16:06:04 <joanie> #startmeeting
16:06:04 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar 28 16:06:04 2013 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:04 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:15 <joanie> #topic GSoC Ideas
16:06:48 <joanie> #info At the last meeting (2 weeks ago) we discussed the need to figure out if we as a team would be participating in GSoC this year.
16:07:14 <joanie> #info In particular, our "homework" was to figure out candidate project ideas for Marina and the other organizers
16:07:32 <joanie> I have an idea, but I would like to hear what others thinik first.
16:07:37 * joanie yields the floor
16:07:59 <clown> I have nothing.
16:08:11 <joanie> Funny you mention that. ;)
16:08:14 <joanie> mgorse: you?
16:08:37 <mgorse> I have nothing right now
16:08:41 <joanie> ok
16:09:14 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks we should consider putting the gnome-shell mag caret and focus tracking on the candidate list.
16:09:20 * joanie re-yields the floor
16:10:29 * API thinks that re-yields the floor is an euphemism for "clown, what do you think?"
16:11:02 <joanie> Well, it's open to anyone with comments, but ... yeah.
16:11:05 <clown> interesting...
16:11:13 <joanie> It's a free minion
16:11:20 <joanie> i.e. you supervise the work
16:11:23 <joanie> someone does it for you
16:11:26 <clown> that does incur time to supervis.
16:11:30 <clown> "supervise"
16:11:38 <joanie> which is less than "develop"
16:11:46 <joanie> because I know you are busy
16:11:51 <joanie> but we need this done
16:12:07 <clown> yes, but for the last 4 − 5 months, I've pretty much had zero time for gnome.
16:12:08 <joanie> and if this model is good enough for academia (grad student slave laboor)
16:12:17 <API> clown, the work should be done by the student
16:12:18 <joanie> it might be good enough for us
16:12:22 <clown> but, I'm not saying "no" just yet.
16:12:28 <API> so supervise would mean "just guidance"
16:12:38 <API> answer emails etc
16:12:44 <joanie> and the team can help
16:12:59 <clown> API, well, how much time to you esitmate then?  Say average hours per week?
16:13:50 <API> well, I can't give a given number of hours
16:14:01 <API> what I mean is that it doesn't matter if in the end the student
16:14:10 <API> is not able to get the work done
16:14:21 <API> you will not being sucked to "do her homework"
16:14:38 <API> (saying just in case someone were concerned about that)
16:14:45 <clown> or rather, I should be wary of being suck into doing the homework.
16:14:51 <clown> :-)
16:15:16 <API> we had a gsoc in the past that worked on improve the documentation
16:15:27 <joanie> we did?
16:15:29 <clown> I feel for the student, since a huge chunk of the time is taken up by jhbuild and getting gnome-shell and all of its modules built.
16:15:42 <API> joanie, well, she was mentored by the documentation team
16:15:48 <joanie> who?
16:15:51 <API> but I had the feeling that we were doing most of the review
16:15:55 <API> hmm, elina?
16:16:00 <API> sorry I don't remember the nick
16:16:07 <joanie> I mentored her
16:16:09 <API> mgorse reviewed some big patches from her
16:16:09 <joanie> not docs
16:16:16 <joanie> and not GSoC
16:16:18 <joanie> was OPW
16:16:33 <API> yes I know, but the mentoring
16:16:40 <API> overload is supposed to be similar
16:16:42 <API> right?
16:16:58 <joanie> dunno, but it's a totally different level in theory
16:17:08 <API> or it is supposed that GSoC has a looser/tighter mentoring ties with students
16:17:09 <API> ok
16:17:16 <joanie> GSoC projects are supposed to be bigger (aka harder, and with more competent hackers)
16:17:27 <joanie> whether that means more mentoring or less, I dunno
16:17:38 <API> sorry for mixing topics, I thought that were at some level equivalent
16:18:22 <joanie> so clown what do you think?
16:18:31 <joanie> Or do you need more time to think about it?
16:18:52 <clown> I need more time to think about it.  But, a couple of questions:
16:18:53 <joanie> but I think we should try to decide -- at the latest -- by next week
16:19:12 <clown> If I agree, what are the next steps?  And what are the immediate deadlines?
16:19:12 <joanie> as GNOME will submit it's application as an organization like now (maybe already did)
16:19:25 <joanie> lemme look
16:19:30 <clown> thanks.
16:19:44 <joanie> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-March/msg00052.html
16:20:38 <joanie> looks like one month from now we evaluate candidates
16:21:01 <joanie> I'm looking at https://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2013 now
16:21:05 <clown> I don't see any deadlines yet in terms of when this blurb needs to be added.
16:21:12 * clown looks at that url.
16:21:27 <joanie> 29 March is the deadline for the organization's application
16:21:41 <joanie> 8 April it is published
16:21:55 <clown> 29 Mar is tomorrow.
16:21:59 <joanie> indeed
16:22:02 <clown> tomorrow is a holiday.
16:22:31 <joanie> regardless I think that we would want to have it before students start looking
16:22:39 <joanie> which would be around 8 april
16:24:49 <clown> I always amazed how things randomly conspire to all happen at once:  I have two projects due by next Friday, both of which start Mon.
16:25:03 <joanie> I know the feeling. Trust me.
16:25:07 <clown> and another deadline for today.
16:25:59 <joanie> do you think it's likely that you'll be able to do the actual development work to get this in as a feature for 3.10?
16:26:16 <joanie> if the answer is "no", then I really think we should consider this as a GSoC "idea"
16:26:46 <clown> less and less likely as time goes by, so, like 80% "no".
16:27:05 * joanie nods
16:27:08 <clown> the aegis funding is all but dried up, and the IDRC is hiring me out as a consultant.
16:27:16 <joanie> I understand
16:27:33 <joanie> but the reality is that this needs to be done
16:27:38 <joanie> and keeps getting pushed back
16:27:42 <clown> I'm currently, on average, 3 days/week consulting, and 2 days for whatever else.
16:27:47 <joanie> for valid reasons
16:28:03 <clown> whatever else usually means editing/testing ARIA
16:28:52 <clown> oh, yes.  If there had been a grant for the work, I could have said:  I have funding for this, so I can do the work.
16:29:25 <clown> but, now, it's "this work has no funding.  Fit it in when you can, but the majority of your time is for these other projects".
16:29:42 <joanie> well, it's a shame that Will had led you to believe/conclude that this "feature" was something that belonged in Orca
16:29:59 <clown> oh, yes.  that too.
16:30:11 <joanie> because we all know that it belongs *somewhere*
16:30:15 <clown> it's a shame how difficult is was to get any mag features in...
16:30:16 <joanie> i.e. users expect it and need it
16:30:37 <joanie> all the more reason to give this to a student ;)
16:30:41 <joanie> let them play with the design team
16:30:48 <clown> but back to what's needed right now...
16:31:23 <clown> this ideas page seems to be fairly short — three points:  benefits, requirements
16:31:30 <clown> maybe just two.
16:31:36 <joanie> yup
16:31:44 <joanie> and you already have the write up you can link to
16:31:54 <clown> and there is the description on the features page…let me look it up.
16:31:55 <joanie> i.e. the feature content
16:31:58 * joanie nods
16:32:14 <joanie> were it me, I'd put two short bullets and link to that page you wrote
16:33:10 <clown> feel free to do so :-)
16:33:17 <joanie> I can
16:33:31 <joanie> in fact I was planning on it unless you explicitly told me no
16:33:33 <joanie> ;)
16:33:51 <joanie> hopefully this will get the needed work done, with a minimum requirement for your time
16:33:55 <clown> Oh, okay.  go ahead.  I guess the question is do we officially put my name down as mentor.
16:33:59 <joanie> again, student labor
16:34:07 <joanie> we put yours, mine, and API's
16:34:08 * clown still looking for that link...
16:34:09 <joanie> imho
16:36:20 <clown> wow, the server is slow.  Here it is: https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/Features/FocusCaretTracking
16:37:17 * clown wonders if the re-entrancy problem has been solved due simply to modification in pyatspi and/or gnome-shell itself.
16:37:36 * joanie looks at API and mgorse
16:37:50 <clown> FWIW, there is also this:  https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointNine/Features/TintEnhancement
16:38:03 <API> nothing to say from my side
16:38:05 <mgorse> Not that I know of. I should probably look at it again.
16:38:13 <API> clown, yes true
16:38:18 <API> although somewhat off-topic
16:38:19 <clown> The code is all there (unless someone removed it) for tinting.  It just needs a UI.
16:38:25 <API> do you plan to propose that again as feature?
16:38:37 <clown> mclasen already copied it over.
16:38:47 <API> well, but we can tell him that he is wrong ;)
16:39:04 <clown> lol
16:39:31 <API> we can also propose that task as a student tasks, but probably it would be better to focus in just one feature at a given moment, in order to not add too much noise
16:39:58 <clown> well, my experience with proposing and developing UIs is fairly unsatisfactory.  And, I think UI designer should take it on.  Maybe an up and coming student UI type.
16:40:32 <clown> hmmm…  the screen shot didn't make the transfer.  I wonder why.
16:41:03 <joanie> so what are the (#info-worthy) conclusions at this point?
16:41:56 <clown> proposed info:  joanie to write the two/three point blurb for the GSOC project for focus/caret tracking in the GSOC page.
16:42:06 <joanie> i can do that
16:42:12 <clown> proposed info:  and link to the 3.9 features page.
16:42:20 <clown> shalll I formalize it then?
16:42:24 <joanie> sure
16:42:27 <joanie> and ai me
16:42:43 <clown> "ai"?
16:42:48 <joanie> it would be helpful to have the must-have requirements
16:42:50 <joanie> action item
16:43:33 <clown> #info team agrees to propose the focus/caret tracking functionality for gnome-shell as a GSOC project.
16:44:34 <clown> #info this is a device that runs within gnome-shell that tracks these event and notifies insterested parties (also within gnome-shell).
16:44:47 <clown> #info a primary interested party is gs-mag
16:45:37 <clown> #action joanie to write the short blurb describing the project and add that to the GSOC ideas page (https://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2013/Ideas)
16:45:49 <joanie> yay!
16:45:54 <joanie> thanks clown
16:45:54 <clown> done?
16:46:03 <joanie> I think so more or less
16:46:11 <joanie> the requirements (skills) are?
16:46:14 <joanie> javascript?
16:46:23 <joanie> i.e. we won't get someone with a11y smarts
16:46:26 <clown> joanie:  feel tree to take whatever you want from the infos that describe the issues
16:46:31 * joanie nods
16:46:41 <clown> let me info those reqs...
16:46:49 <joanie> thanks!
16:47:42 <clown> proposed: focus/caret tracker requirements are: JavaScript, knowledge of at-spi (using pyatspi as an informative source),
16:48:25 <clown> I can't remember if any c-level  gobject work was needed...
16:48:33 <joanie> perhaps making at-spi a recommended
16:48:40 <joanie> i.e. if you don't have it, start learning it now
16:49:01 <clown> Oh, now I remember:  I tried to write the whole thing in C/Gobject to get around the reentrancy issue, but to no avail.
16:49:02 <joanie> rather than wait until your app is chosen for GSoC
16:49:13 <joanie> your == the student's
16:49:28 <clown> okay.  Here is the official, then
16:50:03 <clown> #info  focus/caret tracker requirements are: JavaScript.  Recommended: knowledge of at-spi, especially handling of events.
16:50:25 <joanie> awesome
16:50:25 <clown> done, unless you can think of something else.
16:50:36 <joanie> nope, I think that should cover it
16:50:39 <joanie> thank you!!
16:50:45 * clown feel like he just wrote the blurb — rough draft.  :-)
16:50:47 <joanie> I'll add that later today
16:50:59 <joanie> (need to have a non-panicking kernel)
16:51:01 <joanie> ;)
16:51:16 <joanie> or need to give up on having one, at least
16:51:16 <clown> you're welcom.
16:51:24 <clown> and welcomE.
16:51:30 <joanie> :)
16:51:51 <joanie> okay, given the time, and busy-ness, and lack of jjmarin for marketing update
16:52:02 <joanie> that leaves w3c and misc time
16:52:16 <joanie> #topic W3C Updates
16:52:22 <joanie> clown: anything?
16:53:03 <clown> not really.  it's been a couple of weeks of detail work:  clarifying the spec, updating the tests.  Things like that.
16:53:26 <joanie> shall we move on?
16:53:37 <clown> #info no substantial news on the W3C fron.
16:53:46 <clown> s/fron./front
16:53:50 * joanie takes that as a yes
16:53:53 <joanie> :)
16:53:54 * clown yes
16:54:07 <joanie> #topic Misc Time!
16:54:17 <joanie> #info Joanie hates kernel panics
16:54:25 <joanie> anyone else have anything misc?
16:56:47 <joanie> I keep getting broken pipes
16:56:54 * joanie closes the meeting whilst she still can
16:56:57 <joanie> #endmeeting