IRC Log for 0.12.0 Developer Meeting
1 12:04 -!- sandy changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | 0.12.0 Roadmap Meeting in progress | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointTwelve/Plan
2 12:05 -!- boyd|mtg is now known as boyd
3 12:05 <@boyd> voila. hey everyone
4 12:05 <@sandy> :-)
5 12:05 < Jc2k> :-)
6 12:05 * boyd just needs to be a fly-on-the-wall anyway, right?
7 12:05 <@boyd> you guys have it all under control :)
8 12:06 <@sandy> okay, I'll go ahead and start then
9 12:06 <@sandy> yeah, so boyd is simultaneously in two meetings right now
10 12:06 <@boyd> if i get in trouble, i blame sandy
11 12:06 <@boyd> ;)
12 12:06 <@sandy> okay, welcome to the planning meeting for Tomboy 0.12.0
13 12:07 <@sandy> we're going to try to keep this short
14 12:07 <@sandy> some initial thoughts are up here: http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy/DevMeetingZeroPointTwelve/Plan
15 12:07 <@sandy> but basically, looking back on Tomboy 0.10.0, it's been a very successful release
16 12:07 <@sandy> Notebooks are being well-received, lots of good bugfixes, new contributors
17 12:07 <@sandy> I'd say a successful cycle
18 12:08 <@boyd> +1
19 12:08 <@sandy> Feature-wise Tomboy is looking pretty good
20 12:08 <@sandy> boyd and I were talking, and we think now would be a good time to put a lot of focus into polish, bug-fixing, and being cross-platform
21 12:08 <@boyd> ...in reverse order! ;)
22 12:08 <@sandy> we'd like the next Tomboy release to build and run on OS X and Windows
23 12:08 <@boyd> (cross-platform first)
24 12:09 <@sandy> yes...dramatic effect doesn't work as well in IRC
25 12:09 < Jc2k> :)
26 12:09 < sontek> So will the porting be done in trunk now instead of in a branch?
27 12:09 <@sandy> sontek: definitely
28 12:09 < Jc2k> re fuse + sync, and taking my conduit hat off, thoughts on moving to gio for sync
29 12:10 <@sandy> stefanc has been working on a patch to port us to using gtkstatusicon instead of libegg
30 12:10 < Jc2k> (conduit is moving to gio as it looks like its going to make our windows port a doddle)
31 12:10 < stefanc> it needs some review now
32 12:11 <@sandy> Jc2k: sync is definitely an issue
33 12:11 <@sandy> there's no reason that we couldn't write sync backends that don't require fuse
34 12:11 < Jc2k> conduit would commit to a windows port, but we don't have an osx machine between us so we are probably still out of the running..
35 12:11 <@sandy> it's just not something we've ever done
36 12:12 <@boyd> wrt conduit ... i'm still taking my stand that ...
37 12:12 < Jc2k> boyd: nzjrs is writing the proposal right now
38 12:12 < Jc2k> and i was pushing gio, not conduit :)
39 12:12 <@boyd> i'd like to see it in GNOME proper before we (as Tomboy maintainers) don't plan to spend too much time on it
40 12:12 <@sandy> another issue this cycle
41 12:12 <@boyd> ...not to say that _some_ work on it couldn't be done
42 12:12 <@boyd> but, you know
43 12:13 <@sandy> is that boyd and I don't know how much time we'll have for development
44 12:13 <@boyd> it's cool stuff ... you saw, i presume, that it was demo'd @ Brainshare
45 12:13 <@boyd> Jc2k: ^^ ?
46 12:13 < Jc2k> boyd: no?
47 12:14 <@boyd> go check out the OPS video from Friday: http://www.novell.com/brainshare/general-sessions-2008.html
48 12:14 <@boyd> Tasque, Tomboy, Conduit, Giver, etc.
49 12:14 <@boyd> sorry ...
50 12:14 * boyd stops hijacking the meeting
51 12:14 < Jc2k> :)
52 12:15 <@sandy> So from our point of view...
53 12:15 <@sandy> considering that we can't commit to big feature work this cycle...
54 12:15 <@sandy> if there are other features people want, we'll need to find outside contributors
55 12:15 < stefanc> there are plenty of bugs to fix anyway
56 12:15 <@sandy> yes
57 12:15 < stefanc> :)
58 12:15 <@sandy> I'd really like to focus on cross-platform work and bugfixing
59 12:16 <@sandy> but if somebody shows up with an awesome feature
60 12:16 <@sandy> we won't turn them down just because it's not in our plan
61 12:16 <@sandy> that's all I meant :-)
62 12:16 < stefanc> about cross platform...
63 12:16 < stefanc> we need to bump up the gtk version
64 12:16 <@sandy> stefanc: yes
65 12:17 <@sandy> I think we're prepared to bump our requirement to gtk 2.10
66 12:17 <@boyd> i'm less hesitant to bump up the gtk requirement than i have been in the past
67 12:17 <@boyd> i think going cross-platform is a big step
68 12:17 <@boyd> so whatever we need to do, i think it'll pay off in the end
69 12:17 <@sandy> and distros that need 2.8 can patch Tomboy with the older 0.10.0-era code
70 12:18 <@sandy> the other feature we discussed...
71 12:18 <@sandy> is note attachments
72 12:18 <@sandy> this has been requested a bunch
73 12:18 <@sandy> and would help to support things like the sketching addin
74 12:19 < jtickle> yay
75 12:19 <@sandy> it would be cool if jtickle was interested in working on that...
76 12:19 <@sandy> :-)
77 12:19 * jtickle is interested
78 12:19 <@boyd> jtickle: you da man!
79 12:19 <@sandy> so given all of this
80 12:19 <@sandy> being 100% cross-platform
81 12:19 <@sandy> bumping the note XML to support attachments
82 12:19 <@sandy> (or however we do it)
83 12:20 <@sandy> we think that really puts Tomboy closer to 1.0 than anything else
84 12:20 <@sandy> it's okay if we don't get there in once cycle
85 12:20 * boyd votes for modifying the version to 1.0 if we hit cross-plat!
86 12:20 <@sandy> yes, being 1.0 matters to non-Linux users
87 12:21 <@sandy> so the big hurdles are attachments and sync imho
88 12:21 <@sandy> and printing, maybe
89 12:21 <@sandy> I don't know if we have anyone experienced with the gtkprint stuff...?
90 12:21 <@sandy> but most of the cross-platform work should be very straightforward
91 12:21 < Jc2k> is sync an addin?
92 12:22 <@sandy> Jc2k: no
93 12:22 <@sandy> each backend is an addin
94 12:22 < Jc2k> would it be that bad if windows/osx people had to wait a cycle for cross platform sync?
95 12:22 <@sandy> no, not at all
96 12:22 <@sandy> but I wouldn't want to call that 1.0
97 12:22 < stefanc> don't think so
98 12:23 < Jc2k> that should probably be the fallback strategy then
99 12:23 <@sandy> right
100 12:23 <@sandy> that's why I'm saying that 1.0 might take more than one cycle
101 12:23 < Jc2k> are you bumping the deps enough to depend on gio?
102 12:24 < Jc2k> more to the point, does mono even have gio yet
103 12:24 <@sandy> Jc2k: where does gio live?
104 12:24 < Jc2k> its in glib
105 12:24 <@sandy> 2.?
106 12:24 < Jc2k> its brand spanking new, so the last stable glib
107 12:24 <@sandy> okay
108 12:24 <@sandy> we'd have to see
109 12:24 <@sandy> bumping to 2.10 is easy
110 12:25 <@sandy> going much higher might be an issue for distributors, I don't know
111 12:25 < Jc2k> i mean it could be an optional dependency that allowed the cross platform fuseless sync backend
112 12:25 <@sandy> true
113 12:25 <@sandy> I thought gio used fuse?
114 12:25 < Jc2k> nope
115 12:25 < Jc2k> gvfs can use fuse
116 12:25 < Jc2k> but gio on its own is just local files
117 12:25 < sontek> mkesterner just released some bindings for gio in mono i think
118 12:26 < sontek> kestner*
119 12:26 < Jc2k> gvfs mounts all the gfvs backends via fuse at ~/.gvfs/foo
120 12:26 < Jc2k> but its not a requirement
121 12:26 <@sandy> Jc2k: but gio alone doesn't gives us free access to ssh or webdav or any of that
122 12:26 < Jc2k> so fuse is accessing gvfs, rather than gvfs accessing fuse
123 12:27 <@sandy> I guess we could ship with the local file sync addin, and let the users handle mounting their shares manually
124 12:27 <@sandy> that shouldn't require any work
125 12:27 < Jc2k> indeed
126 12:27 < Jc2k> and we might be able to roll a gvfs for windows for ssh and such foo
127 12:28 <@sandy> well, one thing is for sure. I don't want to rush any sync work
128 12:28 < Jc2k> indeed
129 12:28 <@sandy> I feel like we rushed a bit on sync before
130 12:28 <@sandy> my fault there
131 12:28 < Jc2k> from conduit experience, its a very scary place to be
132 12:28 < Jc2k> knowing that one false step...
133 12:28 < Jc2k> and you nom on someones notes..
134 12:28 <@sandy> :-)
135 12:29 <@sandy> okay, so while everybody is here
136 12:29 <@sandy> is anybody interested in any particular work this cycle?
137 12:29 -!- robberba1on is now known as robberbaron
138 12:30 <@sandy> stefanc: any particular cross-platform work interesting to you?
139 12:30 < stefanc> yes
140 12:30 < stefanc> killing libegg
141 12:30 < stefanc> :)
142 12:30 <@sandy> great, awesome
143 12:30 < stefanc> libtomboy
144 12:30 <@sandy> is anybody in love with the idea of rewriting our print code?
145 12:30 < stefans> i could give it a try
146 12:31 < stefans> but i have no experience with gtkprint so far
147 12:31 <@sandy> stefans: cool! There's a bug for it in bugzilla
148 12:31 <@sandy> neither do we :-)
149 12:31 <@sandy> no pressure on any of this, by the way...just trying to get a feel for what people might like to work on
150 12:32 <@sandy> Is anybody else dying for some work but not sure where to start?
151 12:33 < stefanc> I have a suggestion to make
152 12:33 < stefanc> about bug 476980 - Kill the menubar in the search window
153 12:33 < tomboybugbot`> Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476980 normal, Normal, ---, tomboy-maint@gnome.bugs, UNCONFIRMED, Kill the menubar in the search window
154 12:33 < stefanc> we could rename the window
155 12:33 < stefanc> to note browser
156 12:33 < stefanc> or something like that
157 12:34 < stefanc> and put more emphasis on note management
158 12:34 < stefanc> and also keep the searching
159 12:34 < jtickle> I think that's a good call, especially with the notebooks
160 12:34 <@sandy> jtickle: I was just typing that
161 12:34 < stefanc> right
162 12:34 < stefanc> and maybe tagging?
163 12:35 <@sandy> stefanc: what about tagging?
164 12:35 < jtickle> yeah, although I get the impression notebooks take care of tagging, somewhat
165 12:35 -!- cps|Zzz is now known as cps|out
166 12:35 < stefanc> manage tags in there
167 12:35 < stefanc> but yes jtickle is right
168 12:35 <@sandy> we intentionally haven't exposed a UI for tagging, except for Notebooks
169 12:36 <@sandy> that is, Notebooks are implemented on top of tagging code
170 12:36 < jtickle> gotcha
171 12:36 <@sandy> I think we'd like to stick with the Notebooks interface for now
172 12:36 <@sandy> and see what users say...if we need to expose tagging
173 12:37 <@sandy> we experimented a lot with tagging interfaces and found them a little cumbersome
174 12:37 <@sandy> for this type of data
175 12:37 < stefanc> notebooks are ok for me
176 12:37 < stefanc> :)
177 12:38 <@sandy> setfanc: can you put your ideas up on bug 476980?
178 12:38 < stefanc> yes, I will
179 12:38 <@sandy> I'll mention it in the meeting notes, too
180 12:39 <@sandy> so I've covered all the "official" business I wanted to cover
181 12:39 <@sandy> does anybody else have something they'd like to discuss?
182 12:39 < stefanc> yes
183 12:39 <@sandy> a favorite bug, or a feature that youthink is required?
184 12:39 < stefanc> one more bug
185 12:39 < stefanc> :)
186 12:39 < stefanc> bug 350990 - Creating a note with a single character as the title and changing the title breaks other notes
187 12:39 < tomboybugbot`> Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=350990 critical, Normal, ---, tomboy-maint@gnome.bugs, NEW, Creating a note with a single character as the title and changing the title breaks other notes
188 12:39 < stefanc> i think this should really be fixed before 1.0
189 12:39 <@sandy> so when I said we wanted to do a lot of bugfixing and polishing...that is exactly the sort of bug I had in mind
190 12:39 <@sandy> stefanc: I agree completely
191 12:40 <@sandy> we talked about this a lot in the last dev meeting
192 12:40 <@sandy> maybe we should review the notes from that meeting (and maybe the log), and follow up on the bug itself
193 12:40 * stefanc will do that
194 12:40 <@sandy> that's probably the worst bug in Tomboy right now
195 12:41 <@sandy> anybody else?
196 12:43 <@sandy> Does anybody know about the custom PanelApplet code we have?
197 12:43 < nightm4re> would it be a correct direction for sync to move in if someone were to create a webdav lib for mono?
198 12:43 < nightm4re> i am thinking about windows support with that, as one of the things i'd like is to sync my notes from my windows machine at work to my lunix machine at home
199 12:44 <@sandy> nightm4re: that would definitely help
200 12:44 <@sandy> somebody would have to write the sync backend that used the webdav lib
201 12:44 < Jc2k> it would be more sustainable to help with gvfs on windows though..
202 12:46 < nightm4re> are the dependancies for gvfs on windows numerous however?
203 12:48 < Jc2k> nightm4re: it was written to suck a factor of eleventy billion less than gnomevfs
204 12:48 <@sandy> so then hopefully it's portable?
205 12:48 < Jc2k> hopefully
206 12:49 <@sandy> well, needing gvfs ported to windows and gvfs bindings for Mono is a lot, and might not be ready for us in time
207 12:49 < Jc2k> true
208 12:49 < Jc2k> wait
209 12:49 < Jc2k> no
210 12:49 < Jc2k> you don't need gvfs bindings afaik
211 12:49 < Jc2k> i could be wrong
212 12:49 <@sandy> just use gio?
213 12:49 < Jc2k> yes
214 12:50 <@sandy> cool
215 12:50 < Jc2k> i think the point of gio is that it has plugabble backends
216 12:50 <@sandy> it would be nice if somebody researched this
217 12:50 < Jc2k> and gvfs is kind of a manager?
218 12:50 <@sandy> to understand how it all fits together
219 12:50 < Jc2k> indeed
220 12:51 <@sandy> if gio is the supported gtk-like way access remote shares, we should consider using it, for sure
221 12:51 < Jc2k> the trouble is the few mailing list posts on its internals are hidden by "here is ubuntu with gio and gvfs enabled nautilus!!" type blogs
222 12:52 <@sandy> :-)
223 12:52 < Jc2k> im learning about the python bindings by enumerating them in a python interpreter :-)
224 12:53 <@sandy> so it seems everyone's had their say?
225 12:53 <@sandy> jtickle: attachments are basically in your hands
226 12:53 < Jc2k> indeed
227 12:53 < jtickle> sweet
228 12:54 <@sandy> if you get to it, that's great...if not, no worries
229 12:54 <@sandy> though we may put off 1.0 for that sort of thing
230 12:54 < jtickle> if anyone has a pet module that might use attachments and would like a say in how it's done, get in touch with me soon!
231 12:54 <@sandy> jtickle: I'm sure you'll get plenty of people dying to test it out
232 12:54 < jtickle> heh indeed, I'm pretty excited about it
233 12:54 <@sandy> yeah, I suspect just tossing binary stuff in the XML might not be the best way, but afaik that's how MS does it with resource files
234 12:55 < jtickle> yeah
235 12:55 < jtickle> we should probably discuss that sometime actually
236 12:55 <@sandy> for sure
237 12:55 < jtickle> boyd and I did briefly at the Summit
238 12:55 < jtickle> but it was more of a "that would be nice someday" instead of a "let's hop on it"
239 12:55 <@sandy> right
240 12:56 <@sandy> well, it's the only feature we really care about right now
241 12:56 < jtickle> heh awesome
242 12:56 <@sandy> so when porting work gets boring I'm sure it'll get lots of attention
243 12:56 <@sandy> okay, so to sum up
244 12:57 <@sandy> 1. Next release will focus on being cross-platform, fixing bugs, and polish
245 12:57 <@sandy> 2. We'd like to get note attachments in as well
246 12:57 <@sandy> 3. stefanc is interested in working on various porting pieces, like gtkstatusicon
247 12:57 <@sandy> 4. stefans is interested in working on printing
248 12:58 <@sandy> 5. seems that jtickle and nightm4re are interested in figuring out how sync might work on Windows?
249 12:58 <@sandy> sorry, typo
250 12:58 <@sandy> Jc2k is interestd in sync, I meant
251 12:59 <@sandy> 6. and jtickle is our attachments hero
252 12:59 <@sandy> I'll update the wiki with this info and a log
253 12:59 <@sandy> and mail something out to the list
254 12:59 < Jc2k> sandy: well, gvfs. obviously my goals are mostly aligned with the conduit port to windows :)
255 13:00 < Jc2k> if we can get gvfs running on windows it would be good for conduit and tomboy :)
256 13:00 <@sandy> Jc2k: well, since you'll be looking at that for Conduit, don't be surprised if we bug you for how we might use it :-)
257 13:00 < Jc2k> im really bogged down this next month or so tho, and ive not been esp active on the conduit front for a while
258 13:00 <@sandy> 7. Once all of this work is done, and we're really cross-platform on Mac and Windows, we should call ourselves Tomboy 1.0
259 13:01 <@sandy> Jc2k: no worries, I expect sync will be one of the last areas we look at for porting
260 13:01 < Jc2k> indeed
261 13:01 <@sandy> Thanks everybody for joining us
262 13:01 <@sandy> we'll be following up on the mailing list and in bug reports
263 13:02 <@sandy> and if you have any thoughts or think there's something we should be working on, don't hesitate to email your suggestion to the list
264 13:02 <@sandy> chances are we wont' have any summer of code work this year
265 13:02 <@sandy> I didn't post any ideas
266 13:03 <@sandy> but I think that makes sense considering the work we'll be doing this cycle
267 13:03 -!- sandy changed the topic of #tomboy to: Tomboy Notes | http://live.gnome.org/Tomboy | Latest stable release is 0.10.0
268 13:07 -!- stefans [~stefan@chello212186106246.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ex-Chat]
269 13:09 < jtickle> good meeting everyone :-D
270 13:09 < jtickle> I'll kick off a discussion on attachments on the list when I get home
271 13:10 <@sandy> jtickle: sweet
272 13:10 < slomo__> hey, probably trivial bug to fix for you :)
273 13:10 < slomo__> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomboy/+bug/207910
274 13:10 < slomo__> or shall i forward this to bugzilla?
275 13:11 <@sandy> slomo__: yeah, I'd like to see this in bugzilla
276 13:11 < slomo__> ok ;)
277 13:11 <@sandy> bit of an oversight
278 13:12 < slomo__> tomboybugbot` should write something about it in a few seconds ;)
279 13:12 < tomboybugbot`> slomo__: Error: "should" is not a valid command.
280 13:13 <@sandy> lol
281 13:13 < slomo__> sandy: are you going to use gnome-settings-daemon via dbus for keybindings or do you have other plans?
282 13:14 <@sandy> slomo__: on GNOME, we should probably switch to that
283 13:14 <@sandy> it's kind of part of the cross-platform work
284 13:14 <@sandy> to get rid of native code
285 13:14 < slomo__> ok, good :)
286 13:15 <@sandy> unfortunately in this case, we'll still have to write different code for Windows and Mac
287 13:15 < slomo__> when you've branched for 0.11 i'll probably drop you a patch converting the contrast stuff from C to C# ;)
288 13:15 <@sandy> slomo__: we branched
289 13:15 < slomo__> sure, until gtk finally gets something for this
290 13:15 <@sandy> trunk is open for new stuff
291 13:15 < slomo__> oh, great :)
292 13:15 <@sandy> that would be really helpful
293 13:15 < slomo__> which gtk# version is the newest you can depend on?
294 13:15 < slomo__> 2.10.1 i guess for the tray icon stuff
295 13:15 < slomo__> or even 2.12?
296 13:16 <@sandy> 2.10.x
297 13:16 < slomo__> ok
298 13:16 <@sandy> I'd need somebody to argue for a newer version
299 13:16 <@sandy> we just try to keep out deps low is all
300 13:16 <@sandy> if there's a compelling reason to use 2.12, please please let us know
301 13:16 < slomo__> that's good :) i don't know what parts of 2.12 would be useful for tomboy
302 13:16 <@sandy> k
303 13:24 -!- jtickle [~jtickle@ip-152010152154.ess.appstate.edu] has quit [Ex-Chat]
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