1 - Wednesday June 24 2009, 23:22 - 2 philbull: I've seen a few screencasts from betterdesktop, for example 3 philbull: I'd like to get a collection of user tests together which the community as a whole can use 4 philbull: (Maybe not as fancy as betterdesktop's, though) 5 philbull: I'd also like to see us doing user tests of this sort as part of the routine of writing new documentation 6 7 - 23:41 - 8 philbull: hey, I'm off now. 'night 9 10 - Sunday June 28 2009, 21:49 - 11 - BrunoXLambert has joined the room 12 13 - 22:01 - 14 pcutler: shaunm: you here? 15 pcutler: who's here / present for the doc meeting? 16 * philbull is 17 * Gwaihir (Milo) is 18 * BrunoXLambert is 19 j1mc: hi all 20 * imp25 is here to listen 21 Gwaihir: hi j1mc! 22 pcutler: hi jim 23 j1mc: i'm at another mtg... won't get to participate much 24 * andre slacking and reading the backlog 25 pcutler: we'll get started and see if our fearless leader shows up 26 pcutler: agenda is here: http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/Meeting20090628 27 shaunm: I"m here 28 shaunm: sorry, was dropping off the cat at a friend's 29 pcutler: woscon recap: Not sure how many have been folowing along on planet gnome, but a few of us went to the Writing Open Source conference in Canada 2 weeks ago 30 pcutler: great 31 pcutler: our recap for the board on woscon is here: http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/Community/Woscon2009 32 33 - 22:06 - 34 pcutler: if people have seen the blog posts, any questions about the conference? 35 pcutler: Gwaihir, shaunm, philbull and myself were there 36 pcutler: or any of you above feel free to add your comments about woscon 37 pcutler: ok, next topic 38 pcutler: one of the things we talked about at woscon was "know your audience" 39 pcutler: and we talked about the docs team 40 pcutler: and thought it might help if we grouped our team in to 3 groups: writers, editors and translators 41 pcutler: and we started to re-do our wiki pages to reflect that (and they needed an update), but we still need to update those specific team pages 42 pcutler: http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject 43 pcutler: though Gwaihir has been working on the Translators page 44 pcutler: so if anyone has any ideas on information that should be shared with writers, editors or translators, including process or tools, let's get it on the wiki 45 Gwaihir: just a note: the translators page is more of a "get in touch with your team" 46 shaunm: so I was reading a thread on the xfce4-dev list from last month about documentation 47 shaunm: (this is on-topic, really) 48 shaunm: one of the things discussed was documentation translations 49 * claude is listening 50 shaunm: and a number of people seemed to feel that documentation translation is an additional skill 51 52 - 22:11 - 53 shaunm: and that there should probably be people who focus on doing just that 54 shaunm: it's not my role to tell translators how to structure their teams, of course. but would it be worthwhile for us to encourage translation teams to have a documentation liaison? 55 pcutler: i would think so - and I think Damned Lies would support it. Look at the difference for some translations teams in strings vs docs 56 - oliver has joined the room 57 claude: for small teams it's already a huge effort to get ui translations done 58 claude: so doc translations is often a nice-to-have for them 59 Gwaihir: I really think that as the GNOME Doc Team we should cheerlead for our docs to be translated, but it's complex, teams are small 60 shaunm: ok 61 shaunm: so I understand that most teams are understaffed. and I don't think we're going to see 100% documentation coverage any time soon 62 shaunm: in part because there's just a lot to translate, and that's just the way of the world 63 64 - 22:16 - 65 shaunm: I'm just thinking that documentation is a particular skill set, and translating documentation well is something that would be easier for somebody who's at least somewhat engaged with our team 66 shaunm: so the small teams have bigger problems to worry about. I'm absolutely not going to get on anyone's back 67 - BrunoXLambert has left the room 68 - james_w has left the room 69 - Gwaihir has left the room 70 - dino has left the room 71 - icez has left the room 72 pcutler: ok, one last thing before I turn it over to shaun, is we're committed to more team communication, including regular meetings, such as this one, which will be monthly 73 pcutler: darn netsplit :/ 74 shaunm: yeah 75 shaunm: you're turning it over to me? 76 pcutler: shaunm: yup, recap the gnome 2.28 / 3.0 mallard stuff you started to talk about wed 77 pcutler: but I'll give it a minute to see if the netsplit comes back 78 shaunm: oh, ok 79 andre: claude, it's also a question of tools in the translation teams. poedit and others can create a nice glossary, but i think many teams don't know or maybe some people use it but don't share 80 andre: when it comes to tools and collaboration javier also had some nice ideas: http://live.gnome.org/JavierJardon/ImproveDocumentation - but might be worth to discuss on the mailing list, i just don't want to get this lost 81 claude: andre: yep 82 * andre shuts up again 83 pcutler: the last thing about the meetings, in addition to this "formal" one, is we're going to schedule time where community members will be in irc 84 85 - 22:21 - 86 pcutler: that way, if anyone has questions, or is new, there's some time set aside to talk about anything related to docs 87 pcutler: i think based on turnout the last 2 weeks (we've done one each week) bi-weekly would probably be fine 88 pcutler: irc can be hit or miss, so I think it's a nice touch, personally 89 shaunm: pcutler: for the time being, sure. we can always up the frequency later 90 shaunm: but let's be careful that we don't stop doing them because of low turnout. persistence will pay off 91 - BrunoXLambert has joined the room 92 - icez has joined the room 93 shaunm: or, at least, non-persistence is guaranteed not to pay off, so we might as well try persistence 94 pcutler: heh, that's a good way to put it 95 - Gwaihir has joined the room 96 shaunm: ok, we have Gwaihir back 97 Gwaihir: sorry guys... I have a 10s lag here... 98 pcutler: yup, I think that's everyone except dino 99 - james_w has joined the room 100 - dino has joined the room 101 BrunoXLambert: 10 seconds lag sounds cool i got disconected 102 shaunm: now that we have everyone back 103 pcutler: np, you didn't miss anything important, just gave an update on community IRC meetings, and recommended bi-weekly time 104 Gwaihir: ok, great 105 shaunm: I'm not trying to demand anything out of the translation teams. 106 shaunm: all I meant was I think we should encourage at least the healthier teams to have somebody who maybe comes to a few of our meetings from time to time 107 shaunm: or subscribes to our list 108 109 - 22:26 - 110 * Gwaihir nods 111 shaunm: basically, "if you don't feel ready to tackle documentation in your team right now, no worries. if you're ready to tackle it, why don't you come hang out with us some?" 112 shaunm: just trying to open up communication 113 Gwaihir: we need more exposure for that, and the planet is a good media, we need to blog more often about this, I think people will somehow show up 114 shaunm: yeah 115 shaunm: so I don't think we need to assign anybody any action items about this right now. let's just continue trying to be chattier as a team 116 pcutler: write every day! 117 shaunm: man, that lasted two days for me 118 pcutler: shaunm: want to give an update on your plans for mallard and gnome-doc-utils / yelp for 2.28 and the challenges involved? 119 pcutler: and an update on the build work you did this weekend 120 shaunm: ok 121 122 - 22:32 - 123 shaunm: so after this meeting, I'm more or less out of things for the next three weeks 124 shaunm: I'll be back about a week or so before feature freeze, iirc 125 shaunm: so where we're at now is likely to be *close* to where we'll be for 2.28 126 shaunm: where we're at now: 127 shaunm: I've just added support for mallard documents into the build utilities in gnome-doc-utils 128 shaunm: you can now build, verify, and install your documents 129 shaunm: the documents won't show up in yelp, because there's no scrollkeeper/rarian integration 130 shaunm: I mean, you can view them in yelp, but they won't show up in the categorical listing of documents 131 shaunm: I plan on gutting that stuff for 3.0 anyway 132 shaunm: I still need to set up the mallard stylesheets for localization 133 shaunm: I did spend some time today addressing rtl issues in the mallard stylesheets 134 shaunm: stylesheet internationalization work is an evening of not terribly difficult work. unfortunately, I'm out of evenings 135 shaunm: um, I'll say more about that in a minute 136 137 - 22:37 - 138 shaunm: the other issue is xml2po. going from xml->po sort of works with the default mode of xml2po, although it's not as good as it could be 139 shaunm: e.g. you get placeholders for all inline markup, which is pretty sucky 140 shaunm: I'm told there are issues going po->xml 141 shaunm: fortunately, you don't need me for this, because I don't maintain xml2po 142 pcutler: shaunm: regarding the scrollkeeper / rarian integration, is that work DonS has done in the past? is there any chance of that making it in for 2.28? 143 shaunm: if DonS appears from the mist and does it, yes 144 shaunm: otherwise, very very unlikely 145 Gwaihir: danilo is the maintainer of xml2po, did he get back to you? 146 pcutler: ok, thanks 147 shaunm: I also don't think it's particularly important 148 shaunm: I'd be surprised if a substantial number of people access application help that way 149 pcutler: do we have to have that for an application like Empathy or Banshee to ship mallard documents in 2.28? 150 shaunm: no 151 shaunm: those applications will be able to open their help files in yelp 152 pcutler: got it, thanks 153 shaunm: you just won't be able to browse to their help files if you open yelp from the System menu or something 154 155 - 22:43 - 156 shaunm: so stylesheet localization 157 shaunm: anybody who's got decent familiarity with xslt could look at how it's done in the docbook stylesheets and do the work pretty easily 158 shaunm: I will try to check my email every day or two. but I probably won't check mailing list folders 159 shaunm: I also won't be able to commit anything 160 pcutler: enjoy your vacation 161 shaunm: but if anybody wants to do some xslt, jfdi, email me the patch for review, and I will try to get back to you as quickly as I can 162 shaunm: what else do you need to know about the current state of things? 163 pcutler: that's all I can think of, unless anyone has any questions? 164 shaunm: Gwaihir, philbull: did either of you do the build stuff for the empathy docs? 165 Gwaihir: shaunm: not yet, I'm waiting g-d-u to be in ubuntu dev version 166 167 - 22:48 - 168 pcutler: Gwaihir: do you think you'll ship the new empathy docs in 2.28, or is that too aggressive a timeline? 169 Gwaihir: james_w: any idea when g-d-u 0.17.2 will be in karmic? 170 james_w: Gwaihir: hey, you need g-d-u 0.17.2? 171 james_w: snap 172 Gwaihir: james_w: 173 james_w: I can do that now if you like 174 Gwaihir: james_w: lovely! 175 Gwaihir: pcutler: maybe it's possible to do it 176 Gwaihir: I can concentrate on that and have probably a good coverage of the application 177 pcutler: one last agenda point, we as a team are trying to be more involved as a community, including participating in downstream docs meetings where approrpriate, so if anyone ever wants us at a meeting, let us know 178 Gwaihir: at least the most used and requested features and questions that could arise from those features 179 pcutler: Gwaihir: cool 180 pcutler: that's it for the formal agenda, what kind of questions / comments are there? 181 shaunm: oh, I will roll a yelp release tonight 182 shaunm: for that pesky bug I fixed for pcutler 183 pcutler: oh, and we have a spiffy new blog: http://blogs.gnome.org/docs 184 pcutler: shaunm: thanks 185 shaunm: and also increment the required version of g-d-u in configure 186 Gwaihir: we found some work for james_w so... 187 james_w: shaunm: hey, did you see my reply on identi.ca? 188 shaunm: james_w: yeah 189 james_w: great 190 191 - 22:53 - 192 philbull: I invited a few new contributors along 193 shaunm: yay! 194 philbull: We have BrunoXLambert 195 BrunoXLambert: that would be me 196 shaunm: um, if there's anything critical that needs to be done with yelp, chpe is on my "trusted committers" list 197 philbull: mw crowley and oliver parsons (don't know IRC handles) 198 philbull: care to introduce yourselves, guys? 199 pcutler: cool, glad to see new faces 200 oliver: hello 201 shaunm: hey, that's great. are you guys all on gnome-doc-list? 202 BrunoXLambert: Well, I am on the list since an hour now 203 imp25: are there any plans to aggregate the new blog on pgo? 204 - claude has left the room 205 pcutler: imp25: projects blogs go on news.g.o, personal blogs go on p.g.o 206 imp25: ah, thanks pcutler 207 philbull: I've asked these guys to help work on writing a new help file for something using Mallard 208 pcutler: i asked the same thing a couple months ago the first time I came across stormy's weekly update 209 philbull: we discussed this at the meeting earlier in the week 210 pcutler: any feeling for which app yet? 211 shaunm: so it would be awesome if anybody interested could join gnome-doc-list, and maybe send a short email introducing yourself 212 213 - 22:59 - 214 BrunoXLambert: I'll post a message soon 215 philbull: I'll be in touch in a day or so with some more concrete plans 216 philbull: we can coordinate the work on gnome-doc-list 217 pcutler: great, I look forward to it 218 pcutler: Sorry to be rude, I need to run. If someone can mail me the log, I'll type up the minutes 219 philbull: pcutler: I can handle that 220 pcutler: shaunm: have a great vacation, and I don't want any emails from you after tonight 221 pcutler: thanks 222 shaunm: heh 223 shaunm: thanks 224 philbull: BrunoXLambert, oliver: do you have any questions? 225 oliver: well, new to volunteering and everything still new but should get better over time 226 BrunoXLambert: right now I'll do some reading about everything, so I guess I'll have questions later 227 philbull: OK, that's cool 228 philbull: If you have problems with anything, just email me 229 oliver: Ok, phil will you email with further details or do we need to communicate another way? 230 philbull: oliver: yes, I'll be in touch tomorrow probably. 231 232 - 23:04 - 233 oliver: Ok, thanks for the intro, got to go now. 234 philbull: OK, thanks for turning up 235 philbull: I'll be in touch 236 shaunm: I want to make it clear to people that if you have any "this sucks" experiences with mallard, I really want to hear abut it 237 oliver: cheers for that 238 - oliver has left the room 239 philbull: shaunm: don't worry, you will 240 BrunoXLambert: hehe 241 shaunm: heh 242 philbull: OK guys, anything else or should we wrap up? 243 Gwaihir: one question to shaunm: did you marked where the i18n thing should happen in the xslt files? 244 shaunm: yes, look for "FIXME: i18n" 245 shaunm: cannot guarantee that I marked them all, but it's a start 246 247 - 23:09 - 248 Gwaihir: ok, great, will try to study that 249 shaunm: you might start with the simple strings like "Further Reading" in mal2html-page.xsl 250 shaunm: template strings are harder 251 Gwaihir: gotcha 252 shaunm: (you think they suck for translators, you should see how much xslt hackery they involve) 253 shaunm: all right, I need to take care of some stuff around the house now 254 shaunm: I'll be idling, check back in an hour or so 255 shaunm: thanks guys 256 257 - 23:15 - 258 Gwaihir: I'm leaving too, need at least 6 hours of sleep 259 Gwaihir: shaunm: enjoy your vacation 260 Gwaihir: good night guys! 261 - Gwaihir has left the room 262 philbull: I'm off too, night guys!
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