**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 17 08:51:49 2001

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08:51:49 ---	Topic for #usability is Meeting Friday, August 17 @ 1700 UTC (1:00p.m. US/Eastern / 10:00 a.m. US/Pacific)
08:51:49 ---	Topic for #usability set by Darksheer at Thu Aug 16 15:05:18
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11:55:56 <erikp>	What's AFK?
11:56:06 <iDek>	away from keyboard
11:56:14 <erikp>	ah. :)
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11:59:23 ---	seth has changed the topic to: http://www.stanford.edu/~snickell/agenda.html
11:59:32 ---	seth has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda: http://www.stanford.edu/~snickell/agenda.html
12:00:12 <seth>	Please read the agenda and tell me if you have anything you want to add to it.
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12:00:29 <sander>	hi all
12:00:35 <iDek>	seth: Graphic Design and Icons?
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12:00:38 <iDek>	hi sander
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12:00:48 <sander>	hi iDek
12:01:22 *	seth wonders if somebody from mtn view is going to show or if we should just start
12:01:36 <Dekar>	we're having a meeting now?
12:01:48 <nils>	seth: just start
12:02:02 <seth>	Dekar: yes
12:02:08 *	Dekar had no clue...
12:02:10 <seth>	Dekar: 1706UTC :-)
12:02:26 <Darksheer>	seth: I'm sure we all have logging turned on, and anyone who isn't here can be filled in easy enough
12:02:26 <seth>	hmmm.... I hope my message to usability@ actually went through (!!!)
12:02:32 <Dekar>	seth: It did
12:02:48 <Dekar>	seth: I just hadn't checked that mailing list folder yesterday
12:02:51 <Dekar>	my fault
12:02:54 <seth>	Yeah, if somebody would be so good as to log this with date stamps and such that would be useful
12:03:00 <seth>	Oh, it was very short notice
12:03:03 <seth>	OK...lets get to work
12:03:07 <Dekar>	I think I am
12:03:12 <seth>	First item on the agenda...
12:03:15 <seth>	The next meeting time
12:03:18 <seth>	Actuall
12:03:19 <seth>	y
12:03:26 <seth>	Lets have additions to the agenda first
12:03:33 <seth>	Does anyone have something they want to add to the agenda?
12:03:57 <seth>	We're a smaller group today, so we probably won't have as much trouble with side conversations, but anything you want to talk about really should be on the agenda
12:04:50 <seth>	ok...i'll take that as a no :)
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12:05:10 <seth>	Lets skip next meeting time and get back to it, since I think that's affected by setting deadlines for must-fixi
12:05:28 <seth>	We need to get all the must-fix slots adequately filled
12:05:34 <seth>	So lets just go down the list
12:05:43 <Dekar>	I think half the people who might want to object to the meeting time aren't here anyway ;)
12:05:47 <seth>	For menus and applications right now we have Nils & Kevin
12:05:51 <seth>	Dekar: yeah, I know. ironic
12:06:21 <seth>	Given that nils already has a lot of work put in to this area I suspect that will be plenty
12:06:39 <seth>	Anyone particularly want to be involved with that?
12:07:07 <seth>	alright...
12:07:09 <Darksheer>	I tend to think that's one of those areas that very easily discussed via the mailing list.
12:07:17 <erikp>	yeah
12:07:26 <seth>	2) Nautilus where we currently have Brian Crescimanno signed up
12:07:29 <Darksheer>	So, I think that any time anyone has input for them, it's easy enough for us to get those ideas heard, and discussed.
12:07:34 <erikp>	one question:  when is the deadline for these lists?
12:07:38 <seth>	Darksheer: sounds reasonable
12:07:44 <Darksheer>	erikp: we'll get to that.
12:07:51 <seth>	erikp: Do you need that discussed before signing on?
12:07:56 <erikp>	Well
12:08:06 <erikp>	I can't really help with anything for the next two weeks
12:08:15 <seth>	ok
12:08:25 <erikp>	so if the deadline is in 3 weeks, i'm kind of useless. :)
12:08:30 <seth>	We can touch on that briefly...
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12:08:44 <seth>	My suspicion is that we're going to want to push this faster than 3 weeks since we need to start getting changes in place
12:08:54 <seth>	Any contrary opinions?
12:09:00 <Darksheer>	seth: agreed
12:09:06 <adam_>	Darksheer: by "the mailing list", do you mean usability@gnome.org?
12:09:16 <Darksheer>	adam_: indeed.
12:09:27 <Darksheer>	adam_: sorry, should have specified. 
12:09:28 <adam_>	Darksheer: cool, just wanted to clarify.
12:09:29 <seth>	erikp: Don't worry, we'll have plenty of work after this too :-) This is just identifying bugs that need to be fixed, not deciding how to fix them
12:09:32 <adam_>	no problem :)
12:09:42 <seth>	OK, so on to slot #2
12:09:50 <seth>	We currently have Brian signed up for Nautilus
12:09:58 <seth>	I suspect we need one more person in this slot
12:10:09 <Darksheer>	A couple of people have e-mailed me directly about helping with the testing.
12:10:10 <seth>	I'm available as a resource, but I've already had my turn at Nautilus ;-)
12:10:13 <seth>	Darksheer: that's great
12:10:20 <seth>	Darksheer: So you think you have enough people?
12:10:21 <Darksheer>	But...
12:10:36 <Darksheer>	seth: not as of yet...I think there are 3 total at the moment...I'd like probably 2 more.
12:10:53 <seth>	Darksheer: I suspect that's enough to get started. People can join in as we balance out the workload
12:11:16 <Darksheer>	seth: true...unfortunately, I think erikp here was one of the people who had e-mailed me.
12:11:24 <seth>	Darksheer: grin
12:11:28 <Darksheer>	seth: so I think it's probably down to 2, which is enough to get started of course....
12:11:31 <Darksheer>	Anyway...
12:11:36 <Dekar>	For what, identifying problems in nautilus?
12:11:38 <seth>	Darksheer: I was expecting two people per point, in general, so you're probably ok
12:11:39 <Darksheer>	let me give everyone a general idea of what's going to be going on the nautilus department.
12:11:49 <Dekar>	ok
12:11:50 <seth>	Dekar: Identifying the few biggest problems in Nautilus
12:12:01 <seth>	Darksheer: Lets save that for the reports section
12:12:15 <Darksheer>	seth: sure thing.
12:12:23 <seth>	3) Control Center is right now woefully understaffed
12:12:32 <seth>	It has me right now
12:12:39 <seth>	We need another one or two people
12:12:56 <seth>	It sounds like somebody from Sun might be interested in working on this...
12:12:58 <Dekar>	I know of some stupid problems in nautilus, I suppose I could possibly sign up
12:13:03 <seth>	nils: Do you have any feedback on that?
12:13:06 <seth>	Dekar: great
12:13:18 <nils>	seth: if you help me get it (them) going i'll help you on CC
12:13:28 <seth>	nils: ok, that's good
12:13:46 <seth>	nils: I think Suz was also interested, though I guess its unclear who/what is going to be involved with GNOME at this point
12:14:19 <nils>	i'll talk to suz offline
12:14:22 <seth>	cool
12:14:32 <seth>	So we have Seth & Nils on CC right now
12:14:52 <seth>	On Nautilus we have Darksheer, Dekar...and you said there was somebody else?
12:15:08 <Darksheer>	seth: yes, let me get the name real quick.
12:15:37 <Darksheer>	seth: martin coxall
12:15:51 <seth>	OK, now Evolution
12:16:07 <seth>	Which brings up a seperate issue we may need to add to the bottom of the agenda, getting Ximian representation
12:16:25 <seth>	I think we should get somebody from here signed up on Evolution nonetheless
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12:16:47 <seth>	Anyone want to volunteer?
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12:17:05 <seth>	the gallery is silent :-)
12:17:10 <Dekar>	Not me!
12:17:11 <Darksheer>	seth: I'd be happy to help, but unfortunately, I'm not the biggeset "groupware" user out there, and Evolution is basically an e-mail client for me.
12:17:18 <seth>	Darksheer: yes, me too
12:17:28 *	iDek doesn't use evolution at all, so he would be the last choice ;)
12:17:29 <seth>	Though that's probably its most important purpose
12:17:39 <seth>	iDek: that might be good, actually
12:17:55 <seth>	OK, so lets find somebody who uses groupware to get involved with this
12:18:04 <seth>	That will be an action item "Find somebody to deal with Evolution"
12:18:13 <seth>	5) Default GTK and Windowmanager theme
12:18:27 <seth>	UnNamed_ has volunteered, but I am concerned about that for the same reasons I'm not handling Nautilus
12:18:36 <seth>	UnNamed_: comments?
12:19:07 <UnNamed_>	seth: what about Nautilus?
12:19:09 <iDek>	seth: what reason is that again?
12:20:05 <seth>	I'm not doing Nautilus because I have too much attachment to it
12:20:13 <iDek>	ahh
12:20:26 <seth>	Its not possible for me to look at Nautilus with a blank slate
12:20:28 <iDek>	I suppose I could do default GTK and WM theme.
12:20:42 <iDek>	I would be glad to, actually
12:21:09 <erikp>	I was thinking... it might be good to have some theme guidelines too
12:21:13 <seth>	UnNamed_: Would it be OK with you to arrange it the same way as with Nautilus... Dekar and somebody else do the list using you as the expert resource?
12:21:15 <Darksheer>	seth: to be fair, I think anyone who is going to look at gtk / wm themes is going to be in some way biased.
12:21:19 <iDek>	erikp: theme guidelines?
12:21:20 <erikp>	button placement, minimum size, contrast, etc...
12:21:21 <seth>	Darksheer: yes
12:21:34 <iDek>	oh.
12:21:56 <seth>	erikp: That's a good idea
12:21:56 <erikp>	you can't say "click the X in the top right corner"
12:22:04 <erikp>	because it might be a bomb in the top left corner or something
12:22:31 <seth>	adam_: Would the HIG be able to handle this?
12:22:42 <seth>	Or is this something we need accomplished pre-GNOME2 ?
12:23:03 <iDek>	I can come up with a draft of how window frames should behave
12:23:04 <seth>	It sounds like it may fall under the auspices of the HIG
12:23:10 <iDek>	It shouldn't take all that long for at least some of the basic things
12:23:14 <calum>	I'd say it's not a HIG thing, myself, the HIG is really for applications...
12:23:14 <adam_>	seth: I'd think this is outside the scope of the mini-Guidelines
12:23:18 *	seth pokes UnNamed_
12:23:19 <iDek>	especially since I already have this all in my mind of how it should work :-)
12:23:24 <seth>	calum: alright
12:23:44 <adam_>	calum: well, I'm not sure of that, but it definitely falls outside the scope of the version we're working on now
12:23:57 <adam_>	I think there could be room for it in the "long" version if such a thing ever exists
12:24:05 <seth>	iDek: OK, can you please formulate ideas on this and we'll address it and perhaps establish a group of people to work on this at the next meeting?
12:24:28 <erikp>	Perhaps a basic something about where the buttons need to be and how they need to behave?
12:24:31 <seth>	This is an interesting timeframe to work on it because there aren't very many GTK2 themes right now
12:24:32 <iDek>	seth: alright...though I basically already know how I think they should work
12:24:32 <iDek>	right
12:24:45 <seth>	iDek: now now, lets reduce our preconceptions ;-)
12:24:47 <iDek>	I'm less certain about GTK themes - what do we need to do there?
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12:25:05 <seth>	iDek: Lets address this later, I'll leave you to fume about it :-)
12:25:10 <iDek>	heh
12:25:11 <greg>	Anybody familiar with our "designing for disabilities" page?
12:25:21 <seth>	greg: (pst, we're in a meeting)
12:25:39 <seth>	I'm not hearing a decision on #5
12:25:43 <greg>	seth: eep, sorry, I'll spam you personally then.
12:26:07 <seth>	I think we may have lost UnNamed_ :-(
12:26:14 <seth>	Lets move on
12:26:18 <seth>	6) Logging out and in
12:26:27 <seth>	kevinv: you're signed up for this right now
12:26:35 <kevinv>	seth: pretty much have this done right now
12:26:52 <seth>	kevinv: ok, it seems potentially more managable by one person than the others
12:27:03 <kevinv>	seth: yah it's not too large
12:27:20 <seth>	So we'll leave that with kevinv failing anyone else joining him
12:27:36 <seth>	next area...Graphic design and icons
12:27:55 *	Darksheer runs
12:28:05 <iDek>	ok...
12:28:09 <seth>	nils: Just to be clear, this point is dealing with evaluating the existing icons, right?
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12:28:29 <nils>	that's the intent
12:28:32 <erikp>	Sun's user test hits a lot of the issues with that
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12:29:04 <nils>	evo, nauti, cc, panel, etc 
12:29:16 <seth>	Yes, unfortunately there are so many icons its impossible for the formal user testing to address them all yet
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12:29:26 <seth>	But some of them certainely seem clearly problematic
12:29:28 <seth>	UnNamed_: with us?
12:30:28 <seth>	I think the best approach for this one is to take the data from the Sun report, and to combine that with a look at every GNOME icon in the pixmaps dir
12:30:47 <seth>	And just create an ordered list of icons in terms of their clarity
12:31:00 <seth>	If there are no volunteers I would be happy to work on this
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12:31:09 <Darksheer>	seth: I'll help you out with it.
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12:31:39 <calum>	seth: It's not just clarity, it's consistency, internationalization issues etc. as well...
12:31:47 <seth>	calum: yes, good point
12:31:55 <seth>	calum: Do you want to pitch in here?
12:32:03 <calum>	seth: For example, the underside of the foot is considered distasteful in some countries, which puts the GNOME logo at a distinct disadvantage...
12:32:07 <Darksheer>	indeed...the idea is to make all the icons ubiquitous
12:32:29 <seth>	calum: Well...that one would be very difficult to change ;-)
12:32:42 <nils>	seth: no body parts
12:32:47 <seth>	nils: yes
12:33:07 <calum>	seth: Yes, I can probably help out a bit, although I'm not awash with free time at the moment  :)
12:33:13 <seth>	calum: right
12:33:24 <seth>	I think this item in particular can use spare man-hours from almost anyone
12:33:30 <seth>	I'll setup a simple online icon ranking system
12:33:51 <seth>	8) Feedback
12:34:10 <seth>	nils: I thought there was somebody at Sun dealing with the engineering aspect of application feedback, right?
12:34:52 <nils>	you mean the app launching stuff from the panel
12:35:01 <calum>	Well, mary was working on galf, yes... I suspect she won't have any more time to work on it now, though...
12:36:24 <nils>	well we could put that part under 1)
12:36:45 <seth>	nils: ok
12:36:45 <nils>	but to go through each and every app is a big task
12:36:50 <seth>	nils: yes
12:37:02 <nils>	maybe post 2.0?
12:37:08 <seth>	The problem is identifying critical feedback issues
12:37:16 <seth>	Right now application launching is the only one I know of
12:37:18 <iDek>	KDE has a taskbar entry for apps which are launching (everybody's seen this by now...) - it also has the icon of the app launching near the cursor and somewhat animated
12:37:20 <seth>	And maybe Nautilus
12:37:34 <iDek>	seth: Well, throughout GNOME apps there are times when you get *no* feedback
12:37:37 <seth>	iDek: I suspect galf will give us this
12:37:43 <iDek>	Something just doesn't do anything and you don't know why
12:37:46 <calum>	Heard mucho complaints about Evo's feedback when sending/receiving mail etc, too
12:37:52 <seth>	iDek: The question is...is it *critical*
12:37:59 <seth>	calum: It improved a lot in the past 1.5 weeks
12:38:00 <iDek>	though the only examples I can think of right now are not core GNOME apps, they're 3rd party
12:38:04 <seth>	calum: Much better now
12:38:15 <seth>	OK, so lets punt on feedback
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12:38:24 <seth>	Sans galf which we need to make sure gets well integrated
12:38:34 <sander>	iDek: well, the set of core apps for gnome2 isn't final yet
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12:38:42 <calum>	accessibility-related feedback issues might be important...
12:38:56 <seth>	calum: Can you be more detailed?
12:39:03 <iDek>	seth: We need to make sure it works well too - xalf was a disaster
12:39:17 <calum>	e.g. there needs to be a global desktop setting that lets you specify whether you want the standard system beep to be a flash or something instead, if you're deaf...
12:39:38 <calum>	or your soundcard doesn't work  :)
12:39:52 <adam_>	seth: at a minimum, btw, there will be a little note on feedback as a usability principle in the HIG
12:40:05 <adam_>	although it didn't make the cut as a full section for the mini-guidelines
12:40:24 <calum>	seth: But maybe that's something the accessibility team ought to address, rather than the usability team...
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12:40:42 <seth>	adam_: definitely
12:40:48 <adam_>	calum: I think feedback in general is definitely a usability issue
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12:41:00 <adam_>	calum: the beep-vs-flash thing is more accessibility though
12:41:02 <seth>	adam_: The feedback Calum is talking about is an accessibility issue, in this case
12:41:08 <adam_>	right
12:41:22 <seth>	OK, lets punt on that and move on to "deadlines"
12:41:46 <seth>	Since pretty much everyone on the must-fix list is represented here, I think we can just make a firm decision on this
12:41:56 <seth>	How quickly do people feel they can be done (without sacrificing quality)
12:42:30 <nils>	what's the deadline for usability bug fixes?
12:42:42 <seth>	Yes, maybe we should reverse the order of these two
12:42:48 <iDek>	seth: It really depends
12:42:50 <seth>	sander: What are our target milestones for usability?
12:42:56 <iDek>	seth: on how much stuff we want to cover :-)
12:42:57 <seth>	sander: And what are their corresponding dates currently
12:43:14 <seth>	Remember that listing these problems is only part of the work, somebody needs to fix them
12:43:23 <seth>	This list can't be too long or it won't feasibly happen
12:43:29 <seth>	The critical element here is prioritization
12:44:24 <seth>	OK, failing a response I'm going to tenatively say that people should post a "rough draft" in 1.5 weeks to the mailing list
12:44:40 <seth>	We can discuss the issues on the list, and finalize it in the next meeting (~2 weeks)
12:44:42 <Darksheer>	I was going to comment that 1 week from Monday might be a good date.
12:44:44 <sander>	seth: the same as in the mail I sent you still. I would like UI "frozen" by beta1
12:45:07 <Darksheer>	That puts 2 weekends between now and the date for drafts of the must-fix lists...
12:45:32 <seth>	sander: We mean the "Must fix" UI bugs...we're still frozen on beta1 for that?!?
12:45:34 <Darksheer>	(for those of us that have a first week of school coming up, this will ensure our ability to take care of our assigned tasks)
12:46:32 <sander>	seth: no, that's when the only usability approved bugfixes to UI period starts 
12:46:42 <erikp>	irony: not being at school is the reason I can't help. :)
12:46:44 <seth>	sander: ah, ok
12:46:48 <sander>	seth: iirc
12:47:08 <seth>	sander: its actually good that application developers have to UI freeze before us, since it means we can really observe their applications in their "final states"
12:47:24 <seth>	OK...
12:47:40 <seth>	Lets run with the 1.5 weeks post to mailing list, 2 weeks or next meeting after that finalize
12:47:52 <seth>	I'll send out a reminder befor ethe 1.5 weeks
12:48:06 <seth>	I encourage people to get together in a group where there are multiple people working
12:48:26 <seth>	Objections?
12:48:45 <iDek>	sounds okay
12:48:48 <erikp>	can someone post the list of must-fix people w/ emails to usability@ so people can send them suggestions for bugs?
12:48:56 <seth>	erikp: yes
12:48:59 <iDek>	good thought.
12:49:06 <seth>	erikp: I'll send out an end of meeting report to the list, which should include thta
12:49:16 <erikp>	k
12:49:38 <seth>	adam_/calum: Could one of you give us a brief report of how the HIG is progressing?
12:49:50 <adam_>	sure
12:50:23 <adam_>	basically, we now have an outline of topics, volunteers to write most of the content, and a basic idea of the style in which the content will be written
12:51:07 <adam_>	we also have a calendar, which has a draft version for HIG-team comments on 28 Sept., a draft for wider comment on 26 October, and a final version on 30 November
12:51:29 <calum>	St.Andrew's Day  :)
12:51:50 <adam_>	calum: which is St. Andrew's Day? :)
12:51:57 <calum>	November 30th...
12:52:03 <adam_>	calum: ah, cool
12:52:23 <seth>	Excellent
12:52:32 <adam_>	anyway, I'm hoping to have volunteers for all the content by Monday, then we start writing
12:52:54 <adam_>	and also hopefully people will be committing to CVS so that comments can be made before the "official" comment period; we'll see how that works
12:52:58 <seth>	adam_: Are you guys doing fine in terms of number of people?
12:53:10 <adam_>	seth: at the moment, I think so
12:53:15 <seth>	excellent
12:53:25 <calum>	Depends how much we argue, and how much we write :)
12:53:30 <seth>	indeed
12:53:35 <adam_>	seth: we're a small enough group so that we can make decisions without huge arguments, but so far it looks like we have enough people to write everything we agreed to write
12:53:45 <adam_>	s/can make/have been able to make/ :)
12:54:03 <seth>	Darksheer: You want to give us your current thoughts on nautilus testing?
12:54:13 <adam_>	one last thing:
12:54:21 <Darksheer>	certainly..after adam_ finishes
12:54:37 <adam_>	we'll probably need to do a quick review in about two weeks to see how much content we have to see if we need to drag one or two more people in
12:54:57 <adam_>	but otherwise we should be okay
12:55:09 <adam_>	Darksheer: thanks, please go ahead :)
12:55:33 <seth>	adam_: cool
12:55:49 <Darksheer>	The way I see it, Nautilus is one of the largest, and possibly the most important application on the GNOME platform...
12:56:05 <seth>	(second maybe to the panel)
12:56:19 <iDek>	heh. :)
12:56:21 <nils>	and maybe the weather applet
12:56:29 <seth>	nils: What about wanda?
12:56:39 <iDek>	seth: which one?
12:56:41 <Darksheer>	And being that it is one application that no matter who a user is (agreed on the panel) they are going to interact with Nautilus in some way.
12:57:11 <seth>	Well, the 31337 h4><0rz interaction will be to turn it off, I think ;-)
12:57:36 <iDek>	seth: I guess jrb and chema aren't 31337 then
12:57:47 <Darksheer>	I think it might be reasonable for more than just one or two peopole to have a look for "must fix" bugs...because what is "must fix" to some people might be unimportant to another group.
12:57:56 <iDek>	Good point.
12:58:15 <Darksheer>	So, my plan is, by Sunday afternoon sometime to be sending out a "testing criteria" sheet for Nautilus.
12:58:31 <Darksheer>	I will post it to the list, it is not manditory or anything...but I'd like as many of us as possible to fill it out.
12:59:03 <Darksheer>	I imagine that it will take anywhere from 15 minutes to 45 minutes to finish depending on how familiar with Nautilus you are, and how thorough you are in testing.
12:59:35 <seth>	Darksheer: that sounds like a good idea
12:59:35 <iDek>	ok
12:59:41 <Darksheer>	Everyone is, of course, welcome to do additional testing and make additional suggestions...
12:59:57 <Darksheer>	...especially those people who have signed up formally to help with the Nautilus testing.
13:00:03 <nils>	Darksheer: cool
13:00:13 <Darksheer>	But I think the more people that can fill out the fairly short usability test for Nautilus, the better.
13:00:15 <seth>	Actually, that would be an interesting idea for every GNOME application
13:00:33 <Darksheer>	seth: agreed, but I don't know if we have time to hit many before GNOME2
13:00:49 <seth>	If we had usability tests published in a standard online place and instructions on performing basic usability testing we could try to encourage people to try a few
13:01:07 <seth>	I don't know if the data we'd get out would always be useful, but it might give people a better awareness of usability
13:01:23 <Darksheer>	seth: true, true...but again, is that feasable for pre-GNOME2?
13:01:35 <seth>	Darksheer: It just depends on us writing them up...so maybe
13:01:53 <seth>	Darksheer: I don't intend to test everything, its just a way to try and get more people involved in a non-commital way
13:02:05 <Darksheer>	seth: I'm not necessarily suggesting that it isn't...just trying to ensure that if we want to do this, we can get it done.
13:02:15 <Darksheer>	seth: understandable
13:02:22 <iDek>	The largest problem I have with nautilus is the preferences
13:02:24 <iDek>	They are insane
13:02:27 <Darksheer>	seth: tell me, does http://usability.gnome.org/ exist?
13:02:33 <seth>	Darksheer: sort of
13:02:37 <sander>	Darksheer: a potential problem is people making non-trivial UI changes in apps on gnome 2 vs. as they were on gnome 1.4
13:02:39 <seth>	Darksheer: it redirects to gup
13:02:43 <Darksheer>	iDek: agreed, I'll be railing those in my report.
13:02:45 <iDek>	It redirects to http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/
13:02:47 <seth>	Darksheer: Which is not really what I wanted, but such is life
13:03:06 <iDek>	Darksheer: like setting fonts on many places, and having settings for non-smooth fonts...those should clearly just be the system font, IMO
13:03:07 <sander>	Darksheer: so you probably need to get a buy-in of not doing that from the app author first
13:03:09 <seth>	sander: I haven't seen *too* many people doing that
13:03:25 <seth>	sander: I think most GNOME hackers just leave the UI alone once they've written it and just keep tacking things on
13:04:09 <seth>	OK, any items I've forgetten?
13:04:18 <seth>	ah, next meeting time
13:04:22 <seth>	Tenatively two weeks from today
13:04:29 <--	erikp has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
13:04:31 <seth>	I'll ask on the mailing list to make sure this time was OK
13:04:36 <Darksheer>	a quick comment on that...
13:04:37 <iDek>	I'm not sure...
13:04:52 <Darksheer>	Today was fine for me, but depending on times, I might not be able to attend meetings during the week due to class.
13:05:00 <Darksheer>	(I don't really feel like failing out of college)
13:05:02 <iDek>	If we're supposed to turn in drafts of our projects in 1.5 weeks, wouldn't it make sense to have the next meeting near then?
13:05:08 <seth>	Darksheer: yes, that will be a problem for me too
13:05:22 <kevinv>	seth: I have the same problems as Darksheer
13:05:22 <iDek>	hrm, I guess then people'd have a few days to read it though
13:05:28 <seth>	iDek: Drafts in 1.5 weeks to the mailing list
13:05:30 <iDek>	this time will be fine for me in two weeks
13:05:33 <seth>	iDek: Finalization during the meeting in two weeks
13:05:39 <iDek>	seth: ahh, ok
13:05:44 <Darksheer>	seth: well...if we're going to shoot for meetings on fridays...
13:05:47 <seth>	Is 2 weeks a problem for anyone re: school?
13:05:50 <iDek>	I won't have any classes in two weeks
13:05:54 <iDek>	(inbetween terms)
13:06:07 -->	erikp (erik@har3-41.dialup.neca.com) has joined #usability
13:06:24 <seth>	OK, we'll start a mailing list thread about this
13:06:30 <seth>	So I guess that's the end of the meeting :-)
13:06:32 <Darksheer>	seth: yeah, let's do that....
13:06:33 <seth>	Thank you all for coming
13:06:50 <seth>	If you weren't at the last meeting can you give us your name and e-mail address for the minutes?
13:07:15 <Darksheer>	I'm sure you've got it already, but:  Brian Crescimanno <darksheer@fotographix.com>
13:07:51 ---	Scrambler gives channel operator status to kevinv
13:08:24 <erikp>	Erik Pukinskis <erik@neca.com>
13:08:34 <seth>	Somebody have a log of this they can e-mail me?
13:08:37 <seth>	(snickell@stanford.edu)
13:08:41 <iDek>	seth: I think so
13:08:45 <iDek>	unless x-chat totally borked it
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13:08:46 <--	UnNamed has quit (ISP or TelCo nuked the line again, probably)
13:08:59 -->	UnNamed (500@167-MADR-X24.libre.retevision.es) has joined #usability
13:09:55 <iDek>	hehe - time to pipe this to uniq, I have two copies of every line since iDek joined :/
13:09:56 <seth>	iDek: if you want to do minutes, that would be cool, or I'll do them when I get home today
13:10:02 <seth>	lol
13:10:40 ---	seth is now known as sethWork
13:10:46 <iDek>	sethWork: See you.
13:10:58 <sethWork>	later guys
13:11:22 <iDek>	sethWork: Mailed you the log
13:11:24 *	adam_ is off to the Seattle Center, whee!
13:11:26 <adam_>	later all
13:11:30 <iDek>	adam_: see you!
13:11:48 <--	adam_ has quit (lata)
13:12:25 <erikp>	time for breakfast.  later.