1 11:41 <@brad> Hey folks! Thanks so much for joining us for the first Snowy IRC meeting!
2 11:42 <@brad> sorry it was such late notice -- we'll be better about this in the future
3 11:42 -!- sandy
4 11:42 <@brad> awesome, thanks sandy
5 11:42 <@brad> So basically, I've asked everyone to come here so that we can get Snowy more organized
6 11:42 <@brad> so that we can eventually launch Tomboy Online and make Snowy usable for everyone
7 11:43 <@brad> Sandy has prepared a wonderfull roadmap: http://live.gnome.org/Snowy/TomboyOnlineRoadmap
8 11:43 <@sandy> Warning: DRAFT ;-)
9 11:43 <@brad> so that we can prioritize the things to get us launched in stages with Tomboy Online
10 11:43 <@brad> our first priority is to make sure that we don't lose data
11 11:44 <@brad> and that people's notes are securely stored
12 11:44 <@brad> and aren't accessible by l33t hax0rs
13 11:44 <@brad> so we're looking for people who would be willing to do the unsexy work of writing some snowy unit tests
14 11:44 <@sandy> since we're not hardcore webservice maintainers, we recognize that we're going to need outside help on this part
15 11:44 <@brad> yup
16 11:45 <@sandy> (incidentally, this is also the reason we're shifting focus to a GNOME-hosted Tomboy Online instead of doing it ourselves)
17 11:45 <@brad> thankfully, GNOME has generously offered the time of sysadmins
18 11:45 <@brad> and the hardware and bandwidth to run it
19 11:45 <@brad> so thanks very much to the board, pcutler and stormy!
20 11:46 <@brad> sandy: so should we see where people are willing to help out, or did you want to add any more?
21 11:46 <@sandy> I'll briefly mention the idea of the phases
22 11:46 <@brad> awesome
23 11:46 <@sandy> even though it's on the roadmap draft
24 11:46 <@sandy> Software that's not used by anyone is software that doesn't get bugs reported
25 11:47 <@sandy> which is software that doesn't get any work done on it
26 11:47 <@sandy> we're trying to get out of that negative feedback loop with snowy
27 11:47 <@sandy> so the sooner we can get a usable service online with users testing it, the better
28 11:47 <@sandy> The idea of the Tomboy Online roadmap is to have launch phases that serve as milestones for Snowy development
29 11:48 <@sandy> We can start with a private alpha that only crazy people (mostly developers, I would think) would be invited to
30 11:48 <@sandy> during that time we will figure out a lot of the gotchas of running a live web service
31 11:48 <@sandy> but before that time we need to, as brad says, have tests in place to guarantee security, etc
32 11:49 <@sandy> anyway, the next proposed phases would be an invite-only beta that has a few more guarantees about not eating your notes
33 11:49 <@sandy> and then an open beta that lasts as long as we need for things to be "done"
34 11:50 <@sandy> I've started rearranging our TODO list into the phases, though it is again, just a draft:
35 11:50 <@sandy> http://armstrong-clan.net/dump/SnowyPhasedTODOList.html
36 11:50 <@sandy> brad: okay, let's start figuring out what people are interested in helping with
37 11:50 <@sandy> then later maybe we can work together to group tasks into phases
38 11:50 <@sandy> I really want to figure out how we can get something going on GNOME hardware ASAP ;-)
39 11:50 <@brad> great!
40 11:51 <@brad> First off, we need a few enterprising hackers who know or want to learn Django
41 11:51 <@brad> to knock out unit tests
42 11:51 <@brad> anyone interested?
43 11:51 <@brad> don't be shy :)
44 11:51 <@sandy> I've already added some basic ones
45 11:51 <@sandy> so this isn't starting from scratch or anything
46 11:51 <@brad> I'll definitely be around to provide assistance, patch review, tc
47 11:51 <@brad> etc*
48 11:52 <@brad> Okay, I guess I'll be taking that on myself
49 11:52 < pcutler> brad: it's ok if no one steps up right now in the meeting - this was scheduled a bit short notice - we'll get the minutes published and email the list / blog about it which will also give volunteers a chance to speak up
50 11:53 <@sandy> yeah, some people have already stopped by and said they want to help but can't make the meeting
51 11:53 <@brad> you know what, sandy had a bright idea --why don't we have everyone introduce themselves and what they're interested in working on?
52 11:53 <@sandy> I know rektide_, manuelh, pcutler, and stormy are here
53 11:53 <@sandy> anyone else?
54 11:53 < pcutler> I'm Paul, I maintain the Tomboy documentation, and work on the GNOME sysadmin, marketing and documentation teams
55 11:54 <@brad> I'm brad -- I started Snowy with Sandy, and I'm responsible for most of the Django code in Snowy
56 11:54 < stormy> I'm Stormy, ED of GNOME Foundation. Here to help in any way I can to make things happen.
57 11:54 <@sandy> earlier, dvj stopped by and said "first, you guys rock ,and second, I could give a hand with any graphic design /css work"
58 11:54 < dvj> I'm Doug, I hack on Tomboy once and a while
59 11:55 <@sandy> :-P
60 11:55 * dvj here for a minute
61 11:55 < manuelh> my name is manuel. As you may know i'm has contributed some initial design mockups.
62 11:55 <@sandy> which were awesome
63 11:55 < pcutler> I think dvj and manuelh could be fast friends :)
64 11:55 <@sandy> oh, and I'm Sandy, I maintain Tomboy and have mostly worked on Snowy's REST API stuff
65 11:56 <@sandy> pcutler: :-)
66 11:56 <@brad> Glad everyone could make it!
67 11:56 <@sandy> brad: I know you're interested in the design stuff, should we talk about that real quick?
68 11:56 <@sandy> break it up into tasks?
69 11:56 <@brad> well, we definitely need people to look at the UI a bit and make a sexy, usable design
70 11:56 <@brad> sandy: way ahead of you :)
71 11:56 <@sandy> haha
72 11:57 <@brad> Manuel developed some really awesome mockups
73 11:57 <@brad> and it would be great if dvj and manuelh could work together on them
74 11:57 <@brad> we also need a logo
75 11:57 <@brad> dvj: does that sound interesting?
76 11:58 < dvj> his stuff looked great, I could lend a hand with whatever needed to be done to turn the designs into an implementation
77 11:58 <@sandy> correct me if I'm wrong, brad, but people could work on the design without even knowing django templates
78 11:58 <@sandy> it would still be useful for us to have pure HTML/CSS mockups
79 11:58 <@sandy> which could then easily be translated to django templates
80 11:58 <@brad> that would be great
81 11:58 <@sandy> so the barrier for contributions is pretty low, I hope :-)
82 11:58 < manuelh> dvj: that sounds great. i've already started to transform the mockup into html and css
83 11:59 < dvj> awesome
84 11:59 <@brad> the main things we need would be a theme for the main page, a design for the note page, and a design for what a page that list notes would look like
85 12:00 < pcutler> are we using any dvcs for the html / css development?
86 12:00 <@sandy> we have a mockups folder in snowy git
87 12:00 -!- mowestusa
88 12:00 <@brad> dvj and manuelh: do either of you have GNOME git accounts?
89 12:00 <@sandy> no, they don't
90 12:00 < dvj> i dont
91 12:00 < manuelh> yeah i have one
92 12:00 <@sandy> oh!
93 12:00 * sandy spoke too soon
94 12:01 <@brad> cool!
95 12:01 <@sandy> well we need to get dvj an account soon, anyway
96 12:01 < pcutler> dvj: I would recommend applying and list sandy as a mentor, especially with your work in tomboy, and sandy and I can discuss later if he's willing to sponsor you
97 12:01 <@brad> perfect
98 12:01 < dvj> ok, i'll talk to sandy about it off-list
99 12:01 <@sandy> (I already had this in my mind from Tomboy contributions)
100 12:02 <@sandy> brad: is it fair to say that the mockups directory is fair game for manuelh and dvj right now?
101 12:02 <@brad> sandy: totally
102 12:03 <@brad> go nuts :)
103 12:03 -!- ced117_
104 12:03 <@sandy> the fun thing about design work is that even though it's not technically required for us to start an alpha, etc, the sooner we have nice-looking software the more users will want to use it, which will help us all out a lot
105 12:04 <@brad> exactly my thoughts
106 12:04 <@brad> sandy: maybe we should coordinate the rest of the tasks (e.g.: dev tasks) on snowy-list?
107 12:04 <@sandy> brad: so are we all set on this topic? I'd like to brainstorm about alpha launch reqs
108 12:04 <@brad> yeah, let's do that
109 12:04 <@sandy> brad: yeah, that sounds good
110 12:05 <@sandy> I think with a private alpha, we can even say that data loss is acceptable
111 12:05 <@sandy> because it seems reasonable that we are going to be messing with deployment
112 12:05 < dvj> I'd like to add one item to the todo list before i take off:
113 12:05 <@sandy> dvj: please, go ahead
114 12:05 < dvj> If we need to make any changes to the tomboy note format (ie: even the date issue that came up yesterday)
115 12:06 < dvj> and the other xml tags in it,
116 12:06 < dvj> we should do that soon
117 12:06 <@sandy> dvj: it's too late in the cycle
118 12:06 <@sandy> we can change the format of stuff in the API
119 12:06 <@brad> feature complete is monday, right?
120 12:06 <@sandy> but that doesn't mean we need to change how the actual .note files are saved
121 12:07 <@sandy> and we'll still want to support Tomboy 1.0
122 12:07 < dvj> well, it could be for next cycle as well
123 12:07 < dvj> since that's when these two projects are really going to come together
124 12:07 <@sandy> nod
125 12:08 <@sandy> I think snowy and other API implementers are going to have to support a variety of datetime formats
126 12:08 <@sandy> the change would be what format they return in requests
127 12:08 <@brad> sandy: that type of change would result in a format version number bump, right?
128 12:08 < dvj> (even the xmlns in the .note are out of date)
129 12:09 <@sandy> brad: yeah
130 12:09 < dvj> still point to broken links at beatniksoft
131 12:09 <@brad> as long as that happens, I think we're cool
132 12:09 <@sandy> dvj: xmlns does not have to be a valid link
133 12:09 <@sandy> but yeah
134 12:09 < dvj> i dont want to harp on it, but its something todo at some point :)
135 12:09 <@sandy> totally
136 12:10 <@sandy> okay, let's move on while we still have pcutler and stormy here
137 12:10 < manuelh> do we already have a schedule for each development phase? When do you expect to move to invite-only beta?
138 12:10 <@sandy> manuelh: no, not yet
139 12:10 <@brad> I think it's still a bit early
140 12:10 <@sandy> they have to be feature-based, I think, not time-based
141 12:11 <@sandy> although a schedule is still necessary :-)
142 12:11 <@brad> that's fair
143 12:11 <@sandy> once we've broken up the tasks into the phases, and agreed a bit on that, we should make a schedule I think
144 12:12 <@sandy> okay, so pcutler and stormy :-)
145 12:12 <@sandy> The only things I picked for requirements to bug ya'all about starting a private alpha were:
146 12:12 <@sandy> o Pick one deployment method and make sure it works.
147 12:12 <@sandy> o More complete unit tests of REST API
148 12:12 <@sandy> o How to test security of everything else?
149 12:12 <@sandy> so basically, security and deployment
150 12:13 <@sandy> does anything else come to mind that we need to figure out first?
151 12:13 < pcutler> no, I think we don't need automated signups for a private alpha, beta maybe
152 12:13 <@sandy> yeah, we'd have to disable that
153 12:13 < pcutler> if the snowy alpha needs a new tomboy to work, can we do a PPA in ubuntu and something in factory for opensuse?
154 12:14 < stormy> From a private alpha, will we be able to get an idea of bandwidth requirements?
155 12:14 <@sandy> it should not need a new Tomboy
156 12:14 -!- mowestusa
157 12:14 <@sandy> stormy: I'm hoping the answer is yes
158 12:14 <@sandy> but this is a brand new domain for me
159 12:14 <@sandy> brad, any thoughts?
160 12:14 <@brad> stormy: potentially. but it'll be hard to anticipate how many users we'll have
161 12:15 < pcutler> for a private alpha we'll know the users - it's something that we'll have to monitor ongoing
162 12:15 -!- kallepersson
163 12:15 <@sandy> there are always going to be inconsiderate users who insist on syncing every two minutes
164 12:15 * stormy wonders if the Canonical folks have done any kind of end user survey and have an idea of % of users that use Tomboy ...
165 12:15 <@brad> pcutler: right, I meant to say that it's hard to anticipate how many users we'll have at beta or public release
166 12:15 < aquarius> stormy, not that I know of, but I can look into it.
167 12:16 <@brad> perfect, I'm glad you're here aquarius
168 12:16 < stormy> that'd be great, aquarius, thanks
169 12:16 <@sandy> stormy: with my GNOME hat on, I think it's important that we experiment with hosting a web service
170 12:16 < aquarius> thought I'd drop in to get away from headbutting gtk for a bit :)
171 12:16 < stormy> sandy, absolutely. I'm excited about it.
172 12:16 <@sandy> and I think Tomboy is pretty light, no multimedia
173 12:16 <@sandy> if this doesn't work, then we've still learned something
174 12:16 < stormy> And we'll try again.
175 12:17 < stormy> If we don't get web apps, free software will lose out to free web services that aren't free.
176 12:17 < aquarius> not sure the alpha will help with bandwidth assessment. bandwidth is users * syncs_per_user * data_exchanged_per_sync, no? You can assess, roughly, data_exchanged_per_sync now, and syncs_per_user is guessable a bit based on the alpha but people in the alpha aren't normal users :)
177 12:17 <@sandy> exactly
178 12:17 <@sandy> aquarius: we should talk about what a reasonable autosync interval is, btw
179 12:17 <@brad> sandy: does the snowy extension for tomboy poll periodically yet?
180 12:18 <@sandy> brad: no, I hope to have that in before Monday
181 12:18 <@brad> s/poll/sync/
182 12:18 <@brad> cool
183 12:18 < aquarius> sandy, yes. I have some thoughts about that, one of them being that you could make it event-driven and not poll at all...
184 12:19 <@sandy> aquarius: how would that work from a pure HTTP viewpoint?
185 12:19 <@brad> pcutler: as far as web requirements, Django offers a variety of deployment methods: http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/howto/deployment/
186 12:19 < aquarius> it's a bit hectic from the server's point of view, though, that :)
187 12:19 * stormy found this concept of collecting donations directly towards costs interesting http://poss.gliderlab.com/
188 12:19 < aquarius> sandy, that's what Comet is for
189 12:19 <@brad> nod
190 12:19 <@brad> sandy: super lightweight server that can host thousands of active connections
191 12:19 < pcutler> brad: I'm not worried about django requirements, I know we do or can meet those, it's more of getting a volunteer to install it and maintain it on the sysadmin team
192 12:20 <@brad> pcutler: yeah, that makes sense
193 12:20 * aquarius waves a very small flag with "couchdb" written on it in 4-point text :)
194 12:20 <@brad> aquarius: haha
195 12:20 <@sandy> aquarius: I'm concerned that we have a real need for things like transactions and consistency, but maybe that's in my mind?
196 12:20 <@brad> aquarius: I didn't realize that couch supported COMET
197 12:21 <@sandy> stormy: interesting link
198 12:21 < aquarius> brad, it does, but not Bayeux on top; you can hang on the _changes feed and get new lines when something alters
199 12:21 <@sandy> that would certainly help us limit our user base :-P
200 12:22 <@brad> sandy: cool cool... this meeting has been great so far; is there anything else we wanted to discuss?
201 12:22 <@sandy> brad: I think we're okay
202 12:22 <@brad> aquarius: interesting
203 12:22 < stormy> sandy, if we end up with too big of a user base, we'll celebrate and then figure out what to do.
204 12:22 <@sandy> pcutler: stormy: manuelh: aquarius: anything else you guys wanted to chat about?
205 12:23 < aquarius> sandy, I...am not sure about that. It depends rather dramatically on how you plan to deal with conflicts. If you go for the transaction approach then you basically end up blocking tomboy2 from posting while tomboy1 is doing it. I like eventual consistency myself, but I can't promise that it's totally the right way (as evidenced by the issues we've had at U1 with conflicts)
206 12:23 < stormy> When would be your guestimate to when you'd want to launch private alpha?
207 12:23 < pcutler> no, this was a good start. I want to get the minutes published, and make it clear where we're looking for help or who is already working on what
208 12:23 <@brad> stormy: maybe three weeks? but I'm just shooting in the dark here
209 12:23 < pcutler> stormy: I need to check with the Sysadmin team and see if our new server can be used for this and find a volunteer first and have the team brainstorm security risks / questions
210 12:23 <@sandy> stormy: as soon as possible. Three weeks sounds like as good a random target as any
211 12:24 < stormy> pcutler, let me know how that goes.
212 12:24 <@brad> so what action items do we have?
213 12:24 < aquarius> is there anything that actually needs to be done in between now and deployment? (other than the Gnome sysadmins finding somewhere to put it and actually deploying, obviously.) Like, do you want to block deployment on having a new design finished, or on any not-yet-finished features?
214 12:24 <@brad> pcutler is going to figure out what the Sysadmin team can do
215 12:24 <@sandy> dvj is going to ping me about a git account
216 12:24 <@brad> aquarius: well, we want to do unit tests, and get an initial design down
217 12:25 <@brad> I'm going to email the list regarding development tasks
218 12:25 <@sandy> aquarius: http://armstrong-clan.net/dump/SnowyPhasedTODOList.html
219 12:25 <@sandy> (draft)
220 12:25 <@brad> dvj and manuelh: can you guys get together, work on the mockups, and keep the list updated with your progress?
221 12:25 < pcutler> and sandy and brad should blog about areas where we need help too :)
222 12:26 <@sandy> yes
223 12:26 <@brad> yeah, definitely.
224 12:26 < pcutler> I'm going to turn all developers into marketers yet
225 12:26 < manuelh> i will focus on bringing the design to life. so my next tasks will be to checkin all editable mockup files and the first drafts of the transformation to html/css
226 12:26 <@brad> splendid!
227 12:26 <@brad> ok, anything else we're missing?
228 12:26 < pcutler> I'll publish the minutes on lgo and mail the lists
229 12:26 <@brad> pcutler: you da man!
230 12:27 <@sandy> so brad or I will start a discussion about organizing work on the list, and from there finalize our phased TODO list
231 12:27 <@sandy> I think that's everything
232 12:27 <@brad> awesome! thanks everyone for joining us!
233 12:27 <@brad> we're going to make Snowy totally awesome
234 12:28 < stormy> I'm looking forward to using Snowy!
235 12:28 <@sandy> me too :-P
