not be our answer...  someone can look more closely though
 105 18:38:55 <amber> i think its the lack of comments that makes their autogen docs so scarce
 106 18:39:09 <amber> so it might be a manual effort
 107 18:39:32 <Stoney> ghislop ... but does it need that for a diagram?
 108 18:40:07 <Stoney> i think comments would be for a hyperlinked API documentation, but not necessarily for the diagram
 109 18:40:18 <ghislop> Stoney:  not sure... someone will need to look further.  I'm a 30 second expert here :-)
 110 18:40:23 <Stoney> yup yup
 111 18:40:26 <Stoney> me too :)
 112 18:40:29 <amber> ill check it out
 113 18:41:02 <amber> and dark_rose, if you need some clarifications on verbiage, I created a definition list for opencv
 114 18:41:17 <Dark_Rose> ok, and that is all on the dev page?
 115 18:41:21 <amber> describes how the go about creating haars and haar detection
 116 18:41:22 <amber> yes
 117 18:41:43 <heidi> Yes,, thank you for creating that Amber. Helpful!
 118 18:41:58 <Dark_Rose> alright, thanks!
 119 18:42:03 <amber> :)
 120 18:42:24 <amber> john, any next steps?
 121 18:43:13 <john_> No clue
 122 18:44:06 <amber> I suggest using the online python resources instead of a book
 123 18:44:12 <amber> the tutorials are very helpful
 124 18:44:13 <amber> http://www.python.org/
 125 18:44:18 <amber> (im sure you've been there)
 126 18:44:50 <amber> and also looking into the ocvfw, looking at the documentation I put together and looking for points to consolidate/remove
 127 18:45:09 <amber> if you see things missing in the docs, feel free to add
 128 18:45:37 <john_> The book came highly recommended. Begun out good, then got boggled by details. I'll try the online tutorials -- I prefer to learn the basics, then learn stuff as I need them, anyway
 129 18:46:03 <john_> ocvfw = all the .py files in the ocvfw folder, right?
 130 18:46:25 <Stoney> (it looks like epydoc can be install through yum, apt, etc.)
 131 18:46:28 <amber> yes. ocvfw is the folder that contains everything for the OpenCV FrameWork
 132 18:46:44 <amber> o nice, I can mess with epydoc after this then
 133 18:47:41 <amber> so just to bring up one last topic that we touched on last meeting
 134 18:47:55 <Dark_Rose> got to go to class, let me know if i miss anything! bye everyone
 135 18:47:59 <amber> is about the framework. Is the goal to rewrite, or revamp?
 136 18:48:03 <amber> bye!
 137 18:48:19 <john_> I remember you mentioning we might delete that folder entirely
 138 18:48:24 <ghislop> do we know enough to answer that question?
 139 18:48:30 <amber> getting there
 140 18:48:38 <Stoney> i think  we need to understand the current framework
 141 18:48:46 <amber> I know we will need some type of wrapper-ish thing around opencv
 142 18:48:48 <Stoney> maybe epydoc will help
 143 18:49:06 <amber> but the current one is redundant in many places
 144 18:49:39 <heidi> Right.
 145 18:49:44 <amber> ok, ill look into that then
 146 18:49:55 <heidi> I think we should come up with our best guess of what we should do and then run it by the community.
 147 18:49:57 <Stoney> so ocvfw is a lost cause?
 148 18:50:00 <john_> amber, I had to leave early on Wednesday, what did I miss?
 149 18:50:13 <Stoney> heidi, that's an idea
 150 18:50:13 <amber> just this i think john.
 151 18:50:19 <ghislop> so that sounds like we need to roughly estimate the change to fix the framework... and based on that decide whether revision or replacement is the easier approach
 152 18:50:21 <amber> yes i like that heidi
 153 18:50:30 <heidi> :-)
 154 18:50:33 <amber> right ghislop
 155 18:50:49 <amber> so well wait for the docs, and then proceed
 156 18:50:49 <heidi> The community may also have insight into which is a better approach and how to approach the problem.
 157 18:50:53 <heidi> :-)
 158 18:51:03 <ghislop> amber: I think you've got the ball on the framework issue.
 159 18:51:16 <amber> ok.
 160 18:51:22 <Stoney> getting an estimate of the changes to the current framework is probably easier than estimating what a rewrite will look like
 161 18:51:23 <amber> so ill make some action items
 162 18:51:28 <ghislop> why don't you work on the assessment and then share results with everyone?
 163 18:51:38 <amber> ok
 164 18:52:03 <amber> #action Dark_Rose will add documentation about cv2 based on opencv meeting notes
 165 18:52:09 <ghislop> Stoney: agreed.  but if the revision looks messy enough, I think that's the argument for repacement
 166 18:52:13 <amber> #action Amber will create a diagram of mousetrap
 167 18:52:28 <Stoney> good point ghislop
 168 18:52:47 <amber> I think they might have a structure we could use
 169 18:53:03 <amber> and some of the nitty-gritty stuff in opencv is something I don't want to touch
 170 18:53:51 <amber> #action Amber will create documentation on the mousetrap program, gui and ocvfw
 171 18:54:07 <amber> #action john will continue to learn python and ocvfw
 172 18:54:13 <amber> we are all ok with these actions?
 173 18:54:17 <amber> am i missing something?
 174 18:54:29 <ghislop> sounds good to me.
 175 18:54:40 <john_> What exactly would you like me to do with ocvfw?
 176 18:54:47 <amber> learn how it operates
 177 18:55:02 <john_> Okay I'll try my best :)
 178 18:55:03 <amber> because the next step is coding with it
 179 18:55:27 <john_> Wait, are we going to use it or are we going to remove/replace it?
 180 18:55:34 <ghislop> I'm assuming that "learn how it operates" is from an external perspective?
 181 18:55:37 <amber> thats what I will find out
 182 18:56:01 <amber> what do you mean by external?
 183 18:56:16 <john_> I'm assuming I'll take a look at the .py files and basically assemble the functions and what they do?
 184 18:56:35 <ghislop> enough to understand how it's used by mousetrap, not a focus on the internals of the code?
 185 18:57:08 <john_> That'll be a complicated task, since I don't know what .py files use what functions...
 186 18:57:09 <amber> I think in order to understand how its used, you will have to look at the internals
 187 18:57:27 <amber> I have it documented john, you can just look over what I have on the dev page
 188 18:57:47 <john_> Okay
 189 18:58:04 <amber> I am currently working on how the .py files operate, I think you can just take a look at my docs and that should be fine
 190 18:58:26 <amber> does that make sense?
 191 18:58:34 <john_> I think so
 192 18:58:45 <amber> so you wont be looking at actual code, just the docs
 193 18:59:15 <amber> so we all know what we're doing ?
 194 18:59:36 <john_> I think I'll look at actual code -- that should help my learning along, too. I also want to see what the functions the functions use (if that makes sense)
 195 19:00:08 <ghislop> OK
 196 19:00:10 <amber> I do have the methods on there too, you could actually do a side-by-side
 197 19:00:17 <john_> lol
 198 19:00:23 <john_> you've done all the work already :p
 199 19:00:33 <amber> its not finished yet :)
 200 19:00:40 <amber> mostly done for ocvfw though
 201 19:01:21 <amber> so I think thats it. anything else?
 202 19:02:02 <amber> awesomes.
 203 19:02:04 <amber> #endmeeting