<EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Ok, the same thing with my client <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I'll make the numbers simpler, but when asked, he said his salary range is around 45-65K <sphoorti> I just started working full time. But since it being my first job, I didnt negotiate <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> then the company came back with an offer of 42K <pytess> ok <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> He asked for more, and they said that while they couldn't give him more salary, they could give him a bonus of 5K <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> They also offered him a lot of incentives-tuition reimbursement, health, retirement benefits and 15 days off plus sick days <exploreshaifali> ok <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I hear you sphoorti, I didn't negotiate my first job either <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> So he's not sure if he should take it because the money is too low * tapasweni (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #opw <pytess> neither me.i <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So, something I didn't appreciate when I was starting out, about salary, is this: <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I thought I didn't really care about money -- I grew up poor, so any tech salary seemed like a lot to me <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Good point TJC! <sphoorti> I agree with TJC_opw_careeradvisor <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but much later, I realized that when an employer is paying you more money up front, they feel they're making an investment in you... <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So, unfortunately, the more they pay you as a starting salary, the better they're going to treat you when they're working there <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> They feel they have to justify their expenditure on you * maverick_ (~email@example.com) has joined #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Unfortunately, when somebody doesn't negotiate, or does state a range but then accepts a lower salary anyway, they're more likely to be treated as expendable or as interchangeable with other people <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> That's a really good point-and they also have the expectation that you're not going to leave-because they paid you well <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Right <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> also remember-the worst thing they're going to do is not pay you more <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> they will never rescind the job <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, I find that a lot of people -- especially women -- are worried that an employer will get offended if they ask for more money <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and in most cases they do give you more money and like Tim said, they treat you better <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> in my experience, this doesn't happen; like Erin said, the worst you can get is "no" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> In tech, whenever an employer makes an offer, they expect you're going to ask for more than that. Even with a first job. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've had many clients who didn't ask for their first job, and then when they asked for a raise, were told 'we can only do 10%, so you should have negotiated more when you started if you wanted more." <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Sometimes even with internships! (Not OPW, though <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree-even small startups expect you to negotiate <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and if you don't, you can be leaving money on the table <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I want to bring up something Tim said earlier-he said he sees a lot of women who are worried about offending <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I also have seen a lot of women feel guilty about asking for more <pytess> how can we figure out our worth in industry,and how much the company an afford to give <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Excellent question pytess! <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Start by doing your research-you'll hit all of the boring sites first (salary.com, simplyhired.com glassdoor.com) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> just so you have a basis of what people are reporting online <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Then talk to your mentors and colleagues <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> "I'm thinking of asking for $30/hour for this freelance job-is that in the normal range for a position like this?" * Canepa (~Canepa@71-34-70-246.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #opw <pytess> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: thanks <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Those are all good suggestions -- I'd like to add one more thing, though <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Ideally, negotiations go like this, as part of an in-person interview: <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> employer: "So, what's your expected salary range?" <tuxilina> but what happens when you apply for your dream job, and get rejected because you asked too much? that's one thing I personally take into consideration when negotiating. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> you: "Well, I'm just starting out; what do you think is the fair market range in this area?" <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Exactly TJC nails it-try to get them to give the first number <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> employer: "Usually, [more money than you dreamed of] to [even more money than that]" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> you: "Okay... " and then you ask for something in the middle <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's always best if you can coax them into giving more information first <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Do as much work as you can to get the employer to give the number first <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and in my experience, when that works, the baseline figure they give is more than you were going to ask for <vkmc> what if they don't know how much is it... because salaries in your country are truly variable? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> good question, vkmc <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Memorize a sentence like the one TJC mentions above "given my internship experience and position, I'm looking for a standard market rate" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I think if it's anything but a very small/new startup... <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> they're going to have hired people like you before <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> practice in the mirror, or film yourself on your phone <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> so they will know what they're paying those people <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> They may even go back and forth a few times. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> if it's a super, super small startup, then maybe not, and that's where doing research (like Erin suggested) comes in <pytess> i am working in a small startup. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Them: What are you looking for? You: I'm looking to be paid in line with the duties and my experience Them: But what salary do you want You: I want a salary in line with the industry, what figures are you thinking about Them: We need to know what you need to make You: I'm being flexible <mahatic_> how relevant is your current salary while negotiating? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> mahatic, is your current salary in tech? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> or are you transitioning from another industry? * Services has left irc.gnome.org (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Because if your last job isn't relevant to the duties you will be doing, it might not be relevant, and you could be underpaid/overpaid * shipra (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #opw <mahatic_> yes. tech <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Then it would be appropriate to say 'at my last job I was making X, but due to the increase in responsibility, and increase in skills from my OPW internship and experience I'm looking to make more than that." HOWEVER, I would still do as much work as possible to let them give the first number-as Tim said, it's usually higher than what you're asking for. * Services (~Services@signal.gnome.org) has joined #opw * shipra is now known as remya <mahatic_> okay. Is it relevant or necessary that you give your current salary number while negotiating? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah. Also, really be mentally prepared to flip the question around if they ask you for a range... <sphoorti> so we have to be confident and firm while specifying this <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> ? <mahatic_> considering that it is tech too. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You let them give the first number, then if it's less than you're making now, you can say "at my last job I was making X, and given that I've increased my skills and experience, I would love to be moving forward, is there room to negotiate" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> For example, I interviewed at a big company where the first interview of the day was with an HR person <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and basically the first question out of her mouth was "Salary range?" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and I was so flustered that I said what I was thinking, without asking her to give me the numbers first <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Absolutely, you have to be confident and firm-a lot of women are taught it's not polite to talk about money <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So, be prepared for interviewers to be tricky about that, especially at big companies <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and so you have to get comfortable saying 'my range is 1-2 million dollars' (or whatever your range is) <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yup. You also don't need to explain your range or apologize for it... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, some big companies use that tactic, to be off-putting <sphoorti> and what in case of international relocations ? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's the norm for somebody to say, "My range is, _____" and then wait for a response <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Exactly, there's nothing wrong with your range-and nothing wrong with the silence that follows it <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Be comfortable with the silence, it's hard to do, but necessary <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, that's another good piece of advice I've received: don't be afraid of silence * Canepa has left irc.gnome.org (Canepa) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> So you're looking for relocation funds sphoorti? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> if you don't say anything, that means the interviewer will eventually have to say *something*. It's a subtle way of asserting power * galgeek (~email@example.com) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> exactly TJC-you're not there to be polite, you're there to assert for yourself, and while you'll be nervous, it's ok to put it out there and then be quiet <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yup. While I have never done this myself, you could even try role-playing some interview scenarios with a friend <sphoorti> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I am basically saying that in country X the salary might be good enough but how do we compare or negotiate for country Y ? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> get your friend to play the surly interviewer, then switch roles <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> The same advice applies for not giving a number. "I'd like to be making a salary that's in line with other people with my experience." then WAIT, let the silence hang * sandaru has left #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor>sphoorti and others who are changing countries -- I highly recommend looking at glassdoor.com to get a sense for what salaries are for the positions you're looking at * sandaru (~Dinu@18.104.22.168) has joined #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and also asking anyone and everyone you know who's already in the country you want to move to... * Canepa (~Canepa@71-34-70-246.ptld.qwest.net) has joined #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> In some cultures there are taboos against talking about salary, but keep in mind that those taboos mainly exist to protect employers' wealth, not you or your friends <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> so, break the taboos <sphoorti> Yep. But sometimes it so happens that the process happens so quickly, one hardly gets decent time to research <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Absolutely... * ankita (uid16503@2604:8300:100:200b:6667:3:0:4077) has joined #opw <sphoorti> What should we do in that case ? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Which brings me to a piece of advice that isn't just about salaries: <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> When things are happening quickly, that's when you want to focus on letting them give the first number <sphoorti> Should we ask for more time from the interviewer ? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and remembering that you don't have to answer right away <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> If you're feeling desperate to take the first offer that comes along, ask yourself why mahatic_ okay. say the market value is X and the current tech salary that I am earning is less than that, then how should it procees? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I mean, yeah, you have to eat, but ideally you'd like to be in your first job for a year or more, so it's a big decision <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> "this is a great offer, but I need a few days to think about it." Then go do your research <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I personally have been in situations where I felt like I had to stay in a bad job because I wouldn't get anything better <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's like being in an abusive relationship <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> TJC it's so true <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> so a way to avoid it is to take your time in the beginning, which will remind you that you have options <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and yes, I second asking for more time.. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> remember, you're going to be at that job for a lot of hours during the week-sometimes more than you spend with your friends/family! * sandaru has left irc.gnome.org (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <sphoorti> totally agrees EBR_opw_careeradvisor <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Especially with startups, often recruiters or hiring managers will act like it's super urgent that you make a decision now now now <pytess> yes <pytess> thats true <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> And it's ok to advocate for your own time and say that you need to think about it <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> And this is usually just part of the game that startups play. it's not really that urgent. So ask for more time; almost always, they'll let you have it <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and think about it: if a startup needs you to start tomorrow because they are so backed up and they can't even given you a little time to think: is that the type of place you want to work? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Like Tim says, most hiring managers (especially at startups) see negotiation as a kind of a game <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> And if you play by their rules you can end up with less money, or worse, in an abusive relationship job (which usually happens to everyone at some point, but is worth trying to avoid) <Canepa> Is there an agreed upon format for asking questions here? * mindy (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> No-ask away Canepa! <Canepa> Just dropping in <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> We've been talking about salary negotiations but are open to any questions you may have * sandaru (~Dinu@22.214.171.124) has joined #opw <aj9> I want advice for starting career in data science, with having very less knowledge in same <Canepa> My immediate plans after the internship (or even a little before it ends) is to start maternity leave! I am hoping to look for part-time work a couple months after having a baby. Is there a good place/site to look for that kind of work? Or a certain type of work that’s easier to find for part-time? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Canepa, are you looking for work during your maternity leave or after it? <Canepa> after it <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Ok good cause it can be really tricky to explain to employers working through a maternity leave <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> first of all, there are part time positions that come through our listserve <Canepa> that’s cool <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> There are also short-term/contract positions that may be more flexible about hours <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> in the US, the downside with contract positions is that you won't have benefits <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> of course, often the same is true for any part-time position * sarahsharp (~email@example.com) has joined #opw <Canepa> How common are part-time/short-term/contract positions? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You're going to try a few different things 1) reaching out to mentors/friends colleagues letting them know once you're available <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You also (when your leave is over) will update your LinkedIn to say Freelance Programmer (or whatever title you're using) <pytess> i am working in startup.its been lesss than six months.I got this awsome opportunity at mozilla,can i negotiate with my employeer for a part time job <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that way recruiters who are looking for freelancers can easily find you <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> There are some job search sites which specialize in p/t work, however, I don't know if they would have jobs specific to you (I have heard that flexjobs.com has a growing tech listing, but I don't know if it aligns with your skills/background <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but either way you want do do a mix of 1) looking at postings 2) networking to get new clients and 3) applying directly to companies that you think you would be a good fit for, regardless of whether they have a job posted and 4) making yourself available (like on LinkedIn) so that new people can find you <Canepa> Is there an open source part-time/freelance site/source other than the FOSS OPW list serve? <Canepa> I know Open Hatch might have listing like that <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess, absolutely you can negotiate <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've heard a lot of good things about Open Hatch-although I'll be honest I haven't looked specifically for P/t <sphoorti> Canepa: Have you joined systers mailing list ? I came to know about couple of part time opportunities there <Canepa> no, I haven’t yet but can <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> There's no guarantee that your negotiation will give you a p/t position pytess-as they may have needs that surpass p/t hours, but it's always worth asking, or asking if the position can be turned into p/t or flex time further down the road <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> again, the worst they can say is no <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah. In my experience, a lot of tech companies in the US are pretty anti-part-time-work... <sphoorti> Canepa: sure <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> they want to own your entire soul, basically <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and say "we want people who are really committed" if you ask <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> But, I've asked about part-time work at a company, been told no, and then gotten hired full-time anyway <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So again, they won't be so offended as to not offer you a job. Worst case, they say "no" <pytess> will working remotly from home decrease my chance for getting selected later when i apply for a full time office post <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> in terms of jobs, I think I'm legally obliged list the FSF jobs board, OPW's list and the liberationtech-jobs mailing list <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> pytess: You mean, applying for a full-time office job at the same company? Or a different one? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Good point TJC <Canepa> Will there be another session like this for OPW interns? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Absolutely, TJC and I are working on hours for December and January <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> So this won't be the last time you hear from us <Canepa> Sweet, because I have to go now. <pytess> TJC:yes <pytess> sorry different company <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Then I'd say, pytess, that it's not a disadvantage <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> no problem, Canepa hope this was helpful <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Having previous experience working remotely helps get another job working remotely... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> we'll also be posting the transcripts so you can go back and read <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but I don't see any negative effect if you're moving to being in an office <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> in fact, it's a strength, because it shows you can work independently <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> The only thing is that (at least for me) working at home is so nice that you might not want to go back to an office <pytess> ok.thats nice to know.:) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, most employers don't see working remotely as a red flag-unless you've been working remotely for 10 years and you can't in your next job <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I have the same experience with working from home-going back to an office was tough! <pytess> ok * Canepa has left irc.gnome.org (Canepa) <pytess> i am currenly working on django a python framework.will the experience be relavant if shift to rubyonrails <exploreshaifali> yes that is what I also what to know <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess, it won't be completely irrelevant <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> My rule of thumb is that good employers don't care so much about ticking off a list of specific frameworks... <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> They care a little bit, because it takes time to learn things <exploreshaifali> if we shift the field how much it affect <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely TJC <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but the things that are actually important, and rare, in engineers, are language/framework-independent <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and a good employer will take the time to talk to you enough to assess that <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> If they're hiring you for rubyonrails they will be most focused on that <pytess> the point is i would like to have a experience on everyfield before i can choose <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> For my most recent job, I got hired to program in a language that I had never used when I started... * julima (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and they knew that, and said later that while they could have hired somebody who already knew the language... <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> there were other things that were important and I had those things <pytess> i would like to try javascrpt django etc <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> (which I take to mean being collaborative, knowing how to ask questions/do research, etc.) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely, the language is important, but if you can demonstrate problem solving skills in another language that is still relevant <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and pytess, learning about multiple platforms will never hurt you <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> There *are* job descriptions you'll see that are very focused on knowing some very specific language and/or tools <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> To me that's always a red flag <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I assume that the person writing the description doesn't really know what they want, so they're writing down keywords <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Recruiters have a term that is called a lot of things but it's the purple unicorn where we get an employer who asks for 'django, ruby, rubyonrails, C, C+,C#....etc etc" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Or, you know, the one who asks for "20 years of experience with Java" <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and I know that the engineers don't want someone who is an expert is every single platform <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> (Java has only existed for 18 years <pytess> <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> exactly-I love the ask for X years of a program that has only been around for so long <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So here's another point that reminds me of <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> job descriptions are usually written as descriptions of an imaginary fantasy candidate <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> but what they usually want is someone who feels comfortable doing what Tim just did-jumping into something new and bringing their transferable skills <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> also it's lazy recruiting <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> What I mean is, a "requirement" is rarely actually a hard requirement <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I mean, yeah, you should be able to explain why you fit their description, but that can mean fitting some of the requirements and having willingness to learn when it comes to others <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> people applying for jobs do this all the time, so it's not going to be looked upon as weird when you don't perfectly fit every requirement in a job description <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's expected <pytess> <sphoorti> TJC_opw_careeradvisor: and EBR_opw_careeradvisor thank you so much <sphoorti> all this is making so much sense <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely-there's this idea that they'll find the magical time traveler who worked on java for 18 years, went back in time and worked 2 additional years, but in most cases the candidate isn't a 100% match * sandaru1 (~Dinu@126.96.36.199) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Also I've seen a lot of instances where the team says "this person doesn't know as much about django as we'd like, but they get along with crazy client Calvin, which is more valuable to us' <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Or sometimes people say things like, "Well, I know this person doesn't have all the knowledge we'd like, but we really think he has potential and could learn..." <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and I say "he" because often this gets applied in a really sexist way <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> as we said earlier, you're going to spend a lot of time with these people, so they want someone who works well with them, and sometimes thinks like personality, work ethic and work style factor in <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> where men are given more benefit of the doubt. but that said, it's not *always* men who get that benefit of the doubt <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> TJC that's so true <pytess> i am interested in networking,schell scrpting,open source mvcs how i can club all these interests <pytess> i am confused <exploreshaifali> EBR_opw_careeradvisor, apart from language who much will it affect if we go for shift in core field, like from cloud computing to data science or web desigining <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I think that in some startups who have more men, they think that a woman might come in and make things uncomfortable <sphoorti> pytess: I work exactly on this in my full time job <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> It's totally fine to make a shift from cloud computing to data science etc <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I find it's pretty common for software people to shift fields <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> for one thing, trends changed <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You just have to clearly be able to explain a) why you're making the move b) how the shift is an asset and c) be clear about what you want going forward <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I started out as a programming language person, now I'm becoming more of a systems person <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but yeah, explaining how your previous skill set will help you build the new one is key <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> you also want to format your resume and LinkedIn to reflect the shift <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> that you were in cloud but now you're in graphic design <sphoorti> okay <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> That's where a summary section (which many people hate) on a resume or on LinkedIn can come in handy <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily endorse having a long summary on your resume, but... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> 5 years of experience in programming but now focusing on data science <pytess> i am the only woman in the company of 10 <pytess> <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it might be useful to write it anyway so you'll be prepared to tell your story in an interview <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> <pytess>, that's common with some (but not all) small companies <sphoorti> pytess: I am the only women in my team of 12 <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> TJC great point <pytess> great * sandaru has left irc.gnome.org (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess and sphoorti, do you ever get a chance to get involved in hiring? <tapasweni> Hi <tapasweni> I want to know about travel grants? Where all I can apply? I know this is a bit broad questions, but I know of very less organizations that provides travel grants. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> one of the things that I've noticed in smaller companies is that they are less likely to post jobs (and many postings result in more diverse applicants) <julima> hello! I´m Julia, from Argentina, I will be working in Evergreen <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> travel grants meaning grants to travel and do your own thing? or travel grants meaning that they'll pay for your travel for their company? <tapasweni> I'll be working with Linux kernel. <exploreshaifali> is it good to keep resume as short as possible ? <sphoorti> EBR_opw_careeradvisor: I just graduated and started working for past 4 months. And there are more employees in my company than the 12 from my team <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Resumes should be as short as possible-always a good rule of thumb <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Ah Sphoorti, great, I misunderstood <tapasweni> Travel grants as in for GHC, other conferences e.t.c. <tapasweni> travel grants meaning grants to travel and do your own thing. <tapasweni> Yes the first one. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> tapasweni, that's great, you want to participate in conferences-that's something you bring up during negotiations <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> negotiations aren't just for salary, you ask for money for development <exploreshaifali> EBR_opw_careeradvisor, or any boundation that resume should not be more than X pages ? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> you also want to ensure that you can 'sell' the conferences "it would be an asset for me to represent this company at this conference" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> exploreshaifali: If you're junior, it's good to try to make your resume one page <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> "junior" meaning you've had zero or one full-time jobs in the past (that's a rule of thumb) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> General rule of thumb is a resume should be 1 page for every 10 years-but that's in the field you're looking for. So if you worked 10 years in Retail but only 2 years in tech, your resume should be one page <exploreshaifali> TJC_opw_careeradvisor, okay, I am a college student at present <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, I would definitely say one page <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> then one page resume for you <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I raise an eyebrow if I see a new grad with a resume that's more than one page, unless, of course, they worked for years before going back to school or something like that <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, a new grad with a really long resume usually means that nobody ever sees that second page <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> As far as asking for things like money to go to conferences, I agree it's great to ask for that as part of job negotiations <pytess> is there any oopen source conference going to takeplace during internship period worth attending <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> But be sure to get it in writing, as part of your employment agreement <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> A few companies (like mine) have a policy that everyone gets to go to one "free" conference a year that you don't have to justify <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've heard of a few startups who admit that they can't afford more salary, but will pay for conferences, classes etc <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but in the absence of a policy like that, if you negotiate something extra, get it in writing <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I don't have that info about conferences taking place soon, but I will find out and send to the listserve <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> some managers will try to brush it off with, "Oh, sure, it's no, problem", but no matter how nice they seem... *in writing* <anow> Hello from Berlin! I want to shift from graphic design into tech. This is out of curiosity, longing for challenge and money reasons tooI f I have very broad interest and curiosity how can I orientate where to invest my time and power to learn new stuff? How can I find out, where I do fit best and where I can bring in lot of the knowledge I do have from other areas? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> pytess: For the May to August internship period, Open Source Bridge is a good conference to go to * vanya (~email@example.com) has joined #opw <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> http://opensourcebridge.org/ <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's known as the "social justice open source conference", with both technical talks and talks on things like mental health and impostor syndrome <vanya> Hello everyone! Sorry I got late. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Thanks TJC, and I'll do some more digging and send other conferences that might be a fit to the listserve <tapasweni> No. I'll be working with Linux Kernel these three months, and then I am planning to start my masters in CS. I know about Google provide travel grants for Europe, and some other organizations. Are there similar programs or something where I can apply for travel grants being a student? <sphoorti> tapasweni: I had got ADA initiatives travel grant to attend the Open Hardware Summit. Maybe you can even look for similar grants with ADA initiative <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> As a student, you're going to check with your library (most librarians have access to student grants databases) <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Also, if you have a specific conference you want to attend, many conferences have travel grants for students <tapasweni> oh. okay. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> That's a great point TJC-look at the conference website to get details * sandaru1 has left irc.gnome.org (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <pytess> i am working for 4 months.will i get any travel grant. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> If you don't see anything on the conference web site, consider just emailing the conference organizers to ask <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> you'd be surprised, sometimes you get a "yes" <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've heard of the same thing happening <exploreshaifali> TJC_opw_careeradvisor, yes that happend with me once <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> cool! <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> If there's one message you take away from todays' chat, it's always to ask <tapasweni> okay. cool. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> ask for salary ask for travel money <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yeah <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> ask for what you want-the worst thing they'll do is say no <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Totally agreed <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> some women (and it varies by culture) <sphoorti> Yeah I guess, we should just keep in mind that worse case scenario, they ll say no. But we might as well give it a try <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> my regrets in my career (and lifeare almost entirely about *not* asking... <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> they're not about asking <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> only ask when they feel guaranteed that someone will say yes <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and if that's the case, you have to train yourself to ask even if you don't know if they'll say yes * remya has left irc.gnome.org (Ping timeout: 600 seconds) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> exactly, you will never regret asking-even if you get a no! <exploreshaifali> EBR_opw_careeradvisor, <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Thanks a lot !!! <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So with learning to ask, and that kind of thing... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Also (and this is the last ask) ask your mentors! They're there to guide you and if you're confused or feeling like you have a silly question, don't be afraid to ask <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> A possible strategiy is to apply to a few extra jobs that you're not super thrilled about, just to get extra practice with interviewing and negotiating <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> So that you get to work out your anxieties about it in the context of a low-risk situation (where if you don't get the job, whatever, because you weren't thrilled about it anyway) <tapasweni> This time I got the benefit of :how to ask for travel grant from your company as well as the conferences directly, when I asked about the later one only. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I love that strategy-a job you don't really care about is great practice, and every job application and interview is a good experience <tapasweni> The benefits of asking.Thanks! * jpich has left irc.gnome.org (Leaving) * sandaru (~Dinu@188.8.131.52) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> There is something really empowering about applying for a job where you're not really invested, working out your anxieties as TJC said, and then being able to say "no sorry, this isn't for me" <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yup, and it's not wasting your or their time, because after all, it does give the employer a chance to win you over <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, I totally agree... when applying for my current job, I turned down an offer from another company first even though I didn't have any other offers yet... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Absolutely-I've had a lot of clients who have applied for a job thinking "this is just a safety" but then found something they really loved and ended up taking it <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> because I didn't feel like they were offering me anything close to enough money <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but it was a confidence-builder nonetheless, that this company wanted me <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, many people forget that when a company is interviewing you, you should also be interviewing them <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Yup. In fact, nowadays I go into interviews feeling like I'm interviewing them more than the other way <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I had a company that wanted me to recruit, but I did not like the setting-I was freelancing for them, and they asked me to interview for FT work <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> this is something that builds up with time and experience, of course <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and while the pay would have been fine, I knew it wasn't a good fit, so even though I had nothing else lined up, I turned down the job <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Along those lines? When an interviewer asks you if you have any questions, ALWAYS SAY YES <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> always have questions in mind that you want to ask them <pytess> i am always shy to ask about salary when my salary gets delayed * tuxilina has left irc.gnome.org (Leaving) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Oh Absolutely <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> You NEED to have a questino <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> (question) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess, what do you mean, when salary is delayed-are they not paying you on time? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> If you have a hard time thinking of questions, take a look at this blog post: http://www.drmaciver.com/2013/02/questions-for-prospective-employers/ <vanya> I've had bad experiences with my salary far too many times. So now I don't feel bad about asking anymore. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it's a great list of questions you can ask during interviews. (I've gotten the feedback "you're so prepared!" because I asked questions off that list <pytess> they are not paying me on time <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> One of my question for prospective employer tricks is to look at the press about the company "I read on mashable that you're thinking of expanding, what does that mean for the sys admin team?' <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, that's a great strategy <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and shows you've done your homework <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess, you need to not only ask, but also document, because you deserve to be paid for your work <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> how often is this happening? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> vanya, great point! it's better to ask rather than end up with a salary that doesn't reflect your work <pytess> i have been here only for four month.its the previos month got delayed * tita (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> ok, and did you ask or did they come to you with a resolution? <tita> hello everybody! <anow> about codex … what do I do, If my question got buried in chat history … ask it again? <pytess> i was so hesitant to ask.then asked.they aplogised,they said they will pay along with the next month <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: feel free to ask again. it's been a busy chat, which is great, but things can get lost <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> anow, yes, just ask again, don't apologize-we lose things all the time <pytess> its a startup .hence i am confused <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> pytess: I'd second Erin's suggestion of documenting everything. save emails by forwarding to yourself (some companies automatically delete emails after a short period of time) <vanya> I don't have much of an idea as to what is a good way to continue after the OPW internship. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> see what happens next month. if it turns out to be an isolated incident, fine. if it's not, then you have documentation <tita> does anybody has any news about the contracts? <anow> Here we go: I want to shift from graphic design into tech. This is out of curiosity, longing for challenge and money reasons tooI f I have very broad interest and curiosity how can I orientate where to invest my time and will to learn new stuff? How can I find out, where I do fit best and where I can bring in all the knowledge I do have from other areas? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> pytess, ok good, remember asking is completely ok and definitely save those emails in case it happens again <pytess> EBR,thanks <anow> hard question, i know <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: Do you have any particular ideas for things in tech you want to focus on? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Ok the graphic design to tech shift is excellent, some people think that picking a language that is design focused is the way to go, but I find it depends on the person <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Yes, it's always best to start with a preference anow, something that you like to do (since you'll be spending time to learn it) <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> tita-can you give me more details, are you talking about signing contracts <pytess> does a low GPA affect your career <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> pytess: it can affect your initial job, but not always <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> some companies ask for GPAs -- Google does, as far as I know <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but many companies don't care <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> once you have a job, in any case, it matters much, much less what you did in college <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> recent experience always counts for more <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree-GPA is usually used by more corporate companies, and usually only for entry level jobs <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Also, if your GPA in your major is better than your GPA overall, and you get asked for a GPA, mention *both* GPAs <anow> I´m oing my first moves in FOSS. I have a quick technical grasp. I was doing some coursera (like machine learning, just for fun) and I might get back to programming.. but I think, the thing I´m best in (also was in design) is weaving things together. connecting peopple from different areas having a understanding of different fields <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Experience is worth more than GPA <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> even if you're only asked for your overall GPA <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> yeah, experience is worth waaaay more than GPA <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> GPAs do matter for grad school, but *cough* don't go to grad school <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> (that's my personal opinion <tita> Marina sent us a welcome email on november 14th... she said that she have to send us the gnome contracts to sign them... I am a little worried because the due date is december 2 and I haven't received the contract yet... I wanted to know if it is just me or if everibody is iun the same situation <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> anow, so are you thinking that you'd have a programming role where you can also talk to designers? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: that kind of sounds like "project management", almost! <maverick_> Hello! I am a student from India and my immediate concern is to get a good thesis admit. What exactly do profs look for in a thesis condidate? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> tita, I'll check with Marina, but don't worry, we'll make sure your contract is signed, sealed and delivered by 12/2 <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> maverick_: are you talking about doing a thesis as part of your undergrad degree? <pytess> tita: i have not received any contract form either <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree TJC, it does feel like project management * tita has left irc.gnome.org (http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) <maverick_> tita: Dont worry. I think the contract mail hasn't been sent. Other people dont seemed to have received it. <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> also one last thing, I missed TJC's comment earlier about not going to grad school and I have to agree-be very very wary of graduate programs <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> the cost is quite high and it's not always needed <anow> Maybe, what kind of projects could that be for example? And how important is it to get extra official education or just learnin by doing could be a good way to go? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> thanks maverick <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I can talk in as much detail as you want about why I think people should avoid grad school, but only if people are interested <maverick_> your welcome <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> me too, and I went to grad school* (*for creative writing) <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: As far as jobs that might fit that, I kind of want to suggest looking at small startups -- you're likely to be able to get a chance to do a little bit of a lot of different things, including programming <anow> And I would also like to link to education (I did university teaching as well) - my OPW is in Wikipedia education program <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and yes, I also went to grad school (have a master's in CS, two attempts at doing a Ph.D in CS, neither of which ended well), so I speak from experience * tita (email@example.com) has joined #opw <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> anow, I would take a look at general assemblys course on project management-not for the course, (although you could take it if you'd like) but I think they have a really good description of what project management is all about <maverick_> I am interested in going to grad school. Could you please explain why you say they should be avoided? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: lots of universities have "educational technology" jobs if that sounds interesting <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I would also ask your mentor if they can put you in touch with any project managers for an informational interview <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> maverick_: Basically, doing a Ph.D means spending 6-7 years getting underpaid and having very few job prospects when you get out <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> in CS, having a Ph.D actually lowers your chances of getting a job, except in academia or an industry research lab <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> academic and research jobs are getting much, much scarcer than they used to be <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree anow take a look at universities for their technology jobs-many of them are on LinkedIn and it's pretty easy to network <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> On the other hand, getting a master's means (usually) that you pay for it yourself, and that's a lot of money <anow> TJC_opw_careeradvisor: can you explain a little bit more, what is a "educational technology" job - this sound very interesting <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree, the PhD track is a very difficult one <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> IMO, it's much better to get some experience, and then go back to school if you feel like it <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I've counseled Ivy League Phd grads who completey regret getting that CS degree <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> anow: Sure! My understanding is that it's a job that involves helping professors at a university (or maybe even teachers at a high school, though this is rarer) use technology in their teaching <exploreshaifali> I don't have much of an idea as to what is a good way to continue after the OPW internship <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> anow: yes, the thing about schools is that they WANT to use technology,b ut the faculty isnt' always trained in it <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> so you get to have a lot of interaction with different kinds of people, but you also get to be the expert on tech <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> so they need an intermediary to help out <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> exploreshaifali there are a lot of options: what do you want to do? Gain more experience, learn a new language, work full time? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> The other thing about grad school that I think is important to know is this: <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I think that grad school is still not given the same weight as work experience in many companies <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> If you do decide to go, and you go to a Ph.D program, you should never be paying tuition yourself <exploreshaifali> EBR_opw_careeradvisor, gain more experience in different field <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> a Ph.D program should always either give you a research assistantship that pays, or a teaching assistantship <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Excellent advice TJC-paying for grad school is a losing battle <exploreshaifali> I want to have taste of few more fields <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> research assistantship is preferable because that is the work that helps you complete your dissertation <pytess> i would like to know more abiut hackerschool <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> If you see a Ph.D program that isn't offering you a full ride (tuition remission, plus health insurance if applicable in that country) and a stipend, RUN AWAY <X019> TJC_opw_careeradvisor, what about a masters instead of a phd? <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> for master's programs, you're generally stuck paying for it. The way out of that is to apply for a Ph.D program, get accepted, and leave with a master's <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> then you get, basically, a fully funded master's. It is more difficult to get into Ph.D programs, of course. <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> that's because a master's program is a fundraiser for the department <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> exploreshaifali excellent, so your next steps would be figuring out the best way for you to explore-does that mean classes, does it mean more internships, you want to use this time to figure out the way you like to learn and explore <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> X019: I think a master's can be a lot more useful when it comes to getting a wider range of better-paying jobs in tech, but -- <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> I would still suggest not getting one straight out of undergrad. If you work for a few years first, you get more perspective and yo umight even have an employer who will pay for you to get a master's degree <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> (either taking time off work, or doing it part-time) <anow> as I´m going to do interviews with professors using the wikipedia education course pages, the networking is going to start right away.. and this sounds also tempting, because diversity in tech is another issue i´m interested in... <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> masters degree is also taxed a lot differently so if you're thinking of working/masters, you will get hit during tax season (in the U.S.) <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> pytess: I have't personally gone to Hacker School, but I do have friends who have gone both as residents and as students, and they've all spoken very highly of it <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I agree, the masters degree (and PhD) will always be there, working for a year or two will not hurt you (and will allow you to save money in the long run <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> it sounds like a really great program, and for women, they have some scholarships available to cover the cost of living in NYC <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I also know people who have gone to hacker school and I've only heard positives <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> Ok, so unfortunately we're going to wrap up now <pytess> <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> we'll post this transcript online <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> Also, the way that Hacker School works is that it's free of charge for students... <exploreshaifali> EBR_opw_careeradvisor, either more internships or good resources to learn about different areas <julima> I would like to know which are the posibilities after the internship. I´m a Graphic Designer in Argentina. I am interested in UX/UI but in my country there are few job offers. what do you suggest? <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and we'lll let you know about the next office hours <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> and employers pay Hacker School for the right to recruit their alums <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> which will be in December <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> so it's a very good path into a job <X019> awww k <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> but yes, alas I need to go too <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> and thank you guys-this has been great! <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> this was super fun, feel free to email me if you have any questions that didn't get answered or that you didn't want to ask in public <anow> thank you! <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> I also need to use the restroom! haha <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> my email address is catamorphism at gmail <sphoorti> TJC_opw_careeradvisor: EBR_opw_careeradvisor thank you so much <TJC_opw_careeradvisor> no problem <X019> thank you guys <EBR_opw_careeradvisor> absolutely, feel free to email us with any other queries!
OutreachProgramForWomen/Meetings/201411Career (last edited 2015-01-15 17:18:05 by MarinaZ)