Sep 27 21:47:20 * moyogo has changed the topic to: Fonts discussion forum; Discussion logs at http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fFonts_2fConfiguration | Text layout summit preparation discussion at 2100 UTC here
Sep 27 21:47:26 * otaylor (n=otaylor@static-71-243-117-136.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 21:48:03 behdad hi otaylor
Sep 27 21:48:22 otaylor Hey behdad
Sep 27 21:48:40 * behdad grab some tea
Sep 27 21:50:02 glasseyes moyogo: thanks
Sep 27 21:50:52 moyogo arg... only simosx can add other people to the access list
Sep 27 21:52:39 * hdu_hh (n=chatzill@e176065162.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 21:54:21 behdad where is simosx btw?
Sep 27 21:56:35 behdad otaylor: so, am I wrong assuming that you'll be hacking on Pango during the summit? :-D
Sep 27 21:57:05 otaylor behdad: I'm not sure about Pango *hacking* - I'll definitely be around, but I'm so far out of it, that I'm not sure that I should be allowed near the code :-)
Sep 27 21:57:23 behdad otaylor: will get your hands dirty :)
Sep 27 21:59:37 * maiku (n=mike@p5493D5E2.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 21:59:47 * maiku has quit (Remote closed the connection)
Sep 27 22:00:02 glasseyes welcome everyone
Sep 27 22:00:13 * maiku (n=mike@p5493D5E2.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 22:01:45 glasseyes I proposed this IRC meeting so that we could discuss anything we need to deal with before we meet
Sep 27 22:02:15 glasseyes let's start by introducing ourselves
Sep 27 22:02:50 glasseyes Daniel Glassey : linux porter for graphite
Sep 27 22:03:16 * eimai dejavu fonts developer
Sep 27 22:03:17 maiku Mike Fabian : working at Novell/SuSE on internationalization
Sep 27 22:03:24 * eimai Ben Laenen
Sep 27 22:03:32 moyogo Denis Moyogo Jacquerye : DejaVu fonts, me too
Sep 27 22:03:46 hdu_hh Herbert Duerr: OOo GSL (OpenOffice.org graphic system layer), WINxx port and text technology
Sep 27 22:04:11 behdad Pango and Cairo hacker, i18n junky.
Sep 27 22:04:34 avox Andreas Vox: Scribus developer, working on Scribus's new layout system
Sep 27 22:04:38 pjrm Peter Moulder, not attending the summit. Working on text layout; in particular, working with avox on things needed for optimal line breaking and how it interacts with shaping.
Sep 27 22:04:40 * fantasai (i=fantasai@66.90.106.55) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 22:04:42 avox err, *text* layout system
Sep 27 22:04:45 behdad "Behdad Esfahbod"
Sep 27 22:04:57 otaylor otaylor: Owen Taylor past pango, gtk+ maintainer
Sep 27 22:06:01 behdad yosch: ping
Sep 27 22:06:26 * edtrager (n=edtrager@adsl-75-46-145-8.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 22:06:42 glasseyes hi edtrager, please introduce yourself Ed :)
Sep 27 22:07:29 edtrager Hi, everyone, I made it through traffic and got home ...
Sep 27 22:07:36 mrdocs Peter Linnell, Scribus possibly coming to Boston..
Sep 27 22:08:00 glasseyes the page with proposed topics is on http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/TextLayout
Sep 27 22:08:07 edtrager Ed Trager: unifont.org, going to Boston
Sep 27 22:09:09 fantasai Elika J. Etemad aka fantasai, Mozillan, W3C Invited Expert (CSS Working Group)
Sep 27 22:09:21 behdad hi fantasai
Sep 27 22:09:21 fantasai can't make it to Boston due to a conflicting CSSWG face-to-face
Sep 27 22:09:30 glasseyes welcome fantasai :)
Sep 27 22:09:37 otaylor And, judging, from your web pages, the owner of one of the coolest book collections ever :-)
Sep 27 22:09:52 otaylor [ for script junkies, anyways ]
Sep 27 22:09:56 fantasai haha, no those are mostly from the library :)
Sep 27 22:10:07 fantasai and a few from Martin Heijdra's personal collection
Sep 27 22:10:11 otaylor fantasai: Well, you have access to some nice libraries, then
Sep 27 22:10:26 fantasai yeah, Princeton University's got a good system :P
Sep 27 22:10:40 glasseyes there are 3 areas I think we can discuss in:
Sep 27 22:10:42 * chahibi (n=chahibi@adsl196-167-128-206-196.adsl196-5.iam.net.ma) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 22:10:54 fantasai Access to the East Asian library is free, too
Sep 27 22:11:19 glasseyes clarification of the proposed topics, and discussion on how to plan how to organise them
Sep 27 22:11:29 glasseyes practical details
Sep 27 22:11:48 edtrager Hi, Elika, glad you could join
Sep 27 22:11:48 glasseyes and input from the people who won't be there on what we should do
Sep 27 22:12:26 fantasai I would love to listen in to the presentations, if that's possible
Sep 27 22:12:44 fantasai and if I can get an audio feed, I can take minutes
Sep 27 22:12:56 behdad cool
Sep 27 22:13:02 pjrm that would be great.
Sep 27 22:13:04 pjrm For the ~dozen ppl not coming, it would be good if people's presentations could be made available on the web. Possibly even in advance of the conference.
Sep 27 22:13:15 behdad keithp says he can do that if he gets a non-blocked-enough ip there
Sep 27 22:13:15 edtrager Keith said it is easy to do if he can get an unfiltered IP address at MIT
Sep 27 22:13:24 glasseyes cool, we definitely plan to have an audio feed
Sep 27 22:14:02 fantasai what are the hours for the presentations?
Sep 27 22:14:24 fantasai 9am - 5pm or something?
Sep 27 22:14:39 glasseyes do we have details on what we'll have in the room(or rooms) e.g projector, whiteboard?
Sep 27 22:14:50 behdad fantasai: yeah, that was my idea
Sep 27 22:14:53 otaylor fantasai: I'd guess 10:30-4:30 or so, judging from past years
Sep 27 22:15:37 fantasai hmm, looks like that needs a bit of discussion then :)
Sep 27 22:15:47 pjrm what timezone (/usr/share/zoneinfo/America file) is Boston?
Sep 27 22:15:53 fantasai EST
Sep 27 22:16:02 fantasai or Eastern
Sep 27 22:16:08 * fantasai isn't sure what the file is called
Sep 27 22:16:08 edtrager I suppose it is possible to both stream and record the audio at the same time, so the audio could be later posted on the web for latecomers or future reference?
Sep 27 22:16:12 otaylor glasseyes: There will definitely be whiteboard, I'm not so sure about projectors, but I seem to recall that the rooms actually had them built in
Sep 27 22:16:28 glasseyes otaylor: thanks
Sep 27 22:16:39 otaylor fantasai: I've just never seen people show up as early as 9 :-)
Sep 27 22:16:51 fantasai heh
Sep 27 22:17:13 behdad 9 is wake up time :)
Sep 27 22:17:27 fantasai so schedule for 10am, start at 10:30?
Sep 27 22:17:34 fantasai :)
Sep 27 22:17:53 edtrager Or schedule for 9:30, start at 10?
Sep 27 22:17:53 behdad lets start stuffing topics into slots then adjust the slots
Sep 27 22:17:57 otaylor edtrager: we can try. Audio rceording should be considerably easier than streaming, but anything is definitely going to be best-effort
Sep 27 22:18:32 fantasai I'd prioritize recording over streaming
Sep 27 22:18:39 fantasai not that both wouldn't be cool
Sep 27 22:18:46 behdad so, Simon is arriving Saturday night. others seem to be around for both days.
Sep 27 22:19:02 fantasai Someone should take a bell, and hit it with a fork every time the slide changes :)
Sep 27 22:19:35 fantasai "When you hear this sound *ding*, turn the page!"
Sep 27 22:19:44 behdad is there anything someone wants to add to the agenda, or anything listed that needs to be removed/discussed?
Sep 27 22:20:04 glasseyes I've asked Simon which bits topics he would be least interested in so we could do those on Sat (and he sends his regrets for not being here now)
Sep 27 22:20:10 edtrager Hey, fantasai, that's a great idea!
Sep 27 22:20:11 behdad fantasai: there may not be enough slides to be confusing ;)
Sep 27 22:20:12 * avox wonders what to do if presenters jump a page back...
Sep 27 22:20:31 edtrager Use a different "ding" sound for that?
Sep 27 22:20:46 behdad fantasai: learned today, the best way to keep in sync is to let someone else handle slide navigation. the speak then says "next slide please"
Sep 27 22:21:03 behdad s/speak/speaker/
Sep 27 22:21:26 glasseyes another thing with audio only - it would be good to be able to identify who is speaking
Sep 27 22:21:29 fantasai that works too
Sep 27 22:22:14 pjrm A bit harder for the speaker to search back to a particular slide (during a question) when someone else is operating the next/prev.
Sep 27 22:22:23 edtrager I suppose the web page could identify current speaker while streaming, if you have that level of sophistication
Sep 27 22:22:43 fantasai people should introduce themselves when the get up to speak anyway
Sep 27 22:22:49 pjrm 10:00 to 4:30 Boston (Atikokan,...) time is 15:00-21:30 UTC, btw.
Sep 27 22:22:53 otaylor glasseyes: The list of topics looks pretty extensive, though I'm wondering if it would make sense to go in with a more focused set of goals, so we don't just all come in, say our piece, say "we should work together" and go back home
Sep 27 22:23:00 fantasai or if someone else is introducing them, make sure to record that
Sep 27 22:23:22 glasseyes otaylor: that sounds like a good idea
Sep 27 22:24:28 * zwnj (n=zwnj@213.207.218.157) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 22:24:46 * behdad is reorganizing the list of ideas
Sep 27 22:24:56 edtrager On the list of topics, I've committed to a presentation called "Intern. Text Layout & Typography: The Big and Future Picture" which I would suggest occur early on on the first day (maybe even first?) so as to set the stage and have everyone on the same page.
Sep 27 22:25:25 glasseyes fantasai: I expect it won't just be presentations - I would hope it'll be half presentation, half discussion during the presentation sessions
Sep 27 22:25:38 behdad edtrager: that was my idea too. kinda keynote
Sep 27 22:25:47 glasseyes and have some purely discussion sessions as well
Sep 27 22:25:51 otaylor glasseyes: It might be good to make the first item of discussion a fairly open discussion of "top issues that need fixing for text layout on oss" so we can keep that in mind through the rest of the weekend
Sep 27 22:25:55 fantasai glasseyes: make everyone say their name before talking
Sep 27 22:26:01 behdad glasseyes: yeah, we can allocate an hour, let presentatoins be as short as 20 mins
Sep 27 22:27:05 * yosch is catching after a network timeout
Sep 27 22:27:10 yosch hi everyone
Sep 27 22:27:21 edtrager I am planning to send my presentation out to a "peer review group" ahead of time to see what I'm missing. Hopefully that way I will be able to hit on all the major areas as an introductory, key-note sort of thing. What does everyone think?
Sep 27 22:27:40 * yosch is Nicolas Spalinger, SIL volunteer, OFL and Ubuntu fonts team
Sep 27 22:27:46 moyogo edtrager: good idea
Sep 27 22:27:48 edtrager People can suggest themselves or others if they want to do the "peer review" of the paper.
Sep 27 22:28:05 glasseyes eimai, moyogo: what would your aims/goals of being there be from the fonts perpective?
Sep 27 22:29:48 edtrager I also agree heartily with pjrm that everyone else who is going to prepare a presentation be able to post it a day or two ahead of time for everyone to read in advance. That will make the discussions more informed, productive.
Sep 27 22:30:04 eimai we would certainly do a talk about dejavu of course
Sep 27 22:30:10 glasseyes edtrager: I think you should send it to everyone that will be there plus other interested folks
Sep 27 22:30:11 behdad ok, I grouped the items based on the session type: http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/TextLayout
Sep 27 22:30:26 eimai but we are there as the font developers
Sep 27 22:30:43 edtrager pjrm: Who are you anyway? I probably joined late and missed your introduction
Sep 27 22:31:12 zwnj hi everyone
Sep 27 22:31:34 behdad hi zwnj. introduce yourself :)
Sep 27 22:31:59 moyogo glasseyes: and advanced opentype features
Sep 27 22:32:28 glasseyes behdad: I get some 'edit conflicts' looking at the page now
Sep 27 22:32:46 zwnj i'm a developer of farsifonts package
Sep 27 22:32:50 behdad ah
Sep 27 22:33:16 behdad zwnj is Behnam Esfahbod, FarsiWeb.
Sep 27 22:33:19 otaylor glasseyes: I'll clean that up, my mess
Sep 27 22:33:22 * fantasai notes that there are a lot of Iranians here today :)
Sep 27 22:33:34 pjrm edtrager: see the logs for an introduction to me and others you missed. Err, except i've just looked at http://wiki.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fFonts_2fConfiguration and can't actually see the logs (after a quick scan).
Sep 27 22:33:48 glasseyes :)
Sep 27 22:34:06 edtrager behdad: Are you and zwnj twin brothers :-)
Sep 27 22:34:11 behdad fantasai: lets remove Latin from DejaVu fonts :-D
Sep 27 22:34:16 behdad edtrager: not twin.
Sep 27 22:34:56 moyogo behdad: :D
Sep 27 22:35:00 edtrager behdad: cool!
Sep 27 22:35:21 eimai behdad: I think you're patch won't be applied ;-)
Sep 27 22:35:25 yosch edtrager: logs of previous IRC meetings are in separate archives pages
Sep 27 22:35:39 behdad Behnam's in Iran though. And yes, you really don't want the two of us commenting in the same bug!
Sep 27 22:35:52 glasseyes eimai, moyogo: actually, you could you talk to keithp about how to get DejaVu back as the preferred font above Vera in upstream fontconfig ;)
Sep 27 22:35:53 behdad eimai: no prob. I'll rip them in Fedora ;)
Sep 27 22:36:20 behdad glasseyes: why is that important?
Sep 27 22:36:21 chahibi zwnj: it would be nice to rework Arabeyes font to support Persian and also hack its height
Sep 27 22:36:33 otaylor Anyways, I'd suggest that we volunteer someone to organize the schedule and then just adjust as necesary at the start
Sep 27 22:36:35 behdad glasseyes: we fix it in our dejavu-lgc-fonts package
Sep 27 22:36:44 chahibi zwnj: But I guess you think the height for Farsiweb fonts is normal
Sep 27 22:36:47 otaylor glasseyes: Do you want to do that?
Sep 27 22:37:01 eimai glasseyes: yeah, I suppose discussions like that will take place in the dejavu talk
Sep 27 22:37:11 zwnj chahibi: yes, that's in todo list already
Sep 27 22:37:15 behdad otaylor, glasseyes: I can do.
Sep 27 22:37:20 chahibi zwnj: Thanks :)
Sep 27 22:37:24 zwnj chahibi: no, some of them do have problems
Sep 27 22:37:29 behdad chahibi: the height for FarsiWeb fonts is broken, and Arabeyes fonts are ugly :)
Sep 27 22:37:43 glasseyes I'll need to talk to the Debian font/dejavu maintainers to see what they want (keithp is fontconfig maintainer so we can't change default)
Sep 27 22:37:46 * otaylor hopes that discussions of font organization split-vs-mega will be kept strictly time limited. Maybe we need a cage :-)
Sep 27 22:37:59 behdad hah
Sep 27 22:38:08 moyogo yeah that issue could take forever
Sep 27 22:38:11 eimai glasseyes: but everyone interested in dejavu future can join the dejavu meeting on #dejavu tomorrow at 18:00 UTC :-p
Sep 27 22:38:13 behdad otaylor: there's a dejavu IRC meeting tomorrow discussing that
Sep 27 22:38:20 glasseyes eimai: good point ;)
Sep 27 22:38:24 chahibi behdad: Most fonts in Arabeyes may be considered as Artistic, fantasy fonts. I don't think they can fit well in a GUI or in a website text
Sep 27 22:38:43 behdad actually it past my mind that: dejavu can ship separate font files, all having the same family name.
Sep 27 22:38:54 behdad no reason to name the lgc variant "DejaVu LGC".
Sep 27 22:39:00 chahibi behdad: May be except KacstOne but this one is different from Modern Persian typography
Sep 27 22:39:00 behdad and fontconfig uses all available ones.
Sep 27 22:39:01 otaylor OK, good that it will get discussed in advance.
Sep 27 22:39:15 behdad chahibi: true.
Sep 27 22:39:20 glasseyes I'll chase up Simon as we need input from him on what he wants to talk about from the Qt side
Sep 27 22:40:33 behdad otaylor: very good point about testing.
Sep 27 22:40:37 otaylor One thing I'd suggest to everybody to think about in advance is concrete achievable things that you'd hope to come out of the summit with.
Sep 27 22:40:46 edtrager I recently discovered http://www.ukij.org/fonts/ . Uyghur Computer Science Association. Some of the fonts appear very good. Freely available, license not really specified. I think all the Arabists should take a look and see what they think
Sep 27 22:41:05 chahibi behdad: Roya and Nazli are wonderful but they look very small behind latin characters. DejaVu doens't have this problem
Sep 27 22:41:11 otaylor behdad: I have to say that every time I see a change going into the Indic classificiation tables, I wonder "ok, that fixes one string. What strings is it breaking?" :-)
Sep 27 22:41:58 * Pretor1ab has quit ("10-4")Sep 27 22:42:06 behdad otaylor: yeah, lemme add another item. synching the indic shaper with ICU. unfortunately I was under pressure to either commit LingNing's patches or go figure out the proper fix....
Sep 27 22:42:11 glasseyes do we have a mailing list for discussing preparation and the general area that we can point people to?
Sep 27 22:42:14 moyogo a lot of size issues could be fixed with proper BASE table stuff
Sep 27 22:42:18 behdad otaylor: there's already one case that we did it wrong.
Sep 27 22:42:42 behdad regardless, FarsiWeb fonts have too large font metrics
Sep 27 22:42:52 behdad I suggest everybody subscribe to the wiki page for now
Sep 27 22:42:57 otaylor glasseyes: The general GNOME summit preparation is mostly done on the wiki
Sep 27 22:43:10 edtrager What if Fontconfig library could specify incremental or decremental size change "hints" for scaling fonts like Nazli and Roya to mesh with Latin defaults like Deja Vu Sans and Serif?
Sep 27 22:43:11 otaylor There should be directions, etc, there. Was that what you were asking?
Sep 27 22:43:13 behdad for anything else we can use fontconfig list I suppose
Sep 27 22:43:19 glasseyes otaylor: ok, thanks
Sep 27 22:43:42 otaylor edtrager: I have some ideas floating around about per-script size adjustments, that maybe you could override on a per-font basis
Sep 27 22:44:38 moyogo otaylor: would that work with BASE table?
Sep 27 22:44:48 edtrager For the Summit, I'm *very* interested in how Graphite is going to fit into the picture. Graphite seems to have many cool features, I haven't really had time to digest it all. Is Daniel presenting on it?
Sep 27 22:45:47 otaylor moyogo: well, you'd assume that all scripts in a single font are sized as they would need to be sized when mixing text
Sep 27 22:45:47 behdad a concrete goal of mine is to add BASE support to HarfBuzz/Pango in the summit :)
Sep 27 22:46:40 chahibi behdad, zwnj: A Malaysian guy did this http://perso.menara.ma/yollnet/tmp/fonts/index.html ( http://perso.menara.ma/yollnet/tmp/fonts/mry_KacstQurn.ttf )
Sep 27 22:46:57 otaylor moyogo: So it's somewhat different issue from mixing different fonts.
Sep 27 22:47:18 chahibi behdad, zwnj: the Arabic script characters and latin height are equal, but it has some problems with some fonts
Sep 27 22:47:41 behdad anyway, seems like time to wrap up :)
Sep 27 22:47:47 otaylor moyogo: (Note this means that the Arabic portion of a 12pt multiscript font will be significantly different from a 12pt Arabic font.)
Sep 27 22:48:09 otaylor behdad: Yeah, we seem to be discussing stuf fohter htan summit prep
Sep 27 22:48:16 moyogo otaylor: in theory, a BASE table can define MinMax for scripts from other fonts too, but that might be undesirable
Sep 27 22:48:17 chahibi behdad, zwnj: when I wanted to make an Arabic language tutor, this font was the only GPL font that supported diacritic marks and had a reasonnable height
Sep 27 22:48:39 glasseyes yes, I'll present on it, the current state of integration and the things I've been told that graphite can do that are next generation stuff
Sep 27 22:48:49 zwnj chahibi: looks very good on screen
Sep 27 22:49:25 chahibi zwnj: It also has Bitmaps to make readable in 12
Sep 27 22:49:28 pjrm When people are making their (draft) presentations available on web in advance, where are they going to go? As links from http://live.gnome.org/Boston2006/TextLayout ?
Sep 27 22:49:30 * avox is interested in a common FOSS shaper
Sep 27 22:49:33 edtrager otaylor: I like the idea of fontconfig possibly being able to fix up (or at least suggest fix-ups) when fonts have good glyphs but maybe imperfect metrics ...
Sep 27 22:49:44 zwnj chahibi: yes, saw that
Sep 27 22:51:35 otaylor pjrm: Links sounds best. Or you can attach to the page if you don't have a good place to put them
Sep 27 22:52:02 glasseyes could people take ownership of all the items - to chair the discussions, or to present
Sep 27 22:52:25 glasseyes if we don't have anyone to do them we can't really do them ;)
Sep 27 22:54:27 glasseyes is everyone here and involved happy to subscribe to the fontconfig mailing list? any objections to using it?
Sep 27 22:55:26 eimai glasseyes: why not fonts@gnome.org ?
Sep 27 22:56:03 glasseyes eimai: I'd prefer somewhere that is desktop agnostic
Sep 27 22:56:27 pjrm If we do in fact get a live audio feed, then it may be useful if there's a way for non-attendees to talk back (ask questions), e.g. if there's VoIP available, or a telephone in the room.
Sep 27 22:56:43 glasseyes afaiu this is a cross desktop thing even though it is at the gnome summit
Sep 27 22:57:26 glasseyes pjrm: as long as we have network there will be irc, but voip would be useful
Sep 27 22:57:26 eimai it doesn't really matter to me, but I thought it would be good to use that mailing list once :-p
Sep 27 22:57:38 glasseyes eimai: agreed
Sep 27 22:58:24 pjrm glasseyes: will there be a live speech-to-text transcription on irc :) ?
Sep 27 22:58:53 pjrm In any case, updating the web page once we know whether live audio feed is likely to be available would be useful, so that non-attendees know in advance whether to make that time available and organize voip stuff.
Sep 27 22:59:01 avox pjrm: well, you have IRC and the audiostream...
Sep 27 22:59:19 edtrager glasseyes: Good. I'd really like to see how Graphite, Pango, and QT layout engines compare on technical merits. What are the strengths of each? What are the weaknesses? On first look, Graphite looks like it has some powerful stuff in there, and both Pango and QT are looking at Graphite integration, right? Graphite may not be as familiar to some as Pango or QT, so I'd kinda like to see a Graphite presentation early on on
Sep 27 22:59:19 edtrager day 1.
Sep 27 22:59:59 * yosch is looking at the remaining sessions with no presenters
Sep 27 23:00:21 hdu_hh not to forget ICU's layout engine...
Sep 27 23:00:33 yosch edtrager: would you do the OFL campaign bit? Can't be there but I'll help prepare some more material
Sep 27 23:00:55 edtrager yosch: Yes, certainly.
Sep 27 23:01:07 glasseyes do we know if anyone from ICU can or can't make it (I think Eric Mader was asked)?
Sep 27 23:01:18 edtrager yosch: just put my name on it.
Sep 27 23:01:40 avox edtrager: I don't think the merits in intl' shaping will finally decide if aa layout engine is used or not...
Sep 27 23:02:23 avox from an app developer's POV it's more important how convenient the API is
Sep 27 23:02:24 yosch edtrager: excellent, I'm updating the wiki now
Sep 27 23:02:56 otaylor avox: I think it's pretty clear that any commonality will be well below the level of an app developers view
Sep 27 23:03:31 otaylor avox: I can't see either GTK+ or Pango presenting an API change to their users, especially to something low-level-C
Sep 27 23:03:39 avox well, *most* app developers :-)
Sep 27 23:03:54 edtrager avox: I know, but since Pango already has Graphite integration (partial, not all Graphite features supported) and Since Daniel told me that QT guys at Akademy are interested in Graphite integration, it looks like Graphite may become an important element in the existing, and future, infrastructure.
Sep 27 23:04:14 glasseyes I know that the debian i18n meeting a few weeks ago was videod pretty easily - it wasn't streamed but the files were available pretty quickly - would we be able to find a camcorder and tripod from someone that'll be there?
Sep 27 23:04:16 avox maybe
Sep 27 23:04:27 otaylor avox: Speed, robustness, i18n support, advanced typographic support, ability to fit easily into existing high-level apis, etc.
Sep 27 23:04:33 avox OTOH OTF is more commonly known and there are more OT fonts arounf
Sep 27 23:05:20 glasseyes avox: graphite is mostly for situations where otf is insuffient, but I'll get to that in the presentation ;)
Sep 27 23:06:28 yosch avox: and fonts can be both OT and Graphite (some SIL fonts have AAT as well)
Sep 27 23:06:36 * avox knows
Sep 27 23:06:59 avox layout engines should support both
Sep 27 23:07:18 otaylor The hardest part of graphite integration seems to be deciding whether to use the graphite tables or OT tables from a mixed font :-)
Sep 27 23:08:44 edtrager avox, otaylor: And I think Graphite could become very important for certain scripts like Myanmar and Lanna and Khmer where maybe OT is not quite good enough. Or maybe OT is good enough, but the flexibility of Graphite is very appealing, so maybe its better to do it with Graphite. Plus let's not forget that Graphite is an Open Source technology, whereas somebody else not in the FLOSS community is and will continue to call t
Sep 27 23:08:44 edtrager he shots on OT and AAT technologies.
Sep 27 23:09:59 otaylor edtrager: Well, there is only so far that you can swim upstream against what people are making for fonts. I can't really see using anything but OT for major scripts. But yes, sure, the more fonts that can be supported, the more scripts that can be supported, the better :-)
Sep 27 23:11:57 avox what licence does Graphite have?
Sep 27 23:12:48 yosch avox: LGPL (and CPL)
Sep 27 23:14:26 * fission (n=fission@pdpc/supporter/active/fission) has left ##fonts
Sep 27 23:14:51 edtrager Also I think Graphite -- maybe I'm wrong here -- but the SIL people do think about issues in a whole bunch of scripts and the Graphite manual says it supports all features needed for all known human scripts. So just understanding the breadth and depth of such a feature set can give everyone perspective on future development avenues. People can say, oh, Graphite supports that ? Hmm., we can do that pretty easily in Pango o
Sep 27 23:14:52 edtrager r QT to, but don't yet. So I'm curious what Graphite's feature set is when it claims to be able to support "all known human scripts" (not exact quote .. my paraphrase)
Sep 27 23:17:07 glasseyes yes, that is the kind of thing I'm hoping to present
Sep 27 23:17:32 glasseyes I'm not sure if I should do that on Sat (early) or on Sun when Simon, the Qt guy, gets there
Sep 27 23:18:49 glasseyes everyone, if you have comments on any of the topics please add to the wiki page, and subscribe to it or keep an eye on it
Sep 27 23:19:11 yosch looking at the remaining session ideas again: any of the Dejavu team members want to give an overview of the current state of free design tools and what may need improving?
Sep 27 23:19:12 edtrager glasseyes: Great! Originally I thought early Saturday would be best for the Graphite presentation, but you are right, having QT there would be good.
Sep 27 23:20:21 mrdocs one thing which is not listed, but I think relevant is font testing.. will they print with commercial printing gear..
Sep 27 23:21:18 edtrager yosch: The "Architecting a unified text layout engine for FLOSS systems" topic for me is most likely going to be part and parcel of my "International Text Layout & Typography : The Big And Future Picture" presentation.
Sep 27 23:21:34 mrdocs AFAIK there is no common testing framework for open fonts, but some standardized tests could be done with existing tools
Sep 27 23:22:01 glasseyes otaylor: would printing be part of "How to test layout engines"?
Sep 27 23:22:36 avox edtrager; I would be interested to perr review your talk
Sep 27 23:22:37 edtrager yosch: But I will also prepare some stuff on the "Next generation font dialog" subject as well, mostly as an update to what I've already got on unifont.org/fontdialog
Sep 27 23:22:47 avox s/perr/peer/
Sep 27 23:23:16 mrdocs IOW "Can I use these fonts without worrying they might blow up on press - potentialy costing thousands of $currency? "
Sep 27 23:23:34 edtrager avox: My pleasure. Do I know your email?
Sep 27 23:23:55 yosch edtrager: yes, it makes sense. I can update the wiki if you want.
Sep 27 23:24:10 avox edtrager; avox@scribus.info
Sep 27 23:24:10 edtrager mrdocs: The idea of a common testing framework is good.
Sep 27 23:24:42 mrdocs The quality of free fonts is highly variable :S
Sep 27 23:24:55 rillian mrdocs: don't know if you've noticed, macosx now runs a font lint and warns you if there's a problem when you install a new font. unfortunately it doesn't give any technical details
Sep 27 23:25:22 mrdocs rillian: I have a 10.4.x upgrade on the todo
Sep 27 23:25:22 rillian (rillian is Ralph Giles, who works on Ghostscript. not coming to the summit)
Sep 27 23:25:26 edtrager yosch: Can you add "common font testing framework" while you are at updating the wiki?
Sep 27 23:25:26 moyogo mrdocs: i think we could benefit from common testing
Sep 27 23:25:34 yosch mrdocs: back at the LGM you mentioned you had some process in place to test, was using Scribus or other tools?
Sep 27 23:25:34 moyogo mrdocs: at least some kind of review system
Sep 27 23:26:10 fantasai hm, there was a lot of discussion recently in the CSSWG about embedding fonts in web pages
Sep 27 23:26:31 fantasai two issues that came up were IPR issues and security
Sep 27 23:26:42 yosch edtrager: otaylor and zwnj also have a test-related item there? Should it be merged?
Sep 27 23:26:43 fantasai just to throw that out there
Sep 27 23:27:28 zwnj yosch: i think you meant behdad, right?
Sep 27 23:28:02 mrdocs edtrager moyogo I'll put down some thoughts in the next few days at http://rants.scribus.net and link it to the wiki
Sep 27 23:28:24 edtrager fantasai: I agree "Embedded Fonts in Web Pages" should be added as a great topic for discussion.
Sep 27 23:28:34 yosch zwnj: yep sorry glanced over the diff too quickly
Sep 27 23:29:23 fantasai edtrager: the CSS2 spec already has syntax for doing that, but the only browser that supports it is IE, and only for .eot format fonts
Sep 27 23:30:02 yosch edtrager: the wider topic should be open fonts on the web (a new set of open core fonts, metadata flagging in browsers, cross-platform behaviours, etc)
Sep 27 23:30:40 yosch fantasai: yes the trouble is all the attempts to do something like this are still proprietary and non-cross platform
Sep 27 23:31:35 behdad yosch: pango test suite, layout testing, and font testing are different problem. of a common theme though
Sep 27 23:31:51 glasseyes fantasai: what is IPR?
Sep 27 23:32:01 fantasai Intellectual Property Rights
Sep 27 23:32:15 edtrager fantasai: I can imagine having FLOSS browsers be able to download required Open Source fonts for web pages on the fly from known URLs. Forget about IE's .eot. What about just having firefox go to a URL and downloading a font file as specified in web page? To get fancy, Firefox could then open the file and check the license ... OFL? OK GPL? OK. License not clear? ==> Popup warning message to user. Anyway, it would be gr
Sep 27 23:32:15 edtrager eat for the FLOSS community.
Sep 27 23:32:22 fantasai font foundries that sell their fonts don't want them to be copied all over the web
Sep 27 23:32:58 fantasai edtrager: yea, we need browsers with downloadable .ttf support or something
Sep 27 23:33:10 yosch yes, I'm thinking that a browser extension telling you if the font called by the css is open or not (flagging the metadata) and allowing the user to act on it is a great way forward
Sep 27 23:33:14 fantasai there are licensing bits in the ttf format
Sep 27 23:33:21 rillian fantasai: aren't they already all over the web in pdf files?
Sep 27 23:33:39 fantasai rillian: yes, but you can't reuse that
Sep 27 23:33:49 glasseyes I've added a quick list of places where text layout is used to the wiki - folks please review and refine
Sep 27 23:33:50 rillian because of subsetting I guess
Sep 27 23:33:54 fantasai rillian: embedding them in web pages means making them available for download
Sep 27 23:34:06 fantasai rillian: that and being embedded in the PDF
Sep 27 23:34:18 * rillian sighs
Sep 27 23:34:28 fantasai rillian: for web pages, embedding means linking, basically :)
Sep 27 23:34:36 fantasai the other issue is security
Sep 27 23:34:41 edtrager fantasai: Yes, so to be on the safe, conservative legal side, browsers like Firefox could just refuse to install "embedded" fonts where the TTF licensing data was not crystal clear.
Sep 27 23:34:54 fantasai because fonts can contain programmed code
Sep 27 23:35:10 fantasai our Microsoft rep says they have a collection of fonts that were designed to crash your system
Sep 27 23:35:17 * mrdocs puts on BOFH hat and does not want any fonts downloaded on my users machines locally
Sep 27 23:35:36 fantasai BOFH?
Sep 27 23:35:55 yosch fantasai: you want the user to actually be able to lookup the website and grab the real font which he can then use on the rest of his system not just the browser. Creating a new format is less than ideal.
Sep 27 23:36:05 rillian fantasai: Bastard (System) Operator From Hell
Sep 27 23:36:27 mrdocs Bastard Operator from Hell, otherwise known as dictatorial sys admins....
Sep 27 23:36:34 pjrm i gather that font distributors generally try to get their customers to enter into a contract (EULA), in addition to any restrictions of copyright (on the font program, not the letterforms afaik), trademark (on the font name), and design patent (rare). Does "tracking IPR" include embedding info about licenses and known legal restrictions?
Sep 27 23:36:34 mrdocs they do exist...
Sep 27 23:36:45 glasseyes ok, I need to get to bed - an early flight back for some more aKademy - has someone else got the whole log and can post it to the wiki? Looks like the discussion is hotting up so I don't want to stop it ;)
Sep 27 23:37:02 glasseyes just one thing, shall we meet again here before Boston?
Sep 27 23:37:13 glasseyes if so lets plan a time/date on the wiki
Sep 27 23:37:23 mrdocs why not same time next week ?
Sep 27 23:38:29 * avox doesn't like apps enforcing IPR ...
Sep 27 23:38:39 edtrager So sounds like the plan is for everyone meanwhile to adjust the wiki as they see fit, adding value to what has already been adjusted during this past hour. I second same time next week.
Sep 27 23:40:45 glasseyes ok, I'll check if Simon can make then, it would be good to discuss stuff with him so I'll propose other times if he can't make the same time next week
Sep 27 23:41:59 hdu_hh edtrager: I have some ideas/comments/requests on the topic of a unified layout engine
Sep 27 23:42:11 hdu_hh Having worked with some layout engines I often miss some features application developers really need: text justification, device independent formating, layout compatible metafile replay capability (especially when the original font is not available)
Sep 27 23:42:25 hdu_hh Will these features be discussed in your talk? Can I assume that there is a consensus that they are a requirement for a unified layout engine?
Sep 27 23:43:21 avox I could probably also add to that... Scribus has some special neds
Sep 27 23:43:24 avox needs
Sep 27 23:43:29 pjrm avox's presentation topic doesn't currently convey the bit that i'm interested in, namely optimal line breaking and hyphenation and justification and how these interact with shapers: the correct glyph string depends on what line breaks are chosen, whereas choosing line breaks requires knowing width information from shapers, preferably including info on how much that width can vary for justification purposes by using glyph substitution or kashida
Sep 27 23:45:11 edtrager hdu_hh: Please write down all of your ideas ... Hmm, thinking fast here: Let's make "Architecting a unified text layout engine for FLOSS systems" an open discussion. I'll volunteer to chair/moderate since my name is next to it already on the wiki. How does that sound? I'm sure many people have good ideas and expertise and can voice their ideas.
Sep 27 23:45:14 avox yes, that's one of those needs.
Sep 27 23:45:34 * yosch has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
Sep 27 23:46:02 avox edtrager: sounds good. so you would hold an introductory talk for the big picture and we would add our views?
Sep 27 23:46:06 * otaylor has quit ("Leaving")Sep 27 23:46:42 glasseyes edtrager: yes, that sounds like a good idea
Sep 27 23:47:03 glasseyes edtrager: I think that will be the most important discussion
Sep 27 23:47:37 avox do we have to include Simon fomr Qt into that?
Sep 27 23:47:54 edtrager avox: Sure, I'll do an introductory talk. The question is when is the best time to then have the "Open Discussion on Architecting a unified text layout engine for FLOSS systems" discussion? Maybe later after we have all heard about vertical Pango and Graphite and Scribus, etc? But not too late, cause we want to have plenty of time to hash it out.
Sep 27 23:47:55 pjrm Could any of that discussion take place on the wiki, so that ppl have more time to consider things?
Sep 27 23:48:22 glasseyes yes, I think so, we could maybe have some preliminary discussion on Sat, but everyone should be there for that
Sep 27 23:49:27 * eimai has quit ("going to bed now")Sep 27 23:49:38 edtrager So maybe Sunday is the day reserved for really hashing it out about the "Unified Text Layout Engine"? Sunday would allow our QT colleague to attend and participate.
Sep 27 23:50:03 * thorsten (i=thb@nat/sun/x-5c24370f69fa994a) has left ##fonts
Sep 27 23:50:56 edtrager I suppose that a big initial part of this "Unified Engine" discussion is first just listing and categorizing all the features that people would love to see available.
Sep 27 23:51:14 glasseyes starting the discussion off on the wiki sounds like a good idea
Sep 27 23:51:19 hdu_hh I won't be there but having the whole day on this essential topic sounds like a good idea
Sep 27 23:51:25 edtrager glasseyes: Yes, agree
Sep 27 23:51:58 pjrm It's a big topic, and there are a number of difficult areas (such as what code to start from). There are bound to be some initial disagreement about some bits. Having things on the wiki allows finding out things in advance (e.g. looking up existing source code) and having time to consider arguments and possible solutions.
Sep 27 23:52:02 avox hdu_hh: I think I missed your introduction?
Sep 27 23:52:54 edtrager hdu_hh: But maybe you will be listening on the audio? Should this meeting also have some kind of IRC thing going on too, so remote people could at least have the theoretical possibility of asking questions or voicing their opinions?
Sep 27 23:53:16 hdu_hh avox: I'm the OOo GSL+text guy
Sep 27 23:53:22 avox ah yes, thanks
Sep 27 23:53:29 hdu_hh edtrager: IRC sounds good
Sep 27 23:53:31 glasseyes ok, edtrager, could you start off a wiki page to start the discussion and link to it from the main wiki page?
Sep 27 23:54:14 * yosch (n=yosch@lns-bzn-24-82-64-128-166.adsl.proxad.net) has joined ##fonts
Sep 27 23:54:20 avox hdu_hh: maybe we could even meet for a cup of tea before Boston :-)
Sep 27 23:54:28 pjrm GSL=http://gsl.openoffice.org/
Sep 27 23:55:00 hdu_hh avox: can't make it to the Boston tea party ;-(
Sep 27 23:55:21 avox I know, what about HH or Lübeck?
Sep 27 23:55:44 yosch hdu_hh: me neither, hopefully there will be another one :-)
Sep 27 23:55:59 hdu_hh avox: yup, I'm a Hamburger and aspire to become a Whopper ;-)
Sep 27 23:56:03 edtrager glasseyes: OK. Hey everyone, I've got to go for awhile. I'll leave my connection open and come back in a little while to see where things are.
Sep 27 23:56:38 yosch edtrager: OK bye
Sep 27 23:58:16 yosch I've updated the wiki a bit
Sep 27 23:58:41 hdu_hh got to go... good night everyone
Sep 27 23:59:06 * hdu_hh (n=chatzill@e176065162.adsl.alicedsl.de) has left ##fonts
Sep 27 23:59:06 avox nite
Sep 28 00:00:05 glasseyes same here, I'll post the log I have and edtrager will add to it if there is any more discussion, g'night and thanks for being here everyone
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Sep 28 00:00:37 2006
* glasseyes has quit ("good night/afternoon/morning")
Below is the remainder of the discussion after glasseyes logged out (posted by edtrager):
yosch anybody interested in issue of fonts on the OLPC platform? AFAIK the OLPC building is just the next building to the summit facilities, sounds like a good opportunity to invite them / see what direction they're going...
{{{rillian yosch: seems like i18n is an even bigger problem for them }}} {{{rillian although they also don't have to support everything right away, they can do localization }}} {{{rillian s/bigger/pressing/ }}} {{{pjrm Are there interesting scripts needed? Anything outside of unicode, by any chance? }}} {{{chahibi yosch: jg is the right person to ask }}} {{{pjrm (may be relevant to graphite, if so) }}} {{{yosch pjrm: with their Nigeria plan, they're going to have a lot of fun with all the languages there 
}}} {{{chahibi yosch: He questioned about what Fedora lack for Arabic support, I told him that the main problem is a fully featured Arabic font }}} {{{yosch chabihi: I talked to jg briefly at GUADEC, just wondered what happened since then. I'll send him a note about the layout summit. }}} {{{pjrm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria#Language says 250 languages spoken in nigeria }}} {{{yosch chahibi: well, at some point Scheherazade and Lateef will problably get OFL-ed: http://scripts.sil.org/ArabicFonts }}} {{{chahibi yosch: Great. I hope the height problem will be solved }}} {{{yosch more according to the Ethnologue: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=NG I guess it will depend how OLPC and the local ministry of education sees things }}} {{{behdad yosch: isn't Wed oct 4? }}} {{{behdad not 3? * behdad has quit ("Leaving.") }}} {{{yosch behdad: ? }}} {{{avox behdad might be gone, but he's right }}} {{{avox }}} {{{yosch avox: yep, after seeing the wiki diff I understand what he's referring to. Will fix the wiki }}} {{{chahibi yosch: have you ever contacted SIL font designers? }}} {{{chahibi yosch: the Arabic fonts look good except the lam alif ligature (لا) }}} {{{yosch chahibi: yes I have good contacts with them }}} {{{moyogo for Nigeria, they should first focus on the official languages }}} {{{chahibi yosch: if you can, please tell them about this problem. * moyogo has quit ("live's short, sleep more") }}} {{{yosch Ok, I can do that but I'm not a Arabic specialist, you should probably be the one describing the problem: feel free to send a note to the designers, contact information is available on the website }}} {{{yosch moyogo: some languages may be unofficial to some, but crucial to others. The OLPC i18n L10n strategy will have to scale to bring culturally appropriate technology to every child. }}} {{{chahibi yosch: Ok, done }}} {{{yosch chahibi: cool }}} {{{chahibi yosch: I remember SIL Arabic fonts don't work well with Openoffice }}} {{{yosch chahibi: is it the RTL features of OOo that need some work? }}} {{{chahibi yosch: to be more specific, Diacritic marks in Arabic shaping }}} {{{chahibi yosch: Some fonts work well, others don't, the diacritic marks are not displayed on the letter but after the letter breaking the word }}} {{{edtrager I find OpenOffice has some issues with diacritic marks in other scripts too. The bug I've seen for Thai is that you can type a diacritical mark like a vowel or tone mark and it doesn't appear. But if you minimize/restore in order to force a repaint, it then is there. I think it is a line height problem especially in mixed text documents. But this is different than the Arabic diacritical marks problem }}} {{{avox is OOo using their own shaper? }}} {{{zwnj yosch: which feature SIL fonts use for positioning? GPOS or the old TT table? }}} {{{yosch AFAIK there are plans for beefing up the OOo rendering CTL engine with hopefully things like font features and split cursors at some point (heard at the OOoCon 2006) }}} {{{yosch zwnj: which ones? }}} {{{yosch some fonts have OT as well }}} {{{zwnj yosch: Arabic ones, Shahrzad and Lateef }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: with some fonts, at least on Linux, "كَتَبَ" is displayed as " ك َت َ بَ " }}} {{{mrdocs chahibi: which ones work correctly ? }}} {{{zwnj chahibi: mozilla has same problem in the native (non-pango) engine }}} {{{chahibi mrdocs: Free fonts: Farsiweb fonts and http://perso.menara.ma/yollnet/tmp/fonts/mry_KacstQurn.ttf (http://perso.menara.ma/yollnet/tmp/fonts/index.html) }}} {{{zwnj chahibi: we don't have any problem with oo.o using farsi-fonts }}} {{{chahibi zwnj: Farsiweb fonts and http://perso.menara.ma/yollnet/tmp/fonts/mry_KacstQurn.ttf are those I know don't have problem with openoffice }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Yes, that's pretty bad. More the reason I say for a unified layout engine. The hard thing for inexperienced users is that it makes no sense. For example, a font might work OK for browsing the web w/ Firefox, but then doesn't work in OOo. * ccxvii has quit () }}} {{{chahibi mrdocs: most of those http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=Khotot don't work }}} {{{mrdocs chahibi: good to know }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: Yes, DejaVu Sans and Nazli work Ok on Firefox without Pango, MS fonts don't }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: I remember too that ArabEyes.org fonts dont' work especially when trying to add diacritics in OOo }}} {{{mrdocs chahibi: is it the fonts, freetype or the layout engine ? }}} {{{chahibi mrdocs: No idea }}} {{{yosch zwnj: AFAIK the OT GPOS (along with AAT for OSX) but I guess you should check with an fc-match -v }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: Yes, same problem in KOffice. But not in Gimp for example/ }}} {{{avox would be interesting to know which app uses which shaper (pango, harfbuzz, Qt, ICU, ...?) }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Right, Koffice uses QT engine which, in my experience, seems to have a lot of issues with Arabic. Gimp uses Pango which works pretty well. OOo uses IBM's ICU text layout written by Eric Mader. }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: OpenOffice Arabic PDF export is really bad }}} {{{mrdocs chahibi: which viewer ? }}} {{{chahibi mrdocs: Kpdf and Acrobat Reader }}} {{{edtrager avox: See http://unifont.org/iuc27/ a presentation I gave in 2005. A little out of date by now, but start around slide 22 I think : http://unifont.org/iuc27/html/img22.html }}} {{{mrdocs Ok then... }}} {{{avox edtrager: tnx }}} {{{mrdocs our experience with PDF viewer is: 1. Adobe reader 2. gsview + GS 8.54 3. kpdf 4. other xpdf based readers }}} {{{edtrager My experience with OOo PDF export is that it is crucial to double-check whether your text is really set to the font that you think it is. Sometimes you'll be typing along in English using a Latin font like Vera, then you switch to Arabic and OOo is still showing "Vera" as the font, but it's really whatever Fontconfig hands it (I guess), so then you go to export PDF and its all wrong. Doesn't matter which viewer. But if yo }}} {{{edtrager u go back and highlight and specify a good (Arabic or whatever non-Latin) font manually, it works (for me, at least) }}} {{{chahibi it is all messy in Arabic }}} {{{chahibi The PDF quality is also bad }}} {{{edtrager However, my experience is limited mostly to just small snippets of Arabic mixed in English. I've only studied a little bit of Arabic, so I can't do much more than that. }}} {{{chahibi gtg }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Bye }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: There is a typo in Arabic here : http://unifont.org/iuc27/html/img47.html }}} {{{chahibi اللغة العربية }}} {{{chahibi not }}} {{{chahibi اللفة العربية }}} {{{mrdocs zz time }}} {{{mrdocs nite all }}} {{{avox nite Peter }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Hey, thanks! Just like I said, I've only studied a little bit. when I did that slide, I knew even less than I do now. }}} {{{chahibi }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Recently I bought a music CD by "Elissa" ... and my daughter (12 years old) just makes fun of me; says I just like to listen to all those Arabic love songs ... }}} {{{edtrager mrdocs: Good night }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: Arabic songs sound different }}} {{{edtrager chahibi: Different from what ? }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: different from western languages }}} {{{chahibi edtrager: But modern songs give more importance to the video clip than to Music, really stupid }}} {{{edtrager Hey everyone, it's now just about 3 hours since the IRC meeting started, so I assume it's officially over, right? I need to go now too. Good night /day/afternoon everyone. }}} {{{chahibi bye }}} {{{avox cya }}}