oct 10 00:16:56 So let's take off then. oct 10 00:16:59 I have set up a Gobby Server mafiasi.de so that everybody can see the record to actually see what the current point is. Also, one could see my notes if I take any ;-) oct 10 00:18:16 muelli, cool entering now... oct 10 00:18:48 jjardon: :) I think it can be handy. Dunno yet though. Everybody is invited to join that of course :) oct 10 00:19:30 So the first point on the agenda is == New project: BugsquadGoals == oct 10 00:20:14 I like the idea. I just can't spontanously think of any such small tasks. Does anybody have an idea? oct 10 00:20:38 see the bottom of http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugDays oct 10 00:23:40 I think is a great task for new contributions: easy and very focalized task oct 10 00:24:14 jjardon: like maintenance jobs? oct 10 00:25:09 so yeah. The goal of that would be to encourage new people to join the bugsquad, I'd say. And having easy tasks that need to be done is a good start. Like gnome-love bugs... oct 10 00:25:40 on the other hand, the closing of bugs can create a huge backslash (as we have seen)... I am not sure beginners should tackle it oct 10 00:26:33 hm. Actually, new users wouldn't have bugzilla permissions right away *thinking* oct 10 00:27:11 then a question: what permissions are give to a beginner? oct 10 00:27:17 Maybe the second proposed bugsquadgoal is more apropiate? oct 10 00:27:28 jjardon: +1 oct 10 00:27:52 * fabio se ha marchado (Saliendo) oct 10 00:28:13 anyway, I think that bugsquadgoals would be useful for experimented bugsquaders too oct 10 00:28:43 so we can mark us a clear objective for a month, for example oct 10 00:28:55 er, What about setting bugs where a developer has acted (and accepted the bug) but the bug is still unconfirmed? oct 10 00:29:01 hggdh: good question. Maybe we have to distuingish. On the one hand we have brand new users who don't have permissions at all who maybe just stumbled across the Bugsquad page. OTOH there might new triagers who still don't feel comfortable doing stuff on the bugzilla. oct 10 00:29:21 hggdh: I'd say it's clearly a NEW then. oct 10 00:29:38 so now I guess we could set it as a goal oct 10 00:30:50 I like the idea to use NEW, but we should stablish a general and clear rule to know if we can change to NEW oct 10 00:30:55 hggdh: So add "Search for obviously confirmed, but still UNCONFIRMED bugs" to BugsSquadGoals? oct 10 00:31:18 muelli, +1 oct 10 00:31:25 Yes. Then we can take them out of the bugsquad radar oct 10 00:31:33 but, what is obviously confirmed? oct 10 00:31:43 and put them squarely in the developers arena oct 10 00:32:11 jjardon: I don't know whether there is a sharp line. I feel it's kinda blurry. It's clearly a NEW if the maintainer writes "This is a bug which need to be fixed". And it's clearly not when the maintainer writes "I dunno yet, why should we doo $foo". oct 10 00:32:12 IMHO, it is a bug that a dev has acted, and at no point stated it is *NOT* a valid issue. oct 10 00:32:46 hggdh: I'd say this includes too much. But I might have a solution to this problem. oct 10 00:33:10 Well, the problem being that someone, call her newbie, does things to the bugzilla that might upset some people. oct 10 00:33:49 So I think once we give away bugzilla CANEDIT permissions, the one who gave this permissions away should follow the person closely for a couple of, say, weeks. oct 10 00:34:21 Unfortunately I don't think there's a good way to do that. Although I have to admit that I haven't checked to current bugzilla yet. *blush* oct 10 00:34:22 +1 -- I was going to suggest mentoring, but this is better -- and was/is done, already oct 10 00:34:28 muelli, +1 oct 10 00:34:35 oh, there is a problem oct 10 00:34:43 not many can give CANEDIT oct 10 00:34:56 hggdh: that could change :-) oct 10 00:35:02 heh oct 10 00:35:30 I think this is a good option. We will get a bit more of emails, but will be easier to follow the work on starters oct 10 00:35:32 Also, one could establish the policy that someone gives CANEDIT and a third one, an experienced triager, watches the person closely. oct 10 00:35:59 we could, but this is bound to create problems oct 10 00:36:09 we are forcing a third person into the action oct 10 00:36:38 unless we create a group of volunteers oct 10 00:37:06 oh. hm. I didn't think of it this way. I though of it as we're discussing the mentoring once a month during a meeting or so. We could have a queue of people ready for mentoring incoming new triagers. oct 10 00:37:46 So you could say now that you have time for, say, 2 new people and someone who can give away CANEDIT informs both of you after permissions have been given away. oct 10 00:38:07 * owen se ha marchado (Ping timeout: 600 seconds) oct 10 00:38:14 good enough oct 10 00:38:38 Also, we can create a wiki page for new contributors with a list of people that have CANEDIT permissions, so new contributors can contect with them oct 10 00:39:44 Yep :) oct 10 00:39:51 "If you watch a user, it is as if you are standing in their shoes for the purposes of getting email. Email is sent or not according to your preferences for their relationship to the bug (e.g. Assignee)." that's clearly unfortunate. We want to get all the actions of the watched user but not our own of course. Is anybody really familiar with bugzilla internals? fredp? mkanat? owen? oct 10 00:40:27 muelli: that's already what happened in the past, when you give permissions to someone you susbcribe to their changes oct 10 00:41:02 i haven't done that in the new bugzilla, but it used to be possible (and easy) oct 10 00:41:11 Susana_: Yes I know. At least that's what's the supposed workflow is. And I think it's great :) But how would you watch a user properly? oct 10 00:41:56 by looking at the emails you get oct 10 00:42:10 :) oct 10 00:43:45 well, there is a simple way to find out... one of us get in with a different email, and somebody else sets a watch on oct 10 00:43:59 Susana_: :D I look at my emails 30 times a day and I don't automagically get every change you made to a bug. oct 10 00:44:36 k. So we can either investigate on that right now or find one, two people to do that for next month. I'm fine with both of these options :-) oct 10 00:45:39 Where Can I put the list of users with CANEDIT permissions? http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/TriageGuide ? oct 10 00:46:37 not with CANEDIT, but that can *set* CANEDIT oct 10 00:46:38 jjardon: good question. That's another point on the Agenda IIRC. I don't know. But I feel we should know about that.. oct 10 00:47:25 hggdh, oh yes, can set CANEDIT ;) oct 10 00:49:18 let's put it as a to-do, and move on oct 10 00:49:24 * wers (~allan@112.203.115.194) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 00:49:39 k oct 10 00:50:28 hggdh: do you actually volunteer for that job? ^^ Note that this is just a question without the intent to put pressure on you. oct 10 00:51:37 yes, I do, I see no problem with that. I already do that on Ubuntu oct 10 00:51:53 anyway, I think we can set a BugsquadGoal to us, the bugsquad team oct 10 00:52:05 one goal for month, for example oct 10 00:52:09 muelli: you would get all my bug emails if you watched my address on bugzilla oct 10 00:53:38 Susana_: But the page https://bugzilla.gnome.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email reads: If you watch a user, it is as if you are standing in their shoes for the purposes of getting email. Email is sent or not according to your preferences for their relationship to the bug (e.g. Assignee). So I of course have not set to get email once I change something to a bug. So I won't get any email if my watchee changes something on a bug. Hav oct 10 00:53:38 en;t tried though. But hggdh does that until the next meeting :-) oct 10 00:53:48 about the set canedit, usually people get that after having helped a few new triagers from what i've seen in this channel oct 10 00:54:16 so ACTION: hggdh to investigate on how to follow someone properly oct 10 00:54:41 * muelli thinks of opening bugs for each ACTION since we have the new bugzilla module... oct 10 00:55:36 muelli, good idea oct 10 00:55:48 (use the new bugzilla module) oct 10 00:55:54 k. I'll do that in the meantime. oct 10 00:55:59 muelli: only issue is I cannot give out CANEDIT oct 10 00:56:42 hggdh: uh, Why is that a problem? oct 10 00:57:49 the easiest way to find out is to set a new account on b.g.o, and then play with it oct 10 00:58:08 of course, there is always the RTFM thingy... ;-) oct 10 00:58:11 ah. get it -.- oct 10 00:58:42 hggdh: what's your bugzilla asdress? oct 10 00:59:22 * DrBob se ha marchado (Leaving.) oct 10 00:59:30 hggdh2 at gmail dot com, or hggdh2 at ubuntu dot com -- sorry do not really remember oct 10 00:59:56 gmail that is oct 10 01:00:01 k. will sort this out. oct 10 01:00:23 heh. Thanks. the trouble with having very similar email addresses... oct 10 01:00:43 So we're in consent that having newbies editing bugs is not that much of a problem since the newbie will be followed closely...? oct 10 01:01:12 * wers se ha marchado (Remote closed the connection) oct 10 01:01:49 muelli, +1 from me oct 10 01:02:38 muelli: i still don't understand one thing: what is going to change from today's process? oct 10 01:03:01 Susana_: not much I hope :) oct 10 01:03:05 what are you proposing to change? oct 10 01:03:54 Susana_: hggdh just raised that it could be a problem to have official goals for newbies that involve closing bugs. oct 10 01:04:27 I just wanted to get straight that that is not much of a problem. oct 10 01:05:07 given the backslash we usually have when we close them bugs oct 10 01:05:30 we can weather it, but a beginner will most probably just skip ship oct 10 01:06:28 so do we have another ideas for beginners besides "to add new BugsquadGoal: setting bugs to NEW where a developer has acted (and accepted the bug) but the bug is still UNCONFIRMED" oct 10 01:07:15 finding duplicates oct 10 01:07:22 good one oct 10 01:07:32 yeah oct 10 01:07:33 not that easy though, I think oct 10 01:07:50 i'd say all the tasks in the triage guide are good ;) oct 10 01:08:42 and finding duplicates of bugs with a valid trace? oct 10 01:09:12 I think there is a tool in bugzilla to automatically search for bugs with the same trace oct 10 01:09:45 there was -- simplebugfinder oct 10 01:10:36 it's built in nowadays. It's not as handy I'd say though. oct 10 01:10:49 no, you need to open a bug to check on it oct 10 01:13:33 Should we create a new page for the BugsquadGoals? similar to http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals oct 10 01:14:43 hm. If it's for Newbies, I think I wouldn't call it BugsquadGoals. oct 10 01:15:04 I think it's not that inviting for beginners. oct 10 01:15:48 GnomeGoals are for beginners ;) oct 10 01:16:35 :-) oct 10 01:17:16 oh really? -.- oct 10 01:17:26 * nxvl se ha marchado (leaving) oct 10 01:17:33 jjardon: but goals are accomplished somewhere in time, triaging is never ending oct 10 01:17:34 well, yeah. What can I say? -.- oct 10 01:17:50 Susana_: but just because we're lacking manpower :D oct 10 01:18:06 Also, we can make a list of bugsquadgoals for beginners and a list of bugsquad goals for more experienced triagers oct 10 01:18:13 well. My goal is *not* fattening up. It is never-ending oct 10 01:18:42 hehe oct 10 01:18:43 starter tasks? oct 10 01:19:19 yep. sounds good. oct 10 01:19:29 Doesn't Ubuntu have such a thing? oct 10 01:19:46 we have bugdays, and jams oct 10 01:20:16 some bugdays are easy tasks (like yesterday), some are bad experiences... oct 10 01:20:39 but we use to mark some bugs are bytesize, etc oct 10 01:21:07 hm. alright, so we currently lack a name for the BugsquadGoals, right? oct 10 01:21:29 yes. Starter Actions? oct 10 01:22:57 yeah, sounds good. I don't care that much actually, although it's not unimportant to have an appealing name.. *shrug*. oct 10 01:23:28 I like BugsquadGoals name (only my opinnion) ;) oct 10 01:25:46 hm jjardon . because of it's consistency with GnomeGoals? oct 10 01:25:57 muelli, yeah oct 10 01:27:01 fine for me oct 10 01:27:44 Hm. As Susana_ said, it's not that we have consistent goals either. GNOME Goals are probably measurable. Like you can see when Goal 1 is finished. But you'll never finish the goal "Set all Bugs to NEW". I mean you could of course, but tomorrow it'll be all new again.. oct 10 01:27:57 although i still think a goal achievement should be mesurable oct 10 01:28:00 * mruiz (~mruiz@pc-53-86-161-190.cm.vtr.net) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 01:28:06 Maybe it still makes sense. I mean I hunted down all NEEDINFO bugs older than 6 month or so.. Could be a perfect goal. oct 10 01:28:15 yeah oct 10 01:28:58 muelli, thar is the idea ;) oct 10 01:29:05 dunno. As I said, I don't really care and I wouldn't fight for it. Maybe we should come up with proper goals for next month and try to give it a name then... oct 10 01:29:48 We probably can't really take off until the following issue is properly resolved anyway. oct 10 01:30:52 Hm. No agreement on that either... ;-) oct 10 01:31:35 muelli, I lost you oct 10 01:33:44 hggdh: I'm still here :-D I think the current problem is, how to name the newbies tasks. Either StarterTasks or BugsquadGoals, because it's the former might be more inviting but the latter more consistent... oct 10 01:34:36 OK. One of the BugSquadGoals is to set up Starter Tasks oct 10 01:34:45 there. oct 10 01:34:46 :D oct 10 01:34:52 hehe oct 10 01:34:56 we have a mensurable goal oct 10 01:34:58 * Susana_ es ahora conocido como Susana oct 10 01:35:28 I think maybe we should have measurable goals. One could say to hunt down all Evolution pre 2.22 crashers and ask for new stacktraces or so... oct 10 01:35:29 :-) oct 10 01:35:55 muelli, +2 ;) oct 10 01:35:57 I might be a good thing for a newcomer to achieve^tm something. oct 10 01:36:01 muelli: +1 oct 10 01:36:20 we should, yes. We have to verify if we are accomplishing anything oct 10 01:36:53 wonderful. So we stick to BugsquadGoals with specific tasks and have the general ones sorted out into the TriageGuide? oct 10 01:37:13 Maybe in an own section? Like "What to do when you're bored?"? oct 10 01:37:30 E_OUTOFFOOD. brb. oct 10 01:38:59 so who wants to make a wiki page with the goals? oct 10 01:39:17 jjardon? ;-) oct 10 01:39:40 http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugsquadGoals oct 10 01:39:42 :) oct 10 01:40:08 this *was* fast! oct 10 01:40:23 :) oct 10 01:40:55 jjardon: you're amazing :) oct 10 01:41:06 the idea of revisiting old (now out-of-support) bugs and asking for update is a really nice one oct 10 01:41:41 yeah oct 10 01:41:45 hggdh, Add to the wiki ;) oct 10 01:42:10 also triaging the bugs you reported oct 10 01:42:20 in experienced bugsquaders, I'd say oct 10 01:43:11 We can have two sections: a never-ending goals, and a month-special goal or something similar oct 10 01:45:07 jjardon: like focusing on one application? oct 10 01:45:18 for example oct 10 01:45:21 yes, good one. oct 10 01:45:22 ups product oct 10 01:46:01 sounds good oct 10 01:46:06 we should ask the devels if they need help in a specific problem oct 10 01:46:31 and we can focus in it for a month or until they was solved oct 10 01:46:49 I updated the page to show an example oct 10 01:47:13 we can try. But I am not willing to email g-devel asking for it. They bite back. oct 10 01:47:21 ^^ oct 10 01:48:50 we should offer our help, nothing more ;) oct 10 01:49:18 anyway we have our never-ending goals ;) oct 10 01:50:18 hum. never-ending objectives? Although an objective also pretty much requires an end oct 10 01:50:19 yes when we announce the goals we can ask for suggestions for future goals... oct 10 01:50:52 should we move to the next topic? oct 10 01:50:57 yes oct 10 01:50:59 yes oct 10 01:52:14 * muelli nods oct 10 01:52:23 But let me just ask how we remain with this topic. oct 10 01:52:47 Is it jjardon who sets up BugsquadGoals until the next meeting? oct 10 01:52:58 or just the page and we all think about some goals? oct 10 01:54:18 the page is set with some goals, I think we can make an announcement to get more ideas from devels oct 10 01:55:22 but we can start working with these goals oct 10 01:56:13 +1 oct 10 01:56:23 Sounds good :) I'd wait with an announcement until we have this follower thing sorted out though. :) Okay, so on the next meeting we'll discuss how to announce and promote these goals... oct 10 01:57:49 Next point is == Report conclusions here: [[Bugsquad/DirectiveDiscussion]] == then. oct 10 01:58:15 What does this point actually mean? :) I mean is it just a general awareness thing or do we have to update it right now? oct 10 01:59:53 http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/DirectiveDiscussion that is oct 10 02:00:28 I think that we can delete that page oct 10 02:00:47 and merge the content to http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/TriageGuide oct 10 02:01:16 perhaps a good and worthy goal would be to check the TriageGuide re. updates oct 10 02:03:15 hm. oct 10 02:03:29 * awalton se ha marchado (Leaving) oct 10 02:03:35 yes that would is a good goal oct 10 02:03:41 *be oct 10 02:05:11 jjardon: Why would you deprecate that page in favour of the TriageGuide? oct 10 02:05:11 jjardon: can you add that goal to the list? oct 10 02:06:21 muelli, because the info of that page is the same of Triageguide oct 10 02:07:50 muelli: in the triage guide it would be more visible oct 10 02:08:01 yeah, probably :) oct 10 02:08:19 and the page contains instructions on how to triage so I think it belongs in the guide yes oct 10 02:09:11 I volunter to kill that page ;) oct 10 02:09:22 The intention of both pages were different though, I'd say. TriageGuide was supposed to be for Newbies whereas the DirectiveDiscussions are about policies to stick to. f.e. in case of misunderstandings... oct 10 02:10:07 but yeah, one could use TriageGuide for that as well. The Information will be a bit buried then though. Not that much of a problem. oct 10 02:10:32 muelli, what is the difference between directive page and the diagram in Triageguide ? ;) oct 10 02:11:52 well jjardon. At least the intentions :-) In doubt, the DirectiveDiscussion would be kind of a rule to be judged about whereas TriageGuide is more a collection of useful hints.. But that's debatable of course. oct 10 02:12:12 Maybe adding a deprecated warning to that wikipage would be good, instead of killing it directly. You'll never know who bookmarked that page... oct 10 02:12:42 makes sense oct 10 02:12:54 +1 oct 10 02:13:04 I agree -- a deprecated mark is better than removing the page oct 10 02:13:20 +1 oct 10 02:15:30 as jjardon already volunteered, let's put him in charge ;-) oct 10 02:15:42 okis :) oct 10 02:15:52 ACTION: jjardon to mark DirectiveDiscussion as deprecated and link to TriageGuide oct 10 02:16:26 Anything else on updating DirectiveDiscussions? oct 10 02:16:35 i.e. any "rules" we want to write down? oct 10 02:16:40 or Policies? oct 10 02:17:34 nope from me oct 10 02:17:56 Next one is == Future of Bugsquad/BugDays == then oct 10 02:18:11 Oh boy, I'd love to see a next bugday again :-) But it needs at least some manpower. I'd say we'd need a cool logo, some blog entries, a nice task which is possible conquer in a day and of course people hanging around in IRC and actually doing stuff. oct 10 02:18:36 great! bugdays!! oct 10 02:20:10 I want to join the team and bugdays would be great to learn oct 10 02:21:02 muelli: we can ask the gnome artwork team to help us make a logo oct 10 02:21:21 and images to put on blog posts to announce the bugday oct 10 02:21:36 Susana: that'd be awesome oct 10 02:21:43 mruiz: I started contributing to GNOME on a bugday :) oct 10 02:21:49 Susana, +1 oct 10 02:21:53 Susana, great! oct 10 02:21:54 i love bugdays oct 10 02:22:10 mruiz: *yay* you're more than welcome. Right now is a bit bad though because we're having a meeting. You're welcome to participate and state your oppinions though :) oct 10 02:22:35 yeah, me too. But it's better well organized ;-) oct 10 02:23:04 I've never participate in a bugday :( oct 10 02:23:34 I would like to participate in one ;) oct 10 02:23:37 So yeah, I mean we could ask ArtTeam for logo or promo stuff anyway, maybe with a simple date field to fill out manually. So that we have stuff in advance... oct 10 02:25:18 muelli, thanks oct 10 02:25:48 Somebody has a friend in the art team ;) oct 10 02:26:46 _0/ oct 10 02:26:47 So what artwork do we actually need? oct 10 02:27:09 A logo to blog a couple of times? oct 10 02:27:35 A banner for bugzilla? Like "watch out, today is bugday - your bugs are going to be smashed"? %) oct 10 02:28:22 There's this "hang on while I'm processing your search" thing, right? One could have a "It takes a bit longer today^W BUGAY" picture or so... oct 10 02:28:23 hehe oct 10 02:28:45 :) oct 10 02:28:55 muelli: that would be really cool oct 10 02:30:13 so bug day next month? oct 10 02:30:52 Susana, +1 oct 10 02:31:04 +1 oct 10 02:31:18 I'm not that convinced that we have to power to run that properly though :-| oct 10 02:31:34 but maybe hggdh can help us out with his Ubuntu experience :-) oct 10 02:32:19 :-) oct 10 02:32:40 basically, what we need is a target to run the bugday against oct 10 02:32:50 and a lot of announcements oct 10 02:32:58 I'd say to have a further meeting before Bugday though. Maybe just to coordinate final stuff. Maybe we should plan for two month anyway. To get the promo stuff until next month and plan the rest for the month after that. oct 10 02:33:06 I agree oct 10 02:33:21 there is more to the tale, the way it is done at Ubuntu oct 10 02:34:17 * owen (~otaylor@pool-74-104-160-169.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 02:34:22 I have no experience with the ArtTeam... oct 10 02:35:03 I can ask to a friend about it . He works with the ArtTeam. oct 10 02:35:09 a few days before we can make a page with a list of easy bugs to triage oct 10 02:35:37 or select a project, and work on their unconfirmed bugs oct 10 02:35:43 sure oct 10 02:36:04 Maybe something in GNOME 3.0 direction. Or at least with the 3.0 motivation oct 10 02:36:32 like "in order to successfully start into a new era, let's kill old bugs which would slow us down" or so oct 10 02:37:29 Besides not knowing how long it takes the Artteam to produce anything, I don't know how much discussion it raises to have a bugzilla banner installed ;-) So I think we'd be better off planning for two month. oct 10 02:37:50 +1 oct 10 02:38:08 muelli, great idea oct 10 02:40:27 Susana: what do you say? oct 10 02:41:17 sounds good oct 10 02:43:21 so we plan the bugday better next meeting, right? oct 10 02:43:45 hm. oct 10 02:43:54 I'd say to start planning right now. oct 10 02:44:03 Like at least collecting what atomic todos it takes to run a bugday. oct 10 02:44:15 And ask external parties like the artteam to work for us ;-) oct 10 02:44:47 I prorpose to send ideas to the agenda page, so we have some for the next meeting oct 10 02:46:27 jjardon: you mean bugday ideas ala "Check all Evolution<2.22 crashers"? oct 10 02:47:31 for example, yes. We need different options and targets for the bugdays oct 10 02:47:45 muelli, for example oct 10 02:48:28 k. what's a good target then? oct 10 02:49:05 or better: what makes a good target? oct 10 02:49:10 or we can send a announcement to the devels and tell the interesed one to fill the agenda with their main bugs oct 10 02:49:52 Should it be a rather big one "Close 5000 bugs today" or a couple of smaller ones? oct 10 02:50:54 muelli: goals like "close xxx bugs" can lead us into problems oct 10 02:51:00 jjardon: Could be a good idea. Bugdays are for attracting newbies, though. So we should communicate that they better not file requests dealing with potentially important bugs oct 10 02:51:30 we don't want people to close bugs just for closing oct 10 02:51:37 * muelli nods oct 10 02:52:21 So in order to write the "find good goals" todo down, I think it'd be good to think about what a good goal is. oct 10 02:52:33 It's not that obvious to me, I have to admit. oct 10 02:53:17 usefull, simple and mesurable oct 10 02:53:32 and hopefully atractive oct 10 02:53:33 I mean, the goalis to attract new people to join the bugsquad by doing something important together. oct 10 02:54:05 let's look at bugs from product xxxx oct 10 02:54:14 or with xxx keywork set oct 10 02:54:52 or provide a list of bugs and triage all of those oct 10 02:55:42 *nod* oct 10 02:55:54 Susana, the last one would be great for newbies oct 10 02:56:05 I'm thinking of bugs with patches right now. I'm writing that down as an idea to file later on. oct 10 02:57:03 muelli, great oct 10 02:57:15 muelli: you mean test submited patches? that sounds good for a patchsquad day but not that good for bug day oct 10 02:57:16 As we expect to have many people, we need a good bunch of CANEDIT triagers as well, I'd say. Or do we give CANEDIT to the newbies straight away? oct 10 02:57:50 Susana: no. Rather bitrotting patches. like 300 days old bugs. ask the maintainer if there's anything wrong with the patch or so. oct 10 02:58:07 muelli: usually new triagers need to triage a few bugs first oct 10 02:58:34 and yes we should have at least someone who can give canedit perms oct 10 02:58:48 Susana: sure. I just imagine 1000 new people coming and starting to do the bugday -.- oct 10 02:59:05 other idea: tell developers to set a key in the bugs that they want to get triaged oct 10 02:59:14 i can do it, but i probably can't be on irc all day ;) oct 10 02:59:29 but that CANEDIT problem could probably be discussed next time. I'd say we'd rather collect todos to get an idea of what to prioritize and what may take longer so that we'd better take care about that ASAP oct 10 02:59:42 jjardon: adding keywords for triaging generates a lot of bug spam oct 10 02:59:58 it is best to make a list on a wiki page i think oct 10 03:00:02 (which would leads us to a point buried furhter down in the agenda) oct 10 03:00:36 hum. We need a way of mass-updating oct 10 03:00:56 which I guess is the point Muelli was referring to oct 10 03:01:12 hggdh: mass updating? oct 10 03:02:56 muelli: making a banner and putting it on bugzilla is probably what will take longer oct 10 03:03:08 hm. I was not particularly referring to a mass updating mechanism for the bugs. But rather a mechanism that the changes, people would make on bugs, can be more or less easily submited oct 10 03:03:15 but it is not necessary to put it on bugzilla oct 10 03:03:54 the most important is to make sure there are enough experienced triagers during the day oct 10 03:03:55 yeah. I agree. would be nice to have a banner at the top, though. I think it'll make the people feel good, seeing that it's kind of their day :) oct 10 03:04:49 yeah oct 10 03:04:58 I'd say we also need a banner, or some image to post around. Like on p.g.o, the wiki, maybe some announcements somewere I don't know.. oct 10 03:05:10 Susana, yeah, the main objective is that people learn how triage bugs oct 10 03:06:41 Maybe we can produce screencasts for that. oct 10 03:07:04 Like the one from Philip Withnal IIRC who show how to create a patch... oct 10 03:08:15 muelli: this was the last banner: http://bit.ly/WrTbM oct 10 03:08:39 If we have a measurable goal, I think it'd be nice to have kind of a bot keeping the people informed. Like kind of a moderation. "Heya folks, we got 60% already! Keep on going and we're done with this by 17:42" or so... oct 10 03:08:40 muelli: that would be a great idea oct 10 03:09:35 hehe oct 10 03:10:14 heh, I stole that one somewhere: http://blogs.gnome.org/muelli/files/2009/08/bug-hunt-wgo.png oct 10 03:11:47 maybe we can patch bugbuddy or apport to show that it's a bugday somewhere in December :D oct 10 03:12:11 :) oct 10 03:13:06 muelli: hmm i don't think we should do that... oct 10 03:13:10 lol oct 10 03:14:42 hm. well. That's quite a lot todos already I'd say. oct 10 03:15:23 oh, btw. I take notes via gobby at mafiasi.de. Just in case you want to have peak... oct 10 03:15:28 well, I can check if there would be any problems announcing it at Ubuntu. Also, keep in mind that UDS will be in mid-November oct 10 03:16:42 i don't have gobby here and cannot install it right now :/ oct 10 03:17:21 they'll be sent to the list right? oct 10 03:18:09 According to http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven we are going to free modules from dependencies. A job could be to mark bugs containing deprecated modules as NEEDINFO or so so that they can be collected once the dependencies have been abandoned... oct 10 03:18:14 Susana: I hope so ;) oct 10 03:18:52 anything else we want to note for running a bugday? oct 10 03:19:01 So far it's oct 10 03:19:01 * Find good goals for a bugday. Useful, simple, measurable und attractive. Maybe "look at bugs from product xxxx" or "with keyword foo" oct 10 03:19:01 * Have a banner to be placed at the top of bugzilla. This is not a must but we be nice to show the appreceation for the new people. Involves asking ArtTeam and bugzilla-admins. oct 10 03:19:01 * Have an image or a logo which can be posted around. oct 10 03:19:02 * Produce Screencasts on how to triage a bug. oct 10 03:19:04 * If there is a measurable goal, an IRC bot might be nice, ala "Heya folks, we got 60% already! Keep on going and we're done with this by 17:42" oct 10 03:19:14 * fabio (~fabio@250-52-246-201.adsl.terra.cl) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 03:20:14 muelli, thare already are some GnomeGoals for that: see http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/RemoveDeprecatedSymbols/Glib, for example oct 10 03:20:41 and http://www.gnome.org/~fpeters/299.html oct 10 03:21:50 yep. oct 10 03:21:51 ENOBEER, brb oct 10 03:22:38 I guess it might be useful to ask artteam for a logo and a banner for the bugday ASAP. oct 10 03:22:49 hi everybody oct 10 03:23:01 Probably ask them to produce something where one could easily replace or insert a date and a time oct 10 03:23:22 muelli, I can do it oct 10 03:23:44 mruiz, great! oct 10 03:24:30 mruiz: :) oct 10 03:24:50 Okay, do we want to give any further contraints? oct 10 03:25:10 I mean for the blog image, it's that is has to fit in, say, 400x300 or so... oct 10 03:25:20 * Susana se ha marchado (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) oct 10 03:28:43 probably not. I don't really care about colour or so.. And we don't even have a logo which could or should be built in. oct 10 03:29:47 * Susana (~Susana@bl6-11-132.dsl.telepac.pt) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 03:29:58 argh oct 10 03:30:13 the time/date should be flexible to insert though. oct 10 03:30:13 sorry people my internet connection is terrible today oct 10 03:30:29 hi fabio :) oct 10 03:30:38 hi muelli oct 10 03:31:22 okay, ACTION mruiz to ask ArtTeam for a logo for blogs and a bugzilla banner. A template to flexibly fill in date/time. oct 10 03:31:40 (to make it more greppable: oct 10 03:31:43 ACTION: mruiz to ask ArtTeam for a logo for blogs and a bugzilla banner. A template to flexibly fill in date/time. oct 10 03:31:50 :-) oct 10 03:32:19 If anybody could create a screencast, it'd be so awesome... oct 10 03:34:12 * hggdh does not even have a camera... oct 10 03:34:20 haha oct 10 03:34:40 you could install one easily ;-) it's called istanbul... oct 10 03:35:31 Okay, it's probably a task for everybody to think about good Bugday Goals and add them somewhere to the wiki... oct 10 03:36:50 mruiz: what's your bugzilla handle? oct 10 03:37:16 anyway, Bug 597971 is your bug. try to take it :-) oct 10 03:37:17 Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=597971 normal, Normal, 2009-10 Meeting, bugsquad-maint, NEW, Request Bugday Promomaterial from ArtTeam oct 10 03:37:24 muelli, I'm starting to use it :-) oct 10 03:38:17 mruiz: great :) oct 10 03:38:53 muelli, I think we can file ideas in BugDays page: http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugDays oct 10 03:40:14 yep oct 10 03:40:18 :-) oct 10 03:40:19 hehe we're a bugzilla product now oct 10 03:40:32 :-) oct 10 03:40:35 jejejeje... oct 10 03:40:42 i had no idea oct 10 03:40:52 yes :-) Maybe I should have followed up on g-b.. hmm.. oct 10 03:41:25 it is just and sensible that bugsquad has its own bugs. Just sort of self-referencing oct 10 03:42:40 I've added a new section on the bottom of http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugDays, what do you think? oct 10 03:43:29 i think it should have it's own page oct 10 03:43:29 for goal ideas oct 10 03:43:33 voting banners oct 10 03:43:44 list of places where to announce oct 10 03:43:45 this can be built in a philosophy discussion. In this case, this poster might help: http://scienceblogs.com/ethicsandscience/2009/09/psychohazard.php?utm_source=combinedfeed&utm_medium=rss oct 10 03:45:29 Hm. What else do we need to get a bugday rocking? oct 10 03:46:53 a list of people who will be here oct 10 03:47:04 it would be good to have developer/maintainer agreement/acceptance oct 10 03:47:05 *nod* oct 10 03:47:21 Apparently it's hard to get all people together on one day... oct 10 03:47:28 hggdh: in what way? oct 10 03:48:12 muelli: even if we can't fill a whole day, a few hours is better than nothing oct 10 03:48:12 a bugday has the potential to generate a lot of bugmail. Some developers, as we very well know, are not happy with that oct 10 03:49:18 hggdh: as long as we don't close valid bugs i don't see why that would have aproblem with that oct 10 03:49:27 *they oct 10 03:49:45 *shrug* I mean, it's true. But we shouldn't be afraid or anything. Bugzilla is more or less our thing, damnit. oct 10 03:49:50 yes, I agree. But better fore-warn them oct 10 03:49:50 they're alreay used to it oct 10 03:49:50 arghhh lag again oct 10 03:50:00 yep. We should do that *note* oct 10 03:50:10 am i still here? oct 10 03:50:16 Susana: yes oct 10 03:50:28 ah uhf oct 10 03:50:32 :) oct 10 03:52:14 hm. k. anything else to note for further todo? oct 10 03:52:42 I think we covered enough ground, muelli. Time to stop and look at the todos oct 10 03:53:07 yeah oct 10 03:53:32 *nod* oct 10 03:54:36 I actually didn't really intend to do it right now, besides the ones that take time, of course. But we already got the Art Request covered. So I don't know. We could try to distribute the todos now... oct 10 03:55:07 we are all here. Let's do it, then. oct 10 03:56:11 kk. oct 10 03:56:41 It's not that much though. oct 10 03:57:05 well, the first thing I've written down is "Find good goals for a bugday. Useful, simple, measurable und attractive. Maybe "look at bugs from product xxxx" or "with keyword foo" " oct 10 03:57:50 I don't think it's a hard todo to be distributed right now though. We could do that next month during the next meeting. Maybe have someone to dedicatedly collect some ideas... oct 10 03:58:35 for example, select some products as candidates oct 10 03:59:31 i think we should all add the ideas we have and then discuss/add some more during next meeting oct 10 03:59:38 yeah. Or Versions. Or something GNOME 3.0 related. oct 10 04:00:24 yep Susana. The problem is that the people will forget to do that ;-) So we probably need at least someone to remind the people about adding their ideas to that list. oct 10 04:00:25 any other todos? oct 10 04:00:40 muelli: ok, i can do that oct 10 04:01:08 i'll add a page to plan the bug day oct 10 04:01:14 and ask for feedback on the list oct 10 04:01:19 great oct 10 04:01:23 does that sound good? oct 10 04:01:37 yes oct 10 04:01:38 Susana, cool :) oct 10 04:01:48 * Have a banner to be placed at the top of bugzilla. This is not a must but we be nice to show the appreciation for the new people. Involves asking ArtTeam and bugzilla-admins. oct 10 04:02:10 muelli assign to Susana her bug ;) oct 10 04:02:48 ACTION: oct 10 04:02:50 arr oct 10 04:02:51 ACTION: Susana to create a bugday planning page and ask people to add their ideas. oct 10 04:03:43 I think I'd wait with the last point since we have that banner. but I'm not sure whether it's good. oct 10 04:04:02 One could actually ask now whether we could add such a banner once we have it.. oct 10 04:04:14 it's probably better. The sooner the better. oct 10 04:05:27 So I can do that. I'll ask gnome-infrastructure whether it's possible to have a banner on top of every bugzilla page on a special day... Probably linked to a bugday page. oct 10 04:05:37 exactly oct 10 04:05:44 the sooner the better oct 10 04:05:45 :-) oct 10 04:06:08 but even if we can't, that's not very important oct 10 04:06:24 yes oct 10 04:06:34 but it shouldn't be too difficult oct 10 04:06:36 * Have an image or a logo which can be posted around. oct 10 04:06:40 that's done by mruiz. oct 10 04:06:47 but we all need to blog something. oct 10 04:07:00 when they are about to take bugzilla down for maintemaince they show a message too oct 10 04:07:50 muelli, I'm going to microbloggin it ;) oct 10 04:08:33 So maybe we need something for hggdh to be announce at ubuntu somewhere... oct 10 04:08:41 muelli: blog, send email to gnome-love, -devel, maybe ubuntu, etc oct 10 04:08:58 Maybe we can highjack other platforms besides l.g.o and p.g.o such as a gentoo or ubuntu forum. oct 10 04:09:04 Maybe there's even a GNOME forum...? oct 10 04:09:07 * neosergio (~neosergio@190.40.244.103) ha abandonado #bugs oct 10 04:10:10 muelli: yes, there is oct 10 04:10:28 muelli, there already is a gtk forum oct 10 04:10:29 http://gnomesupport.org/forums/ oct 10 04:10:49 So we could post there as well, I guess :-) oct 10 04:12:46 sure oct 10 04:12:59 ok, anything else? oct 10 04:13:13 i have to go to sleep now oct 10 04:13:18 me too :-\ oct 10 04:13:27 Sure there is other stuff. oct 10 04:13:44 But do we want to have someone to write an announcement? oct 10 04:13:55 Maybe with the date and time left out... oct 10 04:14:10 like "Soon back to you" oct 10 04:14:11 and somebody to research where to post... oct 10 04:14:14 ? oct 10 04:15:07 muelli: the announcement is a bit dependent on the idea for the bugday oct 10 04:15:17 indeed oct 10 04:15:24 if it will be centered in 3.0 or not oct 10 04:15:30 I guess we won't have a fixed date before next meeting anyway oct 10 04:15:32 and the goals oct 10 04:15:49 yeah i think that can be done in the end oct 10 04:16:24 * Produce Screencasts on how to triage a bug. oct 10 04:17:06 That'd be nice. And probably not as much work as it sounds. Probably takes a bit courage to have ones voice in the internet though. oct 10 04:17:38 hmm is bugzilla going to change in the near future? oct 10 04:18:20 screencasts are a great idea but these are strange times, if bugzilla changes they become outdated oct 10 04:18:21 It'll have a banner on top ;-) oct 10 04:19:25 Susana, bugzilla was rencently updated, I don't think that will be major changes oct 10 04:19:32 but no, I don't think that it'll change dramatically. It might get a new CSS though :-| oct 10 04:19:58 But IIRC there aren't any plans currently. oct 10 04:20:10 what about all the gnome customizations? oct 10 04:20:27 they're not going to be ported? oct 10 04:20:44 Susana: which one? Many are already ported to bugzilla-3 :-) oct 10 04:21:47 hmm ok oct 10 04:21:52 forget that then oct 10 04:22:25 are there any voluntiers? oct 10 04:23:32 that many? oct 10 04:23:34 hehe oct 10 04:23:56 ok i propose that we add that as a goal as hggdh said oct 10 04:23:57 Apparently no ;-) I'd do it if I knew that this linux would work reliably >.< oct 10 04:24:11 A screencast for search bt dupes would be good? oct 10 04:24:24 sure :) oct 10 04:24:27 yes oct 10 04:24:41 oh yes oct 10 04:25:09 I'll try to do one, but I've never done a screencast ;) oct 10 04:25:30 Can you recommend me any tool for that? oct 10 04:25:44 jjardon: istanbul oct 10 04:26:00 * If there is a measurable goal, an IRC bot might be nice, ala "Heya folks, we got 60% already! Keep on going and we're done with this by 17:42" oct 10 04:26:14 guess that's unlikely to be tackled as well oct 10 04:26:47 But I'll ask KDE folks how they manage their bugdays :) IIRC they have plenty of those. oct 10 04:26:48 at least not right now -- we do not know yet what the bot would measure against oct 10 04:27:26 I'd imagine some defined buglist. And then the open bugcount. Or the bug which have not been touch in more than 24hrs... oct 10 04:27:41 s/bug/bugs/ oct 10 04:27:53 brb oct 10 04:28:28 so yeah, if nobody with a ready to use and easily programmable IRC bot turns up, then we'll better spend time doing something else. oct 10 04:28:35 like * Warn developers that there might be more bugmail than usual oct 10 04:29:04 * hggdh se ha marchado (hggdh) oct 10 04:29:33 * hggdh1 (~cerdea@cpe-76-182-224-58.tx.res.rr.com) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 04:30:57 I'll keep that for next meeting oct 10 04:31:04 * get as many bug triagers together as possible oct 10 04:31:17 dunno how that should work. Maybe tell them early and often. oct 10 04:31:32 we send an email to the list oct 10 04:31:53 and ask people to put their availability on a table oct 10 04:32:20 * hggdh1 se ha marchado (Leaving.) oct 10 04:32:24 like this http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugDays oct 10 04:33:15 * Send mail to gnome-love and blog about it oct 10 04:33:29 prolly be the best when we have a date fixed oct 10 04:33:40 same for * Post at http://gnomesupport.org/forums/ (are there other platforms?) oct 10 04:33:46 awesome. oct 10 04:33:49 good night.. :D oct 10 04:34:18 apparently, we need to write a summary, send that out, upload the log, follow up on todos, etc... :-\ oct 10 04:34:53 I can can upload the logs, and move the remaining agenda for the next meeting oct 10 04:34:59 yeah those items are the last to do oct 10 04:35:49 do you have a summary on gobby? oct 10 04:36:13 i didn't connect, i don't have gobby here and cannot install it oct 10 04:36:39 yep oct 10 04:36:44 uploading it to the wiki atm oct 10 04:36:50 fixing syntax errors oct 10 04:37:20 great oct 10 04:37:29 i really have to go now oct 10 04:37:51 good night all oct 10 04:38:21 k Susana. Have a good night :-) oct 10 04:38:26 Sleep well oct 10 04:39:08 bye Susana oct 10 04:39:14 * hggdh (~cerdea@cpe-76-182-224-58.tx.res.rr.com) ha entrado en #bugs oct 10 04:40:51 k. gobby notes are in the wiki oct 10 04:41:03 muelli, great :) oct 10 04:41:13 thank you, muelli oct 10 04:41:51 so. that needs to be sanitized. Like typos and content. So please correct anything that's slightly wrong... oct 10 04:42:07 Then it needs to be wrapped up and send to the mailinglist... oct 10 04:42:39 hggdh: do you still have some beer left? Then you could wrap it up and send it while finishing up your beer ;-) oct 10 04:43:03 nah, out of beer, but still have wine and pop-corn oct 10 04:43:19 but will do. It is still early here, oct 10 04:44:42 any of you mind giving me the link to the wiki? Just rebooted, and lost the history oct 10 04:45:45 bye all oct 10 04:46:08 hggdh, http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/Meetings/20091009 oct 10 04:46:11 mruiz, bye oct 10 04:46:26 jjardon: thank you oct 10 04:46:57 alright. it's 03:46 in here :-\ I really have to get some sleep :-| oct 10 04:47:10 yeah 4:47 here ;) oct 10 04:47:12 Also, my wireless stack decided to burn the CPU an hour ago or so.. >.< oct 10 04:47:36 so, thank you guys for pushing bugsquad forward again :-) oct 10 04:47:46 :) next meeting? oct 10 04:47:58 Was a pleasure to chat and work with you :) oct 10 04:48:00 Oh yes oct 10 04:48:04 next meeting. crap. oct 10 04:48:16 :-) oct 10 04:48:18 Does anybody feel utterly responsible for creating a doodle, etc.? oct 10 04:48:28 I'd say around 3 or 4 weeks oct 10 04:48:39 I will do it oct 10 04:48:40 probably 3 to have the bugday in mid-december oct 10 04:48:46 hggdh: sweet! oct 10 04:48:59 beginning of december... oct 10 04:49:00 will sanitise the wiki & send out the email, plust the doodl oct 10 04:49:04 k oct 10 04:49:10 hggdh, thank you oct 10 04:49:15 welcome oct 10 04:49:25 then I hereby declare the meeting to be finished ;-) please stop recording the session now..