16:01:16 #startmeeting 16:01:16 Meeting started Thu Feb 6 16:01:16 2014 CET. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:01:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:01:26 #topic 5 minutes of margin; waiting for people 16:01:41 hmmm topic didn't change 16:01:46 * clown waves 16:01:47 I don't have ops power today 16:01:52 API: tota11y doesn't have ops. Not sure what should be done ab out that 16:01:52 hi all 16:02:00 he aday 16:02:04 or, hi, rather. 16:02:15 hi aday ! 16:02:15 probably joanie knows better 16:02:27 in any case, for minutes sake, I think that #topic still works 16:02:32 no one has authority today? 16:02:46 anarchy! 16:02:50 clown, no, today is no-authority day 16:03:09 API, does that mean you are *not* our fearless leader? 16:03:11 btw, taking into account that aday and clown are already here, although agenda put 3.12 as third item 16:03:12 anymore? 16:03:23 * clown looks 16:03:24 we can put as first item 16:03:28 clown, is a de-cup 16:03:45 https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings 16:03:49 ? 16:04:04 okay with me, API 16:04:39 clown, I mean coup detat 16:04:53 I think that English stole that from French 16:04:54 well, yes, that makes more sense. 16:05:01 Im not too used to french 16:05:08 in any case 5 minutes now 16:05:09 c'est vrai. 16:05:14 so we can start the real meeting 16:05:28 #topic Progress towards 3.12 16:05:30 fossdem syndrome, speak in French 16:05:50 en Français? Pas moi. 16:05:53 clown, aday, magpie , I think that you can start with the settings+magnifier focus tracking thing 16:05:59 but please, in english 16:06:01 okay API 16:06:05 #info Crosshairs Are Broken https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723709 (This bug is caused by https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/commit/js/ui/magnifier.js?id=193f872ebedfb1fb1107a428b595855812f42153 ) I already have a fix for this waiting on review 16:06:05 04Bug 723709: critical, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Crosshairs Are Broken 16:06:26 Intereseting, but let's talk about that later, magpie. 16:06:49 #info at fosdem aday florian and I all met up to talk about adding preferences to the control center 16:07:20 #info A couple of days ago, aday and magpie approached me in #a11y about adding said preferences. 16:07:30 #info but there was some ambiguity about what was vital for the next release and how it should be done so that the preferences are clear to users 16:08:02 #info Magdalen explained there are still some bugs to iron out with the focus tracking so it's important people can turn it off and on again 16:08:09 i'm confident that i can come up with an updated design for the preferences 16:08:11 Magnifier: Focus Tracking should focus "objects" more complete https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720716 16:08:11 Magnifier: Focus Tracking flipps on left screen edge in some cases https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720715 16:08:11 Magnifier: Focus Tracking should jump more smooth to the next focus point. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=720723 16:08:11 04Bug 720716: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Magnifier: Focus Tracking should focus "objects" more complete 16:08:12 04Bug 720715: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Magnifier: Focus Tracking flipps on left screen edge in some cases 16:08:13 04Bug 720723: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Magnifier: Focus Tracking should jump more smooth to the next focus point. 16:08:39 #info Allan is confident he can come up with a design to update the preferences 16:08:50 \o/ 16:09:01 will maybe be tomorrow or the beginning of next week, and will mostly be a reshuffle of what's already there, with the addition of some extra tracking options 16:09:19 info Allan thinks will maybe be tomorrow or the beginning of next week, and will mostly be a reshuffle of what's already there, with the addition of some extra tracking options 16:09:28 opps forgot the # 16:09:35 please, could you? 16:09:37 * aday doesn't know how to talk robot 16:09:39 #info Allan thinks will maybe be tomorrow or the beginning of next week, and will mostly be a reshuffle of what's already there, with the addition of some extra tracking options 16:09:40 would make minutes easier 16:09:50 s'ok aday I'll translate 16:10:00 magpie, i think i've got it :) 16:10:01 fwiw 16:10:24 #info API notes that users also asked about how to turn on/off or change the mode on the mailing lists 16:10:38 aday, when you say "adding extra tracking options", is the starting point magpie's suggestions in bugzilla 708452? 16:10:46 * clown looks up url 16:10:57 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708452#c7 16:10:57 04Bug 708452: normal, Normal, ---, control-center-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Focus and Caret Tracking: Include preferences 16:10:58 #info there was also some discussion about whether or not the colour and tinting preferences should be in the zoom or not 16:11:15 whoops, that's not point at the right thing. 16:11:31 i think for the time being the best thing we can do is rename "zoom" to "zoom & color" or "zoom & tint" 16:11:35 #info that discussion was informed by https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596386 16:11:35 04Bug 596386: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Dyslexia support screen tinter 16:11:53 well, and now starting some small discussion without infos 16:11:59 imho, 16:12:04 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676814 16:12:04 04Bug 676814: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, make 'zoom' independent of color-related shader use 16:12:11 has more priority adding preferences to the focus/caret tracking 16:12:14 that to the tinting 16:12:23 in several cases 16:12:32 a magnifier without tracking is useless 16:12:40 Sorry, I'm totally lost regarding which single aspect of the magnifier we are talking about. 16:12:41 obviously it would be awesome to have both 16:12:55 there are two things that right now 16:13:07 you can't control with a preference UI 16:13:11 one is the focus/caret tracking 16:13:34 and the other is the tinting (so changing the brightness/etc from each color component) 16:13:52 additionally magpie is mentioning this bug: 16:13:57 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676814 16:13:57 04Bug 676814: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, make 'zoom' independent of color-related shader use 16:14:02 IMHO, the focus/caret tracking preference UI has priority. 16:14:02 as I mentioned this monday 16:14:10 that bug is in summary 16:14:23 cleaning all the magnifier preferences 16:14:30 because as some have noted 16:14:48 sometimes you want to changes colors without changing the zoom, so somehow are independent 16:14:50 but imho 16:14:55 that is a big amount of work 16:15:01 and probably it would be better this 16:15:17 #info Magdalen spoke to drag01 about perhaps making the colour changes in g-s firslty so that the colour/tinting can be activates independently of the magnifier in there 16:15:25 3.12: add a new tab for focus/caret preferences (if time permits also tintint) 16:15:36 3.X (x>12): clean all the magnifier preferences 16:15:46 #info this would mean that the preferences could come later on 16:15:55 well, my approach is somewhat conservative 16:16:01 but is just a suggestion 16:16:15 doing all that for 3.12 would depend on the people available for this 16:16:18 aday, do you have any questions so far? 16:17:37 magpie, API, i think we're in agreement. at this point in the cycle my instinct is to go for the low hanging fruit 16:17:58 ok 16:18:00 API, that's true, but if aday can do it I can help. We can prioritise the tracking without necessarily ruling out the colour changes depends how hard aday thinksit will be 16:18:05 so next question is 16:18:10 aday will work on design 16:18:20 who will work on the patches for gnome-control-center? 16:18:56 that would involve the code freeze, correct? 16:19:14 which is Mar 17? 16:19:43 clown, ui freeze is in a couple of weeks, i think 16:19:45 I mean, working on the code for g-c-c. It would have to be done by Mar 17, right? 16:19:49 #info Magdalen can do help aday on the control center patches as long as she knows what the design is because Magdalen is a bit lost with the design end of things 16:19:51 well ui freeze 16:20:08 that is (for now) Feb 17 16:20:10 aday, I'm think the UI can be frozen while the code that runs it is still in development. 16:20:12 17th feb 16:20:19 *I'm thinking 16:20:23 #info the freeze is on 17th Feb 16:20:30 clown, but take into account that most all of this is UI 16:20:39 magpie, but i think it will be delayed by a week 16:20:55 oh useful 16:21:10 API, well, you asked who will work on the patches for gnome-control-center? I thought you meant the code. 16:21:26 aday, it is not clear yet, I will talk about that when I summarize the wayland status 16:21:44 clown, yeah, but that code is about ui 16:21:53 in any case 16:21:54 API, oh ok. i thought it was fairly certain 16:22:00 that is, changes to gnome-control-center = UI patches + code patches. 16:22:12 aday, well, due FOSDEM 16:22:16 some replies arrive late 16:22:19 so the UI freeze (Feb 17) applies to the code for the UI as well? 16:22:25 but today andre also mentioned it 16:22:28 in any case 16:22:32 is Feb17 or a week later 16:22:38 so is not a lot of time in any case 16:22:47 #info the schedule is here https://wiki.gnome.org/Schedule 16:22:59 (any case twice in the same sentence, I'm the new Shakespeare) 16:23:07 hee hee 16:23:11 so 16:23:16 as we have an agreement 16:23:21 and some assignments 16:23:26 UI freeze means that the UI is not expected to change anymore. So depends on what your code change does. ;) 16:23:27 is there anything else to discuss here? 16:23:45 andre_ makes the UI "work" as expected :-) 16:24:10 #info Magdalen thinks the most important thing is to allow people to turn each of the tracking on and off independently because people will have different requirements but suspects clown might have some more thoughts to share on this topic 16:24:13 yeah, andre_ explained it better that me 16:24:16 well, I'll repeat my last question, API 16:24:27 so the UI freeze (Feb 17) applies to the code for the UI as well? 16:25:03 as andre_ said, if it modifies the UI, then yes, it applies 16:25:11 so we are talking here about the UI freeze 16:25:39 my perspective is the reacts to the users selection of buttons, radio buttons, etc, and properly sets/unsets the relevant gsettings. 16:25:58 the code doesn't change the UI, it just, well, engages it. 16:26:10 clown, in other words 16:26:18 if you make an screenshot 16:26:23 before and after any change 16:26:30 after UI freeze, it needs to be the same 16:26:39 and note that we are talking here about the UI of the settings dialog 16:26:50 a screenshot of the contorl center dialog? Or of the whole screen? 16:26:56 control-center-dialog 16:27:33 clown I hadn't realised that. I was thinking it would be waiting on design. 16:27:34 yes, that's pretty much what I mean. The appearance of that dialog is fixed, but the code is being developed/debugged/tested to make that UI work properly. 16:27:45 The code doesn't change the appearnce of that UI. 16:28:00 magpie, it does wait on the design. 16:28:15 clown, right now there isn't any button (or checkbutoon or widget) 16:28:16 No point in wriing a handler for a radio button that doesn't exist yet... 16:28:17 #info the code for preferences does not depend on the design it just engages the design. 16:28:20 to set on or off the tracking 16:28:31 so if you add that button 16:28:33 true that clown. 16:28:33 the ui changes 16:28:43 magpie has made suggestions for the UI. I have htoughts, and aday might have time to fully develop the UI. 16:28:58 So, I think the UI is close, but I may be biased. 16:29:03 in any case, I think that this discussion is going in circles 16:29:10 sorry, I'll shut up. 16:29:18 in summary, this is affected by the UI freeze 16:29:33 #idea including mouse tracking now the focus caret are there it might be good to have a way to turn mouse tracking off and still use magnifier too 16:29:58 magpie, there are already preferences for that 16:30:01 magpie, that would probaly make the machine unusable. 16:30:02 as aday said 16:30:08 API not to turn it off 16:30:18 at this point we should go for the priorities 16:30:33 imho 16:30:35 before it was taken for granted the mousetracking was always needed when the magnifier was on 16:30:57 so it;s not in the preferences to turn that off and continue to use magnification 16:31:06 because turning off mouse tracking means the mouse could go completely out of view. It becomes next to impossible to find it again. 16:31:18 it's that way on purpose. 16:31:43 there's a way to keep the mouse pointer in view i think 16:31:50 this is beyond the scope of the meeting, though. 16:31:58 but the cross hairs still do need to be restored 16:32:01 I agree with clown 16:32:09 magpie, that is a bug, and not part of this topic 16:32:17 API, can you summarize where we are with respect to focus tracking control centre work? 16:32:18 so (and again) 16:32:32 i'll circulate some design ideas as soon as possible - we can discuss it then 16:32:39 clown, the summary is mostly on those bugs 16:32:55 aday, ok thank you 16:33:02 * clown thanks aday. 16:33:11 so as we have an agreement, can we move to next topic? 16:33:12 ok aday, thanks has this been useful or do you have some further questions? 16:33:43 magpie, nothing right now thanks. i'm sure i'll have plenty of questions when i get stuck into it 16:33:58 aday, ok 16:34:06 #info aday will circulate some design ideas as soon as possible - to be discussed further. 16:34:29 ok thanks for your help with this it is really appreciated! 16:34:40 +1 16:34:55 taking into account that we are already over half of the meeting time 16:35:01 I will move to next topic 16:35:19 #topic Wayland 16:35:50 #info mclasen sent a email to release-team suggesting to move GNOME release one week 16:36:21 #info this change is related with the next release of Wayland, so GNOME 3.12 could use the last stable one 16:36:52 #info during the same week, API sent a email asking about what should be the default for GNOME 3.12 16:37:13 #info as the wiki still seems to suggest that would be Wayland, but for what he knew, it was not mature enough 16:37:26 #info consensus was that X will be still default for 3.12 16:37:48 #info this is good news for accessibility, because as you know, there are still some feature not ported to Wayland 16:38:13 so I guess we're not the only people who have work to do 16:38:26 #info due this (X being the default) some people of the release-team thinks that it doesn't worth to change GNOME schedule due Wayland 16:38:53 API have you identified what features those are? 16:38:59 #info so right now it is not clear if the schedule will change or not 16:39:01 done 16:39:13 magpie, yes, we identified them 16:39:20 we have a wiki listing them 16:39:25 link? 16:39:42 * API looking 16:39:53 https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/Gaps#Accessibility 16:40:00 https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Wayland 16:40:00 thanks 16:40:18 mgorse, yes, we are not the only ones with work to do, but still we have a lot to do 16:40:21 having said so 16:40:23 questions? 16:41:21 nope 16:42:00 well, mostly all of this was informative 16:42:22 andre_ you usually don't come to the a11y meetings 16:42:26 (thanks for coming btw) 16:42:35 but is your presence related to this wayland thing? 16:42:43 yeah. I just lurk. It's the only thing I'm really good in! ;) 16:42:52 nope :) 16:42:56 * clown looks anxiously over his shoulder. 16:43:08 the other side clown! 16:43:30 ok, so as people doesn't have questions 16:43:32 * magpie thinks andre_ is also good at bugzilla postings 16:43:39 lets move to next point 16:43:50 #topic W3C updates 16:43:54 clown? 16:43:56 * clown collects his thoughts 16:44:24 #info The ARIA specifcations are very nearly at the next stage of publication, namely "Proposed Recommendation". 16:45:01 #info The next step is to have the W3C members' official representative vote on approval of the documents. 16:45:26 #info I anticipate that they will be approved (I have inside information that Igalia will approve.) 16:45:55 #info Sometime in the next week or so the proposed recommendation version of the spec will be published. 16:46:08 #info I will annouce that on gnome-a11y list. 16:46:14 done, questions? 16:46:35 hmm, I was hopoing a kind of summary of what happened on Toronto two weeks ago 16:46:38 *hoping 16:46:50 oh. Lots. Hmmmm 16:46:57 * clown wonders how to summarize 16:47:15 I could dig up the urls to the meeting minutes. 16:47:22 would that be useful. 16:47:24 ? 16:48:12 well, if you don't have anything else ;) 16:48:27 I'll try for some general summary of what happened. 16:48:47 #info The ARIA working group met in Toronto for three days two weeks ago. 16:49:16 #info They went over the (long) list of outstanding issues and actions for version 1.1. 16:49:43 #info They pared it down to the highest priority items. 16:50:07 #info Work will begin on those items after the documents are published as proposed recommendation. 16:50:24 #info more info can be found in the meeting mintues. 16:50:28 * clown looks up urls. 16:52:29 * API thinks that clown got lost on the wide internet 16:52:34 alas, I can't seem to find them. I will keep looking and you can move on, unlesss there are questions. 16:52:47 nope 16:52:52 * clown just got lost in www.w3c.org space. 16:53:30 clown, ok dont worry 16:53:34 if you find them 16:53:45 send us a email, so we can include it on this meeting minutes 16:53:54 sure, API 16:54:24 and as sands of time are running low 16:54:28 Im moving to next topic 16:54:37 #topic Marketing 16:54:38 jjmarin, ? 16:54:47 Hi, are these specifications will be published today ? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2014JanMar/0025.html 16:55:02 #info Juanjo is working in updating the Wikipedia ATK and AT-SPI entries. I have draft, I will send the maintainers, API and mgorse, today for some corrections improvements (API already did it, but again just in case to add some more). 16:55:54 #info after the corrections, Juanjo will start the process to update the Wikipedia. 16:56:12 I can send to more people, if any of you feel like that :-) 16:56:14 Javido, taking into account previous comment from clown: 16:56:21 #info Sometime in the next week or so the proposed recommendation version of the spec will be published. 16:56:42 * API send his apologies to jjmarin, I was replying a question 16:56:54 jjmarin, ok, as soon as you send your email I will review it 16:57:01 Don't worry :-) 16:57:14 Finally, 16:57:22 #info Juanjo will write a summary of the accessibility work done for the GNOME annual report 16:58:10 maybe there infor are more like a action, I hope it doesn't matter too much 16:58:21 these info I mean 16:58:35 is ok 16:58:36 sorry is broken :-) 16:58:37 don't worry 16:58:46 so, people 16:58:53 more questions, doubts on this potic? 16:58:56 *topic 16:59:19 jjmarin English is contagious :-) 16:59:35 #action Juanjo will write a summary of the accessibility work done for the GNOME annual report 16:59:40 there you go 16:59:47 ok :-) 17:00:34 ok 17:00:38 and nobody is asking questions 17:00:43 so jjmarin thank you 17:00:50 #topic miscellaneous time 17:00:55 so before closing the meeting 17:01:14 anyone has something (short) to say not included on the agenda? 17:01:25 API, I have the urls for the aria f2f meeting minutes, but I'm not sure they are public. 17:01:33 Shall I paste them in her? 17:01:35 *here? 17:01:42 yes go on 17:01:45 please 17:02:01 #info ARIA face-to-face meeting day 1: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/23-aria-minutes.html 17:02:16 #info ARIA f2f day 2: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/24-aria-minutes.html 17:02:29 #info ARIA f2f day 3: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/25-aria-minutes.html 17:02:31 done. 17:02:35 #info Crosshairs Are Broken https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=723709 (This bug is caused by https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/commit/js/ui/magnifier.js?id=193f872ebedfb1fb1107a428b595855812f42153 ) I already have a fix for this waiting on review 17:02:35 can someone do the honours 17:02:35 04Bug 723709: critical, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Crosshairs Are Broken 17:03:04 that's all from me for now. g2g thanks everyone. 17:03:30 magpie, if you are asking if we can do the honours 17:03:37 we could review the patch 17:03:39 but as we are not 17:03:49 gnome-shell maintainers I don't think that that 17:03:56 would be enough to get a commit-bless 17:04:09 ok just that giovanni was saying it doesn't need to be fixed for a few month 17:04:29 clown: those urls are public :-) 17:04:31 so it might be useful to have someone from a11y as an extra review 17:05:04 thanks for checking jjmarin 17:05:11 magpie, ok, will try to take a look later 17:05:14 to speed things along whilst the crosshairs do not work and there is a fix written already it should not need to take so long as two months imho 17:05:26 and, thanks, aday, for looking into those focus/caret tracking preferences. 17:05:39 clown, thank me when i've done it :) 17:05:56 is a preventive thanks 17:06:00 aday, or perhaps curse you ? :-) nah. 17:06:01 yeah thanks aday, clown, API for your help with the tracking 17:06:17 in any case, we are already over time, and as we are just saying to each other how awesome we are 17:06:22 I will close the meeting 17:06:26 clown, you can do that too ;) 17:06:29 okay, aday, I'll amend my thanks: Thanks for getting the ball rolling again. 17:06:34 :-) 17:06:37 you can continue with the awesomeness at the IRC 17:06:47 #endmeeting