IRC Log for 0.12.0 Developer Meeting

   1 12:04 -!- sandy changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | 0.12.0 Roadmap Meeting in progress | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointTwelve/Plan
   2 12:05 -!- boyd|mtg is now known as boyd
   3 12:05 <@boyd> voila.  hey everyone
   4 12:05 <@sandy> :-)
   5 12:05 < Jc2k> :-)
   6 12:05  * boyd just needs to be a fly-on-the-wall anyway, right?
   7 12:05 <@boyd> you guys have it all under control :)
   8 12:06 <@sandy> okay, I'll go ahead and start then
   9 12:06 <@sandy> yeah, so boyd is simultaneously in two meetings right now
  10 12:06 <@boyd> if i get in trouble, i blame sandy 
  11 12:06 <@boyd> ;)
  12 12:06 <@sandy> okay, welcome to the planning meeting for Tomboy 0.12.0
  13 12:07 <@sandy> we're going to try to keep this short
  14 12:07 <@sandy> some initial thoughts are up here: http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointTwelve/Plan
  15 12:07 <@sandy> but basically, looking back on Tomboy 0.10.0, it's been a very successful release
  16 12:07 <@sandy> Notebooks are being well-received, lots of good bugfixes, new contributors
  17 12:07 <@sandy> I'd say a successful cycle
  18 12:08 <@boyd> +1
  19 12:08 <@sandy> Feature-wise Tomboy is looking pretty good
  20 12:08 <@sandy> boyd and I were talking, and we think now would be a good time to put a lot of focus into polish, bug-fixing, and being cross-platform
  21 12:08 <@boyd> ...in reverse order!  ;)
  22 12:08 <@sandy> we'd like the next Tomboy release to build and run on OS X and Windows
  23 12:08 <@boyd> (cross-platform first)
  24 12:09 <@sandy> yes...dramatic effect doesn't work as well in IRC
  25 12:09 < Jc2k> :)
  26 12:09 < sontek> So will the porting be done in trunk now instead of in a branch?
  27 12:09 <@sandy> sontek: definitely
  28 12:09 < Jc2k> re fuse + sync, and taking my conduit hat off, thoughts on moving to gio for sync
  29 12:10 <@sandy> stefanc has been working on a patch to port us to using gtkstatusicon instead of libegg
  30 12:10 < Jc2k> (conduit is moving to gio as it looks like its going to make our windows port a doddle)
  31 12:10 < stefanc> it needs some review now
  32 12:11 <@sandy> Jc2k: sync is definitely an issue
  33 12:11 <@sandy> there's no reason that we couldn't write sync backends that don't require fuse
  34 12:11 < Jc2k> conduit would commit to a windows port, but we don't have an osx machine between us so we are probably still out of the running..
  35 12:11 <@sandy> it's just not something we've ever done
  36 12:12 <@boyd> wrt conduit ... i'm still taking my stand that ...
  37 12:12 < Jc2k> boyd: nzjrs is writing the proposal right now
  38 12:12 < Jc2k> and i was pushing gio, not conduit :)
  39 12:12 <@boyd> i'd like to see it in GNOME proper before we (as Tomboy maintainers) don't plan to spend too much time on it
  40 12:12 <@sandy> another issue this cycle
  41 12:12 <@boyd> ...not to say that _some_ work on it couldn't be done
  42 12:12 <@boyd> but, you know
  43 12:13 <@sandy> is that boyd and I don't know how much time we'll have for development
  44 12:13 <@boyd> it's cool stuff ... you saw, i presume, that it was demo'd @ Brainshare
  45 12:13 <@boyd> Jc2k: ^^ ?
  46 12:13 < Jc2k> boyd: no?
  47 12:14 <@boyd> go check out the OPS video from Friday: http://www.novell.com/brainshare/general-sessions-2008.html
  48 12:14 <@boyd> Tasque, Tomboy, Conduit, Giver, etc.
  49 12:14 <@boyd> sorry ...
  50 12:14  * boyd stops hijacking the meeting
  51 12:14 < Jc2k> :)
  52 12:15 <@sandy> So from our point of view...
  53 12:15 <@sandy> considering that we can't commit to big feature work this cycle...
  54 12:15 <@sandy> if there are other features people want, we'll need to find outside contributors
  55 12:15 < stefanc> there are plenty of bugs to fix anyway
  56 12:15 <@sandy> yes
  57 12:15 < stefanc> :)
  58 12:15 <@sandy> I'd really like to focus on cross-platform work and bugfixing
  59 12:16 <@sandy> but if somebody shows up with an awesome feature
  60 12:16 <@sandy> we won't turn them down just because it's not in our plan
  61 12:16 <@sandy> that's all I meant :-)
  62 12:16 < stefanc> about cross platform...
  63 12:16 < stefanc> we need to bump up the gtk version
  64 12:16 <@sandy> stefanc: yes
  65 12:17 <@sandy> I think we're prepared to bump our requirement to gtk 2.10
  66 12:17 <@boyd> i'm less hesitant to bump up the gtk requirement than i have been in the past
  67 12:17 <@boyd> i think going cross-platform is a big step
  68 12:17 <@boyd> so whatever we need to do, i think it'll pay off in the end
  69 12:17 <@sandy> and distros that need 2.8 can patch Tomboy with the older 0.10.0-era code
  70 12:18 <@sandy> the other feature we discussed...
  71 12:18 <@sandy> is note attachments
  72 12:18 <@sandy> this has been requested a bunch
  73 12:18 <@sandy> and would help to support things like the sketching addin
  74 12:19 < jtickle> yay
  75 12:19 <@sandy> it would be cool if jtickle was interested in working on that...
  76 12:19 <@sandy> :-)
  77 12:19  * jtickle is interested
  78 12:19 <@boyd> jtickle: you da man!
  79 12:19 <@sandy> so given all of this
  80 12:19 <@sandy> being 100% cross-platform
  81 12:19 <@sandy> bumping the note XML to support attachments
  82 12:19 <@sandy> (or however we do it)
  83 12:20 <@sandy> we think that really puts Tomboy closer to 1.0 than anything else
  84 12:20 <@sandy> it's okay if we don't get there in once cycle
  85 12:20  * boyd votes for modifying the version to 1.0 if we hit cross-plat!
  86 12:20 <@sandy> yes, being 1.0 matters to non-Linux users
  87 12:21 <@sandy> so the big hurdles are attachments and sync imho
  88 12:21 <@sandy> and printing, maybe
  89 12:21 <@sandy> I don't know if we have anyone experienced with the gtkprint stuff...?
  90 12:21 <@sandy> but most of the cross-platform work should be very straightforward
  91 12:21 < Jc2k> is sync an addin?
  92 12:22 <@sandy> Jc2k: no
  93 12:22 <@sandy> each backend is an addin
  94 12:22 < Jc2k> would it be that bad if windows/osx people had to wait a cycle for cross platform sync?
  95 12:22 <@sandy> no, not at all
  96 12:22 <@sandy> but I wouldn't want to call that 1.0
  97 12:22 < stefanc> don't think so
  98 12:23 < Jc2k> that should probably be the fallback strategy then
  99 12:23 <@sandy> right
 100 12:23 <@sandy> that's why I'm saying that 1.0 might take more than one cycle
 101 12:23 < Jc2k> are you bumping the deps enough to depend on gio?
 102 12:24 < Jc2k> more to the point, does mono even have gio yet
 103 12:24 <@sandy> Jc2k: where does gio live?
 104 12:24 < Jc2k> its in glib
 105 12:24 <@sandy> 2.?
 106 12:24 < Jc2k> its brand spanking new, so the last stable glib
 107 12:24 <@sandy> okay
 108 12:24 <@sandy> we'd have to see
 109 12:24 <@sandy> bumping to 2.10 is easy
 110 12:25 <@sandy> going much higher might be an issue for distributors, I don't know
 111 12:25 < Jc2k> i mean it could be an optional dependency that allowed the cross platform fuseless sync backend
 112 12:25 <@sandy> true
 113 12:25 <@sandy> I thought gio used fuse?
 114 12:25 < Jc2k> nope
 115 12:25 < Jc2k> gvfs can use fuse
 116 12:25 < Jc2k> but gio on its own is just local files
 117 12:25 < sontek> mkesterner just released some bindings for gio in mono i think
 118 12:26 < sontek> kestner*
 119 12:26 < Jc2k> gvfs mounts all the gfvs backends via fuse at ~/.gvfs/foo
 120 12:26 < Jc2k> but its not a requirement
 121 12:26 <@sandy> Jc2k: but gio alone doesn't gives us free access to ssh or webdav or any of that
 122 12:26 < Jc2k> so fuse is accessing gvfs, rather than gvfs accessing fuse
 123 12:27 <@sandy> I guess we could ship with the local file sync addin, and let the users handle mounting their shares manually
 124 12:27 <@sandy> that shouldn't require any work
 125 12:27 < Jc2k> indeed
 126 12:27 < Jc2k> and we might be able to roll a gvfs for windows for ssh and such foo
 127 12:28 <@sandy> well, one thing is for sure.  I don't want to rush any sync work
 128 12:28 < Jc2k> indeed
 129 12:28 <@sandy> I feel like we rushed a bit on sync before
 130 12:28 <@sandy> my fault there
 131 12:28 < Jc2k> from conduit experience, its a very scary place to be
 132 12:28 < Jc2k> knowing that one false step...
 133 12:28 < Jc2k> and you nom on someones notes..
 134 12:28 <@sandy> :-)
 135 12:29 <@sandy> okay, so while everybody is here
 136 12:29 <@sandy> is anybody interested in any particular work this cycle?
 137 12:29 -!- robberba1on is now known as robberbaron
 138 12:30 <@sandy> stefanc: any particular cross-platform work interesting to you?
 139 12:30 < stefanc> yes
 140 12:30 < stefanc> killing libegg
 141 12:30 < stefanc> :)
 142 12:30 <@sandy> great, awesome
 143 12:30 < stefanc> libtomboy
 144 12:30 <@sandy> is anybody in love with the idea of rewriting our print code?
 145 12:30 < stefans> i could give it a try
 146 12:31 < stefans> but i have no experience with gtkprint so far
 147 12:31 <@sandy> stefans: cool!  There's a bug for it in bugzilla
 148 12:31 <@sandy> neither do we :-)
 149 12:31 <@sandy> no pressure on any of this, by the way...just trying to get a feel for what people might like to work on
 150 12:32 <@sandy> Is anybody else dying for some work but not sure where to start?
 151 12:33 < stefanc> I have a suggestion to make
 152 12:33 < stefanc> about bug 476980 - Kill the menubar in the search window
 153 12:33 < tomboybugbot`> Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476980 normal, Normal, ---, tomboy-maint@gnome.bugs, UNCONFIRMED, Kill the menubar in the search window
 154 12:33 < stefanc> we could rename the window
 155 12:33 < stefanc> to note browser
 156 12:33 < stefanc> or something like that
 157 12:34 < stefanc> and put more emphasis on note management
 158 12:34 < stefanc> and also keep the searching
 159 12:34 < jtickle> I think that's a good call, especially with the notebooks
 160 12:34 <@sandy> jtickle: I was just typing that
 161 12:34 < stefanc> right
 162 12:34 < stefanc> and maybe tagging?
 163 12:35 <@sandy> stefanc: what about tagging?
 164 12:35 < jtickle> yeah, although I get the impression notebooks take care of tagging, somewhat
 165 12:35 -!- cps|Zzz is now known as cps|out
 166 12:35 < stefanc> manage tags in there
 167 12:35 < stefanc> but yes jtickle is right
 168 12:35 <@sandy> we intentionally haven't exposed a UI for tagging, except for Notebooks
 169 12:36 <@sandy> that is, Notebooks are implemented on top of tagging code
 170 12:36 < jtickle> gotcha
 171 12:36 <@sandy> I think we'd like to stick with the Notebooks interface for now
 172 12:36 <@sandy> and see what users say...if we need to expose tagging
 173 12:37 <@sandy> we experimented a lot with tagging interfaces and found them a little cumbersome
 174 12:37 <@sandy> for this type of data
 175 12:37 < stefanc> notebooks are ok for me
 176 12:37 < stefanc> :)
 177 12:38 <@sandy> setfanc: can you put your ideas up on bug 476980?
 178 12:38 < stefanc> yes, I will
 179 12:38 <@sandy> I'll mention it in the meeting notes, too
 180 12:39 <@sandy> so I've covered all the "official" business I wanted to cover
 181 12:39 <@sandy> does anybody else have something they'd like to discuss?
 182 12:39 < stefanc> yes
 183 12:39 <@sandy> a favorite bug, or a feature that youthink is required?
 184 12:39 < stefanc> one more bug 
 185 12:39 < stefanc> :)
 186 12:39 < stefanc> bug 350990 - Creating a note with a single character as the title and changing the title breaks other notes
 187 12:39 < tomboybugbot`> Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 critical, Normal, ---, tomboy-maint@gnome.bugs, NEW, Creating a note with a single character as the title and changing the title breaks other notes
 188 12:39 < stefanc> i think this should really be fixed before 1.0
 189 12:39 <@sandy> so when I said we wanted to do a lot of bugfixing and polishing...that is exactly the sort of bug I had in mind
 190 12:39 <@sandy> stefanc: I agree completely
 191 12:40 <@sandy> we talked about this a lot in the last dev meeting
 192 12:40 <@sandy> maybe we should review the notes from that meeting (and maybe the log), and follow up on the bug itself
 193 12:40  * stefanc will do that
 194 12:40 <@sandy> that's probably the worst bug in Tomboy right now
 195 12:41 <@sandy> anybody else?
 196 12:43 <@sandy> Does anybody know about the custom PanelApplet code we have?
 197 12:43 < nightm4re> would it be a correct direction for sync to move in if someone were to create a webdav lib for mono?
 198 12:43 < nightm4re> i am thinking about windows support with that, as one of the things i'd like is to sync my notes from my windows machine at work to my lunix machine at home
 199 12:44 <@sandy> nightm4re: that would definitely help
 200 12:44 <@sandy> somebody would have to write the sync backend that used the webdav lib
 201 12:44 < Jc2k> it would be more sustainable to help with gvfs on windows though..
 202 12:46 < nightm4re> are the dependancies for gvfs on windows numerous however? 
 203 12:48 < Jc2k> nightm4re: it was written to suck a factor of eleventy billion less than gnomevfs
 204 12:48 <@sandy> so then hopefully it's portable?
 205 12:48 < Jc2k> hopefully
 206 12:49 <@sandy> well, needing gvfs ported to windows and gvfs bindings for Mono is a lot, and might not be ready for us in time
 207 12:49 < Jc2k> true
 208 12:49 < Jc2k> wait
 209 12:49 < Jc2k> no
 210 12:49 < Jc2k> you don't need gvfs bindings afaik
 211 12:49 < Jc2k> i could be wrong
 212 12:49 <@sandy> just use gio?
 213 12:49 < Jc2k> yes
 214 12:50 <@sandy> cool
 215 12:50 < Jc2k> i think the point of gio is that it has plugabble backends
 216 12:50 <@sandy> it would be nice if somebody researched this
 217 12:50 < Jc2k> and gvfs is kind of a manager?
 218 12:50 <@sandy> to understand how it all fits together
 219 12:50 < Jc2k> indeed
 220 12:51 <@sandy> if gio is the supported gtk-like way access remote shares, we should consider using it, for sure
 221 12:51 < Jc2k> the trouble is the few mailing list posts on its internals are hidden by "here is ubuntu with gio and gvfs enabled nautilus!!" type blogs
 222 12:52 <@sandy> :-)
 223 12:52 < Jc2k> im learning about the python bindings by enumerating them in a python interpreter :-)
 224 12:53 <@sandy> so it seems everyone's had their say?
 225 12:53 <@sandy> jtickle: attachments are basically in your hands
 226 12:53 < Jc2k> indeed
 227 12:53 < jtickle> sweet
 228 12:54 <@sandy> if you get to it, that's great...if not, no worries
 229 12:54 <@sandy> though we may put off 1.0 for that sort of thing
 230 12:54 < jtickle> if anyone has a pet module that might use attachments and would like a say in how it's done, get in touch with me soon!
 231 12:54 <@sandy> jtickle: I'm sure you'll get plenty of people dying to test it out
 232 12:54 < jtickle> heh indeed, I'm pretty excited about it
 233 12:54 <@sandy> yeah, I suspect just tossing binary stuff in the XML might not be the best way, but afaik that's how MS does it with resource files
 234 12:55 < jtickle> yeah
 235 12:55 < jtickle> we should probably discuss that sometime actually
 236 12:55 <@sandy> for sure
 237 12:55 < jtickle> boyd and I did briefly at the Summit
 238 12:55 < jtickle> but it was more of a "that would be nice someday" instead of a "let's hop on it"
 239 12:55 <@sandy> right
 240 12:56 <@sandy> well, it's the only feature we really care about right now
 241 12:56 < jtickle> heh awesome
 242 12:56 <@sandy> so when porting work gets boring I'm sure it'll get lots of attention
 243 12:56 <@sandy> okay, so to sum up
 244 12:57 <@sandy> 1. Next release will focus on being cross-platform, fixing bugs, and polish
 245 12:57 <@sandy> 2. We'd like to get note attachments in as well
 246 12:57 <@sandy> 3. stefanc is interested in working on various porting pieces, like gtkstatusicon
 247 12:57 <@sandy> 4. stefans is interested in working on printing
 248 12:58 <@sandy> 5. seems that jtickle and nightm4re are interested in figuring out how sync might work on Windows?
 249 12:58 <@sandy> sorry, typo
 250 12:58 <@sandy> Jc2k is interestd in sync, I meant
 251 12:59 <@sandy> 6. and jtickle is our attachments hero
 252 12:59 <@sandy> I'll update the wiki with this info and a log
 253 12:59 <@sandy> and mail something out to the list
 254 12:59 < Jc2k> sandy: well, gvfs. obviously my goals are mostly aligned with the conduit port to windows :)
 255 13:00 < Jc2k> if we can get gvfs running on windows it would be good for conduit and tomboy :)
 256 13:00 <@sandy> Jc2k: well, since you'll be looking at that for Conduit, don't be surprised if we bug you for how we might use it :-)
 257 13:00 < Jc2k> im really bogged down this next month or so tho, and ive not been esp active on the conduit front for a while
 258 13:00 <@sandy> 7. Once all of this work is done, and we're really cross-platform on Mac and Windows, we should call ourselves Tomboy 1.0
 259 13:01 <@sandy> Jc2k: no worries, I expect sync will be one of the last areas we look at for porting
 260 13:01 < Jc2k> indeed
 261 13:01 <@sandy> Thanks everybody for joining us
 262 13:01 <@sandy> we'll be following up on the mailing list and in bug reports
 263 13:02 <@sandy> and if you have any thoughts or think there's something we should be working on, don't hesitate to email your suggestion to the list
 264 13:02 <@sandy> chances are we wont' have any summer of code work this year
 265 13:02 <@sandy> I didn't post any ideas
 266 13:03 <@sandy> but I think that makes sense considering the work we'll be doing this cycle
 267 13:03 -!- sandy changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy | Latest stable release is 0.10.0
 268 13:07 -!- stefans [~stefan@chello212186106246.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ex-Chat]
 269 13:09 < jtickle> good meeting everyone :-D
 270 13:09 < jtickle> I'll kick off a discussion on attachments on the list when I get home
 271 13:10 <@sandy> jtickle: sweet
 272 13:10 < slomo__> hey, probably trivial bug to fix for you :)
 273 13:10 < slomo__> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/207910
 274 13:10 < slomo__> or shall i forward this to bugzilla?
 275 13:11 <@sandy> slomo__: yeah, I'd like to see this in bugzilla
 276 13:11 < slomo__> ok ;)
 277 13:11 <@sandy> bit of an oversight
 278 13:12 < slomo__> tomboybugbot` should write something about it in a few seconds ;)
 279 13:12 < tomboybugbot`> slomo__: Error: "should" is not a valid command.
 280 13:13 <@sandy> lol
 281 13:13 < slomo__> sandy: are you going to use gnome-settings-daemon via dbus for keybindings or do you have other plans?
 282 13:14 <@sandy> slomo__: on GNOME, we should probably switch to that
 283 13:14 <@sandy> it's kind of part of the cross-platform work
 284 13:14 <@sandy> to get rid of native code
 285 13:14 < slomo__> ok, good :)
 286 13:15 <@sandy> unfortunately in this case, we'll still have to write different code for Windows and Mac
 287 13:15 < slomo__> when you've branched for 0.11 i'll probably drop you a patch converting the contrast stuff from C to C# ;)
 288 13:15 <@sandy> slomo__: we branched
 289 13:15 < slomo__> sure, until gtk finally gets something for this
 290 13:15 <@sandy> trunk is open for new stuff
 291 13:15 < slomo__> oh, great :)
 292 13:15 <@sandy> that would be really helpful
 293 13:15 < slomo__> which gtk# version is the newest you can depend on?
 294 13:15 < slomo__> 2.10.1 i guess for the tray icon stuff
 295 13:15 < slomo__> or even 2.12?
 296 13:16 <@sandy> 2.10.x
 297 13:16 < slomo__> ok
 298 13:16 <@sandy> I'd need somebody to argue for a newer version
 299 13:16 <@sandy> we just try to keep out deps low is all
 300 13:16 <@sandy> if there's a compelling reason to use 2.12, please please let us know
 301 13:16 < slomo__> that's good :) i don't know what parts of 2.12 would be useful for tomboy
 302 13:16 <@sandy> k
 303 13:24 -!- jtickle [~jtickle@ip-152010152154.ess.appstate.edu] has quit [Ex-Chat]
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Apps/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointTwelve/Log (last edited 2013-08-09 00:14:58 by WilliamJonMcCann)