16:00:27 <API> #startmeeting
16:00:27 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Oct 24 16:00:27 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:27 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:41 <API> #topic 5 minutes of margin before real meeting starts
16:00:59 <API> meanwhile we wait
16:01:14 <API> H115, could you introduce yourself? I think that we didn't meet before
16:05:19 <jjmarin> Hi !
16:05:37 <jjmarin> Is there meeting today ?
16:05:55 <joanie> i didn't have time to do the minutes or agenda
16:05:56 <joanie> sorry
16:05:57 <joanie> but yes
16:06:04 * joanie has been busy hacking
16:06:13 * clown waves
16:06:21 <jjmarin> hi clown !
16:06:47 <jjmarin> joanie: don't worry. I've been diconnected for a while
16:07:53 <clown> the agenda is old.  or, at leat this one is:  https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting_.2817_October.29
16:07:57 <API> well, today we gave 2 extra minutes
16:08:10 <joanie> 16:05:55 <@joanie> i didn't have time to do the minutes or agenda
16:08:10 <joanie> 16:05:55 <@joanie> sorry
16:08:12 <API> clown, this is what you happen when you arrive late ;)
16:08:26 <clown> i can live with that, API  :-)
16:08:28 <API> in any case, we will reuse the agenda of last week
16:08:34 <API> and having said so
16:08:41 * clown looks foward to boston summit recap.
16:08:53 * clown ;-)
16:08:59 <API> well, reuse except for the boston summit
16:09:15 <API> I will tweak a little that
16:09:29 <API> #topic Wayland situation
16:09:52 <API> #info Wayland ml threads are ongoing but without too much activity
16:10:01 <API> #info probably it would be good to ping in order to reactivate the fire
16:10:29 <API> #info joanie has been working on keep testing wayland, she can provide more details later
16:10:35 <joanie> heh
16:11:01 <API> #info joanie+API have been talking about the solution of gnome-shell under wayland, that is in short solve the multi-toolkit atk implementation problem
16:11:30 <API> #info API will send a email explaining his proposal, and asking for suggestions
16:11:39 <API> and nothing more from my side
16:11:41 <API> joanie¿
16:11:46 <API> joanie?
16:11:51 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=710470
16:11:51 <tota11y> 04Bug 710470: critical, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Wayland: Reliable crash when typing in a text view with the magnifier enabled
16:12:13 <joanie> also found https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=705504
16:12:13 <tota11y> 04Bug 705504: normal, Normal, ---, amigadave, NEW, 3.10: make on-screen keyboard work under wayland
16:12:31 <joanie> so on top of the multi toolkit stuff, we have non-functional mag and osk
16:12:39 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility/Wayland
16:12:46 <joanie> is where all updates are going
16:12:49 <joanie> at least those from me
16:12:58 <joanie> lastly
16:13:15 <API> ah true, that wiki page is new
16:13:21 <joanie> #info We will also need a wayland equivalent of xmodmap (i.e. someway to change keymapping)
16:13:38 <joanie> There was a possibly-related set of patches I saw on the Wayland list
16:13:46 <joanie> but I didn't look at them other than to take note
16:13:54 <joanie> anyhoo, I think that's it from me
16:14:06 <joanie> oh one more thing
16:14:10 <jjmarin> it seems Wayland is going to be the source of many headaches :-/
16:14:15 <joanie> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2013-October/msg00010.html
16:14:18 <joanie> crickets
16:14:25 <joanie> now I'm done
16:14:27 <joanie> :)
16:14:43 * API looking
16:14:53 <API> ah well, yes
16:15:00 <API> that is one of the threads that need a ping
16:15:05 <API> in any case
16:15:15 <API> questions, comments doubts?
16:15:26 <joanie> are you going to ping API?
16:15:34 <joanie> my pings tend to go ignored
16:15:39 <API> I'm going to ping myself?
16:15:51 <jjmarin> yes !!! :-)
16:15:53 * clown is surprsed that accerciser dies with wayland backend.
16:15:54 <joanie> yes API that's exactly what I meant
16:15:56 <joanie> :P
16:16:07 <joanie> clown: nah, it's the wnck crap
16:16:18 <joanie> wnck's gotta go
16:16:19 <clown> "wnck" ?
16:16:21 <API> in any case, just in case you were meaning other thing, yes, I was planning to send the pings
16:16:41 <joanie> https://developer.gnome.org/libwnck/stable/overview.html
16:16:46 <joanie> accerciser uses it
16:16:48 <joanie> orca sorta does
16:17:02 <joanie> I removed the stuff that causes the segfault from orca
16:17:08 <joanie> but that means a feature is broken
16:17:17 <joanie> and that is what the ml thread is about
16:17:24 <joanie> the zorder stuff
16:17:43 <joanie> (done I think)
16:18:05 <clown> I recall that gnome-shell has its own window manager, but I don't know if the functionality there is the same as for libwnck
16:18:14 <API> well, with wayland
16:18:22 <API> gnome-shell will be the wayland compositor
16:18:31 <API> that, as far as I understand, is somehting
16:18:44 <API> like gnome-shell being an implemention of X
16:18:48 <API> in general
16:18:49 <API> with wayland
16:18:54 <API> wayland is "smaller"
16:19:02 <API> and a lot of stuff is delegated to the clients
16:19:23 <API> this raise a lot of questions about stuff that should be the same in any wayland
16:19:26 <API> like a11y
16:19:52 <API> ideally I would like to avoid kde+wayland needing to re-implement a lot of stuff
16:19:59 <API> in any case, and after this rant
16:20:06 <API> moving to next point?
16:20:30 <jjmarin> why do you mention kde ?
16:21:25 <API> jjmarin, well, because I guess that eventually
16:21:30 <API> kde will also move to wayland
16:21:34 <API> it was just an example
16:21:56 <API> what I mean is that I assume that gnome-shell will not be the only wayland environment we will find
16:22:05 <API> but as far as I see, some of the solutions people are proposing
16:22:09 <API> are gnome-shell specific
16:22:23 <jjmarin> ok, I thought it was about to implement sth in common with kde
16:22:37 <API> well, at this moment we have enough with gnome ;)
16:22:46 <API> but as some threads are at the wayland ml
16:22:54 <jjmarin> hehe, true :-)
16:23:09 <API> ideally it would be good an answer like "oh yes, you can use this method on wayland to do that"
16:23:27 <API> instead of "well, that seems like something the specific compositor should provide"
16:23:56 <API> having said so
16:24:03 <API> #topic 3.12 updates
16:24:21 <API> #info the situation haven't changed too much since last meeting
16:24:28 <API> #info you can read it as soon as minutes are available
16:24:40 <API> #info just mention one tasks that I forgot to mention on that meeting
16:24:46 <API> #info Medium: PDF accessibility
16:24:56 <API> #info PDF accessibility improvements are also planned for 3.12
16:24:58 <API> done
16:25:10 <API> I know that it is somewhat lazy point to previous meeting
16:25:26 <joanie> any updates on the at-spi2 worker thread stuff?
16:25:27 <API> but not a lot happened since last week, so it would be just repeating myself
16:25:32 <API> mgorse, ^
16:25:50 <API> mgorse, not sure if you are waiting more input from the list
16:25:57 <API> from the last emails
16:26:05 <API> there are still some open questions, afaik
16:26:19 <API> so not sure if you took a look, in order to have a clearer idea/proposal
16:26:56 <mgorse> Hmm. There might be. I've started working on adding the ability to send properties with events
16:27:14 <mgorse> Anyway, yeah, probably I should come up with a more definite API and propose it
16:27:50 <API> mgorse, ok, I will wait for that proposal
16:28:01 <API> I'm curious to see how some tricky stuff would be managed
16:28:34 <API> like for example, how to request on the event the offsets for a substring
16:28:36 <mgorse> #action mgorse will propose more specific API for being asynchronous and email the list
16:28:50 <API> mgorse, ok, thank you very much
16:29:55 <mgorse> It might need some iterations; there could be cases that it should handle that we'll need to figure out
16:30:02 <API> yes,
16:30:12 <API> obviously this will not be trivial
16:30:24 <API> for the same reason is good start it at the beginning of the cycle
16:30:45 <mgorse> right
16:30:50 <API> and probably at-spi2 will add some API, and when Orca start to use it, we will find things to refine
16:30:56 <API> this is sw after all
16:31:14 <API> in any case
16:31:20 <API> more on this topic?
16:31:23 <API> questions, doubts?
16:33:25 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:33:27 <API> clown?
16:33:59 <clown> no news this week.
16:34:23 <clown> Just a lot of edits to documents/tests.
16:34:29 <clown> is that worth info'ing?
16:35:28 <API> yes,
16:35:36 <API> we are in the topic so ...
16:35:44 <clown> oky doky
16:36:57 <clown> #info Fnal edits and tests are being done to/for the User Agent Implementation Guide
16:37:19 <clown> #info The purpose of these final changes is to go "last call" by early November.
16:37:28 <clown> questions?
16:37:43 <API> nope from my side
16:37:58 <jjmarin> me neither
16:38:36 <clown> does joanie have any updates re: W3C and her (almost?) new found expert status?
16:38:44 <joanie> not yet
16:38:46 <joanie> been busy
16:38:47 <joanie> sorry
16:38:58 <clown> no problem.  Just curious.
16:39:10 <jjmarin> how much expertise in this meeting :-)
16:39:18 <joanie> i promise to share the news when we have news to share :)
16:39:37 <API> ok, so then lets move
16:39:41 <API> #topic Marketing
16:39:46 <clown> jjmarin:  a very small number ??
16:39:46 <API> jjmarin, your turn
16:39:59 <jjmarin> #info the marketing front is very quite lately, just a tweet or something like that AFAIR
16:40:08 <jjmarin> I've been sick at home, but I want start something in the next days.
16:40:14 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will start to update in the gnome a11y content in the wikipedia
16:40:30 <jjmarin> do you want anything more marketing ?
16:40:33 <jjmarin> :-)
16:41:04 <jjmarin> done ! unless you have qestions or suggestions
16:41:56 <API> jjmarin, just curious, do  you usually attend marketing meetings, or just collaborate with them when accessibility needs to be managed?
16:42:49 <jjmarin> I don't like phone meetings, but I am in the engagement irc meetings when possible
16:43:25 <API> jjmarin, do they meet regularly or when they think that need to talk about something?
16:43:38 <API> (btw, didn't know that were phone meetings)
16:44:08 <jjmarin> lately the phone meeting doesn't work, so they turn irc meetings
16:44:26 <jjmarin> it is supposed to be bi-weekly
16:44:33 <API> ok, thank you
16:44:36 <jjmarin> but it is not very regular
16:44:42 <API> that fulfill my curiosity
16:44:48 <jjmarin> Today there is a meeting
16:45:05 <API> uh, so not bi-weekly, but "bi-weekly"
16:45:22 <API> in any case, I already bothered enough with questions, any other?
16:46:01 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
16:46:11 <API> something not scheduled to talk about?
16:46:44 <joanie> mgorse: in terms of reimbursement for your trip to montreal, I'll need scanned receipts and a blog post that explicitly thanks gnome for sponsoring you
16:47:07 <joanie> bonus points for a blog post that sounds like we accomplished many things
16:48:27 <jjmarin> I am curious about the status about the task for homogenizing the keyboard navigation within GNOME shell and widgets
16:48:41 <API> look at the sky, a bird!
16:48:44 * API running away
16:48:53 <API> jjmarin, jokes apart
16:48:54 <clown> nah, that's bat!
16:49:08 <API> yes I need to write that, and send a email to d_d-l
16:49:14 <API> *d-d-l
16:49:21 <jjmarin> :-)
16:49:41 * jjmarin was looking the sky :-)
16:50:02 <API> good, birds are animals to be care of
16:50:16 <API> well, I think that birds was miscelleanous enough
16:50:21 <API> so I will close the meeting
16:50:32 <API> #endmeeting