16:05:38 #startmeeting 16:05:38 Meeting started Thu Aug 29 16:05:38 2013 CET. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:05:38 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:05:46 joanie, without themuso? 16:05:52 dunno 16:05:55 up to you 16:06:47 wow, what a crowd. 16:06:56 heh 16:07:02 actually, new topic 16:07:10 MouseTrappers! 16:07:16 hmm ok 16:07:19 :-) 16:07:19 API could you topic that? 16:07:24 #topic Mousetrap updates 16:07:25 HI, we're mostly going to listen. 16:07:31 heidie: too late 16:07:32 :P 16:07:35 heidie, I think that is your topic ;) 16:07:37 :-) Tha's fine. 16:07:42 OK, we can do this! 16:07:43 but please, be short as today agenda is full 16:07:53 Heidie is not especially tall 16:07:53 Yes, we'll be brief. 16:07:56 :P 16:08:01 :-) 16:08:05 snarky minion is snarky 16:08:08 * joanie quiets down 16:08:13 * clown feels like miscellaneous time already. 16:08:15 This is the second class meeting for our Software Engineering class. 16:08:26 We've got six students who are going to push on MouseTrap for the semester. 16:08:35 woo hoo! 16:08:36 And we're just getting up to speed on IRC channels and stuff. 16:08:40 :-) Yippee!!! 16:08:46 And that is the status report from us. 16:08:49 I am *so* psyched 16:08:57 Me too! And LoganH is in the class. 16:08:59 excuse my ignroance: what is "MouseTrap" in 25 words or less? 16:09:23 A11y app that uses camera to follow user head movement to move the cursor 16:09:30 https://wiki.gnome.org/MouseTrap 16:09:32 gotcha 16:09:50 Joannie gets the succinct award :-) 16:09:54 heidie's students are bringing it back to life 16:10:02 where are you at with it now heidie? 16:10:03 ultimately gnome3-ifying it 16:10:04 Along with at least one Drexel student. 16:10:06 head tracking or eye tracking or both? 16:10:14 See joanies comment 16:10:26 Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3) 16:10:51 Head, finger, and use eyes to click. 16:11:04 It isn't working yet, and we're focusing on the forehead. 16:11:04 Yes, I didn't mean to discount Amber (Drexel student). Amber is amazing 16:11:11 that's pretty impressive. 16:11:13 * heidie nods 16:11:15 and someone I'd love to see join the A11y team 16:11:34 Yes! Me too :-) 16:11:40 I see no infos 16:11:46 fearless leader will be displeased ;) 16:11:53 heidie: would you like to info them, or shall I? 16:12:03 Sigh.. Forgot sorry. 16:12:05 I'll do it. 16:12:05 :) 16:12:07 thanks! 16:12:08 well, in fact joanie you are the one that usually do the meeting minutes 16:12:14 heidie, anyway don't worry 16:12:18 Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3)#info 16:12:23 #info Working to get it up to gnome 3 (including python 3) 16:12:32 * API waiting 16:12:36 #info Head, finger, and use eyes to click. 16:12:48 #info It isn't working yet, and we're focusing on the forehead. 16:12:54 want more? 16:13:10 heidie, could you #info the first thing you said on the meeting 16:13:13 about new peple? 16:13:16 * joanie agrees 16:13:16 *people 16:13:32 #info This is the second class meeting for our Software Engineering class. 16:13:42 #info We've got six students who are going to push on MouseTrap for the semester. 16:14:11 #info And we're just getting up to speed on IRC channels and stuff. 16:14:24 #info Hopefully soon we'll have an upstream branch where the current work will be placed. 16:14:26 :) 16:14:36 heidie, ok thanks 16:14:38 When it's ready to be placed there 16:14:40 Thank you! 16:14:45 I hope so too :-) 16:14:45 having said so, and going back to the "full agenda" 16:14:49 :) 16:14:51 if you don't mind I will move to next topic 16:15:19 Sure! 16:15:22 ok 16:15:32 so moving to the agenda, will move to short topics 16:15:37 while we wait for themuso 16:15:47 #topic Bug 707010: atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible 16:15:47 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707010 normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible 16:16:06 #info API detected a bug that prevents using atspi listener on javascript code 16:16:25 #info specifically, in a program using gjs context (so c+javascript) 16:16:53 like the tracker 16:16:53 #info the problems seems to be that the methods are loaded 16:17:06 #info all of them, doesn't matter if they are used or not 16:17:32 #info jasper recognizes that it seems a gjs bug, but not plan to fix that son 16:17:35 java does something like that 16:17:54 #info my proposal is skip that method at the gobject-introspection phase 16:18:15 #info taking into account that that methods doesn't conform gobject-introspection format, I think that makes sense 16:18:19 I meant to have a look at this yesterday, but didn't find the time. 16:18:33 #info to do that we need to ensure that is not used, looking at pyatspi2 I didn't found anything 16:18:36 done 16:18:38 The error message is familiar, but I can't remember where I saw it before. 16:18:45 well 16:18:48 Or, if indeed I saw it before. 16:18:50 taking into account jasper words 16:18:52 and as I said 16:19:04 the fact that this kind of errors are sometimes warnings that become errors 16:19:12 probably at some moment of the past, it was just a warning 16:19:16 or was not happening 16:19:21 the tracker has always had the error but it didn't seem to affect it 16:19:29 I think I added it as a C convenience function 16:19:43 but then the C API that I created is a complete piece of crap and probably isn't very usable 16:19:45 right. We had a fully functioning tracker as of mid July (I think). 16:20:04 jasper words == "the import system is absolutely dreadful" 16:20:08 Anyway, yeah, skipping seems to make sense. Not sure if I should email the release team, or if API should do that 16:20:11 we did but it was getting that error 16:20:18 mgorse, yes I will do that 16:20:25 it maybe is only been affected by some other change i'm not sure 16:20:28 I wanted to raise this here 16:20:34 to ask you personally 16:20:36 * clown notes that I was saying "right" to magpie_'s comment not mgorse's "piece of crap" comment. 16:20:37 you==mgorse 16:20:44 if you think that that method is not used, so safe to skip 16:20:46 * joanie smiles at clown 16:20:52 API what does this mean in practical terms? 16:21:01 magpie_, in practical terms 16:21:06 I added (skip) to a few of those a while ago, but I guess I missed some 16:21:07 what will i need to change? 16:21:07 means that the method will be still on C API 16:21:19 but as it is skipped on gobject introspection phase 16:21:29 it will not be available for gobject introspected bindings 16:21:35 like python or javascript 16:21:46 not being available to javascript is what we want, after all 16:21:57 magpie_, you don't need to change anything 16:22:05 if we agreed to go with that 16:22:06 which means: we have to find a new way to create an atspi event listener in the tracker? 16:22:14 we will push that commit on at-spi2-core 16:22:29 and you just need to be sure to use last at-spi2-core while working 16:22:34 clown, no 16:22:44 okay, explain, please. 16:22:48 ok sorry 16:22:51 the failing method is 16:22:54 * mgorse goes to comment on the bug 16:23:05 atspi_event_listener_register_no_data 16:23:14 this is not used at all at the code of the magnifier 16:23:14 * clown sounds familiar 16:23:28 but it seems that, as jasper said: 16:23:39 "when we import the module we scan through the typelib and 16:23:39 define all functions/method" 16:23:40 but the constructor for the event listener calls it, ultimately? 16:23:47 so when using a correct atspi event method 16:23:53 the wrong one is also loaded 16:23:57 and everything fails 16:24:02 gotcha 16:24:05 but the constructor for the event listener calls it, ultimately? 16:24:07 no 16:24:21 this is the same reason I think that the best solution is skipping the failing method 16:24:44 but I wanted to reaise this here 16:24:50 just in case was used in another place 16:24:55 looking at pyatspi2 it was not used 16:25:04 and obviously at gnome-shell was not 16:25:06 * joanie didn't even know it existed 16:25:07 let me try this then: the funcition is pulled in via the import statement and that causes the barf? 16:25:09 but paranoid me wanted to check 16:25:25 clown, not exactly at that moment 16:25:28 it might explain the problems running the tracker recently 16:25:33 when the first atspi method is called 16:25:38 but yes 16:25:41 i'm still not sure why it was ok in the past though 16:25:44 ah. 16:25:45 magpie_, we will talk about that later 16:25:49 any atspi method? 16:26:01 clown, any atspi method from atspievent 16:26:18 that's beginning to make sense now. Thanks API. 16:26:23 no problem 16:26:24 what abotut atspidevicelistener? 16:26:36 magpie_, didn't test 16:26:45 but it doesnt matter, as atspievent are also needed 16:26:49 i'm still not sure why it was ok in the past though 16:26:53 I already guessed that 16:26:55 in the past 16:26:57 several times 16:27:05 stuff that were merely warnings became errors 16:27:43 taking into account last comment on the bug 16:27:46 and this conversation 16:27:58 #info general consensus (included maintainer) is skip that method 16:28:08 #action API will request an API freeze request 16:28:23 * API notices that last sentence sounds weird 16:28:26 * API shrugs 16:28:32 freeze break 16:28:37 but I'll clean it up in the minutes 16:28:38 * clown loves that last sentence. 16:28:41 so more questions, doubts, comments? 16:28:43 make an api freeze request? 16:28:52 freeze break, actually. 16:29:00 magpie_, yes sorry 16:29:06 is an api freeze break request 16:29:11 we are right now on api freeze 16:29:26 that means that modules that want to be included on 3.10 shouldn't change their public APIs 16:29:30 and if they need to 16:29:41 they need to ask for a freeze break request to the release team 16:29:45 justifying why 16:29:57 https://live.gnome.org/Schedule 16:29:58 https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointNine 16:30:08 so 16:30:20 questions, doubts, comments, moving next topic? 16:30:37 nothing from me thanks API 16:30:47 yes, thanks for the explanation API 16:31:29 ok 16:31:39 taking into account that is more that 30 minutes in the meeting 16:31:50 I will officially postpone the topics that are related with TheMuso 16:31:52 joanie, ? 16:31:57 sounds good API 16:31:58 sorry 16:32:03 he told me he'd be here 16:32:08 no problem 16:32:12 #topic Orca preferences/configuration GUI abstraction/separation. 16:32:17 #info postponed 16:32:22 I guess he didn't get right the timezone 16:32:25 #topic At-spi and desktop environment compositors using Wayland/Mir. 16:32:29 #topic postponed 16:32:34 jjmarin: yeah, I don't even know where he is 16:32:40 #topic Extending at-spi to support touch gestures. 16:32:43 I think he's traveling 16:32:46 #info postponed 16:32:55 #topic At-spi and desktop environment compositors using Wayland/Mir. 16:32:57 #info postponed 16:33:00 (sorry for the noise) 16:33:10 Should some of this be discussed on g-a-devel? 16:33:10 no, it needed minuting 16:33:12 thanks for doing it 16:33:30 or it could be if Luke isn't here, at least 16:33:34 mgorse, yeah probably that would be a good idea 16:33:37 mgorse: at some point Luke will probably say "oh crap!" and then we can suggest that 16:33:39 we can suggest that to Luke 16:33:40 :) 16:33:48 that is other option 16:33:54 anyway, moving 16:34:03 #topic GSoC updates 16:34:08 who wants to start? 16:34:23 clown? 16:34:27 sure. 16:35:00 #info end of last week, Joseph worked with Magdalen in IRC preparing the latest patch for the tracker + magnifier 16:35:33 #info mostly were working on the tracker code at that time. More specifically Joseph was asking about that. 16:35:49 #info Magdalen posted a patch to the bugzilla on Mon. 16:35:58 #info Jasper reivewed and Joseph reviewed. 16:36:10 s/reivewed/reviewed/ 16:36:37 done for now. I think I'm beginning to tread on magpie_'s updates, so I'll turn it over to her. 16:37:14 #info Magdalen has had a lot of problems testing the files and hopes that the problem API found will make testing easier from here 16:38:25 #info Magdalen intends to get the next patch out as soon as possible and for it to be fully working 16:38:57 * API wonders is magpie_ finished or not 16:39:10 #info Magdalen is not sure where the current work sits in the timeline 16:39:56 https://google-melange.appspot.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/magpie/1 16:40:20 26 August - 6 September: UI Creation for GNOME 3.12 16:40:24 1. Add gsettings for the different modes of displaying the region of interest within the magnified view (centered, proportional, or push) 16:40:28 2. Propose UI for inclusion in gnome-control-center 16:40:32 3. Seek and respond to feedback from the Design Team 16:40:34 in terms of 2. and 3 16:40:56 number 1 is done. 16:41:21 and 2 and 3 seem like they are irrelevant until the focus and caret tracking is in place 16:41:26 well, current work in not related at all with that 16:41:36 joanie said the same but with better words 16:42:13 how soon will mgorse be able to fix the eventlistener stuff? 16:42:26 will he need any help?? 16:42:38 magpie_: API provided a patch 16:42:39 help? 16:42:39 magpie_, the patch is already there 16:42:41 you could use that patch 16:42:43 he approved that 16:43:02 so as I said, it will on master as soon as we get the freeze break request 16:43:02 great thanks mgorse 16:43:05 lifesaver 16:43:07 but, you can go on with your work 16:43:11 magpie_: The patch is on bug 707010. You can apply it locally for the time being if it'll help you 16:43:11 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=707010 normal, Normal, ---, at-spi-maint, UNCONFIRMED, atspi_event_listener_register_no_data makes using eventlistener on javascript not possible 16:43:18 using temporaly that patch 16:43:29 magpie_: in other words, you are not blocked by that 16:43:46 And thank API, really 16:44:05 cool it should be ok from here then 16:44:26 yeah thanks API for spotting that 16:44:38 btw, I miss something from the infos 16:44:47 I have been reading logs from yesterday 16:44:47 * clown and the crowd leaves... 16:44:57 one of the leasson learnt yesterday 16:45:08 is that if the patch uploaded is known to not be working 16:45:19 the usual thing is adding a disclaimer 16:46:12 so just in case 16:46:17 ok 16:46:19 do we agreed that for any future patch 16:46:29 if that is the case the disclaimer will be added? 16:46:41 +1 16:46:42 certainly not a problem hopefully it won't be needed now though 16:47:07 +1 to always adding the state of the patch 16:47:16 magpie_, your plan is uploading a working patch then? 16:47:19 and explicitly asking for a review when a review is expected 16:47:55 yeah I can do that 16:48:19 can do what? 16:49:04 i was not clear on the protocol before hence why i had been asking but I will make sure it's clear what the patches are about in future, now that I know 16:50:03 well, just speaking for myself, my experience has been: if the patch isn't working, we don't want to hear about it. But, maybe that's just me. 16:50:15 I mean for patches I have uploaded. 16:50:40 so, I it is good to get clarification on the protocol 16:50:46 well that is true from the maintainers pov 16:50:52 in some cases 16:50:56 wip patches are uploaded 16:51:05 if more of one person is working on the bug 16:51:15 but in that case 16:51:17 clown: During yesterday's chat in #a11y, magpie_ indicated that she wants to upload patches whenever she saw fit. That's fine. But then it needs to be clear what their state is. 16:51:23 it is always labelled as that 16:51:31 that==wip 16:52:14 i'd have held off on that patch to be honest joanie 16:52:22 right, joanie. That's why I suggested taking patching offline of the bug itself: again, my experience has been to not upload a patch until it is working. 16:52:31 *on the bug itself. 16:52:34 * joanie nods at clown 16:53:00 however, if going forward the protocol is: "this is a wip patch", then I'm fine with that. 16:53:07 I just want to know what the correct policy is. 16:53:14 there is no correct policy 16:53:24 it's not whenever I see fit i just don't want to have to wait when i do know a patch is working 16:53:25 but clearly we have had a rather epic failure to communicate 16:54:14 magpie_, but the problem is that that patch was not working 16:54:18 agreed but we are communicating now so its not that epic 16:54:23 we are are saying that if a patch is working 16:54:27 it is worth to upload it 16:54:31 but that was not the case 16:54:52 API i was saying I had not tested it and i felt it was unlikely in that case it would work 16:55:42 well, I don't want to discuss what we said and what we didn't say that day, as we already have a conclusion 16:55:45 so lets move one 16:55:56 anything else in this topic? 16:55:56 anything to info here? 16:56:13 ok, I will summarize it 16:56:19 as I asked to bring that topic 16:56:39 #info bugzilla is a tool to report bugs, and provide patches that solves the bug 16:57:28 #info usually, those patches are finished (so working) and tested patches 16:57:54 #info if that is not the case, but the developer things that it is worth to upload it, the usual is adding a disclaimer 16:58:07 done 16:58:10 anything else 16:58:10 ? 16:58:25 on the tracker? 16:58:29 yes. 16:58:49 clown, well, on the GSoC updates 16:59:06 magpie_ can you summarize how you are going to test that the tracker is working? 16:59:36 in the magnifier? 16:59:58 I hope this is a fair question. 17:00:11 #action Magdalen is going to apply Mike Gorse's patch and start testing the work and then make the last changes that need to be done to get the patch ready 17:01:08 #info there are a couple of warnings in the magnifier that also need to be looked at 17:02:18 #help Magdalen is not sure whether to fix them separately from the magnifier work 17:02:34 * clown didn't know there was 'help' command. 17:02:45 * API neither 17:02:59 * clown neat 17:03:13 Magdalen has been reading the meetbot manual 17:03:21 clown do you want to say something in relation with the last comment by magpie_ ? 17:03:29 tota11y said: Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 17:03:29 jjmarin: Error: "said:" is not a valid command. 17:03:45 * magpie_ wasn't sure if that was worthy of an info 17:03:45 * joanie pats the bot on the head 17:04:03 I still watn to deal with the testing procedure. 17:04:09 *want 17:04:21 How do we know that the tracker is working in the magnifier? 17:04:31 good question 17:04:47 I have ideas, and I could outline them. 17:05:10 but I don't want to step on magpie_'s toes if she has already thought about this, and has ideas of her own. 17:05:11 ok clown sure that might be useful to hear about 17:05:18 Okay. 17:05:26 clown, magpie_ not sure if that is material for the meeting 17:05:31 as we are over time 17:05:43 could you resume that chatting later on #a11y IRC? 17:05:52 just one more topic and we all would be free 17:06:01 Okay, well, it speaks to whether the patch is deemed "working", but sure. 17:06:06 out of the meeting then. 17:06:17 I think it's ok for it to be in the meeting 17:06:43 joanie, ok 17:06:46 just guessing 17:06:49 so sorry for the noise 17:06:55 magpie_, clown the floor is yours 17:07:00 okay, I'll try to be brief. 17:07:24 1. Get a app that supports focus navigation via the TAB key. 17:07:31 2. Start the magnifier. 17:07:45 3. Use th TAB key presses to move focus around that app. 17:08:03 4. Does the focused object scroll into view? If not, it isn't working. 17:08:33 5. Drop into a terminal and change the tracking gsettings — switch between centered, push, proprotional 17:08:51 6. Does the mode of focus tracking appropriately change? 17:09:13 7. Find an app that exposes caret motion through the a11y API. 17:09:34 8. Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5. with the text caret insertion point. 17:09:41 That's it roughly. 17:09:45 Questions? 17:10:09 * clown foo! I should have info'ed all of that. 17:10:41 sorry I got disconnected 17:10:46 what did I miss? 17:10:48 :-) 17:10:53 All of it... 17:10:55 we have two magpies now 17:11:04 two for joy that's good luck 17:11:15 well I should have info'ed it anyway, so I'll repeat as quickly as I can. 17:11:25 #info 1. Get a app that supports focus navigation via the TAB key. 17:11:33 #info 2. Start the magnifier. 17:11:42 #info 3. Use th TAB key presses to move focus around that app. 17:11:49 #info 4. Does the focused object scroll into view? If not, it isn't working. 17:12:06 #info 5. Drop into a terminal and change the tracking gsettings — switch between centered, push, proprotional 17:12:15 #info 6. Does the mode of focus tracking appropriately change? 17:12:22 #info 7. Find an app that exposes caret motion through the a11y API. 17:12:31 #info 8. Repeat steps 3, 4, and 5. with the text caret insertion point. 17:12:40 * clown not sure if magpie is still here. 17:12:48 sounds systematic. I like it. 17:13:05 great! 17:13:48 thank you clown 17:13:56 wlcm. 17:13:57 seems rather plan like :) 17:13:57 yeah thanks clown 17:14:29 joanie, I used to test the magnifier on a dialy basis. Mouse tracking, colour effects, etc., and so on. 17:14:36 *daily 17:14:43 :) 17:14:50 I have no doubts 17:14:55 that was a lot of work 17:15:32 it is. It also has a qualitative feel, rather than a quantitative measurement. Does it "look right"? 17:15:33 * API notes that the scepter of the meeting is at magpie and clown hands 17:15:40 * API wonering if they finished or not 17:15:46 * clown gives up scepter 17:16:13 * joanie notes that API never uses a gavel like joanie does 17:16:23 i'm a qualitative physicist so that should hopefully suit me too. 17:16:24 I wonder if scepter-to-finger hurts more 17:16:26 * jjmarin searches on internet what a scepter can be :-) 17:16:31 ok, lets move the last topic 17:16:32 heheh 17:16:33 * clown fearless leaders have scepters, I guess 17:16:36 I will skip W3C 17:16:43