16:00:29 #startmeeting 16:00:29 Meeting started Thu Nov 7 16:00:29 2013 CET. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:00:29 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:00:34 #topic 5 minutes of margin 16:01:44 * clown waves 16:04:40 hi ! 16:05:15 hi jjmarin 16:05:24 hi everybody 16:05:28 5 minutes now 16:05:29 so 16:05:38 #topic Debian's switch to XFCE as the default desktop environment 16:06:01 #info Recently Debian made a internal commit in order to switch 16:06:14 #info default desktops, from GNOME to XFCE 16:06:29 http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commitdiff;h=dfca406eb694e0ac00ea04b12fc912237e01c9b5 16:06:48 #info one of the reasons given was Accessibility 16:07:16 #info I sent a email clarifying the situation of current accessibility status on both GNOME and XFCE 16:07:23 http://lists.debian.org/debian-upstream/2013/11/msg00000.html 16:07:53 #info Summarizing it in one line "Accessibility shouldn't be one of the reasons used to switch to XFCE" 16:07:54 DONE 16:07:56 ups 16:07:57 done 16:08:06 questions, thoughts, infos? 16:08:12 thoughts 16:08:14 maybe infos 16:08:15 ;) 16:08:45 The accessibility-related discussion seems to be under control. No flames, etc. So hopefully that is over and the misinformation corrected. 16:08:53 However, since this is marketing related 16:09:16 It would be good if jjmarin has time to keep an eye out for anything else that he or API or myself should address. 16:09:36 can we give that action item to you jjmarin? 16:09:48 yes 16:09:51 yay! 16:09:58 * joanie actions it 16:10:24 #action Juanjo will keep an eye out for any subsequent accessibility-specific issues/questions/concerns that we should address. 16:10:31 thank you! 16:10:40 I see there is another reply in the thread saying that GNOME 3.4 was not ready, but at that time I think no DE was ready 16:10:52 * joanie nods 16:11:07 and XFCE isn't ready still 16:11:31 yes 16:11:32 but personally, I think Debian can and should do whatever makes the most sense for them 16:11:37 yes I saw that answer 16:11:39 is somewhat odd 16:11:40 as long as they don't "blame" accessibility 16:11:51 because the underlying issue is still there 16:11:58 XFCE is also not accessible enough 16:11:59 exactly, I think so far it is under control 16:12:01 or rather "blame" accessibility when that blame is not valid 16:12:04 * joanie nods 16:12:10 in any case, anything else, moving? 16:12:17 I think that's it 16:12:21 so moving 16:12:27 #topic OPW (Joseph) 16:12:35 so clown aka Joseph, your turn 16:12:42 * joanie looks at clown with a puzzled expression 16:12:46 hopefully I can do this quickly. 16:13:31 #info Joseph was contaced by Sriram Ramkrshna and Gayathri Subrmanian to mentor Gayathri on the ARIA automated testing proposal from the dark ages. 16:13:47 #info I said I did not have time to mentor anyone at the moment. 16:14:09 #info But I committed to brining the issue to this group in case someone here wants to be a mentor. 16:14:30 #info Joanie wishes she had time, but she does not. 16:14:32 Done, questions? (And finished with that commitment. 16:14:40 hmm, if memory serves 16:14:44 i think that we talked about that recently 16:14:56 jjmarin, I think that the conclusion was removing the ARIA automated testing 16:14:58 from the page 16:15:03 basically due lack of time 16:15:08 #info the project is described at this url: sri@ramkrishna.me 16:15:21 sri.... 16:15:23 #info the project is described at this url: https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/AriaAutomatedTesting 16:15:32 oh 16:15:32 * clown sorry. bad clipboard. 16:15:33 :) 16:16:02 but probably it was a IRC chat or something 16:16:02 * clown hopes the minute editor can get rid of that erroneous link. 16:16:05 in any case 16:16:12 clown: np 16:16:18 #info API also doesn't have time this cycle for mentoring 16:16:22 and in relation to that chat 16:16:51 Yes, is there a way to "archive" a wiki page. It's still valid, but I don't want people "knocking on my door" for the next while. 16:16:51 #info last week, OPW was raised, and the conclusion is that no one from the a11y team seems to have time this cycle 16:16:58 #info for a full mentoring 16:17:25 so we have to remove from the list of avaiblable projects, at least for this cycle, right ? 16:17:25 or even partial mentoring 16:17:30 #info the only (seems to be) suitable project are adding configuration UI to some of the magnifier features 16:17:43 right, jjmarin. 16:17:48 #info but for that, someone from the design team seems a more suitable mentor 16:18:08 * clown wonders if the design team is on the case. 16:18:37 and done 16:18:58 #action Juanjo will remove the ARIA testing project from the list of available projects 16:18:59 so, how do we remove (temporarily) this project? 16:19:14 that will do. 16:19:15 :-) 16:19:26 * clown thanks jjmarin 16:19:51 I think so, we'll recover it when we have time for mentoring 16:20:50 about the configuration UI, I think aday and jasper are the best candidates 16:20:50 so summarizing this 16:21:02 clown, don't know if they are waiting for any answer 16:21:16 but if so, the bad news is that there are no suitable mentor 16:21:19 at least in this meeting 16:21:30 #action Joseph will formally reply to Sriram Ramkrshna stating that no mentors are available, and that the project has been withdrawn. 16:22:07 sorry i had a call 16:22:17 jjmarin, can you ping me when you have removed the project? I'll send the email after you do that. 16:22:33 fwiw, probably captain obvious here 16:22:34 clown: sure ! 16:22:40 clown, you're listed as a project mentor for opw 16:22:47 it is not needed to remove the page https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/AriaAutomatedTesting 16:22:56 but just remove it from the list of possible opw projects 16:23:06 magpie, yes, I know. I listed myself. Way back when... 16:23:18 magpie, and he was a mentor, on previous cycle 16:23:20 thanks jjmarin 16:23:28 but he doesn't have time this one 16:23:42 magpie, are you proposing to removing him from the list of possible mentors? 16:23:58 can be an option to avoid pings, and negative answers 16:24:02 * clown wants to be removed to the time being. 16:24:13 maybe but you andj joanie are listed too 16:24:17 * clown *for the time being. 16:24:52 in any case, that is just a detail, as jjmarin volunteered to update the wiki 16:25:03 lets give him the possibility to use common sense 16:25:13 :) 16:25:13 it might give people false hopes but it depends whether the current cycle ideas are listed i think that other page is just a 'who's who' thing 16:25:13 and update it as he thinks make sense 16:25:24 so having said so, moving? 16:25:27 moving 16:25:45 #topic The focus-tracking deprecations 16:25:48 joanie? 16:25:53 me? 16:25:55 I think that this is your potic 16:25:56 *topic 16:26:00 I thought you were going to discuss it 16:26:07 point to the firefox bug, etc. 16:26:13 sounds like a hot potato. 16:26:15 I can info what you did, said, etc. if you'd like 16:26:20 well, but as you were the one dealing with alex surkov 16:26:23 wait 16:26:29 * joanie pulls up the bug 16:26:47 jasper mentioned that he might be ok with an a11y project for g-s a while ago 16:26:53 only in passing mind 16:26:59 * joanie waits 16:27:32 as said before, the available a11y related projects that can suit for an opw 16:27:35 and the ui settings 16:27:36 but maybe worth checking with him 16:27:46 for that someone from the design team would be better 16:27:47 but ok 16:27:50 I thought we changed topics? 16:28:01 #action API will ping jasper 16:28:09 cool sounds good! 16:28:12 yes, this is the reason Im trying to solve this comment soon 16:28:14 and over 16:28:19 so joanie now your turn 16:28:20 for sure 16:28:28 * magpie would like someone to have the ui lot 16:28:42 so.... moving on for real now? 16:28:48 yep 16:28:53 thanks 16:28:56 anyhooo 16:29:33 #info Given that the focus tracker stuff from atk and focus: method are being deprecated, Joanie had a chat with Alex Surkov. 16:29:51 #info He filed a bug and provided a patch https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935567 16:29:51 04Bug 935567: normal, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW , stop calling atk_focus_tracker_notify when handling focus 16:29:57 * clown looks 16:30:24 #info Trev Saunders, who is one of the Mozilla a11y developers asked a question to which Piñeiro provided a detailed reply 16:30:35 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935567#c5 16:30:35 04Bug 935567: normal, --, ---, surkov.alexander, NEW , stop calling atk_focus_tracker_notify when handling focus 16:31:10 #info As questions like Trev's come up, and possibly as we file the bugs against other toolkits and apps, that comment 5 might serve as a good guide. 16:31:44 #info i.e. Perhaps we should include some of that content in the opening report and/or point to it as questions are asked of us. 16:31:57 (why reinvent the excellent wheel API provided?) 16:31:59 * API still thinks that the gnome bugzilla has enough info 16:32:11 API, well, apparently not for Trev 16:32:12 ;) 16:32:31 yeah, he wanted a summary, instead of reading the email 16:32:32 if we don't need that content, great 16:32:43 but we live in a tl;dr world 16:32:44 what surprises me is the apparently 16:32:52 fact that alex surkov didn't know about that 16:33:03 those deprecations were agreed on a hackfest with him 16:33:04 Mozilla code is huge 16:33:08 oh 16:33:10 * API shrughs 16:33:12 huh 16:33:13 dunno 16:33:19 * joanie shrugs too 16:33:21 in any case, yes, that seems all 16:33:29 so questions, comments, thoughts? 16:33:42 #info With respect to Orca, joanie is slowly but surely doing the switch over to no longer listen for focus: events 16:34:06 #info It's taking forever, and users are finding occasional bugs, but mostly it's progressing nicely. 16:34:19 +1 16:34:23 #info With only one (so far) gtk+ bug needing to be fixed. 16:34:37 lemme grab that bug 16:34:39 then I'll be done 16:34:55 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711397 16:34:55 04Bug 711397: normal, Normal, ---, gtk-bugs, UNCONFIRMED, object:state-changed:focused event missing the first time a GtkComboBox gains focus 16:35:00 now I think I'm done 16:35:02 thanks! 16:35:12 is an "active descendant" situation relevant to this discussion? (Is still wrapping his head around all these emails/bugzillas). 16:35:28 yes clown it is relevant 16:35:35 but perhaps beyond the scope of this meeting?? 16:35:42 we can chat later in #a11y though 16:36:02 sure. there were lots of edits to the UAIG in the last two weeks, some of which had to do with focus. 16:36:21 active descendant was one of them — but that's for another place and time. 16:36:24 thanks joanie 16:36:36 focus is a tricky thing when more stuff gets in the mixture 16:36:51 clown, anything else? 16:37:13 actually, focus on gnome is probably the simplest. On windows — sheesh. 16:37:19 nope nothing else. 16:37:20 :) 16:37:31 and in mac, everything is a group and it's all good 16:37:32 ;) 16:37:37 #topic Progress towards 3.12 16:37:58 #info Focus deprecations are also part of 3.12 work, see previous section for more info 16:38:16 #info Piñeiro sent a email just today to gnome-shell list about keyboard navigation 16:38:32 #info although the plan was proposing that as a feature, I concluded that would be strange 16:38:46 #info to propose a feature related with gnome-shell, without talking with them first 16:39:05 that was the email i was referring to before i went to the phone by the way 16:39:11 k 16:39:20 and no more updates from my side 16:39:24 anyone else? 16:39:32 yes 16:39:38 mgorse, any update about async API + event emission with more info proposal? 16:40:43 #info mgorse has been working on being able to cache properties in a way that's more flexible. WIll send an email to the list this week with a proposed API 16:40:59 ok 16:41:06 in any case, as you said on your initial email 16:41:16 that is part of the solution, but it would be also good to check 16:41:33 the addition of async calls 16:41:39 in any case, lets go step by step 16:41:45 mgorse, thanks for the work 16:42:11 #info mclasen filed a bug about implementing the scaling from wayland into mutter and I think this will be a good idea for the magnifier. global.get_window_actors().forEach(function(w) { w.scale_x = w.scale_y = 2.0; }) seems to improve things but doesn't include the status bars. Perhaps it cou;d be used for caret tracking view 16:42:29 not sure. 16:42:45 but still would like to follow that one up. 16:42:56 k 16:42:59 anyone else? 16:43:05 #info mousetweaks is still undecided 16:43:18 ah true, I have another info 16:43:36 #info API has an action item about sending emails to resume conversations 16:43:49 not sure what to do about that so i am just looking into testing it for the time being 16:44:02 #info he sent some (like the mentioned keynav) but he still needs to send some more (like mousetweaks one) 16:44:03 great thanks API 16:44:14 what of your tinting work? 16:44:42 tinting is already implemented, the missing part is the UI, and we already talked about that 16:44:45 in any case, 16:44:49 any other comment, or moving? 16:44:57 and what are the ideas for the a11y ui? 16:45:18 well, my plan was info'ing about work done, not about work done 16:45:27 if I don't say nothing assume that I didn¡t have time to that 16:45:33 well, my plan was info'ing about work done, not about work *not* done 16:45:43 heh 16:46:25 well, it seems that there are a small silence here, and nobody talking so 16:46:26 API do the tinting ideas affect the magnifier zoom ones or is it to be implemented twice? 16:46:40 tinting is implemented on the magnifier 16:46:46 zoom is a setting 16:46:50 tinting is a unrelated one 16:47:00 * magpie thinks the colour slider is not working as it should be at the moment 16:47:17 API there's a colour slider in zoom options dialogue 16:47:43 it's that which i think uses the function needed for the tinting 16:48:09 magpie, it works for me 16:48:32 magpie, the colour slider is for "degrees of grey levels". Not tinitng. 16:48:33 and discussing about that is out oc the scope 16:48:41 so I will move to next topic 16:48:52 this is 3.12 isn't it? 16:49:02 what I mean 16:49:17 is that you want to talk about the details of a feature that only fails to you 16:49:23 a11y-meeting is mostly informative 16:49:34 should be short 16:49:44 clown, thanks for clarifying. which function would be for tinting, do you remember about that? 16:49:54 if it is failing, open a bug 16:50:11 i did, a while ago 16:50:22 #topic W3C updates 16:50:26 clown, your turn 16:50:52 magpie, there are gsettings for the rgb channels for brightness and contrast. By setting the r, g, and b to separate values, you get tinting. What's missing is a UI (sliders) to allow users to do this. 16:51:46 #info Joseph posted to the a11y list about the last call publication of the User Agent Implementation Guide for ARIA 1.0 16:51:49 ah ok i thought the colour slider was using that too but i see what you mean now. thanks 16:52:04 #info The link of that annoucement: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2013-November/msg00000.html 16:52:29 #info Last week, we discovered that the test results page was private. 16:52:57 #info Joseph asked if it could be made public, and was given a postive response. 16:53:04 yay 16:53:15 So, to test that: Is this availalbe for everyone: 16:53:23 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=2 16:53:30 * joanie looks 16:53:37 nope 16:53:42 :-( 16:53:46 * clown screams 16:54:07 the server says: W3CACL 16:54:13 (after the normal password stuff) 16:54:26 #action Joseph will report that the switch to public did not work, and will request that it be made public. 16:54:33 thank you 16:54:55 done, any questions about the last call document and/or procedure for making comments? 16:55:14 not yet. I need to read the email. 16:55:19 me too 16:55:24 * clown waits. 16:55:26 * clown hums 16:55:30 I didn't mean *now* 16:55:33 silly 16:55:40 I meant I will read it and if I have questions, ping you 16:56:08 :-) 16:56:09 five minutes til our next meeting API 16:56:10 * clown silly me. 16:56:14 * clown stops humming. 16:56:16 :) 16:56:34 #topic Marketing 16:56:35 jjmarin, ? 16:56:47 #info Juanjo has draft for the ATK entry in the wikipedia and has receive some feedback from API. 16:56:55 #info As suggested, it makes sense to do as well the entry for AT-SPI, to complement the ATK entry. 16:57:02 #action Juanjo will start to write about AT-SPI and will menace mgorse to ask him for comments about AT-SPI when he has an early draft about it. 16:57:10 nice 16:57:12 done ! 16:57:17 thanks for this work 16:57:26 probably it would be good to do this on a shared tool 16:57:31 not sure if the wiki is the best one 16:57:37 an accessible shared tool 16:57:42 I think there's an AT-SPI entry on there, but it's probably out of date 16:57:48 menacing's always fun. good work jjmarin. 16:57:49 * clown lovely mental image of jjmarin menacing mgorse 16:57:53 mgorse, yes is somewhat out of date 16:58:28 in any case, when jjmarin has that ready, we can agree on a place to make shared edits 16:58:30 ok, I'll take a lok for a shared tool 16:58:40 so, anything else, questions, etc? 16:58:51 clown, jjmarin is far too laid back to be menacing. 16:59:13 uses wet noodles, does he? 16:59:28 clearly we have moved into misc time 16:59:31 obviously we entered misc time 16:59:33 with 30 seconds to next meeting 16:59:35 ;) 16:59:37 #topic miscellaneous time 16:59:39 menace is another word for engagement :-) 16:59:42 times up! 16:59:52 so anytihng else (short) and not scheduled to be mentioned ? 17:00:15 clown: remove the ARIA testing from https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeLove/Mentors 17:00:24 wayland? 17:00:27 I've removed it I mean 17:00:36 jjmarin: "remove" or "I removed"? 17:00:42 Oh, you just answered my question. 17:00:49 thanks jjmarin 17:01:06 clown iis that the api for html5 or is there other stuff as well? 17:01:34 magpie, are you talking about the UAIG? 17:02:43 maybe, I mean the w3 consulting stuff for the publication you are doing 17:04:15 well, it is almost 5 minutes over time 17:04:18 magpie, the UAIG describes the implemenation of WAI-ARIA in various browsers and accessibility APIs. HTML5 is not the focus, although it is mentioned a coupld of time in the document. 17:04:22 the w3c even, sorry. 17:04:35 and taking into account that clown answered 17:04:39 I will close the meeting 17:04:48 I guess joanie and API have to move to their next meeting :-) 17:04:50 magpie, if you want the details, you just need to read the email 17:04:53 so closing the meeting 17:05:02 #endmeeting