1 16:07:51 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:07:51 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul 11 16:07:51 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:07:51 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:07:59 <API> #topic GSoC updates
   5 16:08:18 <API> hmm, is not changing the topic
   6 16:08:26 <API> joanie, I guess that tota11y is dead
   7 16:08:30 <joanie> 16:06:10 <joanie> bot lost ops
   8 16:08:36 <joanie> 16:06:19  >>> joanie gets ops back
   9 16:08:56 <clown> should I wait until ops is back?
  10 16:09:01 <magpie_> what's ops?
  11 16:09:13 <clown> great power to API
  12 16:09:21 <API> magpie_, grants to do stuff
  13 16:09:29 <clown> becomes king of the chat room.
  14 16:09:33 <API> without ops tota11y can't change the chat room
  15 16:09:36 <API> in any case
  16 16:09:38 <magpie_> channel operator?
  17 16:09:45 <API> clown, magpie_ I think that you can go on
  18 16:09:57 <clown> ok, I will proceed.
  19 16:10:10 <clown> #info Magdalen put together a patch for the FocusCaretTracker, and uploaded it to the bugzilla. (Congratulations).
  20 16:10:24 <clown> #info Jasper reviewed it, and made some interesting points.
  21 16:10:29 <joanie> :)
  22 16:10:43 <clown> #info Joseph responded to his review, and has been ruminating over it since.
  23 16:11:02 <clown> #info Joseph believes the way to address them is to answer a few technical questions:
  24 16:11:13 <clown> #info 1. should the tracker be a singleton?
  25 16:11:18 <magpie_> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647074
  26 16:11:18 <tota11y> 04Bug 647074: enhancement, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, GNOME Shell Magnifier should track focus and the caret
  27 16:11:34 <clown> #info 2.  where should Atspi.init() be done?  (probably in main.c).
  28 16:11:52 <clown> just a second, I have to look up my notes.
  29 16:12:22 <clown> #info 3.  should event registration with Atpsi happen in the constructor?
  30 16:12:58 <API> clown, in the constructor of what?
  31 16:13:04 <clown> #info 4. (possibly a 4th question)  should clients have the opporunity to respond to focus event separate from slection events?
  32 16:13:04 <API> of the tracker?
  33 16:13:09 <clown> API, yes.
  34 16:13:15 <API> any other  ojbect of gnome-shell?
  35 16:13:15 <API> ok
  36 16:13:24 <magpie_> #info Magdalen sent a copy of APIs advice chat log to the mentors
  37 16:13:30 <magpie_> this morning
  38 16:13:56 <API> magpie_, could you elaborate that?
  39 16:14:02 <API> a brief summary of that chat log?
  40 16:14:07 <clown> #info while these issues are discussed with the "experts", Joseph feels that Magdalen should proceed with changing the magnifier to use the tracker as is.
  41 16:14:08 <magpie_> #info at the moment it's in the constructor since update
  42 16:14:13 <magpie_> #link https://github.com/thisMagpie/GSoC/blob/master/javascript/focusCaretTracker.js
  43 16:14:31 <magpie_> API you remember when you came to advice us?
  44 16:14:31 <clown> #info Joseph feels that Magdalen should leave the tracker alone for the time being.
  45 16:14:39 <magpie_> 6th june
  46 16:14:52 <API> yes, I remember a conversation between you, Jasper and me
  47 16:15:00 * clown wonders why he's bothering with the infos, when another conversation just starts up one its own,..
  48 16:15:07 <API> clown, sorry
  49 16:15:12 <API> as magpie_ started with her infos
  50 16:15:17 <API> I thought that you had finished
  51 16:15:26 <API> in any case you are right
  52 16:15:35 <clown> I'll say done — quetions, when I'm done, okay?
  53 16:15:37 <magpie_> API don't blame me!
  54 16:15:38 <API> please a little order first
  55 16:15:52 <API> magpie_, sorry, but clown was right
  56 16:15:55 <API> he was talking
  57 16:16:00 <API> and he didn't finished yet
  58 16:16:06 <magpie_> sorry clown and API
  59 16:16:12 <clown> s'okay.
  60 16:16:21 * clown collects his thoughts.
  61 16:16:23 <API> clown, as I said sorry as well
  62 16:16:48 * API stopping talk until clown says the 'done' word
  63 16:17:16 <clown> #info Magdalen sent (as she info'ed) an email showing an IRC log of the converstaion with API about where Atspi should be initialized (question 1. above).
  64 16:17:24 <clown> #info Joseph responded to that this morning.
  65 16:17:51 <magpie_> oh
  66 16:17:54 <clown> #info Joseph is throwing the question to the Atpsi experts:  where is the best place to do this?
  67 16:18:24 <clown> #info Regarding GSoC "adminstration":  Joseph is going on a two week vacation at the beginning of August:
  68 16:18:47 <clown> #info if there is any GSoC stuff he must do, that should be discussed soon.
  69 16:19:07 <clown> #info Also, there should be a plan for some of the other mentors to take over in his absence.
  70 16:19:18 <clown> whew!  done.  Questions?
  71 16:19:44 <magpie_> I've aa couple more
  72 16:19:52 <magpie_> infos
  73 16:19:56 <API> clown, well, in fact you were the one that made a question
  74 16:20:00 <API> oh. sorry
  75 16:20:10 <API> magpie_, please go on, we can debate when you both finish
  76 16:20:22 <magpie_> questions/or infos API?
  77 16:20:28 <magpie_> ok
  78 16:21:23 <magpie_> #info Magdalen wrote another blog post but it was not very detailed so thinks she should talk more about the gjs work in shell soon
  79 16:21:57 <magpie_> #info Magdalen has got further on the magnifier
  80 16:22:35 <magpie_> #info Magdalen also uploaded the work to github with the focuscarettracker
  81 16:24:07 <magpie_> #info Magdalen is not sure how to change from global.get_pointer() without changing a lot of the mouse codes in magnifier
  82 16:24:10 <magpie_> ok done
  83 16:24:16 <clown> s/question 1. above/question 2. above/
  84 16:24:22 <API> clown, well as I said
  85 16:24:31 <API> in fact you were the one doing a question here
  86 16:24:35 <API> <clown> #info Joseph is throwing the question to the Atpsi experts:  where is the best place to do this?
  87 16:24:43 <clown> four questions, API (at least).
  88 16:24:57 <magpie_> sorry that took long to get out
  89 16:25:00 <API> yes, but probably the others can't be replied here
  90 16:25:15 <API> at least
  91 16:25:18 <clown> oh, you have reply to that one, API?
  92 16:25:20 <clown> cool.
  93 16:25:24 <API> questions like: "if should be a singleton"
  94 16:25:32 <API> seems more like a question to gnome-shell developers
  95 16:25:40 <API> but probably I'm wrong
  96 16:25:53 <API> that specific question was specifically oriented to people in this room
  97 16:26:03 <clown> there is an Atspi aspect to the singleton question.
  98 16:26:04 <joanie> the atspi question *might* be something for mgorse to chime in on?
  99 16:26:18 <API> clown, or I am wrong and all those questions were targeted for everybody here?
 100 16:26:40 <clown> the Atspi aspect is:  with a singleton there is only one registration for the focus/caret events.
 101 16:26:44 <magpie_> Jasper said he prefer not to be in a constructor already you see
 102 16:27:23 <clown> API, these questions were targeted to everyone here.  And, mgorse's opinion is a really good place to go.
 103 16:28:15 <mgorse> Which events is the code listening for? Just focus events?
 104 16:28:31 <magpie_> focus caret and selected mgorse
 105 16:28:48 <clown> mgorse:  focus, select, and caret  (right Magpie)
 106 16:29:16 * clown looks to see exactly which events.
 107 16:29:48 <magpie_> https://github.com/thisMagpie/GSoC/blob/master/javascript/focusCaretTracker.js
 108 16:30:19 <clown> mgorse:  object:state-changed:focused, object:state-changed:selected, and object:text-caret-moved
 109 16:30:51 <mgorse> I think I'll need to test that AT-SPI works correctly with multiple listeners listening for the same event. Sorry--I should have done this before now.
 110 16:31:19 <clown> mgorse, no problem.  And this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.  Thanks!
 111 16:31:46 <clown> mgorse, could you make a note of that on the bugzilla?
 112 16:31:51 <joanie> mgorse: when I did the proof-of-concept magnification python listener, it and orca were each listening for those events
 113 16:31:54 * clown looks up bugzilla.
 114 16:31:56 <joanie> and it worked
 115 16:32:00 <mgorse> I don't think it has any specific code to, say, not send a D-Bus match rule if one has already been sent for the event. I'm not sure off-hand if dbus-daemon will send the event twice if it has two match rules for the event
 116 16:32:03 <joanie> mind you, that was what.... a couple of years ago?
 117 16:32:16 <clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647074#c18
 118 16:32:17 <tota11y> 04Bug 647074: enhancement, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, GNOME Shell Magnifier should track focus and the caret
 119 16:32:57 <clown> joanie:   the POC was a singleton, wasn't it?
 120 16:33:04 <joanie> POC?
 121 16:33:12 <magpie_> proof of concept
 122 16:33:12 <clown> proof-of-concept
 123 16:33:15 <mgorse> joanie: Your listener was separate from Orca, right? Ie, in a different process? I should check that it doesn't, say, send the event multiple times to each listener if there are multiple listeners in the same process
 124 16:33:20 <joanie> mgorse: yes
 125 16:33:27 <joanie> it was totally separate/independent
 126 16:33:29 <magpie_> it never worked for me
 127 16:33:52 <clown> mgorse, good point, because the tracker clients will all be in the same gnome-shell process.
 128 16:34:55 <clown> mgorse, can you make a note of that on the bugzilla — the tests you are going to carry out?  and/or the results?
 129 16:35:33 <mgorse> yeah, I need to comment on the bug anyhow
 130 16:35:44 <clown> mgorse, much appreciated.
 131 16:35:50 <mgorse> #action mgorse will test AT-SPI's behavior when registering multiple event listeners in the same process and comment on the bug
 132 16:35:55 <magpie_> thanks mgorse
 133 16:36:24 <clown> so:  the tracker code changes should wait until some of these issues are resolved.
 134 16:36:26 <clown> IMHO
 135 16:36:45 <clown> s/some of these/all of these/
 136 16:36:55 <magpie_> well i'm far as i can get with both files
 137 16:37:18 <magpie_> i have to find out about global.get_pointer from clutter
 138 16:37:37 <clown> why?  well, we should take that out of the meeting.
 139 16:38:17 <magpie_> sure i was updating on my progress with the code that's all
 140 16:39:07 <clown> API, do you have questions about any other of my other questions?
 141 16:39:10 <API> clown, btw, as mgorse
 142 16:39:17 <API> also mentioned the "comment thing"
 143 16:39:24 <API> I will comment there about the need of init atspi
 144 16:39:30 <clown> thanks API.
 145 16:39:34 <API> sorry, I forgot to do that before
 146 16:39:47 <magpie_> thanks API
 147 16:39:55 <API> in any case
 148 16:40:03 <API> as some of the questions are still in the air
 149 16:40:14 <API> what about send them to the accessibility dev mailing list?
 150 16:40:35 <clown> Sure — send them all?
 151 16:41:35 <clown> #action Joseph will summarize the 4 main questions about the FocusCaretTracker, and send that to the accessibility dev list.
 152 16:41:52 <API> just saying because as you said before
 153 16:41:58 <API> there are stuff to investigate
 154 16:42:04 <clown> makes sense.
 155 16:42:16 <API> and probably we will not have time to solve that on ~#11y-meeting, or on #a11y today
 156 16:42:28 <API> so with that action, I think that we can move on
 157 16:42:29 <clown> I know I don't have the time :-(
 158 16:42:53 <API> clown, fwiw, thanks for coming to the a11y-meeting and do the summaries of situation
 159 16:43:04 <magpie_> #action Magdalen will email the list
 160 16:43:11 <clown> my pleasure:  magnifier users need focus tracking....
 161 16:43:19 <clown> I feel for them.
 162 16:44:32 <API> hmm
 163 16:45:02 <API> magpie_ a mail about what?
 164 16:45:23 <magpie_> API clown said he doesn't have time so i don't mind doing it
 165 16:45:37 <clown> magpie_ I have time to do the email.
 166 16:46:01 <clown> I was saying that I don't have a lot of time to solve these problems in #a11y today.
 167 16:46:08 <clown> I was agreeing with API.
 168 16:46:11 <magpie_> oh i just read that <clown> I know I don't have the time :-(
 169 16:46:25 <API> ok, so after this clarification
 170 16:46:31 <API> magpie_ thanks for your offer
 171 16:46:41 <magpie_> sorry i thought u meant that not generally
 172 16:46:42 <API> clown thanks for the (future) mail
 173 16:46:48 <API> having said so
 174 16:46:55 <clown> s'okay magpie_
 175 16:46:57 <API> lets move, although I think that the rest of topic are lighter
 176 16:47:37 <API> #topic W3C updates
 177 16:47:48 <API> this is a just in case topic
 178 16:47:49 <clown> well, hello there.  me again...
 179 16:47:55 <API> yes
 180 16:47:58 <API> clown, please go on
 181 16:48:30 <clown> #info The ARIA working group desires to put together a "Last Call Draft" of the User Agent Implementation Guide, by the end of the month (July).
 182 16:48:56 <clown> #info As editor, I will be making the final edits in preparation for that publication.
 183 16:49:09 <clown> #info Hopefull, there will be a Last Call Draft by August.
 184 16:49:20 <clown> s/Hopefull/Hopefully/
 185 16:49:24 <joanie> that would be nice
 186 16:49:37 <joanie> I'm hoping to have some breathing room after guadec
 187 16:49:46 <clown> #info Then, the public is invited to make comments on that draft, and request changes, clarifications, etc.
 188 16:49:59 <joanie> and would love to take that draft and look at it specifically in the context of webkitgtk
 189 16:50:03 <clown> done.  questions?
 190 16:50:21 <clown> that's an atspi platform, right?
 191 16:50:28 <joanie> ATK
 192 16:50:32 <joanie> but yeah
 193 16:50:35 <joanie> gnomey
 194 16:50:35 <API> joanie, but clown is right
 195 16:50:38 <clown> yeah, it's confusing...
 196 16:50:41 <API> for the webkit2 gtk part
 197 16:50:44 <API> at-spi2 is needed
 198 16:50:50 <joanie> really?
 199 16:50:50 <clown> the UAIG says ATK/AT-SPI.
 200 16:51:00 <API> joanie, due the plug/socket related tests
 201 16:51:07 <API> in fact on the internal jhbuild of webkitgtk
 202 16:51:11 <API> they had atspi before atk
 203 16:51:12 <clown> ATK since the user agent implements things using ATK, but the ATs look at what's coming out of AT-SPI.
 204 16:51:17 <joanie> but the user agent implementation
 205 16:51:19 <joanie> is done in ATK
 206 16:51:29 <API> yes, but if you want to test it
 207 16:51:35 <API> as they are in different processes
 208 16:51:43 <API> and that works thanks to the atksocket/plug
 209 16:51:45 <joanie> so we will not in WebCore Accessibility support for Gtk have any AT-SPI code
 210 16:51:48 <joanie> right?
 211 16:51:49 <API> parts that are implemented at atspi
 212 16:51:56 <API> joanie, right
 213 16:51:58 <joanie> k
 214 16:51:59 <joanie> phew
 215 16:52:03 <API> there are no atspi code there
 216 16:52:15 <API> but in order to work, so in order to test some of the tests
 217 16:52:18 <API> atspi is needed
 218 16:52:19 <joanie> of course
 219 16:53:01 <joanie> my interest is to be sure that the draft guidelines are fully doable and consistent with what we'd expect
 220 16:53:05 <joanie> and we've just not had that time
 221 16:53:18 <joanie> but if the draft is out in august and we are less-crazy-busy in august
 222 16:53:21 <joanie> that would be perfect
 223 16:53:40 <clown> the draft guidelines are being tested now (when I get a chance).  But, tested with FF.
 224 16:54:00 <joanie> they'll just cram it all into AtkObject attributes :P
 225 16:54:07 <joanie> I'd like to do it right ;)
 226 16:54:12 <API> clown, just out of curiosity
 227 16:54:16 <API> tested with FF on windows?
 228 16:54:35 <clown> API, I'm testing on FF/Fedora 19.
 229 16:54:57 <clown> API, Rich is testing FF/Windows.  Others are testing IE, Safari, and Chrome.
 230 16:55:06 <API> clown, on thanks
 231 16:55:20 <clown> you're welcome API.
 232 16:55:55 <clown> just a reminder:  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testreport?testsuite_id=1
 233 16:56:06 <clown> that shows the platforms being tested along the top.
 234 16:57:32 * clown not sure how accessilbe that table is, sorry.
 235 16:57:52 <API> clown, ok, again thanks
 236 16:58:03 <clown> you're welcome.
 237 16:58:05 <API> so, more questions, doubts, comments?
 238 16:59:52 <API> it seems that no
 239 16:59:56 <magpie_> none from me
 240 17:00:01 <API> I will skip marketing as jjmarin is not here
 241 17:00:07 <API> so just in case
 242 17:00:11 <API> #miscellaneous time
 243 17:00:16 <API> argh
 244 17:00:20 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 245 17:00:32 <API> something not scheduled (and really short) to add ?
 246 17:01:18 <magpie_> i've offered to volunteer for guadec
 247 17:01:25 <magpie_> and put my name down
 248 17:02:00 <API> magpie_, well, have fun ;)
 249 17:02:12 <clown> API, that was faintly ominous.
 250 17:02:43 <API> clown, you are a evil thinker
 251 17:02:52 <API> I was totally sincere ;)
 252 17:02:54 <API> having said so
 253 17:03:06 <API> I think that this is a good point to close the meeting
 254 17:03:11 <API> thanks everybody for coming here
 255 17:03:27 <API> see you on #a11y, and #a11y-meeting next week
 256 17:03:30 <API> #endmeeting