16:06:44 <API> #startmeeting
16:06:44 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Feb  7 16:06:44 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:44 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:50 <API> clown, just in time ;)
16:06:50 * clown waves
16:06:57 <clown> right API
16:07:11 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
16:07:39 <API> #info As I mentioned last week, mclasen sent a email about the fact that we have not-too-many weeks before API freeze
16:07:57 <API> #info so, please if you have any accessibility change requiring API change, take that into account
16:08:16 <API> #info API is still looking to that gnome-shell crash related with focus changes
16:08:29 <API> #info joanmarie was not able to reproduce it, API has some problems compiling the stack
16:08:41 <clown> I hadn't heard about the g-s focus crash.  bugzilla?
16:08:50 <API> #info API will take a look to the clutter-gtk issue, and see if that would require any API change
16:08:53 * API looking
16:09:02 * joanie notes that doing a find and replace on fearless leaders nick for minutes ain't gonna work this time.
16:09:23 * clown heh
16:09:24 <API> clown, : https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=692706
16:09:25 <tota11y> 04Bug 692706: normal, Normal, ---, clutter-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Frequent crash in  cally_stage_notify_key_focus_cb
16:09:29 <API> urgh
16:09:31 <API> yeah sorry
16:09:44 <joanie> it was a joke
16:09:48 <API> again with the "API is working on a new API" full of jokes senteces
16:09:51 <API> sentences too
16:09:59 <joanie> based on something that happened a few minutes postings ago
16:10:05 <API> clown, that bug was mostly submitted by fedora users
16:10:09 <API> different ones
16:10:13 <API> so
16:10:22 <API> in theory should be something "common" and easy to reproduce
16:10:32 <API> but in our specific practice, this is not the case
16:10:43 <API> so I will try a little more and then say ... it works for me
16:10:50 <API> ah btw, those were my 3.8 updates
16:10:56 <joanie> :)
16:11:03 <API> so, anyone want the meeting scepter for this point?
16:11:05 <clown> yes, it's just that when I hear "focus" I think about all the problems I'm with focus tracking in g-s.  They may be completely unrelated.
16:11:08 <joanie> sure
16:11:16 * joanie has some updates
16:11:45 <API> clown, no, it is about "focus" in general, reporting change of focus
16:11:48 <joanie> #info Joanie added the much-requested list-of dialog feature to Orca. She is still finishing it, but it's committed to master for users to try.
16:12:22 <joanie> #info Joanie and Matthias got the egg-list-box accessibility issues sorted out and fixed. This is important because four new panels in gnome-control-center use this widget.
16:12:46 <API> joanie, as Company has just arrived probably it would be good if you repeat the last #info
16:12:49 <clown> API, that's what the focus tracker listens for — changes of fucs.  But, sure, as I said, they are probably completely unrelated.
16:13:02 <clown> "changes of 'focus'"
16:13:13 <joanie> API ok, but dunno why
16:13:19 <joanie> for Company's benefit
16:13:22 <joanie> 16:12:22 <@joanie> #info Joanie and Matthias got the egg-list-box accessibility issues sorted out and  fixed. This is important because four new panels in gnome-control-center use this  widget.
16:13:41 <API> just in case
16:13:43 <joanie> #info Joanie is currently looking into (and will finish) implementing support in Orca for the GtkLevelBar. She found one in the wild in gnome-disk-utility.
16:13:54 <joanie> I think that's all of mine.
16:14:10 <Company> ah good
16:14:15 <Company> so i don't need to follow up on that
16:14:23 <API> about that GtkLevelBar, probably it would be good to mention here that strange usage of that widget that you found on that app
16:14:24 <joanie> Company: you might still
16:14:31 <joanie> I hacked around it in Orca
16:14:39 <joanie> because it was a small, safe, and easy hack
16:14:43 <API> in the sense of "joanie thinks that what gnome-disk-utility is doing is odd"
16:14:45 <joanie> and it gets this blocker off the list
16:14:51 <Company> meh
16:14:57 <joanie> API I am still investigating
16:15:02 <API> joanie, ok
16:15:04 <joanie> which is why I didn't elaborate yet
16:15:09 <Company> I think EggListBox should childrenchanged:remove the rows it doesn't show
16:15:39 <Company> it's not like they should still exist in the UI, so why expose them in a11y
16:15:42 <joanie> Company: give it a try and see if it's still accessible
16:15:52 <joanie> Company: but they do exist in the UI
16:16:00 <joanie> they're scrolled off with a scrollbar
16:16:08 <joanie> but they are there
16:16:13 <Company> oh, the scrolled ones
16:16:18 <joanie> you can press End to jump from the first to the last
16:16:19 <Company> i was thinking filtered ones
16:16:22 <joanie> no
16:16:34 <joanie> the ones that are really there still lack STATE_SHOWING
16:16:54 <joanie> so Orca was assuming they were not something users could see
16:16:59 <joanie> and thus something Orca shouldn't present
16:17:11 <Company> yeah, STATE_SHOWING should probably go away
16:17:16 <Company> whatever that means
16:17:20 <joanie> heh
16:17:27 <joanie> anyway, that's a topic for #a11y
16:17:31 <Company> yeah
16:17:33 <API> Company, yeah, sorry for the delay of removing that
16:17:36 <joanie> fearless leader doesn't approve of deeep dives ;)
16:17:40 <API> as we agreed on that a long time ago
16:17:40 <Company> need to learn how you do it with treeviews and scrolling
16:17:54 <API> but probably it would be good to remove it at the beginning of next cycle
16:17:54 <Company> anyway
16:17:55 <Company> => later
16:18:05 <API> fwiw, I added a new comment on the existing bug
16:18:11 <API> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=648260
16:18:11 <tota11y> 04Bug 648260: normal, Normal, ---, atk-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Improve the documentation of ATK_STATE_VISIBLE and deprecate ATK_STATE_SHOWING
16:18:25 <API> about what ia2 have
16:18:36 <API> instead of visible, it has a invisible state
16:18:44 <API> because by general rule
16:18:50 <API> invisible objects shouldn't be exposed
16:18:58 <API> as you and mgorse started to do recently on gtk
16:19:05 <API> so they keep invisible as a exception on the rule
16:19:10 <API> and additionally
16:19:15 <API> they have an offscreen state
16:19:24 <API> as a way to add more detail to the invisible state
16:19:31 <API> (a "why it is invisible") thing
16:19:45 <API> anyway, as I said, as this is a change affecting a lot of places
16:19:54 <API> probably it would be good to do something about that
16:20:01 <joanie> not something for the-almost-beta gnome 3.8 release
16:20:03 <API> at the beginning of the next cycle
16:20:07 <API> yeah
16:20:08 * joanie nods
16:20:34 <API> so, any other comments on this topic?
16:20:47 <joanie> clutter-gtk?
16:21:06 <API> I already talked about that
16:21:13 <joanie> sorry
16:21:15 * joanie scrolls up
16:21:16 <API> do you have any question doubt about what I said?
16:21:23 <joanie> must've missed it
16:21:41 <joanie> aha
16:21:43 <joanie> sorry
16:21:47 <API> np
16:22:25 <API> so joanie, moving or questions?
16:22:27 <mgorse> #info mgorse has been trying to track down memory/ref count leaks. Several are fixed with pygobject 3.7.5 and a recent at-spi2-core. There is still at least one ref count leak left (either in pygobject, at-spi2-core, or orca), so still need to track that down.
16:22:41 <joanie> (I'm done)
16:22:48 <Company> btw
16:23:02 <joanie> mgorse: Orca doesn't ref count anything
16:23:08 <Company> i'm a huge fan of mgorse's work and his patience in tracking down pygobject, introspection and gtk bugs
16:23:13 <Company> in this cycle
16:23:21 <joanie> +1 to that Company
16:23:25 <joanie> mgorse is a hero
16:23:32 <Company> if he keeps up like that, i might be able to drop my maintainership of gail ;)
16:23:41 <jjmarin1> ++1
16:23:47 <joanie> nice try Company
16:23:50 <joanie> you're a hero too
16:23:58 <mgorse> joanie: In theor yit could be storing events in a queue or something, though I'm not sure how likely that is
16:24:04 <Company> joanie: not in the last 6 months
16:24:15 <joanie> mgorse: ok. tell me what to look for and I will
16:24:20 <mgorse> ie, storing objects that don't get released, but I think the leak is probably somewhere else
16:24:28 <joanie> we are queueing and dequeuing events
16:24:54 <joanie> Company: we all have moments when we shine more brightly than others
16:25:02 <joanie> you have earned your hero status
16:25:33 <Company> i can live with that status, no worries :)
16:25:35 <API> basically joanie is menacing you, now you can't run away :P
16:25:48 <joanie> moving on?
16:25:50 <joanie> ;)
16:25:56 <Company> as long as i can continue whining, i'm happy
16:25:57 <jjmarin1> I´m worry about the accessibility of the new gnome classic mode. I think it will be the migration path of the current gnome fallback mode users (sorry if the topic was mentioned before)
16:26:08 <API> whine is free
16:26:16 <joanie> wine is not
16:26:23 <API> jjmarin1, well, the new gnome classic mode
16:26:26 <joanie> that's why it's free as in beer
16:26:28 <joanie> (sorry)
16:26:28 <API> and old fallback mode
16:26:33 <API> is somewhat messy
16:26:38 <API> but imho
16:26:41 <API> the message is the same
16:26:51 <API> we are focusing on the "GNOME experience"
16:27:02 <API> and afaik
16:27:04 <clown> sitting in a garden?
16:27:07 <API> the plan is not selling
16:27:20 <API> "gnome classic" as part of that experience
16:27:23 <API> anyway, yes
16:27:30 <API> this is something to take into account
16:27:35 <API> but sincerely, I would wait a little
16:27:40 <joanie> well, even if the fallback (or classic or whatever) mode is not the primary experience, I thought it was going to be based on the current gnome-shell stuff but look different
16:27:43 <API> until all the forking dust settle a little
16:27:53 <joanie> i.e. benefit from the existing accessibility work API already did
16:28:03 <joanie> in clutter and gnome-shell
16:28:11 <API> yes, but what I mean is that the current status and future is not clear
16:28:17 <API> taking into account that there are forks
16:28:24 <joanie> 16:25:57 <jjmarin1> I´m worry about the accessibility of the new gnome classic mode. I think it will  be the migration path of the current gnome fallback mode users (sorry if the  topic was mentioned before)
16:28:24 <API> that Vincent said that that fork was not really required
16:28:30 <joanie> that is what I was commenting on
16:28:39 <joanie> why would it be inaccessible if gnome-shell is accessible?
16:29:01 <API> as usual: if they made custom widgets and custom widgets, probably that will need custom a11y
16:29:15 <joanie> custom widgets in gnome-shell?
16:29:17 <joanie> but ok
16:29:21 <API> anyway, as I said, I agree on not forgetting this
16:29:32 <API> joanie, gnome-shell is full of custom-widgets
16:29:42 <API> javascript-based custom widgets
16:30:02 <joanie> ok
16:30:03 <API> so, I will try to info the classic mode thing
16:30:11 <joanie> k
16:30:42 <API> #info these last weeks there were several news and updates related to the new GNOME classic mode. Jjmarin is worried about the migration path for the current fallback mode users
16:31:45 <API> #info API thinks that the main focus is on the main "GNOME experience" and that we would need to wait until the situation became more stable, but agreed that is a good idea not forgetting this
16:31:54 <API> so, anything else?
16:31:55 <API> moving?
16:32:07 <jjmarin1> k :-)
16:32:13 <joanie> i'm set
16:32:28 <API> #topic Marketing
16:32:48 <API> btw, I assumed that the foundation bids will be mentioned on this topic, if not I will create a new topic
16:32:48 <API> anyway
16:32:50 <API> jjmarin1, ?
16:33:55 <jjmarin1> #info The start of the time for bids was announced by the GNOME foundation
16:34:46 <jjmarin1> #info http://www.gnome.org/news/2013/02/call-for-bids-for-gnome-accessibility-work/
16:35:17 <jjmarin1> #info API corrected my Spanish article about gnome a11y
16:36:08 <jjmarin1> #Info Juanjo is still working in a article for the annual report and updated entries for the wikipedia
16:36:17 <jjmarin1> done !
16:36:24 <jjmarin1> questions?
16:37:41 <API> well, seems that no ...
16:37:47 <API> or people is slow writing ;)
16:37:55 <API> so, thanks
16:38:01 <jjmarin1> :)
16:38:05 <API> and as nobody made any question
16:38:11 <API> I will move to ... ejem... previous topic
16:38:15 <API> sorry I skipped one
16:38:17 <jjmarin1> wow !
16:38:20 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:38:29 <API> clown, joanie ?
16:38:38 <joanie> not from me
16:38:41 * clown gathers his thoughts...
16:39:24 <clown> #info The first public working draft of Indie UI Events was released in January.
16:39:28 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-indie-ui-events-20130122/
16:40:07 <clown> #info another public working draft of the ARIA Authoring Practices Guide is about to be released sometime in Feburary.
16:40:26 <clown> #info the current editors' draft is here (this will become the next PWD):
16:40:43 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/Overview.html
16:41:46 <clown> #info there is new discussions within Indie UI working group about user preferences or context being applied while browsing to adjust the content
16:41:56 <clown> questions?
16:42:05 <API> could you elaborate the last item?
16:42:17 <clown> yes.
16:42:47 <clown> first, let me do it without info's...
16:43:12 <clown> Imagine a user who want captions when viewing a video
16:44:02 <clown> it would be very useulf if they could, up front, declare in their browser that they want captioned versions of videos if available.
16:44:31 <clown> the browser would "somehow" retrieve a captioned version of that video.
16:45:23 <clown> there is a lot of territory here; but the Indie UI group is looking into how to encode such preferences within a web app, and how to relay it out.
16:45:45 <clown> it's likely that the matching of preferences to content is handled by the server.
16:45:56 <clown> but, even that is up for discussion at this point.
16:46:01 <clown> does that help?
16:46:32 <joanie> for me it does
16:46:33 <joanie> thanks
16:46:41 <API> yes for me too,
16:46:50 <API> thanks
16:46:57 <clown> no problem.
16:47:06 <API> and as part of the light agenda today
16:47:13 <API> moving to one of the most popular topics
16:47:17 <jjmarin1> clown is good explaining :-)
16:47:17 <API> #topic "Miscellaneous Time"
16:47:27 * clown blushes
16:47:37 <API> #info FOSDEM was this last weekend
16:47:56 <API> #info Piñeiro gave a talk about accessibility
16:48:25 <API> #info specifically about the "accessibility on/off setting not anymore - a11y always on" thing
16:48:39 <API> #info more or less at the same time, the a11y call for bids was announced
16:48:42 <API> (done)
16:50:29 <API> no one want to share any misc info?
16:50:43 <jjmarin1> you are in sync :-P
16:51:12 <joanie> blizzard of doom is coming
16:51:15 <joanie> that's misc
16:51:17 <joanie> :)
16:51:47 <jjmarin1> we have 5C here and it means cold :-)
16:51:56 <clown> indeed.  we are expecting 25 cm of snow in the next 24 hours.
16:52:15 <joanie> there's a chance we'll get up to 60cm
16:52:17 <mgorse> Huh? I don't see it forecasted to get below 50 F in the next few days. /confused/
16:52:27 <joanie> I'm in one of the two feet possible areas
16:52:39 <clown> lukcy joanie!
16:53:03 <joanie> condo association does the shoveling and plowing, so, yeah, I am lucky
16:53:04 <joanie> ;)
16:53:34 <clown> mgorse, where are you located?
16:53:55 <mgorse> clown: Austin, TX ... oh, right--I guess that explains it
16:54:09 <joanie> ha
16:54:21 <mgorse> That would be a lot of snow to shovel, anyway
16:54:25 <clown> yes, you're lucky too — being south.
16:55:04 <API> well all that snow-info was misc enough ;)
16:55:14 <clown> indeed.
16:55:16 <API> so unless someone complains
16:55:21 <API> I will close the meeting
16:55:25 <API> so meeting over
16:55:28 <API> 3....
16:55:30 <API> 2.....
16:55:31 <API> 1....
16:55:36 <API> #stopmeeting
16:55:40 <API> #endmeeting