* tjc is now known as tjc_CareerMentor
<tjc_CareerMentor> Hi all, I'm not sure where Erin is, but it's officially the start of our career mentoring office hours, so ask away :)
<tjc_CareerMentor> I'm Tim Chevalier and if anyone has questions they want to ask offline, you can email me at catamorphism@gmail.com
<tjc_CareerMentor> you can also private-message me if you want to ask something without sharing it with the whole channel
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<exploreshaifali> hello tjc_CareerMentor 
<tjc_CareerMentor> Hi exploreshaifali 
<tjc_CareerMentor> How are folks feeling about job searches and/or being involved in open source in the future?
<exploreshaifali> I just want to ask career opportunities after OPW internship... like being a student I am suppose to search for on-site internhsip
<exploreshaifali> or job so what tips you would like to give us
<terriyu> I think I saw Erin at a different channel
<terriyu> Maybe she'll come over here soon...
<tjc_CareerMentor> terriyu: Do you know which one?
<tjc_CareerMentor> exploreshaifali: What year are you in school right now?
<terriyu> She was at #openstack-opw but then logged out
<tjc_CareerMentor> Ah ok. Internet problems, maybe
<exploreshaifali> tjc_CareerMentor, I am pursuing masters in computer application and expecting it to be compete in 2016
<exploreshaifali> tjc_CareerMentor, terriyu I informed her that she is on wrong channel... meeting is suppose to be at #opw
<exploreshaifali> but she was sounding busy :)
<tjc_CareerMentor> exploreshaifali: Thanks. Well, since you're a master's student, I would recommend looking for more paid internships to get more experience
<tjc_CareerMentor> That is, during your non-school times of the year
<tjc_CareerMentor> Some schools also have what's called a "co-op" program where you work part-time during school and get course credit for it
<tjc_CareerMentor> In your master's program, do you have a specific person who's your advisor?
<exploreshaifali> tjc_CareerMentor, no specific advisor we have and also not such co-op program
<tjc_CareerMentor> exploreshaifali, does your program assign you an advisor at some point? Or do master's students in your program just not have advisors?
<tjc_CareerMentor> a related question is, do you have to write a thesis or do a final project for your master's? Or just coursework?
<terriyu> exploreshaifali: some programs are flexible and you can do internships during the school year (just not attend school that semester), but you might delay graduation.  Not sure what your program is like.
<exploreshaifali> tjc_CareerMentor, yes we are suppose to write a thesis/research work in last semester
<tjc_CareerMentor> Yes, it's also easier to get an internship outside the usual vacation term (summer if you're in the Northern Hemisphere)
<exploreshaifali> we also have last semester free only for getting internship
<tjc_CareerMentor> exploreshaifali: Have you been told yet how you find a thesis advisor? usually that's a process that you start before writing your thesis
<tjc_CareerMentor> I'm trying to get at: a graduate program *should* assign you someone who's responsible for supervising your educational path...
<tjc_CareerMentor> But if they don't, you can also talk to professors at your school during their office hours
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: Are there any pitfalls to avoid being pigeon-holed into an unintended career path? 
<tjc_CareerMentor> I can make some general suggestions, but your professors would (or at least should!) know about specific opportunities in your area
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: that's a great question... I think that's part of what the Objective section on your resume can be good for
<tjc_CareerMentor> (also, I know I owe you a very overdue email!)
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think you have some latitude with your resume about what things you emphasize, and what things you don't
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: I didn’t even remember. :-)
<tjc_CareerMentor> for example, somebody who had work experience as a librarian, but is getting a CS degree, could make sure to put their Education section first
<tjc_CareerMentor> Likewise, someone with a degree in geology who is trying to become a programmer would want to put their Experience section first
<tjc_CareerMentor> cover letters are good for this too, and you almost always want to include a cover letter when applying for a job/internship
<aokoye> What I worry about is getting a job as someone who doesn't actually have a degree (and likely won't be getting one any time soon)
<tjc_CareerMentor> in a cover letter, you can relate your past experience to what you really want to do, and emphasize that
<tjc_CareerMentor> aokoye: Yes, that's tough. unfortunately, a lot of companies are pretty arbitrary about requiring a CS degree...
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think having the OPW internship under your belt does help, though
<aokoye> Yeah that's what I figured
<tjc_CareerMentor> also, when you see a job listing that says "requires a BS in computer science" or similar...
<tjc_CareerMentor> ....never take that literally
<tjc_CareerMentor> Almost everything written in a job listing is negotiable
<aokoye> That's good to know!
<terriyu> aokoye: I don't have a CS degree and got job interviews through my OPW mentors
<tjc_CareerMentor> So supposing you see a job that sounds good to you, and you have most of what they're asking for except the degree, then write a cover letter emphasizing what you've accomplished
<tjc_CareerMentor> Don't be tempted to start out with "I don't have a degree BUT..."
<tjc_CareerMentor> Put that last, if at all; emphasize your strengths
<aokoye> Great - I'll make a note of that
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think the good news, though, is that a company that doesn't require a degree is going to be a better company to work for
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: how do you know what will be a good company to work for and whether you will learn a lot?
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: also a good question. There's a good page on this on the Geek Feminism Wiki -- 1 sec...
<tjc_CareerMentor> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_find_supportive_workplaces
<tjc_CareerMentor> So a few things I would emphasize:
<tjc_CareerMentor> - look at who's interviewing you. If you talk to 6 people and they're all white men, that means something.
<tjc_CareerMentor> - Remember that when a company is interviewing you, they're trying to win you over. That means they're putting their best foot forward, so if you enjoy the interview experience, that's a sign you will enjoy working there
<tjc_CareerMentor> an example of this: one time, I interviewed at a company all day long, talked to 5-6 people, and was asked almost all technical questions
<tjc_CareerMentor> they didn't ask me any questions about how I collaborated or worked with other people
<tjc_CareerMentor> They rejected me anyway :P But I decided I wouldn't have accepted the job anyway -- because my co-workers would have been people hired solely on their technical-question-interview skills
<tjc_CareerMentor> - Watch out for companies where managers talk about "meritocracy" like it's a real thing
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: OMGosh! What a relief to see that other’s are not inclined towards words like “meritocracy” and “culture fit”
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: Heh yeah, those are just code words for homogeneity
<jody> I keep seeing this in job ads. “person must want to work for a start up and know what that entails.”
<tjc_CareerMentor> When I'm interviewing for a job, I always try to ask each person, "What's your favorite thing about working here?" and "What's your least favorite thing?"
<tjc_CareerMentor> now you would think people wouldn't give honest answers, at least for "least favorite", but sometimes they do
<tjc_CareerMentor> e.g.
<aokoye> Oh those are good questions to ask
<tjc_CareerMentor> One time, a guy answered "least favorite" with "The work/work balance. Ha ha!"
<terriyu> yeah, there is no such thing as meritocracy.  Any criteria you pick will have bias.
<tjc_CareerMentor> Now I know there's no such thing as "only joking", so I made a mental note that that company would probably be overly demanding
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: I think "know what that entails" mostly means they expect you to work 90 hours a week
<jody> That’s what I assumed. :-)
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<tjc_CareerMentor> You don't always get useful answers, of course. another time I asked an engineer "what's your least favorite thing about [working at big search engine company]" and she said "The fresh-baked cookies every day
<jody> How many companies are following the “start up” paradigm?
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: Some, not all?
<tjc_CareerMentor> keep in mind that there are also tech jobs that exist within non-tech companies
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sorry for the delay-I'm here as well!
<tjc_CareerMentor> For example, a friend of mine does devops for a dental laboratory
<tjc_CareerMentor> unusual job but he says he loves it
<tjc_CareerMentor> because the culture isn't your stereotypical tech startup
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> There are also tech jobs that exist with small tech teams at some smaller companies
<tjc_CareerMentor> Here's another thing I would suggest asking: "Can you describe to me what happens when a new engineer starts working at your company?"
<tjc_CareerMentor> If they can describe a set process for that, that's good.
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: On a side note, how do you feel about coding challenges? Can that be a red flag?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> for example a ad agency might have a tiny team of developers that work with them on coding
<tjc_CareerMentor> If they say "we throw them in a corner with a copy of Kernighan and RItchie and a laptop", that's bad
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: not necessarily; coding challenges are pretty common
<tjc_CareerMentor> asking you to do them in your free time can be a bit of a red flag. During the interview, it's pretty typical
<tjc_CareerMentor> I would say, though, that an interview shouldn't consist of more than 50% coding-on-the-whiteboard
<tjc_CareerMentor> I mean, over the whole day of interviews
<tjc_CareerMentor> They should ask you to talk about yourself, because they should want to hear you talk about what you're most excited about
<tjc_CareerMentor> (n.b. this is all just my opinion -- a lot of big tech companies do conduct very coding-heavy interviews)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Tim is right
<tjc_CareerMentor> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: We've been talking about how to figure out what companies will be good to work for, and which companies will be good learning experiences
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: I was thinking of the timed ones that companies send out before the interview. Are those typical too?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> excellent, I'll add info where I can!
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: They're common, but I would be particularly skeptical about a timed challenge
<tjc_CareerMentor> it's a very unrealistic scenario
<tjc_CareerMentor> at most programming jobs, you're not going to need to solve algorithm problems under time pressure
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Most companies don't care about timed challenges unless they're trying to weed people out or they have unrealistic deadlines
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> at least that's what I saw in recruiting
<tjc_CareerMentor> Yeah, I don't think I've ever been given a timed challenge
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> some companies had too many applications so they added a 'timed' coding exercize to try to weed some out
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would be wary of that
<tjc_CareerMentor> Ten years ago when I was looking for my first job, I was given a challenge in advance once or twice
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and I would deefinitely ask in the interview about it
<tjc_CareerMentor> but those jobs ended up not seeming that great
<tjc_CareerMentor> Over time, I've found that interviews start to feel less like being tested and more like a conversation
<tjc_CareerMentor> it's a good feeling :)
<tjc_CareerMentor> but my point is, if you feel like you're being tested during the interview -- in a way that stresses you out -- listen to that feeling
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, the interviews are usually the place where they want to see how you work with the team
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it is easy to see how someone codes-it's harder to see how they'll work with you
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think that a good way that some companies use coding questions is to see how somebody thinks on their feet
<tjc_CareerMentor> So if an interviewer is giving you hints, that's a *good* sign, because they want to get you unstuck so they can see more of your thought processes
<jody> What about interviews that seem too “light” on the technical questions.
<tjc_CareerMentor> it doesn't mean that they think you're doing badly
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely-they want to see how you think, in order to see if you can problem solve with the team
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: SOmetimes that happens if you get an interview through knowing somebody at the company
<tjc_CareerMentor> it could mean that your connection there said "Oh, she's really good" and the interview is a formality
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> he's right-if the interview is light, it means they probably trust your coding skills
<tjc_CareerMentor> But it could also mean that the company is a small startup where the existing leaders are non-technical
<tjc_CareerMentor> and in that case, who knows what they're looking for
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's true too-and if they don't know what they're looking for it can be ok
<tjc_CareerMentor> That can be a good thing or a bad thing. Good because you could potentially take a lot of initiative and have influence
<tjc_CareerMentor> bad because they might ask you to do the impossible by tomorrow
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but it can also be an issue if they give you specs on the project that are off
<tjc_CareerMentor> Right. if you're the first technical person at the company, you potentially get the job of saying "no" all the time
<tjc_CareerMentor> as in, "No, that's not possible in this amount of time or budget"
<tjc_CareerMentor> And that can be hard
<terriyu> I have a question about types of companies to look at...
<terriyu> can I go ahead and change the topic a little?
<tjc_CareerMentor> terriyu: Go for it! we can always return to this topic later
<terriyu> tjc_CareerMentor: I'm kind of a slow starter (as I start off being slow and not confident and then pick up speed) That might sound ironic, given that I have multiple degree (including an ABD in physics).  And I like to spend some time learning or getting trained.  What would be a good type of company to work at? 
<jody> terriyu: please ask. I’m interested in the answer. Particularly when people say you should work at both a startup and a corporation.
<tjc_CareerMentor> terriyu: I would definitely recommend looking at bigger, more structured companies
<tjc_CareerMentor> They are more likely to have a formal mentoring process to get you started
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<tjc_CareerMentor> that could include someone who isn't your boss whose job it is to check up on you every few days and see if you're stuck on anything
<terriyu> I had a particularly bad experience interning remotely at a startup.  They wanted me to code as quickly as possible and I wanted to slow down and figiure out what was going on.  And I felt bad at Agile standup meetings giving my reports because I was afraid I was doing enough.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree-startups usually provide time for self directed training, but it sounds like you're focused on learning and geting trained
<tjc_CareerMentor> For example, I've heard that Google is good at this -- at Google, you spend six months basically in "boot camp" mode before they entrust you with real work
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and for that it might be better to work with a team with lots of people where you can ask lots of questions
<tjc_CareerMentor> A lot of startups, though, will not give you much guidance and they will constantly act like there's lots of time pressure (when there may not be)
<tjc_CareerMentor> so bigger companies get a bad name sometime, but honestly, structure isn't a bad thing and they are more likely to want to keep their employees once they hire them
<jody> What about corporation where all the interns are thrown in together as a team?
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: I haven't experienced that personally... when I've interned, it's been as part of a particular team
<tjc_CareerMentor> where a team would have between 2-4 interns
<tjc_CareerMentor> and each intern would have a mentor
<tjc_CareerMentor> that seems kind of dubious to me; the point of an internship (besides setting yourself up to get a job there later) is to learn from more senior people
<jody> I have an offer where this is the case and it makes me a little uneasy.
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think you should be uneasy -- you don't know who you're going to be working with
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<tjc_CareerMentor> Do they have one manager who supervises the whole team of interns? Or several?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> as far as I know, when the interns are part of a team, they usually still have individual mentors
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> although there may be some mentors who have a few interns
<jody> So, I asked this specifically and they said there was a mentor but … I didn’t get a lot of detail.
<tjc_CareerMentor> *nods*
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think it's still risky b/c you don't get to talk to your fellow interns in advance
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> jody, does everything else about the company line up with what you want?
<tjc_CareerMentor> if you're going to be spending a lot of your time working with other interns, you don't know who they're going to be, whether they're going to be harassers, or people who like to put people down for perceived ignorance, etc.
<tjc_CareerMentor> at least when you know you're going to be working mostly with full-time engineers, you can talk to them in advance
<jody> I’m close to a different offer that’s with a team and I’m hoping it comes through.
<tjc_CareerMentor> also, full-time people are more likely to follow the company's code of conduct (if they have one) because they have an investment in staying there for longer
<tjc_CareerMentor> I also think watching how team dynamics play out (on a team of full-time engineers) is something you can learn a lot from
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, some interns don't take work seriously-I wish it weren't the case, but I see it all the time
<tjc_CareerMentor> RIght, there's interns who goof off, and there's interns who do the work but aren't serious about treating others with respect
<tjc_CareerMentor> not that getting older makes you more respectful, but fear of losing your job might :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I have had some students who did group internships and loved their team
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it depends on who they are-and also what the project is
<jody> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I wish I could say I knew more of what I exactly wanted but mostly I want to learn as much as possible. I’d like a team that is concerned with good development practices.
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<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I think jody, that worst case scenario, even if you took this role, you wouldn't hate it-but you'd have to take initiative to spend a lot of time with your mentor and not get caught up in the group dynamic
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I also think it sounds like you don't need to learn about teamwork (which surprisingly a lot of people do)
<aokoye> oh i have another question after we're done with this
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and so you'd be taking this role for the training whereas it sounds like the company is trying to put the emphasis on the team
<jody> aokoye: Don’t mind me. Ask away! 
<aokoye> :) thanks
<aokoye> so my question is pretty broad - where are some good plays to go about looking for job openings 
<aokoye> in terms of websites, possible conferences, etc
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I pasted some conference data in the wrong room earlier, let me re-paste it here
<aokoye> (I live in Portland, Oregon for reference)
<exploreshaifali> aokoye, yeah that is what I also want
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Some general free software conferences are listed at https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen/TravelAllowance#What_can_the_travel_allowance_cover.3F and I just updated that page with their dates and locations in 2015.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sorry, Marina updated the page (I can't take credit for that!) 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> http://opensource.com/resources/conferences-and-events-monthly 
<jody> aokoye: I can help answer this one. I like to use glassdoor. That way you can get an idea of tech companies that people enjoy working at. 
<tjc_CareerMentor> aokoye: Portland has a lot of tech user groups/meetups -- do you go to any?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Also talk with your mentor about conferences-they know you work and know what might be useful
<tjc_CareerMentor> aokoye: http://calagator.org/ lists a lot of them
<terriyu> most of my job hunting success came through my network.  I felt like job fairs were mostly a waste of time.  Almost no one got back to me.
<tjc_CareerMentor> those can be good places to meet people and network
<aokoye> i've been meaning to go to some of the python meetups but haven't gotten a chance yet
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> TJC is right-meetups are a really great way to connect with people and figure out what might be best for you
<tjc_CareerMentor> yeah, I've also not had good luck with job fairs, and at least one place I've worked, the recruiter said she found they were a bad use of time from her POV
<marina> aokoye: we have https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen/Opportunities - these are organizations that sponsor the Outreach Program and some other free software job listing sites
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I have been on both sides of planning career fairs, and they really are only useful for bigger companies 
<tjc_CareerMentor> aokoye: I don't know if it's active, since the web page hasn't been updated in a while, but in Portland there's also http://codensplode.org/
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> although I've heard there are more and more startups who are open to the idea of a startup career fair
<terriyu> the best thing (in my epxerience) is to know a technical person at the company who will recommend you and help you skip a bunch of steps in the process
<marina> aokoye: also LinkedIn is useful - this is how I found my job
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> And you can find technical people on LinkedIn
<tjc_CareerMentor> LinkedIn can be useful
* terriyu is making too many typos today
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> hahah-we're all saying the same thing at the same time
<aokoye> Thanks for all of the links! (also yes Calagator is awesome)
<tjc_CareerMentor> WhiteTruffle can be useful too, I'm not sure how good it is for more junior people, but the way it works is that they let companies see your resume (anonymized) and then they contact you if the company likes you
<tjc_CareerMentor> so you can sit back and let emails from startups pour in, if startups are your thing :)
<marina> aokoye: plus you can attend meetups for technologies you want to use in your area and see what companies sponsor them
<aokoye> yeah that makes sense marina
<terriyu> I did get two job interviews through meetups, so it can be useful.  They weren't really great jobs, but it was something.
<tjc_CareerMentor> There's also the Geek Feminism classifieds: http://geekfeminism.org/2015/01/01/gf-classifieds-january-february-and-march-2015/
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I find meetups are good for the connections and as jody said-like glassdoor you can get a sense of whether or not it's a good place to work
<tjc_CareerMentor> And some mailing lists like Systers and Linuxchix that somebody else might be able to say more about
<tjc_CareerMentor> I've heard that those lists have job listings sometimes
<anna_> best way to get a referral ?
<tjc_CareerMentor> anna_: go to events, meet people, make friends :)
<tjc_CareerMentor> easier for some people than others
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Anna if you want to get a referral you have to meet people
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> you don't have to be their best friend, but you have to be close
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> think a co-worker that you've worked with in the past
<jody> I haven’t gotten a job connection via a meetup, but I’ve found them really enjoyable anyway. 
<tjc_CareerMentor> Friends of friends, too. Let your friends know you're looking for a job, and what kind
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> informational interviewing can be a good pathway for this
<anna_>  informational interviewing ?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> you ask someone for advice, start a relationship and then they end up helping you
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> So you find someone in Portland doing what you want to be doing
<terriyu> Systers was very helpful.  I had one job contact from it and people on the list gave good advice.
<jody> I’ve found that can be a good way to see which companies that have employees who are interested in learning.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> you email them, ask to buy them coffee and ask them about what they do, how they got their job
<tjc_CareerMentor> I have personally never done this because I used to be a lot more socially anxious, but it sounds like a great idea
<tjc_CareerMentor> Also: if you went to undergrad and/or grad school and your school has a career office, ask them if there's a directory of alums you can talk to
<tjc_CareerMentor> for example, my school keeps a database of alums who are willing to do informal career mentoring, and what fields they work in
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> even better go to www.linkedin.com/alumni
<marina> also working with a recruiter can be very productive - some other offers I had during the last job search where through recruiters - you just need to be selective in reviewing what positions they send your way
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and it will give you all alumni from your school on LinkedIn
<tjc_CareerMentor> That can be a great way to start up a connection with someone. often people are willing to help just based on the fact that you're earlier in your career and went to the same school 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree, if you're not sure about how to find a recruiter, I'd join some groups on LinkedIn and see what recruiters are members and who they're connected to
<marina> but what recruiters do is that they have a foot in the door for you, if you don't have it there any other way
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> when I was a recruiter I used LinkedIn groups all the time
<tjc_CareerMentor> in my experience, I don't have to look for recruiters, they find me :)
<anna_> so how close do I have to be to ask? I wouldn't even ask my parents for a referral :/
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> yeah tjc but entry level is a different story!
<tjc_CareerMentor> for example, I would get an unsolicited email on LinkedIn from a recruiter saying "I have X job at company Y"
<terriyu> if there are in person alumni events, definitely go to those.  I got a job contact from informally talking to alums at an event.
<tjc_CareerMentor> and I would say, "ok, what else do you have?" and often there would be something else
<jody> What are good groups to belong to on LinkedIN
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> anna, you seem anxious abou tit
<tjc_CareerMentor> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I know :) just explaining how it works sometimes
<marina> I'd recommend networking locally and asking people in the free software organization you are working with for advice, telling them about your interest, and seeing where they work first
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> maybe start with one person and ask them for advice-before you ask for a referral
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: if any schools you attended have a LinkedIn alum group, those are good ones to look for
<tjc_CareerMentor> I don't use the "groups" feature a lot myself
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> then you're starting a conversation, instead of going for the 'can you be my referral' ask first
<tjc_CareerMentor> Yeah, I agree with EBR_opw_careeradvisor -- you don't have to ask outright for a referral...
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> maybe you'll feel less nervous then?
<tjc_CareerMentor> Most people love being asked for advice
<terriyu> I would recommend improving your LinkedIn profile as well.  There are lots of tricks.  I know a good e-book for it, which is pretty inexpensive, if anyone is interested.
<tjc_CareerMentor> if you just say, "Hey, I know you work at ___, how did you get there, what's it like"
<tjc_CareerMentor> most people will answer
<tjc_CareerMentor> Then they might say, "hey, we have a job opening!"
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and to terriyu's point, you can also ask someone if you'er missing something from your LinkedIn profile
<tjc_CareerMentor> Remember that a lot of companies give referral bonuses -- if an employee refers someone who gets hired, they get paid a significant amount of extra money
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it will take them a few  minutes to take a look and you get the help you need
<tjc_CareerMentor> So, people have an incentive to refer you, at a lot of places
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> great point tjc
<tjc_CareerMentor> sometimes all you have to do is let them know you exist :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> people want to refer good people, so it doesn't hurt to ask
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> the worst thing they will do is ignore you
<tjc_CareerMentor> indeed
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> they won't yell at you or make you feel bad
<tjc_CareerMentor> Or if they do, you know you shouldn't be friends with that person anymore :) (but it's really unlikely)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> think about it this way-if someone asked you what it's like to be in #opw, you'd give them some info right? 
<tjc_CareerMentor> (since they're representing their company when they talk to you)
<terriyu> Here's a link to the ebook on improving your LinkedIn profile: http://theessayexpert.com/services-rates/linkedin-profiles/how-to-write-a-killer-linkedin-profile/
<anna_> tjc_CareerMentor, :P
<tjc_CareerMentor> Don't forget to also have a copy of your resume on your home page, if you have one
<tjc_CareerMentor> recruiters do still look for candidates the old-fashioned way (by searching for keywords on the web)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I haven't seen that one terriyu, but I've sat through a lot of LinkedIn workshops and helped a lot of people with their profiles and it looks like it's going over what you want to cover (summary, search functionality etc)
<terriyu> anna_: you can ask people on the Systers mailing list for advice and information interviews.  This would be low pressure and people on Systers love helping each other.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> recruiters absolutely do still search portfolios, but make sure you do have a resume up there
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> great idea terriyu
<tjc_CareerMentor> the way I found the job before my current one is that LinkedIn has the "people you might know" section...
<tjc_CareerMentor> I saw someone I'd met at conferences a couple times, and he was working at an unfamiliar company
<tjc_CareerMentor> I clicked in it and it looked interesting, so I sent him a connect request along with a message asking what the company was. that led to a job there
<terriyu> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I've met the author of that ebook in person.  She gave a great talk on improving LinkedIn profiles and that's how I ended up buying her ebook.
<tjc_CareerMentor> so, sometimes things like LinkedIn can help in a non-straightforward way
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<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> excellent-glad to hear it
<tjc_CareerMentor> Also, I should state the obvious: ask your OPW internship mentor for ideas about companies to look into :)
<terriyu> she also gives lifetime free updates to the ebook, so it's a great buy.  The updates come several times a year.
<tjc_CareerMentor> assuming you're interested in continuing the same line of work, anyway
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's nice-LInkedIn has changed their search functionality pretty frequently in the last two years
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<anna_> terriyu, will do thanks :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, asking your OPW mentor should be #1 in any step, regardless of where you want to go and what you want to do
<tjc_CareerMentor> They're there for you
<terriyu> jody: personally, most of the LinkedIn groups I've subscribed to aren't that great.  But the good thing is that when you join a LinkedIn group, you can see the profiles of the other members.  So that can be useful.
<terriyu> jody: at least, that's what I was told a couple years ago
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> for LinkedIn groups I find that local smaller niche groups can be very positive 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and as terriyu said, that allows you to see other people's profiles
<tjc_CareerMentor> So where I live -- Reno, Nevada -- there's a tech co-working space, and a makerspace
<tjc_CareerMentor> THe co-working space hosts a lot of events
<tjc_CareerMentor> I haven't been to the makerspace, but it would probably be a good way to network if I was into that kind of thing
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> co-working space events are usually a great way to meet people
<tjc_CareerMentor> So, even if you live in a smaller city, it's worth looking for resources like these
<tjc_CareerMentor> It can feel awkward just showing up someplace, but usually everyone's friendly
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> here in new york anyone who is interested in the 'alley' is all over those events
<terriyu> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: yes, the good LinkedIn groups I've joined have to do with a very niche topic -- PhD educated people trying to get out of academia and find good careers in industry
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: Reno, Nevada! We were just there.
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: Heh... a lot of people pass through :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely-those are the best groups to join-I've also had a lot of clients who have had success with groups based on associations like NY women in communications or NY women in advertising
<jody> tjc_CareerMentor: It’s my boyfriend’s hometown so we spend quite a bit of time there. :-)
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: Ah, cool
<tjc_CareerMentor> Then I don't have to explain why Reno is actually really awesome ;)
<jody> No, you don’t! 
<tjc_CareerMentor> Along those lines, you can even find a fair amount of tech meetups, at least some places, searching for meetup.com
<tjc_CareerMentor> er, on meetup.com
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I also like groups because all of the recruiters I"ve worked with use them for recruiting
<tjc_CareerMentor> Of course, you never know what you're going to get, but people do use it seriously
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> so it can be a way to 'put yourself out there' 
<tjc_CareerMentor> If you enjoy that sort of thing, tweeting and blogging can also be good ways to make it so that more people know who you are...
<tjc_CareerMentor> I know OPW encourages everyone to do a blog about your project, and you can continue that
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's true-social media can be huge for networking
<tjc_CareerMentor> But, I wouldn't recommend doing those things if you don't enjoy writing. 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (if you're comfortable doing it)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> if you don't like social media-I wouldn't start there
<tjc_CareerMentor> You also *can* use a pseudonym -- if someone is interested enough in you (from a hiring perspective), they'll contact you anyway
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Absolutely-the work will speak for itself
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> *unless you use an offensive username!
<terriyu> as I was telling marina this afternoon, Hacker School is a great way to get a job.  If you can spare 3 months of your time to go live in New York.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> So don't start tweeting as @Ikillpuppies
<terriyu> though as far as I know Hacker School is US centric, so it would probably only be good for jobs in the US
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Hacker school is a great resource and New York has a really thriving scene-but I only recommend it if you think NY would be a good fit
<tjc_CareerMentor> how did you know my secret identity, EBR_opw_careeradvisor ;)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> oh no!
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would never hire you!
<tjc_CareerMentor> :D
<tjc_CareerMentor> Hacker School does have some funding available for women who get accepted, to cover living expenses
<tjc_CareerMentor> and it's a great way to get a job because companies pay *them* to be allowed to recruit their students
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> yes, the etsy scholarship program
<marina> terriyu: yes, we have had a lot of people do OP, then Hacker School, or vice versa, Hacker School, then OP
<jody> terriyu: I’ve often wonder if this is a good way to go. It seems expensive but I suppose it might be a good way to break into some of the more competitive environments.
<terriyu> I have a friend who did her PhD in linguistics and had no software experience, but she wanted to become a developer.  She went to Hacker School and on month after finishing at the school, she had 4 job offers.
<terriyu> s/on/one
<tjc_CareerMentor> Well, Hacker School doesn't charge anything, and if you can get the scholarship, you mightr be able to cover your living expenses too
<marina> they have recently expanded their funding to other minority groups, not just women
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's great news marina
<tjc_CareerMentor> There are other "code schools" with similar names that charge a lot of money. some are good, some not
<tjc_CareerMentor> marina: that's great to know, I hadn't heard
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I haven't had success with the NY codeacademy
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (some students I worked with at Columbia had issues with them)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but I have heard very positive things about students who have paid for programming classes at General Assembly in NY
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but that isn't as intensive as hacker school
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think for most people who have completed an OPW internship, more "code school" stuff isn't necessary for learning, but it could be good for networking
<tjc_CareerMentor> so I'd say look at it from that perspective
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and neither offer financial assistance
<jody> Right, the Hacker School is funded by someone else. What about silicon valley?
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<tjc_CareerMentor> I don't know of any Hacker-School-like programs in the Valley
<terriyu> as tjc_CareerMentor says, Hacker School has deals with sponsors that want to hire their students.  And Hacker School also reserves Fridays for practicing technical interviews.
<tjc_CareerMentor> there are some pay-to-play ones
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I don't know of any free/cheap programs in silicon valley either
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've heard of coding dojo-but I don't know how affordable it is
<tjc_CareerMentor> what the Valley does have is the Hacker Dojo; sort of a hackspace/coworking space where you can pay for a membership which is partly for space to work and partly for the privilege of hearing about everyone's startup :)
<marina> https://www.hackerschool.com/diversity
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> or how seriously the relationships they have with companies
<tjc_CareerMentor> you can also sit at Red Rock Cafe in Mountain View and do the same thing for the price of a coffee :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would do a search on wired.com for coding courses in silicon valley-that way you can find some more mainstream ones
<terriyu> jody: I haven't gone to Hacker School, but everyone I've talked to has loved it.  And they have an amazing community.  It's a lot less isolating than sitting in front of the computer by yourself.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but I do think you'll end up paying for all of them
<jody> terriyu: It sounds great, but to be honest, I don’t think I’m a NYC type of gal. ;-)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's ok jody, not everyone is!
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<terriyu> jody: you only have to live there for 3 months.  You can find a job anywhere in the US afterwards.  But if you're uncomfortable with NYC, maybe someone else knows other options.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Plus jody, it seems like you have a good basis and are looking to learn on the job, rather than at a school-but I came into the conversation late so I could be wrong
<jody> terriyu: I was at one point thinking of some of the one’s in SF, but I would rather see where I could work at other than SF, NYC, Chicago etc…
<jody> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: Yes, learning on the job would be preferable.
<terriyu> jody: There is Hackbright Academy, which is a code school for women.  But it costs a lot of money.  And I don't know much about it.
<terriyu> jody: Hackbright Academy is in SF.
<tjc_CareerMentor> the good thing about it is that you get paid :) (for learning on the job)
<tjc_CareerMentor> I've heard some not-so-great things about Hackbright
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I haven't heard of hackbright
<jody> Really, like what?
<tjc_CareerMentor> trying to find exactly what it was
<jody> I thought they were suppose to be one of the better ones. :/
<tjc_CareerMentor> Well, for one thing, a guy who a lot of women find pretty creepy was a mentor for them for a while.
<tjc_CareerMentor> Not sure if he still is
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's a shame, I'm looking at their site now and it looks good
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<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> so jody it sounds like youre torn between more training from a school or going after a position where you can learn more
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but given the fact that you don't want to go to one of the big hotspots
<tjc_CareerMentor> if anyone in the Bay Area is looking for someplace to meet people, network, etc., there's an all-women's hacker/maker space called Double Union: https://www.doubleunion.org/
<jody> Not so much. The code schools were more of something that I was thinking about several months ago.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it might be better for you to find some locations there and look for some mentors there (of course, ask your mentor at opw about it first!)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> oh, ok
<marina> I found this: https://www.coursereport.com/resources/the-definitive-list-of-programming-bootcamp-scholarships
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's great Marina!
<jody> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I have a weird fascination with them. I am very curious to see what people think of them and how as a concept they will fair in the future. :-)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> well as someone who has worked for a lot of universities, some universities are scared of them
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (but mostly schools that have really old school CS departments)
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<jody> I can see that. They seem to embrace modern development more than universities.
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<jody> sorry modern development practices.
<terriyu> tjc_CareerMentor: I wanted to ask you about graduate school.  I looked at the last transcript and you seemed to have a lot of opinions about it...
<tjc_CareerMentor> terriyu: sure, ask away. I'm not sure what I already said in the last transcript :)
<terriyu> tjc_CareerMentor: is it really such a bad idea to get an MS in computer science?  Besides the fact that it costs time and money?  (disclosure: I am currently in an MS program)
<terriyu> (PhDs are a different topic, that I won't get into)
<tjc_CareerMentor> terriyu: I always give people the advice to not pay for grad school...
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I remember we were against getting an advanced degree unless you can afford it
<tjc_CareerMentor> which means applying for a Ph.D that's funded, and leaving with a master's
<tjc_CareerMentor> But
<tjc_CareerMentor> if you're already in the program, that's a different story :) I wouldn't recommend quitting unless there's something about your program that's really bothering you
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> also I have seen a lot of people who get ms degrees and don't end up making more money until they gain more experienc (depending on what they studied; area of expertise etc) 
<tjc_CareerMentor> When you quit, you have to explain to everybody why you quit (take it from me)
<tjc_CareerMentor> Yeah, it's not just an MS that matters, but where it's from
<terriyu> I'm currently studying machiine learning at a top AI program
<terriyu> s/machiine/machine
<tjc_CareerMentor> Well, that sounds worth finishing if you're reasonably happy in the program
<tjc_CareerMentor> I would recommend to most people that they get some work experience, at least, before going for a master's. just seeing what it's like
<terriyu> I didn't have funding for the first semester, but I found an RA for next semester
<tjc_CareerMentor> but again, different if you're already there :)
<terriyu> I did a couple internships already, if that counts as work experience
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> is your RA position something that can translate to the industry? 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> if so, it sounds like you're in good shape
<tjc_CareerMentor> it depends on where, but internships are often not representative of what it would be like to work at the same company, because in a way, the company is trying to convince you to work there later on
<sanjien> Hello, I was thinking of going for master's degree. Is it a  good idea if I can afford it. I'm from India and I would like to do it here itself.
<tjc_CareerMentor> sanjien, are you coming straight out of undergrad?
<terriyu> I think so.  My advisor works on natural language processing and data science.   The aims of the project are academic, but it sounds like the tools we're going to use are pretty practical.
<sanjien> I was opw intern long back :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> then it sounds like you're setting yourself up well terriyu-I would encourage you to stay in touch with people from your old internships and people who are working, but you're doing the right thing
<sanjien> tjc_CareerMentor : No I'm on break for three years out of college undergrad
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Indian companies have a lot of respect for masters degrees-would you want to stay there, or leave India after the degree?
<tjc_CareerMentor> sanjien: I guess the better question is: have you gotten work experience (aside from internships) since college?
<sanjien> No I have no experience. And that's the reason I was looking for masters as the last option
<sanjien> I'm finding it difficult to find a job here
<tjc_CareerMentor> ordinarily I would recommend against it, but I'm American and what EBR_opw_careeradvisor said above ^ about Indian companies gives me pause
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I don't recommend getting a masters if it's your last option
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I do know things are a little different in India than they are in the US (I'm no expert though) 
<tjc_CareerMentor> I went directly from undergrad to a Ph.D program...
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<tjc_CareerMentor> I left with a master's (from a "good" school, Berkeley) and I found it hard to get a job right afterward
<sanjien> Okay, thanks
<tjc_CareerMentor> because I still had no work experience
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but you would need to really hustle in your degree and make sure you get some industry contacts-otherwise you could end up in the same boat but just with a bigger degree
<tjc_CareerMentor> right
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> also remember-volunteering counts as work experience as long as you have something to show for it
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> only you myself and the wall need to know if you're not getting paid
<tjc_CareerMentor> Also, at least in US programs, master's students tend to get treated pretty badly
<tjc_CareerMentor> as in, faculty care less about them than about undergrads
<sanjien> That's the reason I fear if this is right thing to do
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and sometimes that can be the better investment rather than paying for a masters degree
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, there are far fewer resources for grad students in many schools
<tjc_CareerMentor> yes, you learn a lot by volunteering *and* you don't have to pay to volunteer :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and the career offices usually don't have targeted employer outreach
<tjc_CareerMentor> (beyond your own living expenses, but you would have to do that in school, too)
<tjc_CareerMentor> I never interacted with the career office at either school I went to grad school at
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> so you won't see the same vast list of companies you would for undergrad
<tjc_CareerMentor> I doubt they would have known what to suggest to me
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've worked at a few career offices, and the attitude was that grad students were so varied
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and also some companies flat out don't recruit for masters students
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> we would get companies all the time who would say 'we have internships for undergrads and we *may* consider grads for roles after graduation
<terriyu> in my master's program, out of 74 students, 32 are from India (and most of them seem to be women from looking around in my classes)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (this is different in India though-you'll need to get some local expertise on that, I'm afraid)
<sanjien> how do I start looking for job?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's the other thing terriyu, many grad schools in the US take a lot of international students
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and then the expectation is that they'll go home, so companies here percieve the degree as something other than it is
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> From a recruiters point of view, most companies want to see more work experience rather than schooling beyond undergrad in the US
<sanjien> I guess I don't know right way to do that. I'm jobless for last three years and have been trying hard to find a suitable job
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> not all, but many companies have that attitude
<tjc_CareerMentor> I agree
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, can you tell me about your search? what have you been doing so far?
<tjc_CareerMentor> the more formal education you have, the more you run the risk of getting called "overqualified" or being told "oh, you're a researcher, you'd be bored here"
<Canepa__> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: what’s a good way to find jobs that will pay you to learn? Should they be “jr developer” positions? Or is part-time or contract work potentially good? 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> It might be time for you to do some volunteering-get something new on your resume, and start networking your way into a job
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Canepa-I would look for both, part time, contract, and JR developer work
<tjc_CareerMentor> I would kind of recommend against contract work, actually -- 
<terriyu> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: the reason I'm doing a master's degree instead of finding a job is because I'm specializing in a topic that is hard to pick up on your own.  At least, I think machine learning is hard to learn well outside of school.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> start by tapping into your network (your mentor, your colleagues etc) and say that you're still starting out but you're ready to be working
<tjc_CareerMentor> unless you know exactly what you want to learn and are very self-directed, and the contract fits it
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> terriyu, you're right, machine learning isn't something you can walk right into
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<tjc_CareerMentor> the reason is that at least in the US, "contractor" has a very specific tax meaning and if you're a contractor, it would be illegal for your employer to mentor you
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<tjc_CareerMentor> (that would establish an employer/employee relationship)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You're right-the contract tax laws wouldn't work that way
<tjc_CareerMentor> part-time, though, is nice work if you can get it
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and the reason that grad school works for you terriyu, is that you know that you want to go into machine learning
<sanjien> EBR_opw_careeradvisor : I tried to find openings in some companies. I was contacted by facebook, google but without knowing my experience. I tried with ThoughtWorks too. Did one month internship under some initiative
<tjc_CareerMentor> I find part-time jobs in tech are hard to come by
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> if you didn't have the specificity it could go very wrong, but it sounds like you made the right decision
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, ok so some companies have reached out to you, and you had an internship, but haven't progressed beyond that
<sanjien> yeah right
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it also sounds like you're reaching out to companies that, in India, would do on-campus interviewing and you're too far out of school to be considered
<anna_> terriyu, can I ask how many internships you've done so far? 
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it might be worthwhile for you to look at some smaller companies
<terriyu> anna_: I've done two internships, one with OPW and another one with a startup
<sanjien> right
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would also try to do some networking-not sure if you're in a big city
<anna_> terriyu, ahh k cool :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but I think that if you're going after the big label names, you'll have a harder time
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and you need to get a contact in India who can give you an idea of the local market. 
<jody> terriyu: I would highly suggest you maintain a network outside of school. Mentors often times do not have any connections outside of academia
<sanjien> I'm from small city, I have hard time to do some networking
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> marina, is there a way that sanjien can reach OPW mentors who would be in India?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, no problem, then I would start digitally-getting on IRC, LinkedIn and then you can branch out from there
<terriyu> jody: I do maintain a network.  I know people from college / high school and from OPW / open source.
<sanjien> thank you so much
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it also might be useful, sanjien to email some startups and offer to do some virtual work-that way you can build up your resume a little
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and it will allow you to network more virtually
<sanjien> Do I have to interview for that?
<jody> terriyu: Sorry, I’m getting confused by all the traffic.
<terriyu> jody: no problem, me too.
<sanjien> I have been on break, hence huge gap in my career, I fear I fail in interviews
<terriyu> sanjien: I share your fear of interviews.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> ok, so your interviews are holding you back
<marina> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: WFS India mailing list might be a good place to find a mentor or ideas for how to find one
<marina> http://www.wfs-india.org/mailing-list
<tjc_CareerMentor> So one way to deal with a fear of interviews is this:
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that's ok, because it's something you can practice
<tjc_CareerMentor> pick a few jobs that you think you might be interested in, but that you probably don't want
<tjc_CareerMentor> apply
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> thanks marina!
<tjc_CareerMentor> if you get offered an interview, go
<sanjien> terriyu: that's really a  nightmare
<tjc_CareerMentor> do all this before you interview for a job you really care about
<tjc_CareerMentor> it gives you a chance to do a trial run
<tjc_CareerMentor> and who knows, it might turn out well!
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> practice makes perfect-some schools in the US offer mock interviews for alumni-not sure about India
<tjc_CareerMentor> I used to be scared of interviews; I found that the more I interviewed, the less I was afraid of it
<anna_> tjc_CareerMentor, that's a nice idea :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've also had recruiters who do mock interviews to help their candidates before a real one
<tjc_CareerMentor> again, think to yourself: "What's the worst that can happen?"
<terriyu> sanjien: yeah, I've had a few interviews and I think the only way to get over your fear is to do as many interviews as possible
<tjc_CareerMentor> the absolute worst that can happen is that the company never gets back to you
<tjc_CareerMentor> and that does happen
<tjc_CareerMentor> But, they won't laugh in your face; that won't do them any good
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, no interviewer ever laughs in someone's face
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> here's an uplifting thought:
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> every interviewer WANTS YOU TO BE THE RIGHT CHOICE
<tjc_CareerMentor> right
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> they don't want to interview anyone else
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> they want you to be the fit-maybe you are, maybe you're not
<tjc_CareerMentor> I've been on the other side of it. I'm investing my time in interviewing someone. For me it takes a lot of time and energy.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but they're never NOT rooting for you
<tjc_CareerMentor> Whoever I'm talking to, I *want* them to be the right one.
<tjc_CareerMentor> yeah
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> they would ideally like it to work out
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> so your job in an interview is to keep them thinking that way
<tjc_CareerMentor> Also, when I was afraid of interviews, one thing I was afraid of was getting a question I didn't know how to answer
<tjc_CareerMentor> and standing there going "uh"
<CultureD> That is such a comforting thought
<tjc_CareerMentor> I learned over time that when that happens, it's actually okay to say "I don't know"
<tjc_CareerMentor> the world doesn't fall apart :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and it's ok to say I don't know
<terriyu> sanjien: also companies will frequently tell you ahead of time what they will test on.  If they don't, you should ask.  It seems like most of the companies test similar material, so it's something you can prepare for.
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> or I'm not sure but here's how I would find out
<tjc_CareerMentor> sometimes the interviewer will move on, or sometimes they'll explain things more and you may realize you *do* know, it's just different vocabulary
<tjc_CareerMentor> but there's always a way out of it and it pretty much always saves face for both of you
<tjc_CareerMentor> because as EBR_opw_careeradvisor said, the interviewer *wants* it to go well
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely-one of the reasons job interviews exist is because different companies say the same things in different languages
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Most interviews will have two parts: the technological questions (which you can practice for)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and the behavioral questions (which you can ALSO practice for)
<tjc_CareerMentor> I've interviewed a lot of people now and I've actually almost never gotten a candidate who was poorly prepared
<sanjien> how can I reach out to you people in case I need help?
<tjc_CareerMentor> Of course, a lot of unprepared people get filtered out
<tjc_CareerMentor> But when I've thought "wow, I don't want to hire that person" it was almost always an attitude person
<tjc_CareerMentor> where I thought someone was arrogant or would be bad to work with
<tjc_CareerMentor> I think oftentimes, people are afraid of seeming ill-prepared, but that's actually not a likely thing to happen
<tjc_CareerMentor> People have told me "I don't know" in interviews plenty of times, and I assume I asked too hard a question, usually, and move on
<tjc_CareerMentor> try something else
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, I would look up mentors in your area and ask if they might do a mock phone interview with you
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, you can also email us-we're on the listserve
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<sanjien> thanks, but I'm not sure how it works
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, usually when someone doesn't get hired, it's rarely because they didn't know what they were talking about
<tjc_CareerMentor> And we have 7 more minutes, so if anyone was holding back any questions, now's the time :)
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<jody> I said I didn’t know something the other day in an interview and the interviewer sounded relieve to hear that rather than some baloney that I tried to make up.
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody, exactly
<tjc_CareerMentor> I would rather just hear "I don't know" than have them fake something out
<tjc_CareerMentor> if every question is "I don't know" that's a different story, but that hasn't happened in my experience
<sanjien> Do I have to send my resume first?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, if you don't know and pretend it is the worse answer
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, nope
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would start by doing some research on who you'd like to reach out to (asking mentors etc)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> then finding companies and organizations to go after (using the mentors/alumni help)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and then do some practice interviewing to feel more comfortable
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would take a step back from sending resumes right now and focus on building skills and relationships
<tjc_CareerMentor> Does anyone else have strategies they want to share for overcoming fear of interviews, or even overcoming discomfort with networking or professional relationship-building?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (and again, TJC and I know a lot about job searching, but little about your local market, so finding out what is near you will be a big priority)
<sanjien> Thanks, I really need to build skills and contacts who can help me
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> sanjien, great, WFS India mailing list might be a good place to find a mentor or ideas for how to find one
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> it seems like we're wrapping up right on time
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> this has been a really great discussion, guys!
<tjc_CareerMentor> Yes, thanks everyone!
<terriyu> thank you EBR_opw_careeradvisor and tjc_CareerMentor !
<sanjien> thanks for helping out!
<tjc_CareerMentor> Feel free to email me at catamorphism@gmail.com with any followup questions...
<marina> thank you EBR_opw_careeradvisor and tjc_CareerMentor! you are fantastic at this!!!
<tjc_CareerMentor> I'm happy to look over people's resumes, although how fast I can reply varies a lot :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> we'll be posting some Feb career advising hours shortly-I have to check my calendar
<tjc_CareerMentor> thank you marina!
<jody> EBR_opw_careeradvisor and tjc_CareerMentor: Thank you so much for spending the time to answer all our questions! :_)
<jody> :-)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> thanks so much for your great questions!
<tjc_CareerMentor> jody: you're welcome! It's exciting to be able to help people get started in their careers
<tjc_CareerMentor> gives me a fresh perspective myself :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> me too!
<CultureD> Thanks you both! This was very helpful :)
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> glad to help!
<sanjien> tjc_CareerMentor: Can I send one to you to have ideas like where I can improve and how to go about it?
<jody> Thanks to Marina for all the great links.
<anna_> thank you guys :)
<marina> op-career-advisors@gnome.org reaches both tjc_CareerMentor and EBR_opw_careeradvisor - if any mentor is reading this, we'd be happy to add you to this alias :)
<marina> jody: of course!
<tjc_CareerMentor> sanjien: Sure, I can usually be the most helpful in response to specific questions, but I can also just look it over and see if anything jumps out at me
<terriyu> marina: is that opw- in the email?
<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> have a great night or day depending on where you are
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<tjc_CareerMentor> and you probably want to email that opw-career-advisors alias ^ so that you can reach both me and Erin, and get a faster response
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<tjc_CareerMentor> unless there's something you want to specifically ask me :)
<tjc_CareerMentor> OK, I'm going to sign off too. until next month! :)
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<sanjien> marina thanks for the list, again is it opw or op?
<marina> terriyu: no, just op- for Outreach Program since we expanded to include Ascend Project graduates, regardless of gender
<terriyu> marina: ah, good to know
<marina> it's listed here: https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen/Resources/Career
<exploreshaifali> marina, do we have irc logs for this channel?
<marina> exploreshaifali: no, we don't, but we post career meeting logs - I'll have to double check with EBR and tjc about this one, but you can view some previous ones at https://wiki.gnome.org/OutreachProgramForWomen/Meetings
<exploreshaifali> marina, okay, Thanks :)
<marina> welcome :)
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<terriyu> marina: I think the second office hours (from Nov 2014) hasn't been posted yet.  Someone asked me about it.
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<marina> terriyu: yes, I will follow up with EBR about it too