18:00:59 #startmeeting 18:00:59 Meeting started Wed Jan 16 18:00:59 2013 CET. The chair is heidi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:01:09 Hello folks and welcome. 18:01:12 Good afternoon everyone 18:01:48 WE have an agenda listed at: #link https://live.gnome.org/MouseTrap/Meetings 18:01:49 For those new to IRC, Heidi has started a meeting bot or meet bot 18:02:00 What's that? 18:02:04 That is what the blue highlighted items are. 18:02:08 this is a tool that will sit in the channel and log what's going on. 18:02:14 heidi commands must be on their own line 18:02:24 (but it picks up the links without a command) 18:02:30 A meetbot captures both the raw text as well as key things such as links, topics, to do things etc. 18:02:38 Ah, so I should have done: 18:02:42 #link https://live.gnome.org/MouseTrap/Meetings 18:02:43 the commands allow events of the meeting to be recorded and later provided in summary form 18:02:43 Yes? 18:02:48 yup 18:02:52 Ah, thanks! 18:02:57 Neat. 18:02:57 the bot also knows bugzilla bugs 18:03:03 Oh, cool! 18:03:33 So the main goal of this meeting is to introduce folks and to get us all on the same page. 18:03:39 #topic Introductions 18:03:56 * joanie notes that perhaps fearless leader should be here 18:04:02 RIght. 18:04:12 I'll ping him in a11y 18:04:38 why don't we start with some introductions? 18:04:58 I'd ask everyone to just give us a sentence or so to introduce themselves 18:05:08 (this will also give everyone a chance to type... 18:05:42 understand that most of the people here - students especially - are new to IRC, so we're all learning... 18:05:50 I'll ask Heidi to start 18:06:10 I'm a prof at Western New England University (Heidi Ellis) 18:06:21 Ok...I'm Darci Burdge from Nassau Community College. We have a couple of students who will be working on the mousetrap project: John and Jana 18:06:33 oops that last name should be Jan 18:06:33 And I've been involving software engineering students in FOSS projects with GNOME Accessibility Team for the last three years. 18:06:47 and Jan couldn't make it? 18:06:47 Hi Darci 18:07:00 (I should note that NCC is still on break) 18:07:06 I didn't hear back from him 18:07:15 I'm a prof at nassau community college with Darci 18:07:51 I'm John, CS student at NCC. 18:07:52 Students from WNE? 18:07:56 As a first time IRC person, is there any etiquette I should know about? 18:08:08 Yes, be polite :-) 18:08:22 And you don't have to ask: "Can I ask a question" 18:08:29 Apparently we're having some trouble with the students at WNE getting connected 18:08:34 Sorry.. My client disconnected suddenly. Have I missed anything? 18:08:43 Hi LoganH, are you in the lab? 18:08:51 Logan: we assigned all the project work to you 18:08:55 :-) 18:09:14 Thanks Heidi :) 18:09:15 * john looks at Emily Post etiquette manual 18:09:20 Amber? 18:09:23 Nikki is in the lab and can't get connected. 18:09:24 Hi everyone, I'm Amber, 4th year junior at Drexel. I am pursuing a bachelors in IS and a masters in SE. 18:09:31 Welcome Amber! 18:09:58 (another explanation... Drexel programs are mostly 5 years, so Junior is the 4th year... 18:10:00 So Joanie just created the italics using the forward slash followed immediately by "me". 18:10:18 This is typically used to represent thoughts. 18:10:20 heidi: different clients have different formats 18:10:27 Oh, sorry, John did the italics 18:10:28 I see no italics 18:10:29 The third year is called "pre-junior" 18:10:36 Ah, thank you. 18:10:59 Loganh, could you please introduce yourself? 18:11:35 I've been tpying, but didn't introduce myself.. I''m Greg Hislop, a professor at Drexel U. Amber is working with me ... 18:11:54 Oh yes. I'm Logan Hotchkiss, Junior at WNE. I'm majoring in Computer Science with minors in IT and Business Entrepeneurship 18:12:16 AndroUser, are you from WNE? 18:12:18 Hi Logan! 18:12:36 Hi Dark_Rose, we're introducing ourselves. 18:12:44 Yes I am, irs 18:12:53 *it's Nicole lol 18:13:12 Dark_Rose, and where do you come from? Major? 18:13:46 #item WNE: heidi, LoganH, Dark_Rose 18:13:57 My name is Nicole Daugherty. I'm from WNE with a Major in IT and a minor in Forensic Science. 18:14:02 Ah, thanks. 18:14:18 heidi #info; not item 18:14:31 * heidi laughs 18:14:33 sorry. 18:14:36 no worries 18:14:42 it's what I'm here for 18:14:45 #info WNE: heidi, LoganH, Dark_Rose 18:14:47 And thank you! 18:15:11 #info NCC: darci, Lori, john 18:15:12 #info Drexel: Greg Hislop, Amber Heilman 18:15:25 #info GNOME a11y: joanie, API 18:15:29 Next topic? 18:15:35 sure 18:15:54 #topic Intro to IRC 18:16:15 how do you laugh/nod? 18:16:21 Joanie, do you want to give us the two best things to do on IRC? 18:16:24 * ghislop laughs 18:16:26 * joanie nods foolishly 18:16:32 *laughs ? 18:16:34 Amber, what client are you using? 18:16:39 konversation 18:16:40 amber type /me 18:16:42 that was done with a "/me" proceeding the text 18:16:55 * amber laugh 18:16:57 two best things? 18:17:00 o thanks! 18:17:00 You got it! 18:17:03 * joanie thinks a bit 18:17:04 http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/irctutorial.html 18:17:07 Or two tips? or more than two? 18:17:14 Tips 18:17:29 especially given the geeky 21st century in which we live 18:17:33 Here is a list of meetbot commands: http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html 18:17:54 Thanks john. General note: there are quite a few good tutorial resources on IRC... Google knows where they are... 18:17:55 Good job john and amber, this is exactly what we're looking for. 18:18:03 #info Tip 1: Many hackers lurk. That means they are signed on, but not necessarily at their computer 18:18:14 for instance, I'm signed on all the time 18:18:17 even when I sleep 18:18:25 even when I'm running errands 18:18:31 Do you go "away from keyboard" (afk)? 18:18:33 Yep, just sharing what I've been using (and yes, thanks to the almighty Goog) 18:18:42 so just because someone doesn't answer you doesn't mean they are ignoring you. 18:18:53 Ah, yes! 18:19:06 In my particular case, irssi sets my status to away when I close my terminal 18:19:13 but often, I don't change status 18:19:25 heidi, in some cases you can mark yourself to be away, depends on the client 18:19:28 on my client on that case 18:19:28 but you should be able to check idle time 18:19:35 my name appear greyed out 18:19:42 for instance try doing a /whois joanie 18:19:46 anyway, sometimes I just edit a little my nick 18:19:48 Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. 18:19:48 ie: 18:19:58 :-) 18:20:15 although to be sincere, sometimes I forgot to reset the name when I came back ;) 18:20:16 tip 1.5 no two developers are exactly alike ;) 18:20:29 Joanie and API... we didn't give you the opportunity to introduce yourselves... 18:20:32 To fill folks in, joanie and API are co-leads on the Accessibility team. 18:20:42 thanks Heidi! 18:20:45 :-) 18:20:47 #info tip 2 international teams are international. I'm (currently) in New Hampshire. API is in Spain. 18:21:00 we just found out a new maintainer is (we think) in Japan 18:21:10 so you cannot assume people are in your timezone 18:21:33 and I would add that this seems to be typical for open source projects... which is rather cool! 18:21:34 #info tip 3 If you have a question, ask it. 18:21:46 ghislop: indeed (typical and cool) 18:21:58 #info tip 4 always be polite, you never know who may be in the channel. 18:22:19 Are nicks typically lowercase? Should I be lori instead of Lori? 18:22:34 * joanie looks at API and tells Lori, "nah" 18:22:36 Good question! 18:22:38 :-) 18:22:56 I was just lazy :) 18:23:28 Any other tips? 18:23:41 Lori, well, nicknames are just nicknames, they usually mix lower and uppercase 18:23:41 I can't think of any 18:23:50 I've found that the best way to figure out IRC is to get on and try things.... 18:23:56 exactly 18:24:02 although it is true that is rare to found a full upprcase like me 18:24:11 it is just because API are my initials 18:24:12 fearless leader is special 18:24:12 You can always create a channel on the fly and have someone else join you to play around 18:24:22 You are a rare treasure API! 18:24:30 I started to use that as nickname long before learn that has a computer science meaning 18:24:33 OK, so if you're new to IRC, read up and join the discussions. 18:24:36 New topic? 18:24:41 thank goodness. I cannot imagine more than one API 18:24:48 Me either! 18:24:50 :-) 18:24:54 * joanie ducks 18:25:34 #topic Status updates from students 18:25:46 Could we have a brief update from each student as to your progress? 18:26:11 As a general comment... I think everyone is still in the process of getting mouseTrap installed and working... 18:26:20 yes 18:26:48 Joanie and API, students have been logging their progress: 18:26:49 I am currently working to update some of the code to be compatible with opencv 2.1 18:26:50 #link http://www.xcitegroup.org/foss2serve/index.php/Status 18:27:16 Amber, and is that where you're stuck? 18:27:18 amber: Nice! 18:27:37 just working out each error as i get them 18:27:42 Nicoles progress: I couldn't get Fedora to even start from my flashdrive to my computer so I haven't been able to start anything. I will be touching base with Logan by the end of the week so we can get our computers we are using set up in our lab and get started from there. 18:27:45 I'm in the same spot with Amber, working on making changes to the code for CV compatabbility 18:28:23 Didn't dig in near as far as amber or LoganH, but I got it installed fine (sans webcam). When I introduced the webcam into the mix, though, things didn't go too well 18:28:39 I know that john might have gotten closer using ubuntu and an older version of opencv 18:28:50 (before the breaking changes of the new api) 18:29:06 Also noted that I'm working off a kinda outdated OS w/ old packages... 18:29:13 Dark_Rose and LoganH, why don't you set up the mini-linux boxes in the lab and work from here. 18:29:22 We'll figure out how to get them strapped down. 18:29:57 I would have done so already but I haven't seen Logan's face since we have got back from break lol 18:30:34 Joanie, API, does is make sense to try Mousetrap on on Ubuntu platform? 18:30:39 so it looks like WNE and Drexel have matching configs... 18:30:44 I use fedora; API? 18:30:45 LoganH and Amber are working on Fedora. 18:30:54 what version of Fedora? 18:30:57 17 18:30:58 A quick question -- this is a GNOME project, right? No interest in making it work with forks? 18:30:59 Im still using ubuntu 18:31:00 17 18:31:02 I can try to set up a similar environment 18:31:09 12.10, don't remember the animal name 18:31:10 17 here as well 18:31:11 Heidi: I have one computer setup in the lab before break, but needed to bring in my usb cd drive to get it installed. I will be working on that this upcoming week 18:31:23 Im on Fedora 17 as well 18:31:31 ubuntu 12.10 quantal 18:31:34 LoganH, I've got more of those drives if you need in my office. 18:31:41 Joanie: the link Heidi provided has detailed config info for each site 18:31:49 awesome thanks 18:31:51 * joanie looks 18:31:54 but probably fedora would be a better option, as it is more aligned with GNOME these days 18:31:58 I'm on Ubuntu 10.10 (the one before they added Unity -_-) 18:32:24 John: So perhaps you should move to Fedora? 18:32:27 John, Hmmm, sounds like it might make sense for you to upgrade to 12.10 or swap to Fedora? 18:32:33 does it makes sense for us to switch to fedora 18:32:46 that depends darci 18:32:46 Yeah I'm thinking the same, but it's not my laptop. I'll speak with darci about that. 18:32:53 Darci: yes, unless that's a problem 18:32:54 on the one hand it gets everyone in the same environment 18:33:05 on the other hand, there are a lot of Ubuntu users 18:33:25 Even if Canonical has drifted from GNOME a tad 18:33:26 All of the dependencies and OS's are listed on the status site so we can all work in the same environment 18:33:29 That comes back to how GNOME-centric should the project be? 18:33:31 So simply updating the ubuntu to 12.10 might be best. 18:33:44 Joanie: right. I'm thinking along the same lines. Although for getting started, standardizing the environment might simplify life 18:33:47 Because Ubuntu isn't too cozy with GNOME those days… 18:33:57 john: ya think? 18:33:58 ;) 18:34:20 anyhoo, with API on Ubuntu and me on Fedora, you have resources from both 18:34:37 maybe it's beneficial to work in both so that both platforms can be used by future users? 18:34:47 Please tell me Gtk+ 3 and Python 3 and GObject Introspection are also on the to-do list 18:35:01 so here's a decision for NCC: to Ubuntu or to not Ubuntu 18:35:11 I think we resolved some simple errors with the GObject introspection 18:35:16 If MouseTrap is written for GNOME Shell (GNOME 3), would it work on Unity (with minimal effort)? 18:35:26 joanie, API so should we keep one team on ubuntu? Does that make sense? 18:35:29 john: MouseTrap is not written for gnome-shell 18:35:50 we need it working with GNOME 3y environments 18:36:12 and ubuntu 13.04 will be python 3 based, gtk 3.6 based (i think), etc 18:36:20 heidi: It's up to you re ubuntu 18:36:36 eventually, it would be good to have a better integration of mousetrap and gnome-shell 18:36:37 it sounds like it makes more sense to switch to fedora 18:36:38 but right now 18:36:38 but everyone should be in an environment with a pretty current gnome/unity 18:36:39 as joanie said 18:36:53 what we need is mousetrap working with gnome 3y environments 18:36:54 for instance, I'm the Orca maintainer, and Orca needs to work in Ubuntu 18:36:55 * amber notes that all other students are using python 2.7 18:37:15 #action Add Gtk+ 3 and Python 3 and GObject Introspection as high priority 18:37:22 amber: GNOME is making python 3 the version of GNOME 3.8 18:37:26 so Fedora 19 18:37:35 o ok 18:37:38 but we need to target the future 18:37:44 agreed 18:37:59 btw, I have had to do the introspection, gtk 3, bla bla bla for Orca, and for much of Accerciser 18:38:04 I'm a fricken' pro 18:38:05 ;) 18:38:09 What about Unity (when will it use Python 3 and Gtk+ 3, if not already)? 18:38:11 ping me any time you want help with that 18:38:16 #action NCC decide on Ubuntu or Fedora 18:38:18 I don't know jack about OpenCV 18:38:20 do you have any resources for introspection (joanie) 18:38:29 #action WNE, Drexel update to Fedora 19 18:38:30 amber: my brain at this point 18:38:32 but I can look 18:38:44 I haven't found a really good conversion website yet 18:38:45 #action Joanie will hunt down some introspection docs for Amber 18:39:02 amber: We can chat later too 18:39:09 once you get the hang of it, it's not hard 18:39:13 :) 18:39:27 in fact.... in terms of sample code, that might be the best 18:39:44 #action Joanie will look for her commits for introspection for Amber 18:40:05 thank you! 18:40:12 ugh, thought of something else 18:40:20 john, no idea bout Unity plans at this moment 18:40:26 API, any objections to me adding myself and Heidi to the doap for mousetrap? 18:40:27 anyway, they are using gtk3 afaik 18:40:38 and as all the platform will use python3 18:40:40 so that we can then apply for Heidi's gnome account? 18:40:46 I guess that that would include unity 18:40:56 although afaik2, unity doesn't use python 18:40:57 Ummm, what is a "doap"? 18:41:04 is mostly written in c++ 18:41:10 heidi, is a description file 18:41:11 it's the file that has data on maintainers 18:41:16 amongst other things 18:41:21 Ah, got it. Thanks. 18:41:24 provides info about the project, maintainers and so on 18:41:37 thanks API 18:41:39 http://git.gnome.org/browse/mousetrap/tree/mousetrap.doap 18:41:40 is just a little xml file, so that would be easy 18:41:46 Flavio is long gone 18:41:54 #info doap is the fil that holds information on project and its' maintainers. 18:41:56 and my understanding is that they look to that when you apply for a git account 18:42:12 API so any objections? 18:42:13 #link http://git.gnome.org/browse/mousetrap/tree/mousetrap.doap 18:42:40 joanie, what do you mean that they look to that? 18:42:54 I mean that I received my git account grants long before 18:42:58 being included on any .doap 18:43:06 I read that recently 18:43:11 I forget what list 18:43:16 I had my git account long before too 18:43:30 I think Olav said it somewhere 18:43:35 anyhhhhhoooo fearless one 18:43:37 objections? 18:43:52 if not I'll add myself as a maintainer 18:44:10 I can add you as well API 18:44:36 hmm, shouldn't we add heidi for example? 18:44:37 so then Heidi can point to us as vouchers 18:44:45 ah 18:44:46 we could but what is her gnome:userid? 18:45:13 anyhoo, this is a deep dive. 18:45:15 * heidi looking 18:45:17 Heidi we'll sort this out 18:45:20 but we are already maintainers of atk/orca, shouldn't that be enough to be vouchers for heidi? 18:45:23 heidi: I don't think you have one 18:45:24 OK 18:45:39 API why isn't Flavio the voucher then? 18:45:39 Is that different from the login to edit the wiki? 18:45:46 heidi: yes it is 18:45:51 Ah, so no, I don't have one. 18:46:08 anyhoo, let's move on. We'll take care of this 18:46:23 Sounds good. 18:46:26 joanie, well, because we are more active on GNOME 18:46:29 So are the three items: Gtk+ 3 and Python 3 and GObject Introspection necessary to ensuring that MouseTrap works on current version of Fedora? 18:46:39 anyway, agree with moving on 18:47:06 heidi: honestly not sure if it is absolutely necessary 18:47:09 probably not 18:47:14 Ah, OK. 18:47:19 but it's one of the top goals to bring mousetrap into "good standing" 18:47:26 it is so not GNOME 3 ready 18:47:30 I'm just wondering how much of what students are struggling with is related to these goals. 18:47:34 and showing that it is would be a good thing 18:47:35 Yup, got that. 18:47:44 I think opencv is the biggest contender now 18:47:47 in terms of struggling, I will set up mousetrap in Fedora 18 18:47:52 OK, so we should be able to get MouseTrap running. And then do those three tasks. 18:47:53 and see what blows up 18:47:58 :-) 18:48:02 I have to go to class. It was nice meeting everyone! I talk to Logan about anything I missed :) 18:48:04 but introspection is not hard; it's tedious 18:48:18 and I'll be a point person for anyone on that front 18:48:28 thanks Dark_Rose! 18:48:31 Ah, so something that could be farmed out to people with less programming skills? 18:48:38 bye Dark_Rose 18:48:46 heidi yup 18:49:05 Joanie: any suggestions about order for attacking these tasks? 18:49:27 yeah, gtk 3 and introspection together 18:49:30 then python 3 18:49:38 #action When we get introspection up and running, look to pull other students in to help with conversion. 18:49:40 OK. thanks 18:49:40 (which I also suffered through on two modules and can help) 18:50:04 the reason for pairing gtk 3 and introspection is that gtk 2 + introspection is kinda broken 18:50:13 and they didn't see any reason to fix it last time I checked 18:50:23 so doing introspection means also doing gtk 3 18:50:24 #info work on gtk 3 and introspection together and then python 3 18:50:39 but it ain't hard. So no one should stress over it 18:50:48 and they should find me if they have questions 18:51:21 OK 18:51:25 joanie, question about where to put code. 18:51:27 is 'here' the best place to find you? 18:51:42 darci I lurk here 18:51:50 but might not be paying attention 18:51:58 Once we have the code updated to work on current versions, we'll put it on our local github and let you know? 18:52:05 but if you say my name, and I'm here, my terminal beeps 18:52:18 heidi: sure 18:52:26 ok thanks! 18:52:26 OK, thanks. 18:52:32 students should have bugzilla accounts too 18:52:47 OK 18:52:48 so as they have patches for review they can open a new bug (or find the existing one) 18:53:00 #info students should have bugzilla accounts 18:53:01 actually lemme take care of that (filing a couple of bugs) 18:53:04 #action have everyone get bugzilla accounts 18:53:06 OK, so we're getting close to an hour. 18:53:14 Next topic? 18:53:25 next steps 18:53:29 #topic Next Steps 18:53:56 First step should be to get a working environment at each site 18:53:56 Clearly the next step is to get a working environment on all three campuses. 18:53:59 bug 691878 18:54:00 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=691878 normal, Normal, ---, mousetrap-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Convert to Python 3 18:54:06 * joanie files another 18:54:29 FYI, joanie is making the tasks that we idenitified into bugs on bugzilla 18:55:00 since I know jack diddly about OpenCV, if someone could file a bug about that (students working on it) 18:55:03 it would be super 18:55:24 joanie, did you have to do some magic to make the "bug 691878" link to that bug? 18:55:28 don't have a bugzilla accnt yet 18:55:36 Nevermind, answered my own question. 18:55:49 #action File a bug to document problems with OpenCV 18:56:18 I will file the OpenCV bug now 18:56:58 and bug 691879 18:56:58 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=691879 normal, Normal, ---, mousetrap-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Convert to Gtk+ 3 and GObject Introspection 18:57:24 heidi: are you following the mousetrap-maint alias? 18:57:29 the profs should be doing so 18:57:31 So looking ahead, some guidance, particularly for students. 18:57:32 imho 18:57:40 Umm, following? 18:57:46 yup 18:57:58 I think I mentioned that in an email 18:58:04 Is that like a list? 18:58:06 do you have a bugzilla account 18:58:28 Yes, and I think so. 18:58:30 if so, go to: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email 18:58:31 * heidi checking 18:58:32 :) 18:58:46 at the bottom they have "user watching" 18:59:03 OK 18:59:09 I have to find my login. 18:59:11 if you watch mousetrap-maint@gnome.bugs, you will get email notification of new bugs, comments, etc. 18:59:22 so when we start getting awesome patches for students 18:59:28 which need professor review 18:59:36 the students don't have to come looking for you 18:59:44 they just attach the patch and you get an email 18:59:46 Ah, got it. 18:59:52 geeky goodness 18:59:59 :-) I like geeky goodness! 19:00:00 right! :-) 19:00:05 soon you'll never have to actually talk to students again. (kidding, just kidding) 19:00:13 * amber laughs 19:00:20 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=691881 19:00:20 04Bug 691881: normal, Normal, ---, mousetrap-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Convert OpenCV to CV 2.3.1 and update corresponding code 19:00:33