1 16:06:44 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:06:44 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Feb  7 16:06:44 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:06:44 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:50 <API> clown, just in time ;)
   5 16:06:50 * clown waves
   6 16:06:57 <clown> right API
   7 16:07:11 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
   8 16:07:39 <API> #info As I mentioned last week, mclasen sent a email about the fact that we have not-too-many weeks before API freeze
   9 16:07:57 <API> #info so, please if you have any accessibility change requiring API change, take that into account
  10 16:08:16 <API> #info API is still looking to that gnome-shell crash related with focus changes
  11 16:08:29 <API> #info joanmarie was not able to reproduce it, API has some problems compiling the stack
  12 16:08:41 <clown> I hadn't heard about the g-s focus crash.  bugzilla?
  13 16:08:50 <API> #info API will take a look to the clutter-gtk issue, and see if that would require any API change
  14 16:08:53 * API looking
  15 16:09:02 * joanie notes that doing a find and replace on fearless leaders nick for minutes ain't gonna work this time.
  16 16:09:23 * clown heh
  17 16:09:24 <API> clown, : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=692706
  18 16:09:25 <tota11y> 04Bug 692706: normal, Normal, ---, clutter-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Frequent crash in  cally_stage_notify_key_focus_cb
  19 16:09:29 <API> urgh
  20 16:09:31 <API> yeah sorry
  21 16:09:44 <joanie> it was a joke
  22 16:09:48 <API> again with the "API is working on a new API" full of jokes senteces
  23 16:09:51 <API> sentences too
  24 16:09:59 <joanie> based on something that happened a few minutes postings ago
  25 16:10:05 <API> clown, that bug was mostly submitted by fedora users
  26 16:10:09 <API> different ones
  27 16:10:13 <API> so
  28 16:10:22 <API> in theory should be something "common" and easy to reproduce
  29 16:10:32 <API> but in our specific practice, this is not the case
  30 16:10:43 <API> so I will try a little more and then say ... it works for me
  31 16:10:50 <API> ah btw, those were my 3.8 updates
  32 16:10:56 <joanie> :)
  33 16:11:03 <API> so, anyone want the meeting scepter for this point?
  34 16:11:05 <clown> yes, it's just that when I hear "focus" I think about all the problems I'm with focus tracking in g-s.  They may be completely unrelated.
  35 16:11:08 <joanie> sure
  36 16:11:16 * joanie has some updates
  37 16:11:45 <API> clown, no, it is about "focus" in general, reporting change of focus
  38 16:11:48 <joanie> #info Joanie added the much-requested list-of dialog feature to Orca. She is still finishing it, but it's committed to master for users to try.
  39 16:12:22 <joanie> #info Joanie and Matthias got the egg-list-box accessibility issues sorted out and fixed. This is important because four new panels in gnome-control-center use this widget.
  40 16:12:46 <API> joanie, as Company has just arrived probably it would be good if you repeat the last #info
  41 16:12:49 <clown> API, that's what the focus tracker listens for — changes of fucs.  But, sure, as I said, they are probably completely unrelated.
  42 16:13:02 <clown> "changes of 'focus'"
  43 16:13:13 <joanie> API ok, but dunno why
  44 16:13:19 <joanie> for Company's benefit
  45 16:13:22 <joanie> 16:12:22 <@joanie> #info Joanie and Matthias got the egg-list-box accessibility issues sorted out and  fixed. This is important because four new panels in gnome-control-center use this  widget.
  46 16:13:41 <API> just in case
  47 16:13:43 <joanie> #info Joanie is currently looking into (and will finish) implementing support in Orca for the GtkLevelBar. She found one in the wild in gnome-disk-utility.
  48 16:13:54 <joanie> I think that's all of mine.
  49 16:14:10 <Company> ah good
  50 16:14:15 <Company> so i don't need to follow up on that
  51 16:14:23 <API> about that GtkLevelBar, probably it would be good to mention here that strange usage of that widget that you found on that app
  52 16:14:24 <joanie> Company: you might still
  53 16:14:31 <joanie> I hacked around it in Orca
  54 16:14:39 <joanie> because it was a small, safe, and easy hack
  55 16:14:43 <API> in the sense of "joanie thinks that what gnome-disk-utility is doing is odd"
  56 16:14:45 <joanie> and it gets this blocker off the list
  57 16:14:51 <Company> meh
  58 16:14:57 <joanie> API I am still investigating
  59 16:15:02 <API> joanie, ok
  60 16:15:04 <joanie> which is why I didn't elaborate yet
  61 16:15:09 <Company> I think EggListBox should childrenchanged:remove the rows it doesn't show
  62 16:15:39 <Company> it's not like they should still exist in the UI, so why expose them in a11y
  63 16:15:42 <joanie> Company: give it a try and see if it's still accessible
  64 16:15:52 <joanie> Company: but they do exist in the UI
  65 16:16:00 <joanie> they're scrolled off with a scrollbar
  66 16:16:08 <joanie> but they are there
  67 16:16:13 <Company> oh, the scrolled ones
  68 16:16:18 <joanie> you can press End to jump from the first to the last
  69 16:16:19 <Company> i was thinking filtered ones
  70 16:16:22 <joanie> no
  71 16:16:34 <joanie> the ones that are really there still lack STATE_SHOWING
  72 16:16:54 <joanie> so Orca was assuming they were not something users could see
  73 16:16:59 <joanie> and thus something Orca shouldn't present
  74 16:17:11 <Company> yeah, STATE_SHOWING should probably go away
  75 16:17:16 <Company> whatever that means
  76 16:17:20 <joanie> heh
  77 16:17:27 <joanie> anyway, that's a topic for #a11y
  78 16:17:31 <Company> yeah
  79 16:17:33 <API> Company, yeah, sorry for the delay of removing that
  80 16:17:36 <joanie> fearless leader doesn't approve of deeep dives ;)
  81 16:17:40 <API> as we agreed on that a long time ago
  82 16:17:40 <Company> need to learn how you do it with treeviews and scrolling
  83 16:17:54 <API> but probably it would be good to remove it at the beginning of next cycle
  84 16:17:54 <Company> anyway
  85 16:17:55 <Company> => later
  86 16:18:05 <API> fwiw, I added a new comment on the existing bug
  87 16:18:11 <API> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648260
  88 16:18:11 <tota11y> 04Bug 648260: normal, Normal, ---, atk-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Improve the documentation of ATK_STATE_VISIBLE and deprecate ATK_STATE_SHOWING
  89 16:18:25 <API> about what ia2 have
  90 16:18:36 <API> instead of visible, it has a invisible state
  91 16:18:44 <API> because by general rule
  92 16:18:50 <API> invisible objects shouldn't be exposed
  93 16:18:58 <API> as you and mgorse started to do recently on gtk
  94 16:19:05 <API> so they keep invisible as a exception on the rule
  95 16:19:10 <API> and additionally
  96 16:19:15 <API> they have an offscreen state
  97 16:19:24 <API> as a way to add more detail to the invisible state
  98 16:19:31 <API> (a "why it is invisible") thing
  99 16:19:45 <API> anyway, as I said, as this is a change affecting a lot of places
 100 16:19:54 <API> probably it would be good to do something about that
 101 16:20:01 <joanie> not something for the-almost-beta gnome 3.8 release
 102 16:20:03 <API> at the beginning of the next cycle
 103 16:20:07 <API> yeah
 104 16:20:08 * joanie nods
 105 16:20:34 <API> so, any other comments on this topic?
 106 16:20:47 <joanie> clutter-gtk?
 107 16:21:06 <API> I already talked about that
 108 16:21:13 <joanie> sorry
 109 16:21:15 * joanie scrolls up
 110 16:21:16 <API> do you have any question doubt about what I said?
 111 16:21:23 <joanie> must've missed it
 112 16:21:41 <joanie> aha
 113 16:21:43 <joanie> sorry
 114 16:21:47 <API> np
 115 16:22:25 <API> so joanie, moving or questions?
 116 16:22:27 <mgorse> #info mgorse has been trying to track down memory/ref count leaks. Several are fixed with pygobject 3.7.5 and a recent at-spi2-core. There is still at least one ref count leak left (either in pygobject, at-spi2-core, or orca), so still need to track that down.
 117 16:22:41 <joanie> (I'm done)
 118 16:22:48 <Company> btw
 119 16:23:02 <joanie> mgorse: Orca doesn't ref count anything
 120 16:23:08 <Company> i'm a huge fan of mgorse's work and his patience in tracking down pygobject, introspection and gtk bugs
 121 16:23:13 <Company> in this cycle
 122 16:23:21 <joanie> +1 to that Company
 123 16:23:25 <joanie> mgorse is a hero
 124 16:23:32 <Company> if he keeps up like that, i might be able to drop my maintainership of gail ;)
 125 16:23:41 <jjmarin1> ++1
 126 16:23:47 <joanie> nice try Company
 127 16:23:50 <joanie> you're a hero too
 128 16:23:58 <mgorse> joanie: In theor yit could be storing events in a queue or something, though I'm not sure how likely that is
 129 16:24:04 <Company> joanie: not in the last 6 months
 130 16:24:15 <joanie> mgorse: ok. tell me what to look for and I will
 131 16:24:20 <mgorse> ie, storing objects that don't get released, but I think the leak is probably somewhere else
 132 16:24:28 <joanie> we are queueing and dequeuing events
 133 16:24:54 <joanie> Company: we all have moments when we shine more brightly than others
 134 16:25:02 <joanie> you have earned your hero status
 135 16:25:33 <Company> i can live with that status, no worries :)
 136 16:25:35 <API> basically joanie is menacing you, now you can't run away :P
 137 16:25:48 <joanie> moving on?
 138 16:25:50 <joanie> ;)
 139 16:25:56 <Company> as long as i can continue whining, i'm happy
 140 16:25:57 <jjmarin1> I´m worry about the accessibility of the new gnome classic mode. I think it will be the migration path of the current gnome fallback mode users (sorry if the topic was mentioned before)
 141 16:26:08 <API> whine is free
 142 16:26:16 <joanie> wine is not
 143 16:26:23 <API> jjmarin1, well, the new gnome classic mode
 144 16:26:26 <joanie> that's why it's free as in beer
 145 16:26:28 <joanie> (sorry)
 146 16:26:28 <API> and old fallback mode
 147 16:26:33 <API> is somewhat messy
 148 16:26:38 <API> but imho
 149 16:26:41 <API> the message is the same
 150 16:26:51 <API> we are focusing on the "GNOME experience"
 151 16:27:02 <API> and afaik
 152 16:27:04 <clown> sitting in a garden?
 153 16:27:07 <API> the plan is not selling
 154 16:27:20 <API> "gnome classic" as part of that experience
 155 16:27:23 <API> anyway, yes
 156 16:27:30 <API> this is something to take into account
 157 16:27:35 <API> but sincerely, I would wait a little
 158 16:27:40 <joanie> well, even if the fallback (or classic or whatever) mode is not the primary experience, I thought it was going to be based on the current gnome-shell stuff but look different
 159 16:27:43 <API> until all the forking dust settle a little
 160 16:27:53 <joanie> i.e. benefit from the existing accessibility work API already did
 161 16:28:03 <joanie> in clutter and gnome-shell
 162 16:28:11 <API> yes, but what I mean is that the current status and future is not clear
 163 16:28:17 <API> taking into account that there are forks
 164 16:28:24 <joanie> 16:25:57 <jjmarin1> I´m worry about the accessibility of the new gnome classic mode. I think it will  be the migration path of the current gnome fallback mode users (sorry if the  topic was mentioned before)
 165 16:28:24 <API> that Vincent said that that fork was not really required
 166 16:28:30 <joanie> that is what I was commenting on
 167 16:28:39 <joanie> why would it be inaccessible if gnome-shell is accessible?
 168 16:29:01 <API> as usual: if they made custom widgets and custom widgets, probably that will need custom a11y
 169 16:29:15 <joanie> custom widgets in gnome-shell?
 170 16:29:17 <joanie> but ok
 171 16:29:21 <API> anyway, as I said, I agree on not forgetting this
 172 16:29:32 <API> joanie, gnome-shell is full of custom-widgets
 173 16:29:42 <API> javascript-based custom widgets
 174 16:30:02 <joanie> ok
 175 16:30:03 <API> so, I will try to info the classic mode thing
 176 16:30:11 <joanie> k
 177 16:30:42 <API> #info these last weeks there were several news and updates related to the new GNOME classic mode. Jjmarin is worried about the migration path for the current fallback mode users
 178 16:31:45 <API> #info API thinks that the main focus is on the main "GNOME experience" and that we would need to wait until the situation became more stable, but agreed that is a good idea not forgetting this
 179 16:31:54 <API> so, anything else?
 180 16:31:55 <API> moving?
 181 16:32:07 <jjmarin1> k :-)
 182 16:32:13 <joanie> i'm set
 183 16:32:28 <API> #topic Marketing
 184 16:32:48 <API> btw, I assumed that the foundation bids will be mentioned on this topic, if not I will create a new topic
 185 16:32:48 <API> anyway
 186 16:32:50 <API> jjmarin1, ?
 187 16:33:55 <jjmarin1> #info The start of the time for bids was announced by the GNOME foundation
 188 16:34:46 <jjmarin1> #info http://www.gnome.org/news/2013/02/call-for-bids-for-gnome-accessibility-work/
 189 16:35:17 <jjmarin1> #info API corrected my Spanish article about gnome a11y
 190 16:36:08 <jjmarin1> #Info Juanjo is still working in a article for the annual report and updated entries for the wikipedia
 191 16:36:17 <jjmarin1> done !
 192 16:36:24 <jjmarin1> questions?
 193 16:37:41 <API> well, seems that no ...
 194 16:37:47 <API> or people is slow writing ;)
 195 16:37:55 <API> so, thanks
 196 16:38:01 <jjmarin1> :)
 197 16:38:05 <API> and as nobody made any question
 198 16:38:11 <API> I will move to ... ejem... previous topic
 199 16:38:15 <API> sorry I skipped one
 200 16:38:17 <jjmarin1> wow !
 201 16:38:20 <API> #topic W3C updates
 202 16:38:29 <API> clown, joanie ?
 203 16:38:38 <joanie> not from me
 204 16:38:41 * clown gathers his thoughts...
 205 16:39:24 <clown> #info The first public working draft of Indie UI Events was released in January.
 206 16:39:28 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-indie-ui-events-20130122/
 207 16:40:07 <clown> #info another public working draft of the ARIA Authoring Practices Guide is about to be released sometime in Feburary.
 208 16:40:26 <clown> #info the current editors' draft is here (this will become the next PWD):
 209 16:40:43 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html
 210 16:41:46 <clown> #info there is new discussions within Indie UI working group about user preferences or context being applied while browsing to adjust the content
 211 16:41:56 <clown> questions?
 212 16:42:05 <API> could you elaborate the last item?
 213 16:42:17 <clown> yes.
 214 16:42:47 <clown> first, let me do it without info's...
 215 16:43:12 <clown> Imagine a user who want captions when viewing a video
 216 16:44:02 <clown> it would be very useulf if they could, up front, declare in their browser that they want captioned versions of videos if available.
 217 16:44:31 <clown> the browser would "somehow" retrieve a captioned version of that video.
 218 16:45:23 <clown> there is a lot of territory here; but the Indie UI group is looking into how to encode such preferences within a web app, and how to relay it out.
 219 16:45:45 <clown> it's likely that the matching of preferences to content is handled by the server.
 220 16:45:56 <clown> but, even that is up for discussion at this point.
 221 16:46:01 <clown> does that help?
 222 16:46:32 <joanie> for me it does
 223 16:46:33 <joanie> thanks
 224 16:46:41 <API> yes for me too,
 225 16:46:50 <API> thanks
 226 16:46:57 <clown> no problem.
 227 16:47:06 <API> and as part of the light agenda today
 228 16:47:13 <API> moving to one of the most popular topics
 229 16:47:17 <jjmarin1> clown is good explaining :-)
 230 16:47:17 <API> #topic "Miscellaneous Time"
 231 16:47:27 * clown blushes
 232 16:47:37 <API> #info FOSDEM was this last weekend
 233 16:47:56 <API> #info Piñeiro gave a talk about accessibility
 234 16:48:25 <API> #info specifically about the "accessibility on/off setting not anymore - a11y always on" thing
 235 16:48:39 <API> #info more or less at the same time, the a11y call for bids was announced
 236 16:48:42 <API> (done)
 237 16:50:29 <API> no one want to share any misc info?
 238 16:50:43 <jjmarin1> you are in sync :-P
 239 16:51:12 <joanie> blizzard of doom is coming
 240 16:51:15 <joanie> that's misc
 241 16:51:17 <joanie> :)
 242 16:51:47 <jjmarin1> we have 5C here and it means cold :-)
 243 16:51:56 <clown> indeed.  we are expecting 25 cm of snow in the next 24 hours.
 244 16:52:15 <joanie> there's a chance we'll get up to 60cm
 245 16:52:17 <mgorse> Huh? I don't see it forecasted to get below 50 F in the next few days. /confused/
 246 16:52:27 <joanie> I'm in one of the two feet possible areas
 247 16:52:39 <clown> lukcy joanie!
 248 16:53:03 <joanie> condo association does the shoveling and plowing, so, yeah, I am lucky
 249 16:53:04 <joanie> ;)
 250 16:53:34 <clown> mgorse, where are you located?
 251 16:53:55 <mgorse> clown: Austin, TX ... oh, right--I guess that explains it
 252 16:54:09 <joanie> ha
 253 16:54:21 <mgorse> That would be a lot of snow to shovel, anyway
 254 16:54:25 <clown> yes, you're lucky too — being south.
 255 16:55:04 <API> well all that snow-info was misc enough ;)
 256 16:55:14 <clown> indeed.
 257 16:55:16 <API> so unless someone complains
 258 16:55:21 <API> I will close the meeting
 259 16:55:25 <API> so meeting over
 260 16:55:28 <API> 3....
 261 16:55:30 <API> 2.....
 262 16:55:31 <API> 1....
 263 16:55:36 <API> #stopmeeting
 264 16:55:40 <API> #endmeeting