Attachment '20080923.txt'

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   1 < mclasen> time to start ?
   2  * mclasen somewhat distracted by waiting for a school bus
   3 < dom> no time like the present
   4 < ebassi> good for me
   5 < mitch> yea
   6 < mclasen> ok
   7 < mclasen> first topic is "what do we do about the public outcry over the adjustment changes" ?
   8 < bratsche> Hi
   9 < mclasen> the way I see it, there are 3 options here
  10 < mclasen> 1) revert it to the previous behaviour
  11 < mclasen> 2) stick to it and maybe explain it better, broken apps be damned
  12 < mclasen> 3) try to make it more palatable by changing spin buttons (what else? ) to ignore page_size 
  13 < mclasen> anything else ?
  14 < mitch> is 3) feasible at all?
  15 < kalikiana> 4) restore the old behaviour and instead emit a critical warning
  16 < mitch> it's a model/view ting after all
  17 < ebassi> assuming that 3 did not break applications, 2+3 would be the perfect solution
  18 < mclasen> mitch: I haven't explored it really
  19 < Sonderblade> 3 is feasible, atleast for spin buttons
  20 < mitch> kalikiana: in spinbutton?
  21 < leio-dl> 1) with the fix reintroduced in a later bug fix release after better public notification
  22 < leio-dl> or something like 3) with a similar approach
  23 < mitch> i don't see how that can be done within GtkSpinButton?
  24 < kalikiana> mitch: it's not only spin buttons
  25 < mitch> kalikiana: i know
  26 < mitch> gimp was affected on all levels
  27 < kalikiana> and my volume is stuck at 80%
  28 < kalikiana> so behaviour should not change, still a warning would make sense to me
  29 < kalikiana> or am I overlooking something?
  30 < mitch> kalikiana: what should not change?
  31 < kalikiana> mitch: the behaviour that now breaks all of my desktop and previously worked
  32 < mitch> i still think that all these apps are broken and were broken before
  33 < mclasen> mitch: we can try again in 2.90...
  34 < mitch> mclasen: indeed
  35 < Sonderblade> what was the bug# and the commit that caused the new behaviour?
  36 < mitch> if we revert i would add a big fat warning to spinbutton and scale
  37 < mclasen> so, if we revert to accepting the full range, where would we warn ?
  38 < mclasen> when setting a problematic adjustment on the affected widgets ?
  39 < mitch> in all adjustment users apart from scrollbar
  40 < mitch> i would say there and in their "changed" callbacks
  41 < mclasen> that could be a lot of warning, though
  42 < mitch> not "value-changed"
  43 < mitch> "changed"
  44 < mclasen> ah, ok
  45 < kalikiana> mitch: That's what I just said as 4) :P
  46 < mclasen> do we have a volunteer to come up with a patch for that ?
  47 < mitch> until when? tomorrow?
  48 < mclasen> ideally 
  49 < mitch> i can do that tomorrow, and revert my own original commit
  50 < mclasen> I may have a look myself tonight
  51 < mitch> mclasen: if you do, don't forget to also revert all the removed manual (upper - page_size) i removed
  52 < mitch> scratch one "removed" ;)
  53 < mclasen> we only revert on the gtk-2-14, and leave the strict code in trunk ?
  54 < ebassi> trunk should stay
  55 < ebassi> we have a year worth of warning
  56 < bratsche> That would go into 2.16 right?  Is that intended?
  57 < mclasen> bratsche: maybe not
  58 < mclasen> but we can sort that out when 2.16 and 2.90 split ways
  59 < bratsche> Maybe save it for when 2.90 is branched separately from 2.16
  60 < bratsche> Yeah.
  61 < mitch> i agree
  62 < ebassi> so
  63 < ebassi> ACTION: revert and add a warning in gtk-2-14
  64 < ebassi> ACTION: add the strict code when we branch in 2.90
  65 < mclasen> ok, thanks
  66 < mitch> it's three things to revert IIRC, starting 2008-08-05
  67 < mitch> what? add strict code when we branch?
  68 < mitch> i thought we keep the strict code in trunk?
  69 < mclasen> mitch: for 2.90, yeah
  70 < mclasen> maybe not for 2.16
  71 < bratsche> But trunk will become 2.16, right?
  72 < mclasen> but we can sort that out later
  73 < mitch> yea indeed, no hurry
  74 < mclasen> I just need the stable branch to be fixed right now
  75 < mclasen> was there another topic for today ?
  76 < mitch> i added one, it's all my fault today
  77 < mitch> i basically have patches ready to get rid of all H and V subclasses and have "orientation" properties in their parents
  78 < mclasen> we surely can't drop the subclasses ?
  79 < mitch> that gets rid of so much code duplication
  80 < mitch> mclasen: why not?
  81 < kalikiana> but we can deprecate the subclasses :)
  82 < mclasen> because apps are using them ?
  83 < mitch> sure, deprecate them, not drop :)
  84 < kris> I wonder if apps will ever move away from using them though ...
  85 < mitch> that would give us nice opportinities to fix default values, since e.g. GtkBox is abstract
  86 < mitch> so having GtkBox instances is essentially a new widget
  87 < mitch> where the packing defaults could be fixed
  88 < mitch> kris: sure, many people fix their code to not use deprecated, don't you? ;)
  89 < kalikiana> that would be a pretty neat side effect
  90 < bratsche> Is it possible to make like #define gtk_hbox_new helpers that alias to gtk_box_new and add the correct property, plus the remaining arguments to the #define?
  91 < ebassi> +1 for 
  92 < mitch> bratsche: no, the function would have to stay
  93 < kris> mitch: okay okay
  94 < ebassi> #define gtk_vbox_new(t,s)
  95 < kris> mitch: no further input from me here as I don't maintain apps
  96 < ebassi> gtk_box_new (orientation, t, s)
  97 < mitch> we can't get rid of the symbol
  98 < mitch> ebassi: exactly
  99 < mitch> gtk_srparator_new()
 100 < mitch> gtk_ruler_new()
 101 < mitch> etc.
 102  * mclasen is all for making things flippable
 103 < bratsche> I know the symbol needs to stay during 2.16, but I meant during 2.90.. but anyway, that's for later. :)
 104 < mitch> ok, expect a ton of patches to be files in the coming days
 105 < kalikiana> mitch: Make a note to expressly document the properties, please, if you change them
 106 < mitch> filed
 107 < mitch> kalikiana: what change?
 108 < kalikiana> mitch: You said the defaults can be fixed
 109 < kalikiana> Or did I misunderstand?
 110 < Sonderblade> if vbox, hbox and friends become deprecated won't they still someday have to be removed? otherwise what is the point of deprecation?
 111 < mitch> kalikiana: that is unimplemented and needs to be discussed, i don't even have code for changed defaults
 112 < kalikiana> Sonderblade: Of course, but not within 2.16
 113 < mitch> Sonderblade: exactly, but the actual point is a) reducing code duplication and b) making subclassing easier
 114 < mitch> right now you have to derive from GtkHRuler *and* GtkVRuler if you need to subclass
 115 < kalikiana> mitch: Sure, good enough if you add it to the bug orwhatever, just that it's considered right away :)
 116 < mitch> or look at GtkScaleButton, it has two subclasses for HScale and VScale
 117 < kalikiana> There are even 3rd party hvbox style widgets out there
 118 < mitch> i know, they can all die once 2.16 is out then
 119 < mitch> i will file separate bugs for each bunch of parent,v,h i hacked
 120 < mitch> ebassi: ACTION please ;)
 121 < Sonderblade> it would be very cool if they are runtime flippable :)
 122 < bratsche> heh
 123 < mclasen> one interesting thing is that we get runtime flippability
 124 < mitch> Sonderblade: they all are in my tree
 125 < ebassi> ACTION: mitch files bugs with the various patches
 126 < ebassi> :-)
 127 < mclasen> but if you have nested boxes, you probably want to flip them all at the same time
 128 < mitch> one small problem i have is e.g. GtkRange which has class members to control drawing details
 129 < mitch> that needs to be sorted somehow
 130 < Sonderblade> mitch: yay! :)
 131 < mitch> mclasen: yea i have code in testgtk for that too ;)
 132 < mitch> works nicely actually
 133 < bratsche> Oh, that's cool that it's runtime-flippable.
 134 < ebassi> neat
 135 < ebassi> this is definitely going in the minutes :-)
 136 < mclasen> are we ready to go to 'misc' ?
 137 < mitch> do we want set/get_orientation() API in addition to the properties?
 138 < mclasen> that would be the standard for widget properties, no ?
 139 < mitch> yea useless question
 140 < mitch> let's move along to misc
 141 < mclasen> the one thing I have is a follow up to the advisory board call on GTK3
 142 < mclasen> thus mostly for kris, timj, mitch, I guess
 143 < mclasen> has anybody done any work on the action items we had coming out of that call ?
 144 < mclasen> in particular the www.gtk.org section on gtk3 
 145 < mitch> mclasen: everybody apart from me has been at the maemo summit, we will have to do lots of stuff this week
 146 < mclasen> ah, thats fine
 147 < mclasen> but we need to get going on those things soon
 148 < mitch> omg i promised work done by my coworkers ;)
 149 < mclasen> I'll keep the www.gtk.org update on my todo list
 150 < kris> we've been thinking about some more concrete features and such
 151 < ebassi> I could not make it for the conf call :-(
 152 < kris> but I dunno how that is going to proceed
 153 < kris> oh and there is timj
 154 < kris> timj: 22:31 < mclasen> has anybody done any work on the action items we had coming  out of that call ?
 155 < ebassi> by the way: anybody has the actual list of action items
 156 < mclasen> wow, so late already in europe
 157 < ebassi> ?
 158 < mclasen> I think timj took notes
 159 < ebassi> (and possibly the log/minutes of the meeting of two weeks ago)
 160 < mitch> mclasen: we work our asses off at night here!
 161 < mclasen> at least he made it sound like he did...
 162 < timj> ebassi: did you get the slides? 
 163 < ebassi> mitch: I had three pints down at the pub before the meeting, so I guess this qualifies as "working my ass off" as well ;-)
 164 < ebassi> timj: nope
 165 < timj> there was little point in minutes during a slide presentation
 166 < mitch> ebassi: exactly :)
 167 < ebassi> heh
 168 < mclasen> ebassi: I sent some impressions immediately after the call, I can forward that to you
 169 < mclasen> its a far cry from minutes, though
 170 < ebassi> mclasen: thanks, that would be cool
 171 < mclasen> ok, thats all I had on my list for today
 172 < mclasen> if nobody else has 'misc' items, I think we're done
 173 < bratsche> Out of curiosity, is anyone else here planning to be at Boston?
 174 < mclasen> I'm doing a stable release tomorrow, for the gnome guys
 175 < bratsche> I know ebassi and federico are going.  Didn't know if anyone else is planning.
 176 < mclasen> I'll probably be there
 177 < bratsche> Cool
 178 < mclasen> Owen is going to be there, too
 179 < mitch> mclasen: i'll do the patches or review yours, whoever is faster (i'll not do anything tonight though)
 180 < kris> mclasen: we'll get back with roadmap stuff at some point, we did some concretizing and all
 181 < kris> bratsche: not me
 182 < kris> matlab fried my brain this evening
 183 < mclasen> mitch: the ass is already off...
 184 < bratsche> kris: heh
 185 < mitch> haha yes!
 186 < mclasen> good night then, everybody
 187 < bratsche> Bye.
 188 < ebassi> 'night everyone
 189 < bratsche> kris: Where is your uni anyway?
 190 < mitch> nite
 191 < kris> bratsche: Leiden
 192 < mitch> die Leiden des jungen Kris
 193 < timj> kris: could you fwd the advisory board meeting slides to ebassi?
 194 < bratsche> :)
 195 < kris> oh no I get lessons in German again
 196 < kris> timj: sure
 197 < bratsche> Okay, back to work.  Bye everyone!
 198 < kris> later bratsche 
 199 < ebassi> thanks kris 
 200 < timj> mclasen: about AB meeting action items, it's mostly us creating a gtk-3 web presence (blog) and posting a roadmap.
 201 < mclasen> yeah
 202 < timj> i'll do my best to send out an initial draft of that in a few days (or have kris do it, since i'm on vacation next week)
 203 < mclasen> cool, thanks

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