16:00:22 #startmeeting 16:00:22 Meeting started Thu Oct 31 16:00:22 2013 CET. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:00:22 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:00:35 #topic 5 minutes of margin period 16:05:24 and the 5 minutes mark is here 16:05:28 so lets start the meeting 16:05:39 although I foresee a light meeting today 16:05:49 #topic 3.12 work 16:06:02 #info Wayland is still the main item. 16:06:13 #info threads have been somewhat quiet 16:06:24 specific threads? 16:06:27 #action API will ping the different threads open 16:06:39 magpie there is a open thread at gnome-accessiblity-devel 16:06:42 and at wayland devel 16:06:54 ah yes I am following that 16:07:11 ah btw, I have just remembered something 16:07:15 should we try to encourage the mousetweaks developers to say some words? 16:07:30 #info last week I have been talking with mousetweak developers, on a thread started with magpie 16:07:43 #info they are also having some problems using directly wayland 16:07:55 #info as wayland doesn't allow to access to some features 16:08:20 (note 'I'==API in that case) 16:08:21 #info in the same way, they are removing some of the code that used X in order to use at-spi2 16:08:48 magpie, well, you were also on the thread 16:08:49 in any case 16:08:56 I am not sure what information is needed before a decision can be made 16:09:20 hi ! 16:09:28 #info so that means that right now, some mousetweaks features will work if at-spi2 gets the proper porting 16:09:30 hi jjmarin 16:09:54 #info we will also keep mousetweak developers on the loop 16:10:04 magpie, thanks for remember that thread 16:10:09 too many threads last week 16:10:17 #info there have been discussions about whether to implement mousetweaks in gnome-shell 16:10:39 magpie, so directly on gnome-sell¿ 16:10:56 in the same way that the magnifier was implemented as a built-in feature on gnome-shell 16:11:01 in opposite to a different app in gnome2? 16:11:05 #info there was a concern that other desktops would not be able to use it if that happens 16:11:28 (fwiw, this is also my concern too) 16:11:30 in the same way as a magnifer 16:11:35 magpie, ok 16:11:38 through hoverClick.js 16:11:44 out of curiosity 16:11:51 who were involved on that discussion? 16:12:03 only gnome-shell developers or mousetweaks+gnoume-shell developers? 16:12:28 it would be the easiest thing but the worry is that people using ubuntu etc would lose out 16:12:56 API, it was discussed in the thread before I cc'd you in 16:13:12 magpie, ah ok 16:13:23 sorry, I understood that you were talking about 16:13:24 maybe you don't get to see that, let me know if you want me to forward it on 16:13:32 a different chat on IRC #gnome-shell 16:13:50 magpie, not neccessary 16:13:53 but thanks for the offer 16:14:15 in any case, I will resume the infos 16:14:29 #info the rest of the 3.12 items are more or less in the same status 16:14:46 #info still waiting for a formal proposal from mike gorse about async API for at-spi2 16:14:51 all the onboard discussion I am not sure what it means for mousetweaks wayland planning but it seems important 16:14:51 hmm, mgorse is not here 16:15:20 onboard discussion? 16:15:23 onboard the osk? 16:15:32 or literally onboard? 16:16:10 I mentioned that the onboard could end up in gnome-shell based on the discussions from GUADEC but I was not able to offer any help with that other than to add you into the thread 16:16:45 I think the onboard keyboard and mousetweaks are linked in a few ways 16:16:57 magpie, fwiw 16:17:06 gnome-shell is using caribou as the osk technology 16:17:13 and it would be important to be able to use the onboard in and out of the shell without problems 16:17:20 and yes, there are some discussions about doing all by themselves 16:17:23 but my questions 16:17:32 is because default osk on ubuntu is called onboard 16:17:41 but is not related at all with caribou 16:17:45 or used at gnome-shell 16:18:06 so, are you talking about a discussion to use onboard instead of caribou? 16:18:21 or are you just using the literal meaning of onboard? 16:18:30 API, to be honest I got a bit lost during the onboard debates but it's all in that same thread. 16:18:41 well, as I said 16:18:49 on that thread they were talking about curretn gnome-shell osk 16:18:58 so sorry for the noise 16:19:05 there are a lot of osks around 16:19:25 I was hoping you might see what it all meant for the future of mousetweaks 16:19:58 well, in this case 16:20:07 i can see if I can pull out something from the thread 16:20:15 the options are trying to do as we were doing till now 16:20:18 keep that spliting 16:20:20 or merge 16:20:33 yes essentially 16:20:34 the things is that we need to know better what wayland will asume as 16:20:43 own or delegated to the compositor 16:20:53 either way they would need to work in wayland though wouldn't they? 16:20:53 that is one of the reasons those threads need some ping 16:21:04 yes, they need to work under a wayland environment 16:21:19 but the question is if it will be supporte as a high level feature directly on wayland 16:21:23 so used in more places 16:21:45 or if it will be delegated to specific wayland compositors (ie: gnome-shell) 16:22:02 in any case, as I said, lets see if people say more stuff on the wyaland thread 16:22:12 and I will use some of the stuff we discussed today 16:22:23 and on the mousetweaks thread to revitalize the discussion 16:22:26 having said so, 16:22:35 any more questions, doubts, comments on this topic? 16:23:18 I think putting in gnome-shell would get it in there faster but maybe the standalone should not be dropped in the long run so that it stays available but leaving gerd and francesco to decide what they want 16:23:52 well 16:23:58 It would be useful to determine exactly what information would help them arrive at a decision 16:24:01 gnome classic is still around 16:24:10 so mousetweaks standalone will be still needed 16:25:04 yeah. I kind of want them both because it'll never get in the a11y menu if it's not in g-s 16:25:30 in any case, probably this is more material for threads or #a11y, as meetings are basically for updates 16:25:38 where is the mentioned thread about mousetweaks and wayland ? in wayland-devel list ? 16:25:38 so if you don't mind I will move to next topic 16:25:44 go for it. 16:25:49 jjmarin, started as a private thread 16:25:53 wait 16:25:56 although I offered to move to public 16:25:59 well sorry 16:26:04 it started public 16:26:05 ok 16:26:07 would it be ok to raise this on that thread? 16:26:11 but some replied privately 16:26:27 magpie, raise this? 16:26:30 this == ? 16:26:31 oh it has been raised 16:26:55 well, yes I mentioned that it could be re-openend 16:27:01 but just at that moment the thread stopped 16:27:05 to get some advice about what to do and get the emails thread discussed there 16:27:13 emails topics 16:27:21 email topic 16:27:37 * magpie got there in the end 16:27:47 magpie, as I said, I will use part of the discussed on that thread, and today, to ping other mailing lists 16:27:54 mostly to get advice 16:28:01 oh awesome 16:28:04 as it seems that mousetweak developers also have doubts 16:28:10 (everybody has doubts) 16:28:17 (doubts for everybody) 16:28:33 thanks, I think it will be better coming from you 16:28:37 nope 16:28:46 nope? 16:29:28 oh i thought you were asking whether there were any doubts from us 16:29:37 to move to the next topic 16:29:52 ah ok 16:30:01 #topic W3C updates 16:30:03 clown, ? 16:32:21 * API has the feeling that clown is at the meeting just in name/spirit 16:32:41 API, oh the meeting started? 16:32:53 Ah — time change in europe... 16:32:54 clown, 30 minutes ago ... 16:32:55 :P 16:32:58 but not in Canada. 16:33:01 ah true 16:33:04 we are special 16:33:06 I was here over an hour ago. 16:33:08 or you are special 16:33:17 everyone is special! 16:33:27 my fault 16:33:27 Okay. let me get the W3C update. 16:33:37 probably I should have sent a email to the list warning about this 16:33:49 this==time change in europe 16:33:52 what warning API ? 16:33:54 oh 16:34:11 yeah it's horrible and dark now 16:34:58 #info The 48 hour call-for-consensus for publishing the last call working draft of the ARIA UAIG document went out yesterday. 16:35:02 #info http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Oct/0142.html 16:35:19 #info so far, there have been nothing but postitive votes. 16:35:49 #info Likely that after the 48 hour period is over, the document will be published as a last call draft by Mon. 16:36:18 #action Joseph will email the a11y interest list when the UIAG document is published as a last call draft. 16:36:23 questions? 16:36:39 just one about how the document is created 16:36:53 it have a kind of squedule, as gnome do with releases? 16:37:04 or it is "just discussed" and when it is ready is announced? 16:37:26 my point is if after this new version is published 16:37:33 curent state is various W3C memebers are allowed to vote for/against publishing as last call status. 16:37:35 if there is a defined plan for the next version 16:38:14 clown, do you agree with everying that's going to be published? 16:38:18 if published, the world at large is invited to make comments about the document — criticize, ask for modifications, or say, "it looks good". 16:38:54 clown, well, yeah I understood that 16:38:59 The period of time for comments is until Dec 6 (I think) — it is early December. 16:39:13 but as you said that all were positive votes, I was assuming that the document will be published as it is right now 16:39:30 so I was thinking on the future 16:39:36 just curious about the procedure 16:40:19 maybe there's a page with their cycles 16:40:24 Yes, API, it is published with "last call" status. After the comments are answered, it is either published as "Proposed Recommendation" (= release version 1.0), OR it goes back to another last call status. 16:40:55 that's not a smiley "proposed recommendation" = release version 1.0. 16:41:38 It would go back to last call status if at least one of the comments was considered a fatal bug. 16:42:12 clown, well, my question (probably asked too early) 16:42:18 meanwhile, while in last call status, the document is forked and work begins on the 1.1 version = with "editors' draft" status. 16:42:20 if it is a plan for release version 1.x or 2.x 16:42:36 ah ok 16:42:52 so it is forked for 1.1 16:43:11 and as I asked, there are provisional deadlines or this is "refined until all agree" procedure? 16:43:19 Yes. There are already ARIA 1.1 issues that will affect the implemenation guide. 16:43:49 it is "refined until all agree", pretty much. W3C works by consensus. 16:44:07 as for magpie's question: "clown, do you agree with everying that's going to be published": 16:44:31 I don't know yet. I ams still runnning the tests. A couple are failing, and will probably mean changes to the document. 16:45:23 #info This table shows the status of the features that MUST be implemented in order to satisfy "proposed recommendation" status: 16:45:25 #info https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=2 16:45:52 You'll see that I have a lot of tests to run under the ATK/AT-SPI column. 16:46:07 well, I can't 16:46:14 it ask you for login+passwd 16:46:30 really??? That's supposed to be public. Shoot! 16:46:47 yes, it asks to me too :-) 16:47:08 you need to login for that 16:47:20 * clown checks the URL. There is a version that allows testers to modify the document. 16:47:40 An account (with a password) is required to view the page that you requested. 16:47:40 If you don't have one, request a new account. 16:47:54 http://www.w3.org/Help/Account/ 16:47:55 This is supposed to be the privileged url: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport/annotate?testsuite_id=2 16:48:18 this is supposed to be the public (read only) url: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=2 16:48:48 both of them ask form user/password 16:48:49 Okay. I'll touch base with the gate keeper, and see if I can get him to change that. 16:49:20 joanie should have access, since she is an 'invited expert' (and she has her credentials set up). 16:49:23 clown, ok thanks 16:49:58 wlcm. 16:50:18 so 16:50:24 anything else in this topic? 16:50:28 comments, questions, doubtS? 16:50:45 nope from me 16:50:47 nope 16:51:46 #topic Marketing 16:51:47 jjmarin, ? 16:51:59 yes 16:52:28 #info Juanjo is working in improved content for ATK entry in the wikipedia 16:53:33 #info He has some holes in his understanding of ATK and AT-SPI 16:54:01 I think I will write API with some questions :-) 16:54:18 ok 16:54:22 jjmarin, is that not generated? 16:54:23 as soon as you have a text 16:54:29 I can review it 16:54:45 magpie: what do you mean ? 16:55:06 or something you could generate from the comments using mallard/doctools stuff? 16:55:37 nope, it is for the wikipedia. It has to be a text easy to understand 16:56:03 oh sorry i thought you meant the actual api document 16:56:04 it is not to drop ATK documentation in the wikipedia 16:56:14 magpie: ok :-) 16:56:37 do you have a link? 16:57:02 and the merge email from API makes me think my understanding is worse I think 16:57:21 yeah that was complicate 16:57:51 well, the idea is just explain what it is 16:58:01 and then add links to gnome documentation and gnome api reference pages 16:58:21 magpie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessibility_Toolkit 16:58:23 in any case, as soon as you have a text to review, I will not have any problem to review it 16:58:57 API: ok, I'll email you ;-) 16:59:07 and even ask you 16:59:40 ok, so anything else? 16:59:58 there could be a section on atk in gnome-shell, that'd be handy :-) 17:00:21 do you mean in the wikipedia ? 17:00:35 aye! 17:01:03 there is a section on that page for "User Interface", and it lists GNOME Shell already. 17:01:07 well, for gnome-shell, just saying that it is accessible, and have built-in accessible features (like magnifier) would be enough 17:01:22 here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessibility_Toolkit 17:01:28 yes. 17:02:03 in any case, we are slightly over time 17:02:06 there is a "table" near the bottom that lists all sorts of thing that use ATK on GNOME. 17:02:14 *sorts of things 17:02:35 so I will move on if you don't mind 17:02:44 fine with me. 17:02:47 #topic Miscellaneous time 17:02:48 i have some questions but not re: marketing is the general bit coming? 17:02:50 oh 17:02:54 cool 17:03:13 #info This week we have been discussing on IRC about pyatspi2 deprecation in favor 17:03:19 is there a specific deadline for 3.12 proposals? 17:03:38 #info of pure python gobject-introspected bindings, and also about atk and at-spi2 merge 17:03:41 * magpie lets API do the infos 17:04:00 #info API sent a email summarizing all what involves that to -devel list 17:04:01 https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2013-October/msg00014.html 17:04:15 #info after some discussion a wiki page will be created 17:04:25 #info probably this task will be postponed after 3.12 17:04:40 magpie, about your question 17:04:47 do you mean 3.12 feature proposals? 17:05:54 yep though i am not exactly certain how a 'feature' is defined wrt the lines between it and say, an enhancement or bug 17:06:39 magpie, well there was always a vague line about that 17:06:56 in general feature is something that dractically change user interaction 17:07:05 and that that are material to release notes 17:07:12 mousetweaks in g-s would likely be a feature right? 17:07:29 what would high dpi scaling for the magnifier be? 17:07:38 moustweaks: yes probably 17:07:49 but in any case, probably that doens't need to be proposed 17:07:59 as the idea is having something giving the same functioanlity 17:08:04 and we are still discussing how 17:08:15 and about dpi scaling for the magnifier 17:08:16 ah yes, that makes sense 17:08:21 not sure 17:08:27 that seems like part of the dpi support 17:08:36 not like a feature itlsef 17:09:09 ok good thought it worth checking just in case. 17:09:18 what is your plan for tinting? 17:09:43 well, tinting was already proposed on previously releases 17:09:55 and was automatically moved to next release 17:10:05 as caret tracking was also moved to following releases before 17:10:11 * magpie has not run g-s recently to know the status of the at-spi2-core bug mgorse is workin on 17:10:14 so I will not propose it again 17:10:20 tinting functionality has been there for a long time. The "only" thing missing is a dialog for users to use to make use of it. 17:10:26 is already included as a feature that we will tackle on 17:10:48 magpie, we already talked about htat 17:11:01 we are waiting for mgorse proposal for asyn API for at-spi2-core 17:11:12 is already included? can you clarify that sentence I didn't understand what you meant there? 17:11:12 that proposal will also include (afaiu) 17:11:17 extra information on events 17:11:23 that are part of the solution for that bug 17:11:30 ah ok 17:12:13 does it still have a control center problem? 17:12:55 control center problem right now is managed with 3.10 fix, it is, setting manually the waiting time 17:13:06 as I said, the final (aka "good") solution for that 17:13:13 is part of the proposal mike gorse is working on 17:13:15 i should be able to check that today anyway 17:13:33 ok 17:13:39 so, 15 minutes over meeting time 17:13:43 is there a deadline for that proposal? 17:14:00 we can't put deadlines on a work that is done purely on volunteer time 17:14:06 btw, happy hallowe'en everyone! 17:14:13 mgorse already knows that as soon as possible the better 17:14:17 * magpie loves halloween 17:14:43 i was just wondering if i could help 17:14:44 is anyone wearing a costume? 17:14:44 ok, that is the sign that the achieved totally miscellaneous time 17:14:57 * clown sadly, is not wearing a costume. 17:15:11 always when on IRC clown :-) 17:15:13 * clown exactly, API. 17:15:19 today: cinderella! 17:15:31 tomorrow: shrek 17:15:39 glass slippers? Watch out for your feet! 17:15:41 I have a costume, Im disguised as myself 17:15:44 having said so 17:15:46 closing meeting 17:15:49 tis ok i'm sat down ha 17:15:53 ok API thanks 17:15:54 * clown was hoping for skeletor, API 17:15:58 thanks everybody for coming and giving feedback 17:16:03 thanks API. Gotta run. 17:16:09 clown, I already used it, when I was 10 years old 17:16:11 it's an hour and 15 minutes over for me... 17:16:12 turrah 17:16:17 it is not a good idea repeat costumes 17:16:18 * clown waves bye! 17:16:33 people would say that you lack imagination 17:16:43 * API thinks that still have a photo of that 17:16:47 soo 17:16:48 * clown wants to see a picture of API in his skeletor cosutme when was 10 years old. 17:16:51 #endmeeting