1 16:06:04 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 16:06:04 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar 28 16:06:04 2013 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:06:04 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:15 <joanie> #topic GSoC Ideas
   5 16:06:48 <joanie> #info At the last meeting (2 weeks ago) we discussed the need to figure out if we as a team would be participating in GSoC this year.
   6 16:07:14 <joanie> #info In particular, our "homework" was to figure out candidate project ideas for Marina and the other organizers
   7 16:07:32 <joanie> I have an idea, but I would like to hear what others thinik first.
   8 16:07:37 * joanie yields the floor
   9 16:07:59 <clown> I have nothing.
  10 16:08:11 <joanie> Funny you mention that. ;)
  11 16:08:14 <joanie> mgorse: you?
  12 16:08:37 <mgorse> I have nothing right now
  13 16:08:41 <joanie> ok
  14 16:09:14 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks we should consider putting the gnome-shell mag caret and focus tracking on the candidate list.
  15 16:09:20 * joanie re-yields the floor
  16 16:10:29 * API thinks that re-yields the floor is an euphemism for "clown, what do you think?"
  17 16:11:02 <joanie> Well, it's open to anyone with comments, but ... yeah.
  18 16:11:05 <clown> interesting...
  19 16:11:13 <joanie> It's a free minion
  20 16:11:20 <joanie> i.e. you supervise the work
  21 16:11:23 <joanie> someone does it for you
  22 16:11:26 <clown> that does incur time to supervis.
  23 16:11:30 <clown> "supervise"
  24 16:11:38 <joanie> which is less than "develop"
  25 16:11:46 <joanie> because I know you are busy
  26 16:11:51 <joanie> but we need this done
  27 16:12:07 <clown> yes, but for the last 4 − 5 months, I've pretty much had zero time for gnome.
  28 16:12:08 <joanie> and if this model is good enough for academia (grad student slave laboor)
  29 16:12:17 <API> clown, the work should be done by the student
  30 16:12:18 <joanie> it might be good enough for us
  31 16:12:22 <clown> but, I'm not saying "no" just yet.
  32 16:12:28 <API> so supervise would mean "just guidance"
  33 16:12:38 <API> answer emails etc
  34 16:12:44 <joanie> and the team can help
  35 16:12:59 <clown> API, well, how much time to you esitmate then?  Say average hours per week?
  36 16:13:50 <API> well, I can't give a given number of hours
  37 16:14:01 <API> what I mean is that it doesn't matter if in the end the student
  38 16:14:10 <API> is not able to get the work done
  39 16:14:21 <API> you will not being sucked to "do her homework"
  40 16:14:38 <API> (saying just in case someone were concerned about that)
  41 16:14:45 <clown> or rather, I should be wary of being suck into doing the homework.
  42 16:14:51 <clown> :-)
  43 16:15:16 <API> we had a gsoc in the past that worked on improve the documentation
  44 16:15:27 <joanie> we did?
  45 16:15:29 <clown> I feel for the student, since a huge chunk of the time is taken up by jhbuild and getting gnome-shell and all of its modules built.
  46 16:15:42 <API> joanie, well, she was mentored by the documentation team
  47 16:15:48 <joanie> who?
  48 16:15:51 <API> but I had the feeling that we were doing most of the review
  49 16:15:55 <API> hmm, elina?
  50 16:16:00 <API> sorry I don't remember the nick
  51 16:16:07 <joanie> I mentored her
  52 16:16:09 <API> mgorse reviewed some big patches from her
  53 16:16:09 <joanie> not docs
  54 16:16:16 <joanie> and not GSoC
  55 16:16:18 <joanie> was OPW
  56 16:16:33 <API> yes I know, but the mentoring
  57 16:16:40 <API> overload is supposed to be similar
  58 16:16:42 <API> right?
  59 16:16:58 <joanie> dunno, but it's a totally different level in theory
  60 16:17:08 <API> or it is supposed that GSoC has a looser/tighter mentoring ties with students
  61 16:17:09 <API> ok
  62 16:17:16 <joanie> GSoC projects are supposed to be bigger (aka harder, and with more competent hackers)
  63 16:17:27 <joanie> whether that means more mentoring or less, I dunno
  64 16:17:38 <API> sorry for mixing topics, I thought that were at some level equivalent
  65 16:18:22 <joanie> so clown what do you think?
  66 16:18:31 <joanie> Or do you need more time to think about it?
  67 16:18:52 <clown> I need more time to think about it.  But, a couple of questions:
  68 16:18:53 <joanie> but I think we should try to decide -- at the latest -- by next week
  69 16:19:12 <clown> If I agree, what are the next steps?  And what are the immediate deadlines?
  70 16:19:12 <joanie> as GNOME will submit it's application as an organization like now (maybe already did)
  71 16:19:25 <joanie> lemme look
  72 16:19:30 <clown> thanks.
  73 16:19:44 <joanie> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-March/msg00052.html
  74 16:20:38 <joanie> looks like one month from now we evaluate candidates
  75 16:21:01 <joanie> I'm looking at https://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2013 now
  76 16:21:05 <clown> I don't see any deadlines yet in terms of when this blurb needs to be added.
  77 16:21:12 * clown looks at that url.
  78 16:21:27 <joanie> 29 March is the deadline for the organization's application
  79 16:21:41 <joanie> 8 April it is published
  80 16:21:55 <clown> 29 Mar is tomorrow.
  81 16:21:59 <joanie> indeed
  82 16:22:02 <clown> tomorrow is a holiday.
  83 16:22:31 <joanie> regardless I think that we would want to have it before students start looking
  84 16:22:39 <joanie> which would be around 8 april
  85 16:24:49 <clown> I always amazed how things randomly conspire to all happen at once:  I have two projects due by next Friday, both of which start Mon.
  86 16:25:03 <joanie> I know the feeling. Trust me.
  87 16:25:07 <clown> and another deadline for today.
  88 16:25:59 <joanie> do you think it's likely that you'll be able to do the actual development work to get this in as a feature for 3.10?
  89 16:26:16 <joanie> if the answer is "no", then I really think we should consider this as a GSoC "idea"
  90 16:26:46 <clown> less and less likely as time goes by, so, like 80% "no".
  91 16:27:05 * joanie nods
  92 16:27:08 <clown> the aegis funding is all but dried up, and the IDRC is hiring me out as a consultant.
  93 16:27:16 <joanie> I understand
  94 16:27:33 <joanie> but the reality is that this needs to be done
  95 16:27:38 <joanie> and keeps getting pushed back
  96 16:27:42 <clown> I'm currently, on average, 3 days/week consulting, and 2 days for whatever else.
  97 16:27:47 <joanie> for valid reasons
  98 16:28:03 <clown> whatever else usually means editing/testing ARIA
  99 16:28:52 <clown> oh, yes.  If there had been a grant for the work, I could have said:  I have funding for this, so I can do the work.
 100 16:29:25 <clown> but, now, it's "this work has no funding.  Fit it in when you can, but the majority of your time is for these other projects".
 101 16:29:42 <joanie> well, it's a shame that Will had led you to believe/conclude that this "feature" was something that belonged in Orca
 102 16:29:59 <clown> oh, yes.  that too.
 103 16:30:11 <joanie> because we all know that it belongs *somewhere*
 104 16:30:15 <clown> it's a shame how difficult is was to get any mag features in...
 105 16:30:16 <joanie> i.e. users expect it and need it
 106 16:30:37 <joanie> all the more reason to give this to a student ;)
 107 16:30:41 <joanie> let them play with the design team
 108 16:30:48 <clown> but back to what's needed right now...
 109 16:31:23 <clown> this ideas page seems to be fairly short — three points:  benefits, requirements
 110 16:31:30 <clown> maybe just two.
 111 16:31:36 <joanie> yup
 112 16:31:44 <joanie> and you already have the write up you can link to
 113 16:31:54 <clown> and there is the description on the features page…let me look it up.
 114 16:31:55 <joanie> i.e. the feature content
 115 16:31:58 * joanie nods
 116 16:32:14 <joanie> were it me, I'd put two short bullets and link to that page you wrote
 117 16:33:10 <clown> feel free to do so :-)
 118 16:33:17 <joanie> I can
 119 16:33:31 <joanie> in fact I was planning on it unless you explicitly told me no
 120 16:33:33 <joanie> ;)
 121 16:33:51 <joanie> hopefully this will get the needed work done, with a minimum requirement for your time
 122 16:33:55 <clown> Oh, okay.  go ahead.  I guess the question is do we officially put my name down as mentor.
 123 16:33:59 <joanie> again, student labor
 124 16:34:07 <joanie> we put yours, mine, and API's
 125 16:34:08 * clown still looking for that link...
 126 16:34:09 <joanie> imho
 127 16:36:20 <clown> wow, the server is slow.  Here it is: https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/Features/FocusCaretTracking
 128 16:37:17 * clown wonders if the re-entrancy problem has been solved due simply to modification in pyatspi and/or gnome-shell itself.
 129 16:37:36 * joanie looks at API and mgorse
 130 16:37:50 <clown> FWIW, there is also this:  https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/Features/TintEnhancement
 131 16:38:03 <API> nothing to say from my side
 132 16:38:05 <mgorse> Not that I know of. I should probably look at it again.
 133 16:38:13 <API> clown, yes true
 134 16:38:18 <API> although somewhat off-topic
 135 16:38:19 <clown> The code is all there (unless someone removed it) for tinting.  It just needs a UI.
 136 16:38:25 <API> do you plan to propose that again as feature?
 137 16:38:37 <clown> mclasen already copied it over.
 138 16:38:47 <API> well, but we can tell him that he is wrong ;)
 139 16:39:04 <clown> lol
 140 16:39:31 <API> we can also propose that task as a student tasks, but probably it would be better to focus in just one feature at a given moment, in order to not add too much noise
 141 16:39:58 <clown> well, my experience with proposing and developing UIs is fairly unsatisfactory.  And, I think UI designer should take it on.  Maybe an up and coming student UI type.
 142 16:40:32 <clown> hmmm…  the screen shot didn't make the transfer.  I wonder why.
 143 16:41:03 <joanie> so what are the (#info-worthy) conclusions at this point?
 144 16:41:56 <clown> proposed info:  joanie to write the two/three point blurb for the GSOC project for focus/caret tracking in the GSOC page.
 145 16:42:06 <joanie> i can do that
 146 16:42:12 <clown> proposed info:  and link to the 3.9 features page.
 147 16:42:20 <clown> shalll I formalize it then?
 148 16:42:24 <joanie> sure
 149 16:42:27 <joanie> and ai me
 150 16:42:43 <clown> "ai"?
 151 16:42:48 <joanie> it would be helpful to have the must-have requirements
 152 16:42:50 <joanie> action item
 153 16:43:33 <clown> #info team agrees to propose the focus/caret tracking functionality for gnome-shell as a GSOC project.
 154 16:44:34 <clown> #info this is a device that runs within gnome-shell that tracks these event and notifies insterested parties (also within gnome-shell).
 155 16:44:47 <clown> #info a primary interested party is gs-mag
 156 16:45:37 <clown> #action joanie to write the short blurb describing the project and add that to the GSOC ideas page (https://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2013/Ideas)
 157 16:45:49 <joanie> yay!
 158 16:45:54 <joanie> thanks clown
 159 16:45:54 <clown> done?
 160 16:46:03 <joanie> I think so more or less
 161 16:46:11 <joanie> the requirements (skills) are?
 162 16:46:14 <joanie> javascript?
 163 16:46:23 <joanie> i.e. we won't get someone with a11y smarts
 164 16:46:26 <clown> joanie:  feel tree to take whatever you want from the infos that describe the issues
 165 16:46:31 * joanie nods
 166 16:46:41 <clown> let me info those reqs...
 167 16:46:49 <joanie> thanks!
 168 16:47:42 <clown> proposed: focus/caret tracker requirements are: JavaScript, knowledge of at-spi (using pyatspi as an informative source),
 169 16:48:25 <clown> I can't remember if any c-level  gobject work was needed...
 170 16:48:33 <joanie> perhaps making at-spi a recommended
 171 16:48:40 <joanie> i.e. if you don't have it, start learning it now
 172 16:49:01 <clown> Oh, now I remember:  I tried to write the whole thing in C/Gobject to get around the reentrancy issue, but to no avail.
 173 16:49:02 <joanie> rather than wait until your app is chosen for GSoC
 174 16:49:13 <joanie> your == the student's
 175 16:49:28 <clown> okay.  Here is the official, then
 176 16:50:03 <clown> #info  focus/caret tracker requirements are: JavaScript.  Recommended: knowledge of at-spi, especially handling of events.
 177 16:50:25 <joanie> awesome
 178 16:50:25 <clown> done, unless you can think of something else.
 179 16:50:36 <joanie> nope, I think that should cover it
 180 16:50:39 <joanie> thank you!!
 181 16:50:45 * clown feel like he just wrote the blurb — rough draft.  :-)
 182 16:50:47 <joanie> I'll add that later today
 183 16:50:59 <joanie> (need to have a non-panicking kernel)
 184 16:51:01 <joanie> ;)
 185 16:51:16 <joanie> or need to give up on having one, at least
 186 16:51:16 <clown> you're welcom.
 187 16:51:24 <clown> and welcomE.
 188 16:51:30 <joanie> :)
 189 16:51:51 <joanie> okay, given the time, and busy-ness, and lack of jjmarin for marketing update
 190 16:52:02 <joanie> that leaves w3c and misc time
 191 16:52:16 <joanie> #topic W3C Updates
 192 16:52:22 <joanie> clown: anything?
 193 16:53:03 <clown> not really.  it's been a couple of weeks of detail work:  clarifying the spec, updating the tests.  Things like that.
 194 16:53:26 <joanie> shall we move on?
 195 16:53:37 <clown> #info no substantial news on the W3C fron.
 196 16:53:46 <clown> s/fron./front
 197 16:53:50 * joanie takes that as a yes
 198 16:53:53 <joanie> :)
 199 16:53:54 * clown yes
 200 16:54:07 <joanie> #topic Misc Time!
 201 16:54:17 <joanie> #info Joanie hates kernel panics
 202 16:54:25 <joanie> anyone else have anything misc?
 203 16:56:47 <joanie> I keep getting broken pipes
 204 16:56:54 * joanie closes the meeting whilst she still can
 205 16:56:57 <joanie> #endmeeting