Attachment 'gucharmap.txt'

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   1 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 16 16:59:22 2006
   2 
   3 Feb 16 16:59:22 -->	You are now talking on #ui-review
   4 Feb 16 16:59:22 ---	Topic for #ui-review is currently reviewing http://burtonini.com/temp/sj-start-ripping.png
   5 Feb 16 16:59:22 ---	Topic for #ui-review set by calum at Mon Feb 13 18:13:20 2006
   6 Feb 16 17:00:51 <calum>	wow, first time the maintainer's been here on time all week :)
   7 Feb 16 17:01:25 -->	behdad (~behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM014250035807.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ui-review
   8 Feb 16 17:01:32 <behdad>	morning
   9 Feb 16 17:01:40 <calum>	hi
  10 Feb 16 17:01:42 -->	joachim (~joachim@ACD53D2D.ipt.aol.com) has joined #ui-review
  11 Feb 16 17:02:27 <behdad>	zwnj: ping
  12 Feb 16 17:02:36 <zwnj>	hi behdad, calum
  13 Feb 16 17:02:47 <joachim>	well I just crashed it
  14 Feb 16 17:02:54 <behdad>	:)
  15 Feb 16 17:02:57 <calum>	heh
  16 Feb 16 17:03:02 <behdad>	joachim: gucharmap?
  17 Feb 16 17:03:08 <joachim>	select Devanagari from the list
  18 Feb 16 17:03:26 <behdad>	joachim: that's prolly a pango+cairo crash.
  19 Feb 16 17:03:31 <calum>	worked for me :)
  20 Feb 16 17:03:47 <behdad>	joachim: probably this one: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5734
  21 Feb 16 17:04:12 <calum>	which version of gucharmap do we need to be looking at, btw...?
  22 Feb 16 17:04:23 <behdad>	so, I'm not sure gucharmap has been extensively reviewed previously, but from the ChangeLogs I can say some work has been done.
  23 Feb 16 17:04:40 <behdad>	calum: HEAD or 1.5.2 does it.
  24 Feb 16 17:04:53 <calum>	cool
  25 Feb 16 17:04:56 *	calum has 1.5.2
  26 Feb 16 17:05:01 <behdad>	but recently zwnj has been making some UI changes, nothing fancy.  like adding a couple options to the search dialog
  27 Feb 16 17:05:11 <behdad>	and rewording the character details page.
  28 Feb 16 17:05:26 <joachim>	1.5.1 here
  29 Feb 16 17:05:53 <calum>	ok, guess we'll need to screenshots for you then :)
  30 Feb 16 17:06:01 *	zwnj tries to update from cvs
  31 Feb 16 17:06:33 <behdad>	joachim: can you checkout/download?
  32 Feb 16 17:06:47 <behdad>	the only change between 1.5.1 and 1.5.2 is in the about dialog btw.
  33 Feb 16 17:06:57 <behdad>	about dialog has been revamped in the name of HIG too :)
  34 Feb 16 17:07:19 <behdad>	nothing fancy again.  a license button added, and "gucharmap" changed to "GNOME Character Map"
  35 Feb 16 17:07:47 <joachim>	sorry, no. building is beyond me
  36 Feb 16 17:07:57 <calum>	ok, well, I guess we could start by just doing a quick review of the main window, then the new dialogs, then anything else we have time for...
  37 Feb 16 17:08:06 <joachim>	I don't mind sitting this one out if nobody else needs screenshots
  38 Feb 16 17:08:10 <behdad>	"GNOME Character Map
  39 Feb 16 17:08:10 <behdad>	based on Unicode Character Database"  I personally don't like this, and it lacks a "the" anyway.
  40 Feb 16 17:08:24 <calum>	we should probably wait a couple of minutes to see if anyone else turns up anyway :)
  41 Feb 16 17:08:25 <behdad>	I can upload shots hopefully fast enough.
  42 Feb 16 17:08:34 <zwnj>	behdad: I didn't changed the Title
  43 Feb 16 17:09:01 <behdad>	zwnj: fine.  didn't said you did :)
  44 Feb 16 17:09:16 <zwnj>	behdad: so you did?
  45 Feb 16 17:09:31 <behdad>	no
  46 Feb 16 17:09:33 -->	andreasn (~andreas@h108n3fls33o1104.telia.com) has joined #ui-review
  47 Feb 16 17:10:22 <--	andreasn (~andreas@h108n3fls33o1104.telia.com) has left #ui-review
  48 Feb 16 17:10:56 <behdad>	zwnj: oh oh.  I see the "Contents" entry is missing from the Help menu.
  49 Feb 16 17:11:24 <zwnj>	behdad: you missed the HAVE_GNOEM
  50 Feb 16 17:11:52 <zwnj>	it requires libgnome,etc >= 2.13.4 i think
  51 Feb 16 17:12:10 <behdad>	oh, ok.
  52 Feb 16 17:12:14 *	behdad is uploading a few shots.
  53 Feb 16 17:13:20 <zwnj>	behdad: live.g.o/Gucharmap?
  54 Feb 16 17:14:55 <behdad>	http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/
  55 Feb 16 17:15:30 <calum>	cool, thx
  56 Feb 16 17:15:41 <calum>	so, looks like this is all we're getting, so shall we just start with http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/Character%20Map-1.png ?
  57 Feb 16 17:15:46 <behdad>	the main problem I see is that for character details (Character Map-2.png), you should resize to a long vertical view to see it all.
  58 Feb 16 17:15:53 <behdad>	sure.
  59 Feb 16 17:17:21 <calum>	ah, I see the list header is "Script" now, it's "Unicode Block" on mine...
  60 Feb 16 17:17:40 <behdad>	calum: oh, that's a mode you can choose in View menu
  61 Feb 16 17:17:46 <zwnj>	View -> Unicode Block
  62 Feb 16 17:17:53 <calum>	d'oh... yes, so it is :)
  63 Feb 16 17:18:00 <behdad>	uploading one of the other too
  64 Feb 16 17:18:28 <zwnj>	behdad: have you seen Unibook?  I could run it under wine.
  65 Feb 16 17:18:40 -->	charles (~charles@nat.nssl.noaa.gov) has joined #ui-review
  66 Feb 16 17:19:07 <behdad>	zwnj: no.
  67 Feb 16 17:19:12 <calum>	charles: hi, we've just started looking at http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/Character%20Map-1.png
  68 Feb 16 17:19:42 <behdad>	uploaded the other view too.
  69 Feb 16 17:19:47 <calum>	thx
  70 Feb 16 17:19:59 <zwnj>	op? topic Gucharmap | shots: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/
  71 Feb 16 17:20:10 <calum>	yeah, sorry, we haven't had ops since Monday :/
  72 Feb 16 17:20:24 <joachim>	threre's sort of a logical flaw with the two tabs for Table and Details
  73 Feb 16 17:21:12 <behdad>	joachim: yes, that's kind of a known problem currently.
  74 Feb 16 17:21:28 <joachim>	right. I'm not sure what to suggest anyway :)
  75 Feb 16 17:21:46 <behdad>	http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130618
  76 Feb 16 17:21:51 <behdad>	Bug 130618 – [UI-REVIEW] Move Character Details to separate dialog or switchable pane
  77 Feb 16 17:22:07 <behdad>	from the ui-review in jan 2004 :)
  78 Feb 16 17:22:10 <joachim>	in the screenshot you could have the font box wider. On mine it's wide enough though
  79 Feb 16 17:22:16 *	calum remembers that :)
  80 Feb 16 17:22:17 <zwnj>	behdad: would you upload those photos i sent to you on summer?
  81 Feb 16 17:23:49 <calum>	I think a three column view (with the details column optional) is probably about the only thing you could try to fix it... the details page is kind of the wrong shape to have a details expander below the table or anything like that...
  82 Feb 16 17:24:28 <behdad>	zwnj has some sketches of a new ui, lemme find.
  83 Feb 16 17:24:53 <zwnj>	what about center align the character in the details tab?
  84 Feb 16 17:24:55 <behdad>	calum: the problem with that obvisouly is that it probably doesn't fit in a 800x600 in any way.  not that it's a problem if it's optional.
  85 Feb 16 17:25:12 <behdad>	zwnj: it's supposed to show the character direction.
  86 Feb 16 17:25:27 <zwnj>	behdad: it's not the way...
  87 Feb 16 17:25:29 <calum>	behdad: yeah, good point... even if it's optional, you'd still need some way to view it on an 800x600
  88 Feb 16 17:25:53 <calum>	maybe in a very large tooltip as you hovered over the character in the table :)
  89 Feb 16 17:26:14 <behdad>	calum: a tooltip would be rather cool, yeah.
  90 Feb 16 17:26:23 <behdad>	btw, we have a usability problem already
  91 Feb 16 17:26:30 <behdad>	right click on an entry in the table.
  92 Feb 16 17:26:46 <behdad>	it zooms and shows which font it has used to render that character.
  93 Feb 16 17:27:02 <behdad>	but this thing doesn't work with ancient window managers like tvwm that you need to place a window...
  94 Feb 16 17:27:04 <zwnj>	tooltip behavior on the table is very bad
  95 Feb 16 17:27:12 <joachim>	I sometimes get an untitled window showing up in the window list when I right click in the table
  96 Feb 16 17:27:14 <joachim>	very weird
  97 Feb 16 17:27:35 <calum>	hmm
  98 Feb 16 17:30:05 <behdad>	maybe we can first shoot any fixes that need to go into 2.14, then talk about future relayout.
  99 Feb 16 17:30:23 <charles>	perhaps the script list could be a drop-down?  That would give us some horizontal space to put the character table and details side-by-side
 100 Feb 16 17:30:53 <calum>	behdad: probably wise :)
 101 Feb 16 17:31:14 <behdad>	charles: not sure if a drop down works quite as good
 102 Feb 16 17:31:26 <behdad>	here is some sketches zwnj came up with last summer: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/zwnj/
 103 Feb 16 17:31:41 <behdad>	some overcomplex layout called Advanced, with a more sane one called Normal :)
 104 Feb 16 17:32:30 <behdad>	point of fact is that the Character Details tab doesn't need to be too wide.
 105 Feb 16 17:32:42 <calum>	heh... yeah, the normal view looks pretty much like what I was thinking about, really...
 106 Feb 16 17:32:47 <behdad>	so maybe they actually do fit in a reasonable screen if we resize a bit.
 107 Feb 16 17:33:34 <calum>	hmm, the HIG does say dropdown lists shouldn't have more than about ten items, so I guess we wouldn't want to do that :)
 108 Feb 16 17:33:39 <behdad>	that may not be hard to do actually.  not quite sure, but for somebody familiar with gtk+ hacking, it should be a 20minute change :)
 109 Feb 16 17:34:02 <calum>	yeah, well, I wouldn't worry about it for 2.14 :)
 110 Feb 16 17:34:13 <behdad>	in Unicode Block view, the block list gets too wide, simply because some entries are too long.
 111 Feb 16 17:34:21 <behdad>	that doesn't look good and is not that useful.  
 112 Feb 16 17:34:26 <zwnj>	that list is going to be a tree in the (near?!) feature...
 113 Feb 16 17:34:26 <behdad>	heh, ok
 114 Feb 16 17:35:09 <zwnj>	behdad: we cannot fix it's width
 115 Feb 16 17:35:20 <behdad>	what about moving the Script / Unicode Block thing into the tab for that list?
 116 Feb 16 17:35:29 <behdad>	instead of the harder-to-find View menu?
 117 Feb 16 17:35:49 <zwnj>	because some block names just differ on an A/B at the end
 118 Feb 16 17:36:22 <behdad>	zwnj: that you can scroll to see, or read the full name in the tooltip (when that's supported)
 119 Feb 16 17:37:03 <zwnj>	behdad: that's very annoying IMO
 120 Feb 16 17:37:05 <behdad>	hum, shall we change the font selection toolbar for a nifty font dialog?
 121 Feb 16 17:37:26 <behdad>	zwnj: you can resize it if you want, but taking more than half of the application view doesn't look quite right to me.
 122 Feb 16 17:38:37 <zwnj>	behdad: so it just shouldn't change the width on changing script/block
 123 Feb 16 17:39:13 <charles>	the unicode block list isn't sorted?
 124 Feb 16 17:39:27 <zwnj>	charles: good point
 125 Feb 16 17:39:40 <calum>	behdad: hmm, font dialog might be nice, but I think you'd probably still want to be able to tweak at least the size (if not the style) from the toolbar anyway, so I'm not sure it gets us much really...
 126 Feb 16 17:39:44 <zwnj>	it's ordered by block numbers
 127 Feb 16 17:39:49 <behdad>	charles: no, it's ordered by the unicode codepoints.
 128 Feb 16 17:39:56 <zwnj>	there's a bug for alphabetical sort
 129 Feb 16 17:40:01 <calum>	behdad: other than a font preview, I guess
 130 Feb 16 17:40:03 <behdad>	calum: right.
 131 Feb 16 17:40:22 <behdad>	it's probably too tied to the font to use a separate dialog
 132 Feb 16 17:41:05 <behdad>	calum: but hard-coding bold and italic is limiting a bit, since fonts can have other styles
 133 Feb 16 17:41:17 <calum>	behdad: yes true, that might be a good reason to change then
 134 Feb 16 17:41:34 <zwnj>	i like to remove the font selection for the table and limit it to details tab
 135 Feb 16 17:42:18 <behdad>	zwnj: but font selection for the table is useful for seeing what the font supports and how does it look.
 136 Feb 16 17:42:28 <behdad>	zwnj: say you want to see which Arabic characters the font supports
 137 Feb 16 17:42:45 <zwnj>	behdad: that doesn't work
 138 Feb 16 17:42:47 <behdad>	that of course needs an option to disable font fallbacks.
 139 Feb 16 17:43:24 <zwnj>	that's needed to limit blocks to what font has
 140 Feb 16 17:43:28 <zwnj>	blah blah
 141 Feb 16 17:43:48 <calum>	heh
 142 Feb 16 17:44:03 <zwnj>	and these are what font-viewer must have, not character map
 143 Feb 16 17:44:21 <behdad>	a good question probably is: is making it a font-viewer and character map combined together a good idea?
 144 Feb 16 17:44:50 <behdad>	we have requests for hiding characters that no font supports.
 145 Feb 16 17:44:55 <zwnj>	behdad: that's exactly what i have in mind
 146 Feb 16 17:46:58 <calum>	behdad: it is a good question, but probably not one we should worry about today :)
 147 Feb 16 17:47:25 <zwnj>	calum: so we should remove many of font supports for know IMHO
 148 Feb 16 17:48:17 <zwnj>	i like that report, replacing numeric font size with "Small" "Normal" "Big" ,etc
 149 Feb 16 17:48:59 <zwnj>	but we cannot do this without font-view
 150 Feb 16 17:49:32 *	zwnj داره می‌میره از بی‌خوابی!
 151 Feb 16 17:49:48 <calum>	yeah, I would have no problem with that if you wanted to....
 152 Feb 16 17:49:58 <calum>	heh
 153 Feb 16 17:50:15 <calum>	xchat didn't do a very good job of rendering that :)
 154 Feb 16 17:51:04 *	zwnj feels so sleepy (~translated)
 155 Feb 16 17:51:12 <calum>	is there any reason we don't use a proper toolbar control for the, er.. toolbar, btw?  if it did, it could respect the settings in the menus & toolbars capplet...
 156 Feb 16 17:51:32 <behdad>	good point.
 157 Feb 16 17:52:47 <behdad>	sorry, I've to go.
 158 Feb 16 17:52:54 <calum>	ok...
 159 Feb 16 17:52:59 <behdad>	will someone send a report please.
 160 Feb 16 17:53:03 <behdad>	zwnj: you maybe?
 161 Feb 16 17:53:14 <behdad>	calum: and thanks btw.
 162 Feb 16 17:53:23 <calum>	no problem
 163 Feb 16 17:53:39 <--	behdad (~behdad@CPE000fb55e466d-CM014250035807.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has left #ui-review
 164 Feb 16 17:54:31 <calum>	so, shall we move on to the new Find dialog, to keep us all awake? :)
 165 Feb 16 17:54:43 <calum>	or does anyone have more comments on the main window?
 166 Feb 16 17:57:42 <calum>	ok, http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/Find.png it is then...
 167 Feb 16 17:59:16 <calum>	have to say the HIG would recommend that the three Find menu items should be on an Edit menu, rather than a Search menu...
 168 Feb 16 17:59:17 <joachim>	find / search?
 169 Feb 16 17:59:25 <calum>	right :)
 170 Feb 16 17:59:34 <joachim>	though looking at some other dialogs, the standard label text seems to be 'Search for:'
 171 Feb 16 17:59:45 <calum>	good point
 172 Feb 16 18:00:05 <joachim>	someone at Mozilla once told me find and search meant different things... :/
 173 Feb 16 18:00:28 <calum>	yeah, technically they do, but that doesn't translate very well so we stopped trying to explain it :)
 174 Feb 16 18:00:56 <calum>	and just decided to go with Find for everything...
 175 Feb 16 18:01:36 <joachim>	why 'cancel'? there's nothing to cancel
 176 Feb 16 18:01:56 <charles>	should be 'close', no?
 177 Feb 16 18:02:12 <zwnj>	joachim: that could be close
 178 Feb 16 18:02:21 <joachim>	gedit has close, bluefish cancel
 179 Feb 16 18:02:42 <zwnj>	but it cancels current search thread too
 180 Feb 16 18:03:18 <joachim>	is it better to have a 'search backwards' checkbox and just the one button?
 181 Feb 16 18:03:50 *	calum thinks it should be Close too
 182 Feb 16 18:04:04 <calum>	actually I quite like having both buttons, I find the checkbox annoying when I want to search backwards
 183 Feb 16 18:04:30 <joachim>	I'm inclined to agree, but 'Next' doesn't mean very much when you haven't found anything yet
 184 Feb 16 18:05:07 <zwnj>	joachim: so you mean dynamic button label?
 185 Feb 16 18:05:14 <joachim>	*shrugs*
 186 Feb 16 18:05:31 <calum>	yeah, dynamic label could work, although it sometimes annoys the accessibility people :/
 187 Feb 16 18:06:00 <zwnj>	calum: exactly
 188 Feb 16 18:06:04 <calum>	(because screenreaders etc. then have to announce that something has changed)
 189 Feb 16 18:06:07 <joachim>	I think we should only worry about that level of detail if we were designing a cross-app find dialog
 190 Feb 16 18:06:11 <zwnj>	i don't remember what HIG says
 191 Feb 16 18:06:23 <joachim>	... which could be a nice thing :)
 192 Feb 16 18:06:39 <calum>	HIG says to avoid dynamic labels if possible, IIRC...
 193 Feb 16 18:07:43 <charles>	joachim: how about 'forward' instead of 'next'?
 194 Feb 16 18:08:29 <zwnj>	how about disabling buttons on no result
 195 Feb 16 18:08:50 <calum>	hmm, I think next is more correct than forward... you're asking it to find the next item, although you are asking it to /search/ forwards :)
 196 Feb 16 18:09:09 <calum>	evince just has previous and next buttons too (and firefox has Find Previous and Find Next), so I guess it's consistent with those...
 197 Feb 16 18:09:09 <joachim>	ideally, 'Find next', but that's too long
 198 Feb 16 18:09:18 <calum>	yeah
 199 Feb 16 18:09:48 <calum>	zwnj: yes, we should probably do that anyway
 200 Feb 16 18:10:14 <zwnj>	hope we had a widget like this:  [ < | Find | > ]
 201 Feb 16 18:10:32 <calum>	that would be too easy :)
 202 Feb 16 18:11:06 <zwnj>	calum: i'm newbie on widget accessibility
 203 Feb 16 18:11:22 <charles>	zwnj: join the club. :)
 204 Feb 16 18:12:00 <zwnj>	it has some RTL problems BTW ;)
 205 Feb 16 18:13:12 <calum>	heh, true :)
 206 Feb 16 18:13:38 <charles>	well [close, previous, next] are a decent balance of clarity and terseness IMO
 207 Feb 16 18:14:08 <calum>	yeah, I think that's probably fine
 208 Feb 16 18:14:21 <charles>	there's not much to get wrong on a five-widget dialog
 209 Feb 16 18:14:23 <zwnj>	good, and disable prev & next buttons on no result :)
 210 Feb 16 18:14:40 <calum>	right-- and re-enable them when the user starts typing in the Search box again...
 211 Feb 16 18:14:57 <zwnj>	try to... :D
 212 Feb 16 18:15:08 <calum>	heh
 213 Feb 16 18:15:12 <zwnj>	if you look
 214 Feb 16 18:15:38 <zwnj>	they won't be enable until you type a non-space character ;)
 215 Feb 16 18:16:28 <calum>	ok :)
 216 Feb 16 18:17:45 <calum>	so, shall we just have a quick look at the about box?
 217 Feb 16 18:17:46 <calum>	http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/ui/About%20Gucharmap.png
 218 Feb 16 18:18:23 <zwnj>	ok
 219 Feb 16 18:18:26 <charles>	one last thing on the find dialog: when the dialog first comes up, and when you close the `not found.' child dialog, should the gtkentry get focus?
 220 Feb 16 18:18:53 <calum>	ah... yes, good idea
 221 Feb 16 18:19:09 <zwnj>	charles: good point, ok
 222 Feb 16 18:21:41 <calum>	so, the about box... anything controversial there?  Apart from the missing 'the' that behdad mentioned :)
 223 Feb 16 18:22:16 <zwnj>	i had put unicode version too, but we had problems about translation, so removed for now
 224 Feb 16 18:22:37 <calum>	ok...
 225 Feb 16 18:22:40 <charles>	fine
 226 Feb 16 18:22:43 <zwnj>	calum: don't think so
 227 Feb 16 18:23:05 <calum>	is there any way we can make the URL into a live link?
 228 Feb 16 18:23:33 <zwnj>	calum: i'll look around, gedit has one
 229 Feb 16 18:23:37 <charles>	does the gtkabout dialog support live links?
 230 Feb 16 18:23:44 <calum>	or should we have live.gnome.org stuff in about boxes anyway, as that site is really for developers?
 231 Feb 16 18:23:56 <zwnj>	charles: i set the "link" property
 232 Feb 16 18:23:58 <calum>	charles: dunno, that's why I asked :)
 233 Feb 16 18:24:29 <charles>	There's no gtk equivalent of gnome_url_show AFAIK
 234 Feb 16 18:25:04 <zwnj>	"website", "http://live.gnome.org/Gucharmap",
 235 Feb 16 18:25:26 *	joachim is off. bye :)
 236 Feb 16 18:25:36 <--	joachim has quit (Leaving)
 237 Feb 16 18:25:39 <zwnj>	so i cannot do anything till it uses gtk_show_about_dialog()
 238 Feb 16 18:25:52 <calum>	ok...
 239 Feb 16 18:27:36 <calum>	so, if there's no more on the about box, shall we just have a quick look through the menus to finish off?
 240 Feb 16 18:28:22 <charles>	I was wondering what is the point of `snap columns to power of two'
 241 Feb 16 18:28:39 <calum>	I was going to ask that too :)
 242 Feb 16 18:28:59 <calum>	(and it needs an access key, too...)
 243 Feb 16 18:30:11 <zwnj>	ok
 244 Feb 16 18:30:15 <calum>	(so do Go->Next Script and Go->Previous Script, just while I notice...)
 245 Feb 16 18:30:17 <zwnj>	that's hackerish
 246 Feb 16 18:30:35 <zwnj>	helps user to see tables like the unicode book
 247 Feb 16 18:30:53 <zwnj>	in fixed rows of 8 or 16 cells
 248 Feb 16 18:31:21 <zwnj>	you can find chars by code faster in this way
 249 Feb 16 18:32:08 <calum>	ok... so perhaps it should just be the default, and not allow the user to change it at all?  Or would that be too restrictive?
 250 Feb 16 18:33:21 <charles>	forcing snap-to-^2 would be better than having such an obscure menu item
 251 Feb 16 18:34:04 <charles>	IMO the feature is a wart anyway: if the point is looking up by code, ^2 is only going to get you halfway there -- the rows should be numbered.
 252 Feb 16 18:34:34 <charles>	and if you number the rows (or put the code in the right-click popup) then the need for ^2 goes away.
 253 Feb 16 18:34:35 <zwnj>	calum: the problem is when
 254 Feb 16 18:34:47 <zwnj>	we want to hide unassigned characters
 255 Feb 16 18:34:57 <zwnj>	but
 256 Feb 16 18:35:51 <zwnj>	it's very good if we go for small, normal, big font sizes and set the font size such that we get 16, 8, and 4 columns
 257 Feb 16 18:36:39 <calum>	hmm, ok... well, the other alternative is just to think of a better name for the menu item, of course :)
 258 Feb 16 18:37:27 <zwnj>	have to decide for this now?
 259 Feb 16 18:37:47 <calum>	no, not unless anybody has any great ideas :)
 260 Feb 16 18:37:56 <charles>	is there a downside to it being on all the time and removing the button?
 261 Feb 16 18:39:04 <zwnj>	the problem is when
 262 Feb 16 18:39:20 <zwnj>	user make window wider
 263 Feb 16 18:39:28 <zwnj>	but cannot get more cells on the screen
 264 Feb 16 18:39:44 <calum>	yeah, that could be annoying I guess
 265 Feb 16 18:40:20 <charles>	zwnj: yes, that's true
 266 Feb 16 18:40:34 *	zwnj thinks all we do actually better than MS and KDE ones :D
 267 Feb 16 18:41:18 <calum>	ok, well let's just note it as maybe something to think about again for 2.16, then...
 268 Feb 16 18:41:25 <charles>	*nod*
 269 Feb 16 18:41:45 <calum>	any other comments on the menus?
 270 Feb 16 18:42:13 <calum>	is there any reason to have Ctrl+N/P as shortcuts for Next/Previous character, when the arrow keys work just fine?
 271 Feb 16 18:42:58 <calum>	oh, I suppose it's because they work when the Details tab is showing...
 272 Feb 16 18:43:26 <zwnj>	calum: yep :)
 273 Feb 16 18:43:28 <charles>	you wouldn't be able to use the arrow keys in the font type / font size entry fields...
 274 Feb 16 18:43:47 <calum>	zwnj: another reason to do that redesign :)
 275 Feb 16 18:44:00 <calum>	charles: yes, that's true too, although I can't think of many situations where you'd need to do that...
 276 Feb 16 18:44:54 <zwnj>	calum: i prefer to not move my hand
 277 Feb 16 18:45:14 <zwnj>	why use arrow keys when there are easier ways to do :D
 278 Feb 16 18:45:39 *	calum finds pressing one key a lot easier than holding down two :)
 279 Feb 16 18:46:22 *	zwnj believes moving arm is harder :D
 280 Feb 16 18:46:45 <calum>	hehe... ok, so that was my only other comment on the menus I think... anyone have anything else, on the menus or otherwise?
 281 Feb 16 18:47:44 <charles>	well with very little code, we could still replace ctrl-n/p with arrow keys.  you'd only need to add a keypress signal listener in the details tab
 282 Feb 16 18:48:48 <calum>	the arrow keys move the text cursor around in the details tab now, though (which is handy if you want to copy and paste stuff)... would we want to override that?
 283 Feb 16 18:49:16 <charles>	no. :)  you're right.
 284 Feb 16 18:50:42 <charles>	anyway, aside from adding some access keys and punting ^2, I don't see anything else in the menus
 285 Feb 16 18:51:09 <calum>	ok, well that covers everything for me too I think...
 286 Feb 16 18:51:35 <charles>	this was kind of fun; thanks for putting up with some of my newbie suggestions. :)
 287 Feb 16 18:51:43 <charles>	later
 288 Feb 16 18:51:49 <calum>	charles: see ya
 289 Feb 16 18:51:52 <--	charles (~charles@nat.nssl.noaa.gov) has left #ui-review
 290 Feb 16 18:51:52 <calum>	zwnj: would you like me to send you a copy of the IRC log?  Or should I send one to behdad?
 291 Feb 16 18:52:38 <zwnj>	we appreciated that
 292 Feb 16 18:52:41 <zwnj>	but
 293 Feb 16 18:52:52 <zwnj>	i don't like "^2" in the menu
 294 Feb 16 18:53:04 <zwnj>	it's very user-unfriendly
 295 Feb 16 18:53:36 <calum>	yeah... well, I have to go now too, but I'll think about it overnight and let you know tomorrow if I have any ideas :)
 296 Feb 16 18:53:42 <zwnj>	but maybe somthing like "managed columns" would be cool
 297 Feb 16 18:54:02 <zwnj>	ok, so let continue on email if needed
 298 Feb 16 18:54:05 <calum>	ok, cool
 299 Feb 16 18:54:12 <zwnj>	calum, thanks a lot :)
 300 Feb 16 18:54:20 <calum>	no problem :)
 301 Feb 16 18:54:30 <zwnj>	goodnight
 302 Feb 16 18:54:32 <--	zwnj (~zwnj@213.233.163.5) has left #ui-review
 303 Feb 16 18:54:38 ---	Disconnected ().
 304 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 16 18:54:38 2006

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