1 16:04:06 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:04:06 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Feb 13 16:04:06 2014 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:04:06 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:04:14 <API> #topic 5-minutes of margin
   5 16:05:02 * clown sits up and pays attention
   6 16:06:04 <API> and I think that the five margin is over
   7 16:06:11 <API> five minute margin I mean
   8 16:06:16 <API> #topic Progress towards 3.12
   9 16:06:37 <API> well, I don't have too much to report myself
  10 16:06:41 <clown> I could describe some movement on the mag preferences front.
  11 16:06:45 <API> I think that clown was the one more involved with aday
  12 16:06:52 <API> so, clown , could you summarize?
  13 16:07:13 <clown> #info Joseph met with Allan to discuss Allan's proposal for the new zoom prefs dialogs.
  14 16:07:20 <clown> #info The mockups are here:
  15 16:07:30 <clown> #info https://raw.github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-mockups/master/system-settings/universal-access/zoom-and-filters.png
  16 16:07:47 <clown> #info Note that those are pictures.
  17 16:08:23 <clown> #info Next steps are to turn that into Glade files, and then modify the control center code to make it change the gsettings as appropriate.
  18 16:08:45 <clown> #info Joseph was CC'ed on an email from Allan to magpie asking her if she could start that process.
  19 16:09:13 <clown> I should reply, but I presonally think this is ambitious for the time frame — I wish this had started two months ago.
  20 16:09:36 <clown> questions?
  21 16:10:06 * joanie pulls up release schedule
  22 16:10:13 <API> well, I assume that two months ago nobody was available
  23 16:10:25 <clown> #info  note that the crosshairs UI does *not* change (that's why the mockups do not show it).
  24 16:10:25 <API> unless you need to meet face-to-face to trigger this
  25 16:10:28 <joanie> 3.11.90 beta release is 17 Feb
  26 16:10:41 <joanie> well the tarball due date is 17 feb
  27 16:11:01 <clown> Yes, joanie, but aday did say it might be pushed back a week due to wayland.
  28 16:11:11 <joanie> oh that's ui freeze too
  29 16:11:12 <clown> maybe API knows more?
  30 16:11:26 <joanie> yeah, like this is gonna happen </snark>
  31 16:11:27 <API> clown, oh well, I could mention it as 3.12 stuff
  32 16:11:38 <joanie> (this == in time for ui freeze)
  33 16:12:04 <API> #info during previous weeks, release team was discussing pushing the release a week due wayland, but finally the schedule will not be changed
  34 16:12:32 <clown> I know from experience that translating nicely laid out pictures of UI into Glade files can be a long process...
  35 16:12:50 <clown> API, thanks for that.
  36 16:12:50 * joanie nods
  37 16:12:54 <API> np
  38 16:13:17 <API> well, this work needs to be done
  39 16:13:22 <API> so as they are on the path
  40 16:13:39 <API> when finished we can discuss in which release it is included
  41 16:13:45 <API> in any case, I don't have more questions
  42 16:13:49 <API> clown, anything else?
  43 16:14:04 <clown> just to point out one thing.
  44 16:14:41 <clown> The dialog has a checkbox for supporting focus/caret tracking.  It's on the left side, labelled "Keep keyboard focus in view".
  45 16:15:00 <clown> That's pretty sparse, but better than nothing.
  46 16:15:21 <clown> That is, there is nothing to support the various modes.
  47 16:15:30 <API> hmm
  48 16:15:38 <clown> push vs. proportional vs. centered vs none.
  49 16:15:45 <API> so is always push or none?
  50 16:15:58 <clown> aday was considering using exactly the same mode as for mouse tracking.
  51 16:16:11 <clown> that is, if mouse is set to centered, then focus/caret is also centered.
  52 16:16:46 <API> hmm, why?
  53 16:16:51 <API> just to avoid too many options?
  54 16:17:08 <API> seems a simplification without too much rationale
  55 16:17:27 <clown> joanie and I said they should be independent, but aday wanted use cases to show that end users want that degree of flexibility.
  56 16:17:39 <joanie> and we tried to provide some
  57 16:17:51 <joanie> but oh well
  58 16:18:00 <clown> I am going to ask our resident expert about that, but that won't happen until tomorrow (she's not in the office until then).
  59 16:18:25 <clown> but, if you know of any such use cases, then let us know.
  60 16:18:41 <clown> Here is one joanie remembered:  http://pastebin.ca/2638664
  61 16:18:51 <clown> But, that didn't convince aday.
  62 16:18:56 <joanie> the thought occurred to me that we can send an email to the gnome-accessibility list stating something like
  63 16:18:57 <jjmarin> We're lucky clown has experts in his office :-)
  64 16:19:06 <joanie> the Design Team believes these should be joined
  65 16:19:10 <joanie> any objections?
  66 16:19:20 <clown> what should be joined?
  67 16:19:32 <joanie> the type of alignment
  68 16:19:35 <joanie> push/centered
  69 16:19:39 <clown> Yes, I could also ask Robert Cole — our primary magnifier user.
  70 16:19:48 <joanie> he's on the list I think
  71 16:19:54 <clown> yes, he is.
  72 16:19:59 <joanie> this would give stakeholders the ability to chime in
  73 16:20:09 <clown> indeed.
  74 16:20:24 <joanie> and maybe they'd be more "believable"
  75 16:20:30 * API don't want to interrupt, but just in case, that email ideas looks good to API
  76 16:21:06 <clown> well, I am an ocasionaly magnifier user, and I don't want them to be the same.  (I want push for mouse and caret, but centered for focus).
  77 16:21:23 <joanie> clown: you're not believable though :P
  78 16:21:28 <API> so clown , you are not a use case?
  79 16:21:35 <clown> yeah, I know.  I'm toxic.
  80 16:21:45 <API> probably in order to be a use case you need a degree
  81 16:21:47 <joanie> it honestly was a tad surreal
  82 16:21:47 <API> ehem
  83 16:21:53 <API> so, volunteers to that email¿
  84 16:21:55 <API> ?
  85 16:22:05 <API> s/to/for
  86 16:22:16 <clown> oh, I consider myself a user, but only one of the "low magnification population of users.
  87 16:22:18 <joanie> clown: would you mind?
  88 16:22:43 <joanie> mind sending the email I mean
  89 16:22:49 <clown> joanie, I will draft it.  I will also send you the draft for you input.
  90 16:22:54 <jjmarin> I think a use case need to add the info why clown prefer that configuration
  91 16:22:58 <clown> But, should I be the sender to the lise?
  92 16:23:01 <clown> *list
  93 16:23:11 <joanie> I think you should be the sender, yes
  94 16:23:41 <clown> Okay. but I still want your input, joanie.
  95 16:23:45 <joanie> sure
  96 16:23:53 <clown> So, I'll draft it sometime today, and send it to you.
  97 16:23:54 <clown> okay?
  98 16:23:57 <joanie> and we should get APIs, since he's chief
  99 16:24:00 <API> #action clow will write a draft, ask joanie for input, send final email
 100 16:24:01 <joanie> and I'm a snarky b*tch
 101 16:24:05 <clown> fearless leader.
 102 16:24:14 <clown> "clow"?  I like that:-)
 103 16:24:27 <API> so clown, anything else (said API looking worried at the clock)
 104 16:24:33 <clown> nope.
 105 16:24:39 * API looking english dictionary just in case
 106 16:24:43 <joanie> clocks scare me too
 107 16:24:44 <API> ok
 108 16:24:51 <API> fwiw, I forgto something for this point
 109 16:25:11 <clown> sorry, API, "no".
 110 16:25:22 <API> #info while working on pdf-accessibility joanie and API where talking about that old AtkTableCell interface we agreed to add on a hackfest a long time ago
 111 16:25:44 <API> #info somewhat forgotten, and not reviewed by then maintainer Lee, API reviewed the patch that mgorse uploaded
 112 16:25:51 <API> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=651353
 113 16:25:51 <tota11y> 04Bug 651353: normal, Normal, ---, jdiggs, UNCONFIRMED, Implement AtkTableCell
 114 16:26:01 <API> #info API review had some questions and comments
 115 16:26:01 <joanie> oops assigned to me
 116 16:26:26 <API> #info joanie answered some questions, but it would be good to have the input from mgorse (patch's author) too
 117 16:26:37 <API> #info hopefully it would be good to have this for 3.12
 118 16:26:50 <API> this==the interface at ATK, probably it would be too much implementors having it implemented
 119 16:27:11 <API> #info additionally, although not touched lately, there is a revamp of AtkValue on process
 120 16:27:17 <mgorse> Hmm. I always forget that adding an attachment doesn't automatically CC me on a bug... Are in API freeze right now, API?
 121 16:27:30 <API> #info API will try to finish it and having a patch to show
 122 16:27:34 <API> mgorse, I don't think so
 123 16:27:42 <API> I mean that we are not in any active freeze
 124 16:27:46 * API looking just in case
 125 16:27:56 <mgorse> maybe it goes into effect with .90, not .5
 126 16:28:06 <joanie> I think you're correct mgorse
 127 16:28:13 <joanie> freeze is approaching soon
 128 16:28:19 <joanie> but not here quite yet
 129 16:28:50 <API> well, technically, API freeze is also at Feb 17
 130 16:28:59 <mgorse> ok, good to know
 131 16:29:01 <joanie> plenty of time :P
 132 16:29:04 <API> but as I'm saying, this is about having the interface, not requiring implementors to implement it
 133 16:29:29 <API> in that sense, it is not about changing an API developers should be using (or are using) for this cycle
 134 16:29:49 <API> in any case, mgorse if you take a look to my comments it would be really appreciated
 135 16:29:51 <joanie> that means we can keep on adding stuff post "freeze"?
 136 16:30:03 * joanie coughs "AtkValue"
 137 16:30:27 <jjmarin> API knows all the tricks to deal the freeze :-)
 138 16:30:40 <API> well, I plan to, but don't tell others
 139 16:30:43 <API> having said so
 140 16:30:44 <joanie> that's why he's fearless leader and we but humble minions
 141 16:30:45 <API> done
 142 16:30:47 <API> anyone else=
 143 16:30:48 <API> ?
 144 16:31:07 <joanie> just more of a comment/observation
 145 16:31:31 <joanie> I am *pretty sure* that Gtk+ has not moved forward on focus-tracking (the atk stuff; not mag stuff) deprecation
 146 16:31:38 <joanie> We (I) should verify that
 147 16:31:43 <joanie> Orca's still ready for it
 148 16:31:49 <joanie> but I don't think gtk+ is
 149 16:32:05 <joanie> with those comments -- and non-responses from matthias
 150 16:32:15 <joanie> API were you going to ping Matthias?
 151 16:32:23 <joanie> about the comments/non-responses?
 152 16:32:26 <API> yes, that is on my todo
 153 16:32:29 <joanie> k
 154 16:32:30 <API> still not done
 155 16:32:42 <joanie> I'll add make sure it didn't get committed without us noticing
 156 16:32:49 * joanie pulls gtk+3 from git
 157 16:33:00 <joanie> that's all I have
 158 16:33:16 <API> I don't think so
 159 16:33:23 <API> so, anything else in this topic?
 160 16:34:21 <joanie> seems Benjamin is at least ignoring deprecation warnings
 161 16:34:25 <joanie> so nothing else in this topic
 162 16:34:32 <joanie> but I'm going to look at this gtk+ stuff
 163 16:34:54 <joanie> oh one more thing
 164 16:35:01 <joanie> the new Gtk+ popup widget
 165 16:35:07 <joanie> we need to look at that
 166 16:35:13 * joanie writes that down
 167 16:35:41 <joanie> (now I think I'm done)
 168 16:35:50 * joanie hates impending freezes/beta releases
 169 16:36:17 <API> ok, so I will move then
 170 16:36:28 <API> #topic W3C updates
 171 16:36:31 <API> clown, joanie ?
 172 16:36:35 <clown> me again?
 173 16:36:37 * clown is taking control of the meeting...
 174 16:37:04 <clown> #info The ARIA 1.0 release is in the state of waiting on votes from the membership to proceed.
 175 16:37:20 <clown> #info So far, all the votes have been positive, but there are many more to come.
 176 16:37:46 <clown> #info The plan is to put the document into shape and announce ARIA 1.0 at CSUN.
 177 16:38:05 <clown> #info On th developement side, the first change for 1.1 is about to take place.
 178 16:38:36 <clown> #info Specifically, the *name* of the presentation role is deprecated and to be replaced with role="none".
 179 16:38:47 <clown> #info  See:  http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/roles#presentation
 180 16:39:10 <API> just the name?
 181 16:39:21 <clown> #info that link shows the current wording for role="presentation".  Simply subsitutie "none" for "presentation".
 182 16:39:23 <clown> yes, API
 183 16:39:31 <API> ah ok
 184 16:39:34 <API> last info explained it
 185 16:39:41 <API> sorry for the interruption, pleoase go on
 186 16:39:41 <clown> s/subsitutie/substitute/
 187 16:40:01 <clown> I'm done, actually.  questions?  over to you joanie, if you have anything to add?
 188 16:40:08 <joanie> nothing to add
 189 16:40:10 * clown notes that joanie is really good scribe.
 190 16:40:14 <joanie> heh
 191 16:40:25 <joanie> achievement unlocked: did. not. die.
 192 16:40:26 <joanie> :)
 193 16:41:05 <API> so, on CSUN will be a kind of ARIA 1.0 party?
 194 16:41:06 <clown> To explain;  joanie attended her first UAIG meeting, and was the minute take.
 195 16:41:12 <joanie> once the release (gnome) is out the door, I plan to really dive into the testing stuff
 196 16:41:13 <clown> *taker.
 197 16:41:45 <clown> API, yes.  Likely a party if they manage to put everything together in time.
 198 16:41:54 <clown> there will be champagne, I expect.
 199 16:42:28 <clown> acttually, I heard one of the things they are looking for are testimonials.
 200 16:42:38 <clown> From companies.
 201 16:43:17 <API> before ARIA 1.0 my life was worthless. ARIA 1.0 changed my life. Im not an alcoholic anymore
 202 16:43:20 * clown wonders if the IDRC PR machine would be interested.
 203 16:43:31 <joanie> hehehehe
 204 16:43:31 <clown> API, is that Igalia's official position?
 205 16:43:35 <API> that will happens if someone C&P without looking too much
 206 16:44:00 <API> well, sorry for the brief misc time moment
 207 16:44:07 <API> clown, joanie thanks for the summary
 208 16:44:13 <clown> wlcm
 209 16:44:16 <API> anyone has more questions, comments, doubtS?
 210 16:45:11 <jjmarin> hard life in Igalia :-)
 211 16:46:28 * joanie hums and builds gtk+
 212 16:46:41 <joanie> seems there's a new "action bar" too
 213 16:47:12 <joanie> API moving on?
 214 16:47:15 <clown> There is also a "switch" now, https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/unstable/GtkSwitch.html
 215 16:47:16 <API> oh
 216 16:47:23 <API> I was waiting for something about the action bar
 217 16:47:24 <API> but on
 218 16:47:26 <API> but ok
 219 16:47:27 <clown> what is the ATK for that switch?
 220 16:47:37 <clown> actually, that's for misc time.  Ignore me.
 221 16:48:00 <API> clown, well, seems role-checkbutton with states checked non-checked
 222 16:48:01 <joanie> clown: that's not new
 223 16:48:02 <API> but not sure
 224 16:48:09 <joanie> and it's a toggle button I think
 225 16:48:10 <API> I would need to check how was implemented
 226 16:48:17 <joanie> anyhoo....
 227 16:48:18 <API> joanie, oh, yes
 228 16:48:20 <clown> yes, API, joanie, but a new role in aria 1.1 is "switch".
 229 16:48:21 <API> that makes more sense
 230 16:48:28 <joanie> clown: I know
 231 16:48:52 <joanie> I think that new aria role will map to atk_role_toggle_button
 232 16:49:08 <joanie> capitalization optional day
 233 16:49:11 * joanie shuts up for real
 234 16:49:15 <API> yes, unless a good reason appear
 235 16:49:18 <API> anywaaayyy
 236 16:49:19 <API> moving
 237 16:49:23 <API> #topic Marketing
 238 16:49:28 <clown> right, if you can show that the gtk switch widget maps to atk_role_toggle_button, that's an argument for mapping role="switch" the same way.
 239 16:49:40 <API> #info API received jjmarin email with the wikipedia entry, didn't review it yet
 240 16:49:43 <API> done
 241 16:49:44 <API> and sorry
 242 16:49:47 <API> jjmarin, anything else?
 243 16:49:53 <jjmarin> #Info Juanjo is waiting for feedback and green lights from API and mgorse for updating the ATK and AT-SPI entries in the wikipedia and talk to the wikipedians
 244 16:50:00 <jjmarin> mgorse: not sure if you have received my email (just to make sure it hasn't been eaten by the cookie monster :-)
 245 16:50:44 <jjmarin> #info I have a pending  article fot the annual report. Tomorrow I have some time to start the article
 246 16:51:04 <joanie> yay for doing the annual report for us jjmarin!!! :)
 247 16:51:21 <jjmarin> np :-)
 248 16:51:48 <API> ok
 249 16:51:49 <API> so
 250 16:51:52 <API> questions, doubts?
 251 16:52:17 <clown> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-SPI
 252 16:52:19 <clown> ?
 253 16:52:24 <API> clown, yes
 254 16:52:26 <API> the idea is update
 255 16:52:29 <clown> thanks.
 256 16:52:30 <API> both it and ATK
 257 16:52:45 <API> or at least explain on that page the difference between atspi and atk
 258 16:52:55 <API> and similarities
 259 16:53:31 <API> as I don't see people talking
 260 16:53:34 <API> jjmarin, thanks
 261 16:53:43 <API> so I will move to next (and last topic)
 262 16:53:44 <jjmarin> I haven't explain too much about this
 263 16:53:52 <API> jjmarin, no problem
 264 16:53:58 <API> thats the reason you sent the intiial draft
 265 16:54:00 <API> to review and improve
 266 16:54:08 <jjmarin> msanchez post is the best one reference I've found about the differences
 267 16:54:09 <API> #topic Misc time
 268 16:54:18 <API> so about previous clown question:
 269 16:54:21 <API> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk+/tree/gtk/gtkswitch.c#n897
 270 16:54:31 <API> yes gtkswitch is mapping to ATK_ROLE_TOGGLE_BUTTON
 271 16:54:41 <clown> thanks API.
 272 16:54:42 <API> and with that link I can show it
 273 16:56:10 <API> so anyone else have something miscellaneous to comment/share?
 274 16:57:10 <jjmarin> not for me
 275 16:58:30 <API> no one asking, 2 minutes of silence
 276 16:58:34 <API> so I will close the meeting
 277 16:58:41 <API> thanks everybody for coming
 278 16:58:43 <API> #endmeeting