Attachment '20081110.log'
Download20:00 -!- benzea changed the topic of #gnome-art to: GNOME Artwork and Themes | Meeting time! 20:00 <@benzea> everyone here? 20:00 < kwwii> hi 20:00 < thorwil> hi 20:01 <@benzea> great :-) 20:01 <@benzea> I have three things on my list right now: 20:01 <@benzea> # secondary GNOME Logo 20:01 <@benzea> # Plans for GNOME 2.26 20:01 <@benzea> # continued discussion about GNOME 3.0 plans 20:01 <@benzea> and would suggest we discuss them in that order 20:02 < vdepizzol> ok 20:02 <@benzea> so: secondary logo 20:03 <@benzea> as I understand it issue is that in some cultures the foot is considered inappropriate 20:04 <@benzea> and Theppitak suggested a secondary logo for GNOME for this reason 20:04 <@benzea> there is a summery at http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue 20:06 -!- mccann [~jmccann@66.187.234.199] has quit [See ya] 20:06 -!- mccann [~jmccann@66.187.234.199] has joined #gnome-art 20:06 <@benzea> so, I put the topic on the list because of the request to have a new logo 20:06 < kwwii> I understand the problem, read the information but personaly having different logos presents a branding problem 20:07 < Gyb> schön 20:07 < pacho> Hi! Anyway, gnome logo is a draw, not a photo of a real foot, Is it still offensive? 20:07 < thorwil> if this is such an issue for people in those cultures, it will also be a problem online 20:07 < Gyb> wrong window, sry 20:07 <@benzea> yeah, I was wondering a bit, one would need to have both on gnome.org for example 20:07 <@benzea> pacho: apparently, yes 20:08 < pacho> ok :-| 20:08 < kwwii> someday there might be a need to update the foot logo, I would suggest taking this into consideration at that time, not now 20:08 < thorwil> benzea: with both there you would still be offensive 20:08 <@andreasn> I think we can decrease the usage of the foot logo in the actual interface to a great extent 20:08 <@benzea> I think andreasn has already replaced/will replace the throbber with something neutral 20:08 < kwwii> andreasn: that is a very good idea 20:09 <@andreasn> yeah, the throbber is a easy target, I have a bug open and a fix in the works 20:09 < vdepizzol> I would suggest to only use the "GNOME" letters, but for the start-here icon, for example, an image is anyway necessary 20:09 < kwwii> what is you just said "it is not a foot it is a footprint"? :-) 20:09 <@benzea> it was mentioned that it is a big problem for new users 20:10 <@benzea> so it seems that the we may want to remove the logo in gdm (if it is there) and the main menu applet 20:10 <@benzea> or the splash screen 20:11 < thorwil> so in short, if the footprint doesn't appear anymore, we are happy because that logo was kept? ;) 20:12 <@benzea> also seems a bit weird, if the logo does not appear anymore, than the string GNOME may become the logo :-) 20:13 < thorwil> i think the footprint should be either kept or dropped, anything between simply doesn't meat the goals of either side 20:13 <@benzea> well, I don't think anyone suggested to drop the foot/footprint logo 20:13 <@andreasn> I think redesigning the logo itself might be a bit tricky, I mean, regardless of what we do, it could offend some culture/group 20:14 <@benzea> the idea was to create a secondary logo, and have icon themes that do not contain the GNOME foot 20:14 < vdepizzol> this might solve most of the problem 20:14 < kwwii> thorwil: the idea is to reduce the occurence of the disturbing logo in the software (until such a time as the whole logo issue could be attacked) 20:15 < pacho> Maybe the logo could be modified (I don't know when of for what gnome version, 3?) to something more simple like a "G" (of "gnome") for sole , and some dots for toes :-/ 20:15 < thorwil> benzea: you have to assume that you can control the presentation towards the foot-problem people, this in the internet age ... 20:15 < pacho> Then, it could be interpreted as a foot or simply a "G" logo :-) 20:16 -!- Cimi [~Cimi@host22-182-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #gnome-art 20:16 -!- mode/#gnome-art [+o Cimi] by benzea 20:16 < kwwii> making a second logo is silly I think, you would be investing effort in something that only weakens the branding potential 20:16 <@benzea> hey Cimi 20:16 < thorwil> kwwii: dropping the logo by a death of a thousand cuts, then 20:16 < kwwii> if you're going to change it, change it all the way at once 20:17 <@Cimi> thanks to vdepizzol's status message in facebook :P 20:17 <@benzea> haha 20:17 <@Cimi> i was about to forget this meeting 20:17 < vdepizzol> Cimi: heya :) 20:17 <@Cimi> hi vdepizzol :) 20:17 <@benzea> just talking about the secondary logo thing 20:17 <@Cimi> 2 logos? 20:17 < vdepizzol> Cimi: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue 20:17 < kwwii> thorwil: but until the new logo is ready you could at least reduce the occurence of it in the software (therefor annoying less people while readying people for a new logo) 20:18 <@benzea> not sure about a new logo, I like the current one :-) 20:18 <@benzea> and it is a pretty strong brand I think 20:18 < vdepizzol> benzea: totally agree with you 20:18 < pacho> yeah, current looks nice also 20:18 < thorwil> kwwii: yes, if there wasn't the resistance to move away from it at all 20:19 < kwwii> thorwil: right, that's a given 20:19 <@andreasn> I think I agree with kwwii to a extent 20:19 <@andreasn> two logos might be tricky, or if the secondary one would just be used in thailand 20:20 <@benzea> well, we would need locale dependent icon themes 20:20 -!- Company [~Company@217.199.1.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 20:20 <@andreasn> not if we get rid of the foot logo in the icon themes 20:20 <@benzea> yup 20:20 <@Cimi> even tango has foots :D 20:20 <@Cimi> as start-here 20:20 <@andreasn> right now it's used as start-here (top left corner) and spinner 20:21 <@Cimi> (or how it is called) 20:21 <@benzea> so I guess the conclusion is to reduce/remove the GNOME logo from the icon theme 20:21 <@benzea> but not create a secondary logo (or a new one) 20:21 <@andreasn> yes, I would say so 20:21 <@Cimi> and use? 20:21 <@Cimi> do you've thought about replacementS? 20:21 < kwwii> Cimi: a pink bananna 20:21 <@benzea> spinner is easy I think, ie. dots, or something 20:21 < vdepizzol> yep 20:21 <@benzea> start-here no idea :-) 20:21 <@andreasn> for the spinner, I think the one we used in firefox could work 20:22 < pacho> +1 20:22 <@Cimi> firefox+1 20:22 < kwwii> andreasn: right 20:22 <@andreasn> start-here - a flower like in GNOME 1.x? 20:22 <@benzea> the start-here is not a problem on most distros :-/ 20:22 <@andreasn> but not make it look like a fried egg this time around :) 20:22 < pacho> maybe a "tangoized" gnome... ;-) 20:23 <@andreasn> it's seen in Debian and, hm, Mint Linux maybe? 20:23 <@andreasn> or is it Slackware? 20:23 < pacho> under gentoo is also shown with default gnome icon theme 20:23 <@andreasn> but it's not a problem in either OpenSuse, Fedora or Ubuntu 20:23 <@andreasn> ah, gentoo, right 20:23 <@Cimi> archlinux too 20:23 <@benzea> exactly 20:23 <@Cimi> maybe debian 20:24 <@benzea> well, the distributions that are targeted directly at end users do branding anyways 20:24 < kwwii> then shouldn't it be the responsiblity of downstream to fix this problem if they wish? 20:24 < kwwii> benzea: exactly 20:25 < vdepizzol> so.. what about places like "System Monitor"? 20:25 < pacho> maybe distributions could modify the start-here logo if they plan to ship their products a lot in Thailandia 20:25 <@benzea> though removing the foot logo could still be interesting for some organitions that use eg. debian 20:25 <@andreasn> vdepizzol: hm, what's going on there exactly... 20:25 <@benzea> vdepizzol: I would say leave it 20:26 <@benzea> andreasn: it has the full GNOME logo in the System tab 20:26 < vdepizzol> andreasn: there's a foot there :) 20:26 <@andreasn> yeah, I know, but why? :) 20:26 <@andreasn> is it to make the boring tool "fun"? 20:26 <@benzea> ah, well that is true ... 20:26 < kwwii> andreasn: we were going to change it in ubuntu and then I was told not to :-) 20:27 <@andreasn> kwwii: to honor the work of the gnome developers or something odd like that? 20:27 < kwwii> andreasn: yeah, normaly that is against our rules :p 20:27 <@benzea> well, that is what "About GNOME" is for :-) 20:28 <@benzea> no idea if that exists in ubuntu ;-) 20:28 <@andreasn> it does 20:29 <@andreasn> but anyway, the system monitor isn't really that visible 20:29 <@benzea> so, I guess it would be great if someone has a good idea about the start-here logo 20:29 < vdepizzol> yeah 20:30 < vdepizzol> jimmac was doing something related to that, I think http://twitter.com/jimmac/status/986877647 20:30 <@andreasn> vdepizzol: I think it was a joke actually 20:30 < vdepizzol> oh, ok :D 20:31 <@andreasn> I could give a flower a shot, would tie into the nature thing a bit more 20:31 < pacho> maybe an alternative logo could be automatically chosen when affected locales are being used (but I don't know if it could be technically possible) 20:31 <@andreasn> I think it's technically tricky if not 20:31 <@benzea> pacho: it is possible, we can create locale specific GTK+ themes, and load the icons via the old mechanism 20:32 < pacho> ah :-) 20:32 <@benzea> ugly, but workable 20:32 * Cimi must go now 20:32 <@benzea> heh, bye Cimi 20:32 <@Cimi> bye 20:32 < vdepizzol> ciao, Cimi 20:32 < pacho> hasta luego Cimi 20:32 <@Cimi> ciao 20:33 <@benzea> pacho: it is ugly, if we want that it would be much better to extend the icon theme specification to support icons depending on the locale 20:34 < pacho> ok :-/ 20:34 <@andreasn> sounds quite ugly indeed 20:34 <@benzea> (the icon would never change, it would need to be shipped with the theme, and distros would need to patch gnome-themes ...) 20:34 <@benzea> ugly ... 20:36 * pacho needs to go for a moment 20:37 < vdepizzol> localize the icon theme seems not to be an option. So the change of the logo and the creation of a secondary one :/ 20:38 <@benzea> well, I would guess it is just the start-here icon now 20:39 <@benzea> some neutral thing would be good, but I don't think it needs to get a "logo" status 20:39 < vdepizzol> sure :) 20:39 <@andreasn> agreed 20:39 <@benzea> ok, I guess the conclusion is that locale specific icons support would be nice to have :-) 20:39 <@andreasn> I'm not sure I agree 20:40 <@benzea> hm, then we just use a different icon as start-here? 20:40 -!- weld [~weld@p57A87E47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gnome-art 20:40 <@andreasn> I would rather see that at least 20:41 <@benzea> ok, good 20:41 <@andreasn> so, 2.26 plans? 20:41 <@benzea> was about to say that :-) 20:42 <@benzea> we did punt a few thing from the 2.24 list over to 2.26 20:43 <@andreasn> http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap/Artwork - is this the most up to date one? 20:43 <@benzea> ah, thanks 20:43 <@benzea> did not find the page 20:44 <@benzea> I think so, I moved the dark/flat/compact theme stuff down when 2.24 was almost there 20:44 <@andreasn> the 256x256 and one canvas started, but I'm not sure what the time frame is 20:45 <@andreasn> if it's 2.26 or 2.28 material 20:45 <@benzea> should all icons get a 256x256 version? 20:45 <@benzea> sounds like a lot of work to me 20:45 <@andreasn> it is :) 20:46 <@benzea> I think it would be great if the ball gets rolling before 2.26, but wouldn't expect a huge coverage till then 20:46 * pacho has returned 20:47 <@benzea> and it is most important to have application icons in high res? 20:48 <@andreasn> those that would be used by GNOME Do and friends I would say 20:48 <@andreasn> or in Elisa Media Center 20:49 <@andreasn> there is also a use for it in a property dialog in Banshee, so the media-player icon is almost done for that 20:50 <@benzea> andreasn has the knowledge :-) 20:51 <@andreasn> well, anywhere where you need to display 64x64 and up basically 20:51 < nasam> What about svg'ing everything? 20:51 <@andreasn> well, it do scale up in gnome do already, but the lines grow all thick 20:52 <@benzea> isn't most svg already? 20:52 * vdepizzol need to go 20:52 < vdepizzol> até mais! 20:52 <@andreasn> but at least it don't look pixelated and broken (like it did with the pixmaps), but it still looks nicer with something aimed at higher resolution with finer lines and stuff 20:52 <@benzea> (but rendered into png) 20:53 <@andreasn> ah, yeah, or librsvg will go.... eeek 20:53 -!- vdepizzol [~vinicius@201.78.89.77] has quit [Ex-Chat] 20:53 <@andreasn> but yeah, we should move some more stuff from 2.24 to 2.26 on that page 20:54 <@benzea> or even later :-) 20:54 <@andreasn> yes, it feels silly to just put everything there 20:54 <@benzea> I don't expect the flat theme thing for 2.26 20:55 <@benzea> compact theme would be nice, and the dark theme might be nicer to do after we have color scheme support 20:56 <@andreasn> regarding cutting noise in "future release", kwwii, do you have a plan for the next release about that in ubuntu? 20:56 <@andreasn> because mark and mpt was both quite keen on the idea 20:57 <@andreasn> and fedora was looking into the menu issue at least: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/MenuIcons 20:57 < kwwii> andreasn: nope, we should be getting some stuff together very soon though 20:57 <@andreasn> ah, there it is: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469 20:57 < bugbot> Bug 557469: normal, Normal, ---, libgnome-maint@gnome.bugs, NEW, set menus_have_icons=false by default 20:58 <@andreasn> ah, right, the UDS is next month 20:58 < kwwii> andreasn: yepp, expect some stuff from us soon 20:58 <@andreasn> cool, cool 21:00 <@benzea> oh, I don't have that many plans for gtk-engines, maybe reorganizing the code to make it easier to maintain forks 21:01 <@benzea> not sure if Cimi has some plans, but I don't think he mentioned anything 21:03 <@benzea> I hope that guisef and maybe thos or Gyb will work on the colorscheme stuff :-) 21:03 -!- nunod [~nuno@bl5-185-31.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #gnome-art 21:03 <@benzea> hm, I guess that concludes this 21:04 <@andreasn> I think so, yes 21:04 <@benzea> should we discuss anything wrt. the GNOME 3.0 stuff? 21:04 < kwwii> cool, thanks everyone 21:04 < baze> if i may ask, how about pushing the gtk-css engine a bit for 2.26? its roadmap has some nice stuff... 21:04 <@benzea> I don't have anything in particular ... 21:05 <@benzea> baze: I am not sure, but I wouldn't expect it to be ready/stable enough till then 21:05 <@andreasn> me neither really, depends a lot on the owen shell and the plans regarding that and stuff 21:06 <@benzea> personally I am pretty sceptical of the implementation on top of the current GTK+ api (and hopefully we are going to fix that for GTK+ 3.0) 21:06 <@andreasn> I guess the theme hackfest will straighten out some of those question marks? 21:06 <@benzea> andreasn: yeah 21:06 <@benzea> theme hackfest? 21:06 <@andreasn> we should also look into organizing a Art Hackfest at some point next year 21:06 <@benzea> is there anything in bozen? 21:07 <@benzea> we are going to have an hackfest in february in dublin about the GTK+ theming stuff 21:07 <@andreasn> I think something around LGM would work well 21:07 <@benzea> when is that? 21:07 <@andreasn> in early May 21:08 <@benzea> I guess all you designers are going to be there anyways ;-) 21:09 <@andreasn> yes 21:09 <@andreasn> it's going to be in Canada this time around it seems 21:09 <@benzea> ok, any preference for a weekday/time for next month? otherwise, monday 8th, some time? 21:09 <@benzea> andreasn: oh, cool, where, if I may ask :-) 21:09 <@andreasn> montreal city () 21:09 <@andreasn> (I think) 21:10 <@andreasn> same time next month works pretty good for me 21:10 <@benzea> eek, french ;-) 21:10 * Cimi wants RGBA 21:10 <@Cimi> RGBA is required if we want to push the look a step ahead 21:11 <@benzea> the other coast would have been nice, could have visited some people I know there ... 21:11 <@benzea> Cimi: yeah, well, long term :-) 21:11 <@Cimi> benzea, just someone should add that xsetting 21:12 <@Cimi> the tray no longer crashes 21:12 < qball> RGBA is very but slow on some pc's 21:12 <@Cimi> it will be optional 21:12 <@benzea> I think rgba is important for nice rounded corners mostly ... 21:12 <@andreasn> I better run now, thanks for your time everyone! 21:12 <@Cimi> and tooltips 21:13 <@Cimi> menus 21:13 <@Cimi> and a fancy murrine theme :) 21:13 <@benzea> yeah, thanks everyone for being around :-)
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