1 16:05:38 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:05:38 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Aug 29 16:05:38 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:05:38 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:05:46 <API> joanie, without themuso?
   5 16:05:52 <joanie> dunno
   6 16:05:55 <joanie> up to you
   7 16:06:47 <clown> wow, what a crowd.
   8 16:06:56 <joanie> heh
   9 16:07:02 <joanie> actually, new topic
  10 16:07:10 <joanie> MouseTrappers!
  11 16:07:16 <API> hmm ok
  12 16:07:19 <jjmarin> :-)
  13 16:07:19 <joanie> API could you topic that?
  14 16:07:24 <API> #topic Mousetrap updates
  15 16:07:25 <heidie> HI, we're mostly going to listen.
  16 16:07:31 <joanie> heidie: too late
  17 16:07:32 <joanie> :P
  18 16:07:35 <API> heidie, I think that is your topic ;)
  19 16:07:37 <heidie> :-) Tha's fine.
  20 16:07:42 <heidie> OK, we can do this!
  21 16:07:43 <API> but please, be short as today agenda is full
  22 16:07:53 <joanie> Heidie is not especially tall
  23 16:07:53 <heidie> Yes, we'll be brief.
  24 16:07:56 <joanie> :P
  25 16:08:01 <heidie> :-)
  26 16:08:05 <joanie> snarky minion is snarky
  27 16:08:08 * joanie quiets down
  28 16:08:13 * clown feels like miscellaneous time already.
  29 16:08:15 <heidie> This is the second class meeting for our Software Engineering class.
  30 16:08:26 <heidie> We've got six students who are going to push on MouseTrap for the semester.
  31 16:08:35 <joanie> woo hoo!
  32 16:08:36 <heidie> And we're just getting up to speed on IRC channels and stuff.
  33 16:08:40 <heidie> :-) Yippee!!!
  34 16:08:46 <heidie> And that is the status report from us.
  35 16:08:49 <joanie> I am *so* psyched
  36 16:08:57 <heidie> Me too! And LoganH is in the class.
  37 16:08:59 <clown> excuse my ignroance:  what is "MouseTrap" in 25 words or less?
  38 16:09:23 <heidie> A11y app that uses camera to follow user head movement to move the cursor
  39 16:09:30 <joanie> https://wiki.gnome.org/MouseTrap
  40 16:09:32 <clown> gotcha
  41 16:09:50 <heidie> Joannie gets the succinct award :-)
  42 16:09:54 <joanie> heidie's students are bringing it back to life
  43 16:10:02 <magpie_> where are you at with it now heidie?
  44 16:10:03 <joanie> ultimately gnome3-ifying it
  45 16:10:04 <heidie> Along with at least one Drexel student.
  46 16:10:06 <clown> head tracking or eye tracking or both?
  47 16:10:14 <heidie> See joanies comment
  48 16:10:26 <heidie> Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3)
  49 16:10:51 <heidie> Head, finger, and use eyes to click.
  50 16:11:04 <heidie> It isn't working yet, and we're focusing on the forehead.
  51 16:11:04 <joanie> Yes, I didn't mean to discount Amber (Drexel student). Amber is amazing
  52 16:11:11 <magpie_> that's pretty impressive.
  53 16:11:13 * heidie nods
  54 16:11:15 <joanie> and someone I'd love to see join the A11y team
  55 16:11:34 <heidie> Yes! Me too :-)
  56 16:11:40 <joanie> I see no infos
  57 16:11:46 <joanie> fearless leader will be displeased ;)
  58 16:11:53 <joanie> heidie: would you like to info them, or shall I?
  59 16:12:03 <heidie> Sigh.. Forgot sorry.
  60 16:12:05 <heidie> I'll do it.
  61 16:12:05 <joanie> :)
  62 16:12:07 <joanie> thanks!
  63 16:12:08 <API> well, in fact joanie you are the one that usually do the meeting minutes
  64 16:12:14 <API> heidie, anyway don't worry
  65 16:12:18 <heidie> Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3)#info
  66 16:12:23 <heidie> #info Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3)
  67 16:12:32 * API waiting
  68 16:12:36 <heidie> #info Head, finger, and use eyes to click.
  69 16:12:48 <heidie> #info It isn't working yet, and we're focusing on the forehead.
  70 16:12:54 <heidie> want more?
  71 16:13:10 <API> heidie, could you #info the first thing you said on the meeting
  72 16:13:13 <API> about new peple?
  73 16:13:16 * joanie agrees
  74 16:13:16 <API> *people
  75 16:13:32 <heidie> #info This is the second class meeting for our Software Engineering class.
  76 16:13:42 <heidie> #info We've got six students who are going to push on MouseTrap for the semester.
  77 16:14:11 <heidie> #info And we're just getting up to speed on IRC channels and stuff.
  78 16:14:24 <joanie> #info Hopefully soon we'll have an upstream branch where the current work will be placed.
  79 16:14:26 <joanie> :)
  80 16:14:36 <API> heidie, ok thanks
  81 16:14:38 <joanie> When it's ready to be placed there
  82 16:14:40 <heidie> Thank you!
  83 16:14:45 <jjmarin> I hope so too :-)
  84 16:14:45 <API> having said so, and going back to the "full agenda"
  85 16:14:49 <joanie> :)
  86 16:14:51 <API> if you don't mind I will move to next topic
  87 16:15:19 <heidie> Sure!
  88 16:15:22 <API> ok
  89 16:15:32 <API> so moving to the agenda, will move to short topics
  90 16:15:37 <API> while we wait for themuso
  91 16:15:47 <API> #topic Bug 707010: atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible
  92 16:15:47 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707010 normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible
  93 16:16:06 <API> #info API detected a bug that prevents using atspi listener on javascript code
  94 16:16:25 <API> #info specifically, in a program using gjs context (so c+javascript)
  95 16:16:53 <magpie_> like the tracker
  96 16:16:53 <API> #info the problems seems to be that the methods are loaded
  97 16:17:06 <API> #info all of them, doesn't matter if they are used or not
  98 16:17:32 <API> #info jasper recognizes that it seems a gjs bug, but not plan to fix that son
  99 16:17:35 <magpie_> java does something like that
 100 16:17:54 <API> #info my proposal is skip that method at the gobject-introspection phase
 101 16:18:15 <API> #info taking into account that that methods doesn't conform gobject-introspection format, I think that makes sense
 102 16:18:19 <clown> I meant to have a look at this yesterday, but didn't find the time.
 103 16:18:33 <API> #info to do that we need to ensure that is not used, looking at pyatspi2 I didn't found anything
 104 16:18:36 <API> done
 105 16:18:38 <clown> The error message is familiar, but I can't remember where I saw it before.
 106 16:18:45 <API> well
 107 16:18:48 <clown> Or, if indeed I saw it before.
 108 16:18:50 <API> taking into account jasper words
 109 16:18:52 <API> and as I said
 110 16:19:04 <API> the fact that this kind of errors are sometimes warnings that become errors
 111 16:19:12 <API> probably at some moment of the past, it was just a warning
 112 16:19:16 <API> or was not happening
 113 16:19:21 <magpie_> the tracker has always had the error but it didn't seem to affect it
 114 16:19:29 <mgorse> I think I added it as a C convenience function
 115 16:19:43 <mgorse> but then the C API that I created is a complete piece of crap and probably isn't very usable
 116 16:19:45 <clown> right.  We had a fully functioning tracker as of mid July (I think).
 117 16:20:04 <API> jasper words == "the import system is absolutely dreadful"
 118 16:20:08 <mgorse> Anyway, yeah, skipping seems to make sense. Not sure if I should email the release team, or if API should do that
 119 16:20:11 <magpie_> we did but it was getting that error
 120 16:20:18 <API> mgorse, yes I will do that
 121 16:20:25 <magpie_> it maybe is only been affected by some other change i'm not sure
 122 16:20:28 <API> I wanted to raise this here
 123 16:20:34 <API> to ask you personally
 124 16:20:36 * clown notes that I was saying "right" to magpie_'s comment  not mgorse's "piece of crap" comment.
 125 16:20:37 <API> you==mgorse
 126 16:20:44 <API> if you think that that method is not used, so safe to skip
 127 16:20:46 * joanie smiles at clown
 128 16:20:52 <magpie_> API what does this mean in practical terms?
 129 16:21:01 <API> magpie_, in practical terms
 130 16:21:06 <mgorse> I added (skip) to a few of those a while ago, but I guess I missed some
 131 16:21:07 <magpie_> what will i need to change?
 132 16:21:07 <API> means that the method will be still on C API
 133 16:21:19 <API> but as it is skipped on gobject introspection phase
 134 16:21:29 <API> it will not be available for gobject introspected bindings
 135 16:21:35 <API> like python or javascript
 136 16:21:46 <API> not being available to javascript is what we want, after all
 137 16:21:57 <API> magpie_, you don't need to change anything
 138 16:22:05 <API> if we agreed to go with that
 139 16:22:06 <clown> which means:  we have to find a new way to create an atspi event listener in the tracker?
 140 16:22:14 <API> we will push that commit on at-spi2-core
 141 16:22:29 <API> and you just need to be sure to use last at-spi2-core while working
 142 16:22:34 <API> clown, no
 143 16:22:44 <clown> okay, explain, please.
 144 16:22:48 <API> ok sorry
 145 16:22:51 <API> the failing method is
 146 16:22:54 * mgorse goes to comment on the bug
 147 16:23:05 <API> atspi_event_listener_register_no_data
 148 16:23:14 <API> this is not used at all at the code of the magnifier
 149 16:23:14 * clown sounds familiar
 150 16:23:28 <API> but it seems that, as jasper said:
 151 16:23:39 <API> "when we import the module we scan through the typelib and
 152 16:23:39 <API> define all functions/method"
 153 16:23:40 <clown> but the constructor for the event listener calls it, ultimately?
 154 16:23:47 <API> so when using a correct atspi event method
 155 16:23:53 <API> the wrong one is also loaded
 156 16:23:57 <API> and everything fails
 157 16:24:02 <magpie_> gotcha
 158 16:24:05 <API> <clown> but the constructor for the event listener calls it, ultimately?
 159 16:24:07 <API> no
 160 16:24:21 <API> this is the same reason I think that the best solution is skipping the failing method
 161 16:24:44 <API> but I wanted to reaise this here
 162 16:24:50 <API> just in case was used in another place
 163 16:24:55 <API> looking at pyatspi2 it was not used
 164 16:25:04 <API> and obviously at gnome-shell was not
 165 16:25:06 * joanie didn't even know it existed
 166 16:25:07 <clown> let me try this then:  the funcition is pulled in via the import statement and that causes the barf?
 167 16:25:09 <API> but paranoid me wanted to check
 168 16:25:25 <API> clown, not exactly at that moment
 169 16:25:28 <magpie_> it might explain the problems running the tracker recently
 170 16:25:33 <API> when the first atspi method is called
 171 16:25:38 <API> but yes
 172 16:25:41 <magpie_> i'm still not sure why it was ok in the past though
 173 16:25:44 <clown> ah.
 174 16:25:45 <API> magpie_, we will talk about that later
 175 16:25:49 <clown> any atspi method?
 176 16:26:01 <API> clown, any atspi method from atspievent
 177 16:26:18 <clown> that's beginning to make sense now.  Thanks API.
 178 16:26:23 <API> no problem
 179 16:26:24 <magpie_> what abotut atspidevicelistener?
 180 16:26:36 <API> magpie_, didn't test
 181 16:26:45 <API> but it doesnt matter, as atspievent are also needed
 182 16:26:49 <API> <magpie_> i'm still not sure why it was ok in the past though
 183 16:26:53 <API> I already guessed that
 184 16:26:55 <API> in the past
 185 16:26:57 <API> several times
 186 16:27:05 <API> stuff that were merely warnings became errors
 187 16:27:43 <API> taking into account last comment on the bug
 188 16:27:46 <API> and this conversation
 189 16:27:58 <API> #info general consensus (included maintainer) is skip that method
 190 16:28:08 <API> #action API will request an API freeze request
 191 16:28:23 * API notices that last sentence sounds weird
 192 16:28:26 * API shrugs
 193 16:28:32 <joanie> freeze break
 194 16:28:37 <joanie> but I'll clean it up in the minutes
 195 16:28:38 * clown loves that last sentence.
 196 16:28:41 <API> so more questions, doubts, comments?
 197 16:28:43 <magpie_> make an api freeze request?
 198 16:28:52 <clown> freeze break, actually.
 199 16:29:00 <API> magpie_, yes sorry
 200 16:29:06 <API> is an api freeze break request
 201 16:29:11 <API> we are right now on api freeze
 202 16:29:26 <API> that means that modules that want to be included on 3.10 shouldn't change their public APIs
 203 16:29:30 <API> and if they need to
 204 16:29:41 <API> they need to ask for a freeze break request to the release team
 205 16:29:45 <API> justifying why
 206 16:29:57 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Schedule
 207 16:29:58 <magpie_> https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointNine
 208 16:30:08 <API> so
 209 16:30:20 <API> questions, doubts, comments, moving next topic?
 210 16:30:37 <magpie_> nothing from me thanks API
 211 16:30:47 <clown> yes, thanks for the explanation API
 212 16:31:29 <API> ok
 213 16:31:39 <API> taking into account that is more that 30 minutes in the meeting
 214 16:31:50 <API> I will officially postpone the topics that are related with TheMuso
 215 16:31:52 <API> joanie, ?
 216 16:31:57 <joanie> sounds good API
 217 16:31:58 <joanie> sorry
 218 16:32:03 <joanie> he told me he'd be here
 219 16:32:08 <API> no problem
 220 16:32:12 <API> #topic Orca preferences/configuration GUI abstraction/separation.
 221 16:32:17 <API> #info postponed
 222 16:32:22 <jjmarin> I guess he didn't get right the timezone
 223 16:32:25 <API> #topic At-spi and desktop environment compositors using Wayland/Mir.
 224 16:32:29 <API> #topic postponed
 225 16:32:34 <joanie> jjmarin: yeah, I don't even know where he is
 226 16:32:40 <API> #topic Extending at-spi to support touch gestures.
 227 16:32:43 <joanie> I think he's traveling
 228 16:32:46 <API> #info postponed
 229 16:32:55 <API> #topic At-spi and desktop environment compositors using Wayland/Mir.
 230 16:32:57 <API> #info postponed
 231 16:33:00 <API> (sorry for the noise)
 232 16:33:10 <mgorse> Should some of this be discussed on g-a-devel?
 233 16:33:10 <joanie> no, it needed minuting
 234 16:33:12 <joanie> thanks for doing it
 235 16:33:30 <mgorse> or it could be if Luke isn't here, at least
 236 16:33:34 <API> mgorse, yeah probably that would be a good idea
 237 16:33:37 <joanie> mgorse: at some point Luke will probably say "oh crap!" and then we can suggest that
 238 16:33:39 <API> we can suggest that to Luke
 239 16:33:40 <joanie> :)
 240 16:33:48 <API> that is other option
 241 16:33:54 <API> anyway, moving
 242 16:34:03 <API> #topic GSoC updates
 243 16:34:08 <API> who wants to start?
 244 16:34:23 <magpie_> clown?
 245 16:34:27 <clown> sure.
 246 16:35:00 <clown> #info end of last week, Joseph worked with Magdalen in IRC preparing the latest patch for the tracker + magnifier
 247 16:35:33 <clown> #info mostly were working on the tracker code at that time.  More specifically Joseph was asking about that.
 248 16:35:49 <clown> #info Magdalen posted a patch to the bugzilla on Mon.
 249 16:35:58 <clown> #info Jasper reivewed and Joseph reviewed.
 250 16:36:10 <clown> s/reivewed/reviewed/
 251 16:36:37 <clown> done for now.  I think I'm beginning to tread on magpie_'s updates, so I'll turn it over to her.
 252 16:37:14 <magpie_> #info Magdalen has had a lot of problems testing the files and hopes that the problem API found will make testing easier from here
 253 16:38:25 <magpie_> #info Magdalen intends to get the next patch out as soon as possible and for it to be fully working
 254 16:38:57 * API wonders is magpie_ finished or not
 255 16:39:10 <magpie_> #info Magdalen is not sure where the current work sits in the timeline
 256 16:39:56 <magpie_> https://google-melange.appspot.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/magpie/1
 257 16:40:20 <magpie_> 26 August - 6 September: UI Creation for GNOME 3.12
 258 16:40:24 <magpie_> 1. Add gsettings for the different modes of displaying the region of interest within the magnified view (centered, proportional, or push)
 259 16:40:28 <magpie_> 2. Propose UI for inclusion in gnome-control-center
 260 16:40:32 <magpie_> 3. Seek and respond to feedback from the Design Team
 261 16:40:34 <magpie_> in terms of 2. and 3
 262 16:40:56 <clown> number 1 is done.
 263 16:41:21 <joanie> and 2 and 3 seem like they are irrelevant until the focus and caret tracking is in place
 264 16:41:26 <API> well, current work in not related at all with that
 265 16:41:36 <API> joanie said the same but with better words
 266 16:42:13 <magpie_> how soon will mgorse be able to fix the eventlistener stuff?
 267 16:42:26 <magpie_> will he need any help??
 268 16:42:38 <joanie> magpie_: API provided a patch
 269 16:42:39 <magpie_> help?
 270 16:42:39 <API> magpie_, the patch is already there
 271 16:42:41 <joanie> you could use that patch
 272 16:42:43 <API> he approved that
 273 16:43:02 <API> so as I said, it will on master as soon as we get the freeze break request
 274 16:43:02 <magpie_> great thanks mgorse
 275 16:43:05 <magpie_> lifesaver
 276 16:43:07 <API> but, you can go on with your work
 277 16:43:11 <mgorse> magpie_: The patch is on bug 707010. You can apply it locally for the time being if it'll help you
 278 16:43:11 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707010 normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible
 279 16:43:18 <API> using temporaly that patch
 280 16:43:29 <joanie> magpie_: in other words, you are not blocked by that
 281 16:43:46 <mgorse> And thank API, really
 282 16:44:05 <magpie_> cool it should be ok from here then
 283 16:44:26 <magpie_> yeah thanks API for spotting that
 284 16:44:38 <API> btw, I miss something from the infos
 285 16:44:47 <API> I have been reading logs from yesterday
 286 16:44:47 * clown and the crowd leaves...
 287 16:44:57 <API> one of the leasson learnt yesterday
 288 16:45:08 <API> is that if the patch uploaded is known to not be working
 289 16:45:19 <API> the usual thing is adding a disclaimer
 290 16:46:12 <API> so just in case
 291 16:46:17 <magpie_> ok
 292 16:46:19 <API> do we agreed that for any future patch
 293 16:46:29 <API> if that is the case the disclaimer will be added?
 294 16:46:41 <clown> +1
 295 16:46:42 <magpie_> certainly not a problem hopefully it won't be needed now though
 296 16:47:07 <joanie> +1 to always adding the state of the patch
 297 16:47:16 <API> magpie_, your plan is uploading a working patch then?
 298 16:47:19 <joanie> and explicitly asking for a review when a review is expected
 299 16:47:55 <magpie_> yeah I can do that
 300 16:48:19 <joanie> can do what?
 301 16:49:04 <magpie_> i was not clear on the protocol before hence why i had been asking but I will make sure it's clear what the patches are about in future, now that I know
 302 16:50:03 <clown> well, just speaking for myself, my experience has been:  if the patch isn't working, we don't want to hear about it.  But, maybe that's just me.
 303 16:50:15 <clown> I mean for patches I have uploaded.
 304 16:50:40 <clown> so, I it is good to get clarification on the protocol
 305 16:50:46 <API> well that is true from the maintainers pov
 306 16:50:52 <API> in some cases
 307 16:50:56 <API> wip patches are uploaded
 308 16:51:05 <API> if more of one person is working on the bug
 309 16:51:15 <API> but in that case
 310 16:51:17 <joanie> clown: During yesterday's chat in #a11y, magpie_ indicated that she wants to upload patches whenever she saw fit. That's fine. But then it needs to be clear what their state is.
 311 16:51:23 <API> it is always labelled as that
 312 16:51:31 <API> that==wip
 313 16:52:14 <magpie_> i'd have held off on that patch to be honest joanie
 314 16:52:22 <clown> right, joanie.  That's why I suggested taking patching offline of the bug itself:  again, my experience has been to not upload a patch until it is working.
 315 16:52:31 <clown> *on the bug itself.
 316 16:52:34 * joanie nods at clown
 317 16:53:00 <clown> however, if going forward the protocol is:  "this is a wip patch", then I'm fine with that.
 318 16:53:07 <clown> I just want to know what the correct policy is.
 319 16:53:14 <joanie> there is no correct policy
 320 16:53:24 <magpie_> it's not whenever I see fit i just don't want to have to wait when i do know a patch is working
 321 16:53:25 <joanie> but clearly we have had a rather epic failure to communicate
 322 16:54:14 <API> magpie_, but the problem is that that patch was not working
 323 16:54:18 <magpie_> agreed but we are communicating now so its not that epic
 324 16:54:23 <API> we are are saying that if a patch is working
 325 16:54:27 <API> it is worth to upload it
 326 16:54:31 <API> but that was not the case
 327 16:54:52 <magpie_> API i was saying I had not tested it and i felt it was unlikely in that case it would work
 328 16:55:42 <API> well, I don't want to discuss what we said and what we didn't say that day, as we already have a conclusion
 329 16:55:45 <API> so lets move one
 330 16:55:56 <API> anything else in this topic?
 331 16:55:56 <clown> anything to info here?
 332 16:56:13 <API> ok, I will summarize it
 333 16:56:19 <API> as I asked to bring that topic
 334 16:56:39 <API> #info bugzilla is a tool to report bugs, and provide patches that solves the bug
 335 16:57:28 <API> #info usually, those patches are finished (so working) and tested patches
 336 16:57:54 <API> #info if that is not the case, but the developer things that it is worth to upload it, the usual is adding a disclaimer
 337 16:58:07 <API> done
 338 16:58:10 <API> anything else
 339 16:58:10 <API> ?
 340 16:58:25 <clown> on the tracker?
 341 16:58:29 <clown> yes.
 342 16:58:49 <API> clown, well, on the GSoC updates
 343 16:59:06 <clown> magpie_ can you summarize how you are going to test that the tracker is working?
 344 16:59:36 <clown> in the magnifier?
 345 16:59:58 <clown> I hope this is a fair question.
 346 17:00:11 <magpie_> #action Magdalen is going to apply Mike Gorse's patch and start testing the work and then make the last changes that need to be done to get the patch ready
 347 17:01:08 <magpie_> #info there are a couple of warnings in the magnifier that also need to be looked at
 348 17:02:18 <magpie_> #help Magdalen is not sure whether to fix them separately from the magnifier work
 349 17:02:34 * clown didn't know there was 'help' command.
 350 17:02:45 * API neither
 351 17:02:59 * clown neat
 352 17:03:13 <magpie_> Magdalen has been reading the meetbot manual
 353 17:03:21 <API> clown do you want to say something in relation with the last comment by magpie_ ?
 354 17:03:29 <jjmarin> tota11y said: Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 355 17:03:29 <tota11y> jjmarin: Error: "said:" is not a valid command.
 356 17:03:45 * magpie_ wasn't sure if that was worthy of an info
 357 17:03:45 * joanie pats the bot on the head
 358 17:04:03 <clown> I still watn to deal with the testing procedure.
 359 17:04:09 <clown> *want
 360 17:04:21 <clown> How do we know that the tracker is working in the magnifier?
 361 17:04:31 <magpie_> good question
 362 17:04:47 <clown> I have ideas, and I could outline them.
 363 17:05:10 <clown> but I don't want to step on magpie_'s toes if she has already thought about this, and has ideas of her own.
 364 17:05:11 <magpie_> ok clown sure that might be useful to hear about
 365 17:05:18 <clown> Okay.
 366 17:05:26 <API> clown, magpie_ not sure if that is material for the meeting
 367 17:05:31 <API> as we are over time
 368 17:05:43 <API> could you resume that chatting later on #a11y IRC?
 369 17:05:52 <API> just one more topic and we all would be free
 370 17:06:01 <clown> Okay, well, it speaks to whether the patch is deemed "working", but sure.
 371 17:06:06 <clown> out of the meeting then.
 372 17:06:17 <joanie> I think it's ok for it to be in the meeting
 373 17:06:43 <API> joanie, ok
 374 17:06:46 <API> just guessing
 375 17:06:49 <API> so sorry for the noise
 376 17:06:55 <API> magpie_, clown the floor is yours
 377 17:07:00 <clown> okay, I'll try to be brief.
 378 17:07:24 <clown> 1.  Get a app that supports focus navigation via the TAB key.
 379 17:07:31 <clown> 2. Start the magnifier.
 380 17:07:45 <clown> 3.  Use th TAB key presses to move focus around that app.
 381 17:08:03 <clown> 4.  Does the focused object scroll into view?  If not, it isn't working.
 382 17:08:33 <clown> 5.  Drop into a terminal and change the tracking gsettings  — switch between centered, push, proprotional
 383 17:08:51 <clown> 6.  Does the mode of focus tracking appropriately change?
 384 17:09:13 <clown> 7. Find an app that exposes caret motion through the a11y API.
 385 17:09:34 <clown> 8.  Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5. with the text caret insertion point.
 386 17:09:41 <clown> That's it roughly.
 387 17:09:45 <clown> Questions?
 388 17:10:09 * clown foo!  I should have info'ed all of that.
 389 17:10:41 <magpie> sorry I got disconnected
 390 17:10:46 <magpie> what did I miss?
 391 17:10:48 <clown> :-)
 392 17:10:53 <clown> All of it...
 393 17:10:55 <API> we have two magpies now
 394 17:11:04 <magpie> two for joy that's good luck
 395 17:11:15 <clown> well I should have info'ed it anyway, so I'll repeat as quickly as I can.
 396 17:11:25 <clown> #info 1.  Get a app that supports focus navigation via the TAB key.
 397 17:11:33 <clown> #info 2. Start the magnifier.
 398 17:11:42 <clown> #info 3.  Use th TAB key presses to move focus around that app.
 399 17:11:49 <clown> #info 4.  Does the focused object scroll into view?  If not, it isn't working.
 400 17:12:06 <clown> #info 5.  Drop into a terminal and change the tracking gsettings  — switch between centered, push, proprotional
 401 17:12:15 <clown> #info 6.  Does the mode of focus tracking appropriately change?
 402 17:12:22 <clown> #info 7. Find an app that exposes caret motion through the a11y API.
 403 17:12:31 <clown> #info 8.  Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5. with the text caret insertion point.
 404 17:12:40 * clown not sure if magpie is still here.
 405 17:12:48 <magpie> sounds systematic. I like it.
 406 17:13:05 <clown> great!
 407 17:13:48 <joanie> thank you clown
 408 17:13:56 <clown> wlcm.
 409 17:13:57 <joanie> seems rather plan like :)
 410 17:13:57 <magpie> yeah thanks clown
 411 17:14:29 <clown> joanie, I used to test the magnifier on a dialy basis.  Mouse tracking, colour effects, etc., and so on.
 412 17:14:36 <clown> *daily
 413 17:14:43 <joanie> :)
 414 17:14:50 <joanie> I have no doubts
 415 17:14:55 <joanie> that was a lot of work
 416 17:15:32 <clown> it is.  It also has a qualitative feel, rather than a quantitative measurement.  Does it "look right"?
 417 17:15:33 * API notes that the scepter of the meeting is at magpie and clown hands
 418 17:15:40 * API wonering if they finished or not
 419 17:15:46 * clown gives up scepter
 420 17:16:13 * joanie notes that API never uses a gavel like joanie does
 421 17:16:23 <magpie> i'm a qualitative physicist so that should hopefully suit me too.
 422 17:16:24 <joanie> I wonder if scepter-to-finger hurts more
 423 17:16:26 * jjmarin searches on internet what a scepter can be :-)
 424 17:16:31 <API> ok, lets move the last topic
 425 17:16:32 <joanie> heheh
 426 17:16:33 * clown fearless leaders have scepters, I guess
 427 17:16:36 <API> I will skip W3C
 428 17:16:43 <joanie> clown: clearly so
 429 17:16:44 <clown> awwww.
 430 17:16:48 <jjmarin> http://www.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.marysrosaries.com/collaboration/images/8/8e/Scepter_001.png&imgrefurl=http://www.marysrosaries.com/collaboration/index.php?title%3DFile:Scepter_001.png&h=2536&w=1771&sz=811&tbnid=uWOZt7YHn68IfM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=64&zoom=1&usg=__Kb_N_26JROq8bnwg0vuOlMnRt9s=&docid=nEXjflbIC2ojmM&sa=X&ei=0WUfUtyTAujU0QWJ-4HIAg&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAA&dur=441
 431 17:16:56 <magpie> i think it's like a conch was for lord of the flies but im not sure jjmarin
 432 17:16:58 <API> #topic Marketing
 433 17:17:06 <API> tihs is more  relevant
 434 17:17:08 <API> today because of:
 435 17:17:32 * clown jjmarin:  LOL
 436 17:17:38 <API> #info recently Allan Day sent a email about Release Notes Time
 437 17:17:40 <API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-August/msg00210.html
 438 17:17:43 <API> for the new people
 439 17:17:51 <API> on each release, GNOME makes an announcement
 440 17:17:51 <jjmarin> ok :-)
 441 17:17:58 <API> explaining what is new with the release
 442 17:18:03 <joanie> and jjmarin comes after us
 443 17:18:05 <API> Release Notes are a summary
 444 17:18:06 <joanie> and we hide
 445 17:18:24 * joanie smiles innocently at jjmarin
 446 17:18:25 <joanie> :)
 447 17:18:26 <API> doing a quick random list of items I can think on:
 448 17:18:34 <API> * magnifier tracking (if it gets into)
 449 17:18:47 <API> * improvement on accessibility support for gnome-shell sliders
 450 17:19:01 <API> * gnome-shell calendar is keyboard navigable (with bugs, but now is navigable)
 451 17:19:07 <joanie> (improvement? API they are working for the first time thanks to you)
 452 17:19:13 <API> * improvement on caret-focus for evince
 453 17:19:25 <joanie> s/improvement/addition/
 454 17:19:26 <API> well, moving from not-working to working sounds like a improvment to me
 455 17:19:31 <joanie> hahahaha
 456 17:19:31 <API> in any case
 457 17:19:33 <jjmarin> great !
 458 17:19:34 <API> that is a quick list
 459 17:19:38 <joanie> you are being humble API
 460 17:19:43 <API> so jjmarin can have that in mind
 461 17:19:50 <clown> anything from Orca?
 462 17:19:55 <API> so next question, as we are implicitly throwing this to jjmarin
 463 17:20:04 <jjmarin> there is also a new Universal Access panel http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2013/08/23/gnome-3-10-sightings/
 464 17:20:06 <API> how do you want us to proceed?
 465 17:20:06 <joanie> clown: I added the support for tagged pdf (structural navigation)
 466 17:20:16 <joanie> but until tagged pdf support is finished
 467 17:20:20 <joanie> not really
 468 17:20:28 <joanie> sadly DayJob required most of my time this cycle
 469 17:20:42 <jjmarin> #info a11y team member can inform to me by irc or email or fill info in https://wiki.gnome.org
 470 17:20:59 <API> jjmarin, could you be more specific with the link?
 471 17:21:11 <joanie> clown: though I do think I fixed various things that needed fixing
 472 17:21:16 <joanie> as time permitted
 473 17:21:23 <jjmarin> sorry
 474 17:21:34 <joanie> so I'll go through what I did have time to do this cycle
 475 17:21:45 <joanie> and if anything is worth stating I'll tell jjmarin
 476 17:21:49 <jjmarin> #info  a11y team members can inform Juanjo by irc or email or fill info in https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/ReleaseNotes#What.27s_new_in_accessibility
 477 17:21:58 * clown wonders why the "zoom" appears to be permantly "off" in the new UA panel.
 478 17:22:12 * clown same with "screenreader"
 479 17:22:18 <joanie> oh!!!
 480 17:22:24 <joanie> API we have a new shortcut
 481 17:22:43 <clown> joanie:  that's based on the screen shot only.
 482 17:22:49 <magpie> switched off?
 483 17:23:05 <clown> jjmarin's link, joanie, magpie:  http://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2013/08/23/gnome-3-10-sightings/
 484 17:23:20 <clown> third screen shot in that blog.
 485 17:23:24 <joanie> jjmarin: Super + Alt + S now is the official keyboard shortcut to toggle orca
 486 17:23:27 <joanie> finally
 487 17:23:30 <joanie> and thanks to API
 488 17:23:39 <API> clown, well, it was a quick sighting
 489 17:23:47 <magpie> yah the sliders look pretty awesome
 490 17:23:48 <API> ah true, the new shortcut
 491 17:23:56 <API> orca-list were really happy with that, as far as I saw
 492 17:24:07 <jjmarin> I think we can mention in the release notes
 493 17:24:27 <joanie> API they were really happy with that
 494 17:24:29 <joanie> as am I
 495 17:24:35 <joanie> it's like we're finally a real AT now :)
 496 17:24:43 <joanie> Luke was happy too
 497 17:24:50 <joanie> Ubuntu apparently will adopt it
 498 17:25:10 <API> so
 499 17:25:17 <API> almost 30 minutes over time
 500 17:25:20 <API> anything else in this topic
 501 17:25:21 <joanie> hold on
 502 17:25:28 * API holding
 503 17:25:40 <joanie> #action Joanie will go through and make the list of features included in the minutes
 504 17:25:44 <joanie> done
 505 17:25:45 <joanie> since we're over
 506 17:25:49 <joanie> no time to info
 507 17:25:52 <jjmarin> If you have ideas for the release notes, contact me !!!! :-)
 508 17:25:52 <clown> yay, joanie
 509 17:25:54 <joanie> but I don't want to forget to do so
 510 17:26:09 <clown> what's the dealine for the release notes?
 511 17:26:10 * magpie worries about mousetweaks
 512 17:26:26 <joanie> API now I think we're set
 513 17:26:30 <joanie> to end the meeting -- if you do
 514 17:26:41 * joanie hides her fingers from descending scepters
 515 17:26:46 <API> magpie, I fear that we are too near the end of this cycle in relation of mousetweaks
 516 17:26:52 <API> in any case
 517 17:26:59 <API> I will skip also misc time
 518 17:27:02 <API> #endmeeting