20:00 -!- benzea changed the topic of #gnome-art to: GNOME Artwork and Themes | Meeting time!
20:00 <@benzea> everyone here?
20:00 < kwwii> hi
20:00 < thorwil> hi
20:01 <@benzea> great :-)
20:01 <@benzea> I have three things on my list right now:
20:01 <@benzea> # secondary GNOME Logo
20:01 <@benzea> # Plans for GNOME 2.26
20:01 <@benzea> # continued discussion about GNOME 3.0 plans 
20:01 <@benzea> and would suggest we discuss them in that order
20:02 < vdepizzol> ok
20:02 <@benzea> so: secondary logo
20:03 <@benzea> as I understand it issue is that in some cultures the foot is considered inappropriate
20:04 <@benzea> and Theppitak suggested a secondary logo for GNOME for this reason
20:04 <@benzea> there is a summery at http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue
20:06 -!- mccann [~jmccann@66.187.234.199] has quit [See ya]
20:06 -!- mccann [~jmccann@66.187.234.199] has joined #gnome-art
20:06 <@benzea> so, I put the topic on the list because of the request to have a new logo
20:06 < kwwii> I understand the problem, read the information but personaly having different logos presents a branding problem
20:07 < Gyb> schön
20:07 < pacho> Hi! Anyway, gnome logo is a draw, not a photo of a real foot, Is it still offensive?
20:07 < thorwil> if this is such an issue for people in those cultures, it will also be a problem online
20:07 < Gyb> wrong window, sry
20:07 <@benzea> yeah, I was wondering a bit, one would need to have both on gnome.org for example
20:07 <@benzea> pacho: apparently, yes
20:08 < pacho> ok :-|
20:08 < kwwii> someday there might be a need to update the foot logo, I would suggest taking this into consideration at that time, not now
20:08 < thorwil> benzea: with both there you would still be offensive
20:08 <@andreasn> I think we can decrease the usage of the foot logo in the actual interface to a great extent
20:08 <@benzea> I think andreasn has already replaced/will replace the throbber with something neutral
20:08 < kwwii> andreasn: that is a very good idea
20:09 <@andreasn> yeah, the throbber is a easy target, I have a bug open and a fix in the works
20:09 < vdepizzol> I would suggest to only use the "GNOME" letters, but for the start-here icon, for example, an image is anyway necessary
20:09 < kwwii> what is you just said "it is not a foot it is a footprint"? :-)
20:09 <@benzea> it was mentioned that it is a big problem for new users
20:10 <@benzea> so it seems that the we may want to remove the logo in gdm (if it is there) and the main menu applet
20:10 <@benzea> or the splash screen
20:11 < thorwil> so in short, if the footprint doesn't appear anymore, we are happy because that logo was kept? ;)
20:12 <@benzea> also seems a bit weird, if the logo does not appear anymore, than the string GNOME may become the logo :-)
20:13 < thorwil> i think the footprint should be either kept or dropped, anything between simply doesn't meat the goals of either side
20:13 <@benzea> well, I don't think anyone suggested to drop the foot/footprint logo
20:13 <@andreasn> I think redesigning the logo itself might be a bit tricky, I mean, regardless of what we do, it could offend some culture/group
20:14 <@benzea> the idea was to create a secondary logo, and have icon themes that do not contain the GNOME foot
20:14 < vdepizzol> this might solve most of the problem
20:14 < kwwii> thorwil: the idea is to reduce the occurence of the disturbing logo in the software (until such a time as the whole logo issue could be attacked)
20:15 < pacho> Maybe the logo could be modified (I don't know when of for what gnome version, 3?) to something more simple like a "G" (of "gnome") for sole , and some dots for toes :-/
20:15 < thorwil> benzea: you have to assume that you can control the presentation towards the foot-problem people, this in the internet age ...
20:15 < pacho> Then, it could be interpreted as a foot or simply a "G" logo :-)
20:16 -!- Cimi [~Cimi@host22-182-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #gnome-art
20:16 -!- mode/#gnome-art [+o Cimi] by benzea
20:16 < kwwii> making a second logo is silly I think, you would be investing effort in something that only weakens the branding potential
20:16 <@benzea> hey Cimi
20:16 < thorwil> kwwii: dropping the logo by a death of a thousand cuts, then
20:16 < kwwii> if you're going to change it, change it all the way at once
20:17 <@Cimi> thanks to vdepizzol's status message in facebook :P
20:17 <@benzea> haha
20:17 <@Cimi> i was about to forget this meeting
20:17 < vdepizzol> Cimi: heya :)
20:17 <@Cimi> hi vdepizzol :)
20:17 <@benzea> just talking about the secondary logo thing
20:17 <@Cimi> 2 logos?
20:17 < vdepizzol> Cimi: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue
20:17 < kwwii> thorwil: but until the new logo is ready you could at least reduce the occurence of it in the software (therefor annoying less people while readying people for a new logo)
20:18 <@benzea> not sure about a new logo, I like the current one :-)
20:18 <@benzea> and it is a pretty strong brand I think
20:18 < vdepizzol> benzea: totally agree with you
20:18 < pacho> yeah, current looks nice also
20:18 < thorwil> kwwii: yes, if there wasn't the resistance to move away from it at all
20:19 < kwwii> thorwil: right, that's a given
20:19 <@andreasn> I think I agree with kwwii to a extent
20:19 <@andreasn> two logos might be tricky, or if the secondary one would just be used in thailand
20:20 <@benzea> well, we would need locale dependent icon themes
20:20 -!- Company [~Company@217.199.1.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
20:20 <@andreasn> not if we get rid of the foot logo in the icon themes
20:20 <@benzea> yup
20:20 <@Cimi> even tango has foots :D
20:20 <@Cimi> as start-here
20:20 <@andreasn> right now it's used as start-here (top left corner) and spinner
20:21 <@Cimi> (or how it is called)
20:21 <@benzea> so I guess the conclusion is to reduce/remove the GNOME logo from the icon theme
20:21 <@benzea> but not create a secondary logo (or a new one)
20:21 <@andreasn> yes, I would say so
20:21 <@Cimi> and use?
20:21 <@Cimi> do you've thought about replacementS?
20:21 < kwwii> Cimi: a pink bananna
20:21 <@benzea> spinner is easy I think, ie. dots, or something
20:21 < vdepizzol> yep
20:21 <@benzea> start-here no idea :-)
20:21 <@andreasn> for the spinner, I think the one we used in firefox could work
20:22 < pacho> +1
20:22 <@Cimi> firefox+1
20:22 < kwwii> andreasn: right
20:22 <@andreasn> start-here - a flower like in GNOME 1.x?
20:22 <@benzea> the start-here is not a problem on most distros :-/
20:22 <@andreasn> but not make it look like a fried egg this time around :)
20:22 < pacho> maybe a "tangoized" gnome... ;-)
20:23 <@andreasn> it's seen in Debian and, hm, Mint Linux maybe?
20:23 <@andreasn> or is it Slackware?
20:23 < pacho> under gentoo is also shown with default gnome icon theme
20:23 <@andreasn> but it's not a problem in either OpenSuse, Fedora or Ubuntu
20:23 <@andreasn> ah, gentoo, right
20:23 <@Cimi> archlinux too
20:23 <@benzea> exactly
20:23 <@Cimi> maybe debian
20:24 <@benzea> well, the distributions that are targeted directly at end users do branding anyways
20:24 < kwwii> then shouldn't it be the responsiblity of downstream to fix this problem if they wish?
20:24 < kwwii> benzea: exactly
20:25 < vdepizzol> so.. what about places like "System Monitor"?
20:25 < pacho> maybe distributions could modify the start-here logo if they plan to ship their products a lot in Thailandia 
20:25 <@benzea> though removing the foot logo could still be interesting for some organitions that use eg. debian
20:25 <@andreasn> vdepizzol: hm, what's going on there exactly...
20:25 <@benzea> vdepizzol: I would say leave it
20:26 <@benzea> andreasn: it has the full GNOME logo in the System tab
20:26 < vdepizzol> andreasn: there's a foot there :)
20:26 <@andreasn> yeah, I know, but why? :)
20:26 <@andreasn> is it to make the boring tool "fun"?
20:26 <@benzea> ah, well that is true ...
20:26 < kwwii> andreasn: we were going to change it in ubuntu and then I was told not to :-)
20:27 <@andreasn> kwwii: to honor the work of the gnome developers or something odd like that?
20:27 < kwwii> andreasn: yeah, normaly that is against our rules :p
20:27 <@benzea> well, that is what "About GNOME" is for :-)
20:28 <@benzea> no idea if that exists in ubuntu ;-)
20:28 <@andreasn> it does
20:29 <@andreasn> but anyway, the system monitor isn't really that visible
20:29 <@benzea> so, I guess it would be great if someone has a good idea about the start-here logo
20:29 < vdepizzol> yeah
20:30 < vdepizzol> jimmac was doing something related to that, I think http://twitter.com/jimmac/status/986877647
20:30 <@andreasn> vdepizzol: I think it was a joke actually
20:30 < vdepizzol> oh, ok :D
20:31 <@andreasn> I could give a flower a shot, would tie into the nature thing a bit more
20:31 < pacho> maybe an alternative logo could be automatically chosen when affected locales are being used (but I don't know if it could be technically possible)
20:31 <@andreasn> I think it's technically tricky if not
20:31 <@benzea> pacho: it is possible, we can create locale specific GTK+ themes, and load the icons via the old mechanism
20:32 < pacho> ah :-)
20:32 <@benzea> ugly, but workable
20:32  * Cimi must go now
20:32 <@benzea> heh, bye Cimi
20:32 <@Cimi> bye
20:32 < vdepizzol> ciao, Cimi
20:32 < pacho> hasta luego Cimi
20:32 <@Cimi> ciao
20:33 <@benzea> pacho: it is ugly, if we want that it would be much better to extend the icon theme specification to support icons depending on the locale
20:34 < pacho> ok :-/
20:34 <@andreasn> sounds quite ugly indeed
20:34 <@benzea> (the icon would never change, it would need to be shipped with the theme, and distros would need to patch gnome-themes ...)
20:34 <@benzea> ugly ...
20:36  * pacho needs to go for a moment
20:37 < vdepizzol> localize the icon theme seems not to be an option. So the change of the logo and the creation of a secondary one :/
20:38 <@benzea> well, I would guess it is just the start-here icon now
20:39 <@benzea> some neutral thing would be good, but I don't think it needs to get a "logo" status
20:39 < vdepizzol> sure :)
20:39 <@andreasn> agreed
20:39 <@benzea> ok, I guess the conclusion is that locale specific icons support would be nice to have :-)
20:39 <@andreasn> I'm not sure I agree
20:40 <@benzea> hm, then we just use a different icon as start-here?
20:40 -!- weld [~weld@p57A87E47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #gnome-art
20:40 <@andreasn> I would rather see that at least
20:41 <@benzea> ok, good
20:41 <@andreasn> so, 2.26 plans?
20:41 <@benzea> was about to say that :-)
20:42 <@benzea> we did punt a few thing from the 2.24 list over to 2.26
20:43 <@andreasn> http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap/Artwork - is this the most up to date one?
20:43 <@benzea> ah, thanks
20:43 <@benzea> did not find the page
20:44 <@benzea> I think so, I moved the dark/flat/compact theme stuff down when 2.24 was almost there
20:44 <@andreasn> the 256x256 and one canvas started, but I'm not sure what the time frame is
20:45 <@andreasn> if it's 2.26 or 2.28 material
20:45 <@benzea> should all icons get a 256x256 version?
20:45 <@benzea> sounds like a lot of work to me
20:45 <@andreasn> it is :)
20:46 <@benzea> I think it would be great if the ball gets rolling before 2.26, but wouldn't expect a huge coverage till then
20:46  * pacho has returned
20:47 <@benzea> and it is most important to have application icons in high res?
20:48 <@andreasn> those that would be used by GNOME Do and friends I would say
20:48 <@andreasn> or in Elisa Media Center
20:49 <@andreasn> there is also a use for it in a property dialog in Banshee, so the media-player icon is almost done for that
20:50 <@benzea> andreasn has the knowledge :-)
20:51 <@andreasn> well, anywhere where you need to display 64x64 and up basically
20:51 < nasam> What about svg'ing everything?
20:51 <@andreasn> well, it do scale up in gnome do already, but the lines grow all thick
20:52 <@benzea> isn't most svg already?
20:52  * vdepizzol need to go
20:52 < vdepizzol> até mais!
20:52 <@andreasn> but at least it don't look pixelated and broken (like it did with the pixmaps), but it still looks nicer with something aimed at higher resolution with finer lines and stuff
20:52 <@benzea> (but rendered into png)
20:53 <@andreasn> ah, yeah, or librsvg will go.... eeek
20:53 -!- vdepizzol [~vinicius@201.78.89.77] has quit [Ex-Chat]
20:53 <@andreasn> but yeah, we should move some more stuff from 2.24 to 2.26 on that page
20:54 <@benzea> or even later :-)
20:54 <@andreasn> yes, it feels silly to just put everything there
20:54 <@benzea> I don't expect the flat theme thing for 2.26
20:55 <@benzea> compact theme would be nice, and the dark theme might be nicer to do after we have color scheme support
20:56 <@andreasn> regarding cutting noise in "future release", kwwii, do you have a plan for the next release about that in ubuntu?
20:56 <@andreasn> because mark and mpt was both quite keen on the idea
20:57 <@andreasn> and fedora was looking into the menu issue at least: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/MenuIcons
20:57 < kwwii> andreasn: nope, we should be getting some stuff together very soon though
20:57 <@andreasn> ah, there it is: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469
20:57 < bugbot> Bug 557469: normal, Normal, ---, libgnome-maint@gnome.bugs, NEW, set menus_have_icons=false by default
20:58 <@andreasn> ah, right, the UDS is next month
20:58 < kwwii> andreasn: yepp, expect some stuff from us soon
20:58 <@andreasn> cool, cool
21:00 <@benzea> oh, I don't have that many plans for gtk-engines, maybe reorganizing the code to make it easier to maintain forks
21:01 <@benzea> not sure if Cimi has some plans, but I don't think he mentioned anything
21:03 <@benzea> I hope that guisef and maybe thos or Gyb will work on the colorscheme stuff :-)
21:03 -!- nunod [~nuno@bl5-185-31.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #gnome-art
21:03 <@benzea> hm, I guess that concludes this
21:04 <@andreasn> I think so, yes
21:04 <@benzea> should we discuss anything wrt. the GNOME 3.0 stuff?
21:04 < kwwii> cool, thanks everyone
21:04 < baze> if i may ask, how about pushing the gtk-css engine a bit for 2.26? its roadmap has some nice stuff...
21:04 <@benzea> I don't have anything in particular ...
21:05 <@benzea> baze: I am not sure, but I wouldn't expect it to be ready/stable enough till then
21:05 <@andreasn> me neither really, depends a lot on the owen shell and the plans regarding that and stuff
21:06 <@benzea> personally I am pretty sceptical of the implementation on top of the current GTK+ api (and hopefully we are going to fix that for GTK+ 3.0)
21:06 <@andreasn> I guess the theme hackfest will straighten out some of those question marks?
21:06 <@benzea> andreasn: yeah
21:06 <@benzea> theme hackfest?
21:06 <@andreasn> we should also look into organizing a Art Hackfest at some point next year
21:06 <@benzea> is there anything in bozen?
21:07 <@benzea> we are going to have an hackfest in february in dublin about the GTK+ theming stuff
21:07 <@andreasn> I think something around LGM would work well
21:07 <@benzea> when is that?
21:07 <@andreasn> in early May
21:08 <@benzea> I guess all you designers are going to be there anyways ;-)
21:09 <@andreasn> yes
21:09 <@andreasn> it's going to be in Canada this time around it seems
21:09 <@benzea> ok, any preference for a weekday/time for next month? otherwise, monday 8th, some time?
21:09 <@benzea> andreasn: oh, cool, where, if I may ask :-)
21:09 <@andreasn> montreal city ()
21:09 <@andreasn> (I think)
21:10 <@andreasn> same time next month works pretty good for me
21:10 <@benzea> eek, french ;-)
21:10  * Cimi wants RGBA
21:10 <@Cimi> RGBA is required if we want to push the look a step ahead
21:11 <@benzea> the other coast would have been nice, could have visited some people I know there ...
21:11 <@benzea> Cimi: yeah, well, long term :-)
21:11 <@Cimi> benzea, just someone should add that xsetting
21:12 <@Cimi> the tray no longer crashes
21:12 < qball> RGBA is very but slow on some pc's
21:12 <@Cimi> it will be optional
21:12 <@benzea> I think rgba is important for nice rounded corners mostly ...
21:12 <@andreasn> I better run now, thanks for your time everyone!
21:12 <@Cimi> and tooltips
21:13 <@Cimi> menus
21:13 <@Cimi> and a fancy murrine theme :)
21:13 <@benzea> yeah, thanks everyone for being around :-)