16:06:44 <API> #startmeeting
16:06:44 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jan 31 16:06:44 2013 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:44 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:59 <API> #topic GtkOverlay, GtkLevelBar, and egg-list-box
16:07:20 <API> #info Matthias Clasen has pinged recently about some new gtk widgets GtkOverlay and GtkLevelBar
16:07:41 <API> #info their accessibility status is unknown at the moment
16:08:00 <API> #info for GtkOverlay Gtk includes a demo, he was not sure about GtkLevelBar
16:08:27 <API> #info he asked if a11y team could made a review, at least a quick "this is not working/this is working" review
16:08:53 <API> #info he also pointed a bug related to the lack of accessibility for egg-list-box, that seems that it is used on some modules
16:09:12 <API> #info on the bug is also pointed that egg-list-box is just a subclass of a gtkwidget with proper a11y support
16:09:17 <API> (done)
16:09:25 <API> joanie, did I forget something?
16:09:44 <joanie> #action Joanie will finish setting up her jhbuild environment and test those new widgets.
16:09:50 <joanie> I don't believe so
16:09:53 <mgorse> I made a patch a while ago for GtkLevelBar, mostly to add AtkValue support, but I think we need a new role (I have an unreviewed patch on bug 651343 to add one)
16:09:53 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=651343 enhancement, Normal, ---, jdiggs, REOPENED, New ATK Roles
16:10:20 * joanie looks at the patch
16:10:41 <joanie> makes sense to me
16:10:43 <joanie> API?
16:10:56 <API> joanie, I¡m opening that bug
16:10:57 <API> a mon pelase
16:11:00 <API> *please
16:11:16 <mgorse> although I haven't tested my patch outside of writing an AtkValue test in gtk, so it could use testing anyhow
16:11:28 <API> hmm, I missed that bug
16:11:38 <API> not sure if it was because it was a reopened instead a new one
16:11:55 <API> anyway, and about the question of a new role or using a new one
16:12:02 <mgorse> oh; I'd kind of forgotten about it. I should have just pinged you
16:12:07 <API> why info_bar doesn't fit here?
16:12:14 <joanie> because it's not an info bar
16:12:15 <joanie> ;)
16:12:27 <API> well info_bar description is really general
16:12:28 <API> imho
16:12:29 <joanie> an info bar are those things like "do you want to remember your password"
16:12:45 <API> and what shows level bar?
16:12:48 <joanie> and I believe there is even a GtkInfoBar
16:12:49 <API> I thought that was somethign like
16:12:56 <joanie> password is weak
16:12:58 <joanie> ok
16:12:58 <joanie> strong
16:12:59 <API> "your password is crap" or something
16:13:03 <joanie> yeah
16:13:12 <joanie> but it's an AtkValue representation
16:13:18 <API> isn't that an info?
16:13:21 <API> ah, ok
16:13:21 <joanie> not a mere text notification
16:13:24 <API> it is not a message
16:13:31 <API> but those bar with colors and stuff
16:13:32 <joanie> any more than a progress bar is a message
16:13:50 <joanie> it's a value along a continuum
16:13:58 <API> ok, sorry, I didn't check any app using it
16:14:15 <API> I thought that it included text with that message
16:14:20 <joanie> it might
16:14:28 <joanie> but that doesn't make it an info bar
16:14:38 <joanie> that means atk value needs to support non numeric stuff ;)
16:14:41 <joanie> like a description
16:14:44 <joanie> for which I think we have a bug
16:14:48 <joanie> but that's a deep dive
16:15:11 <joanie> i'm in favor of adding the new role to atk
16:15:15 <API> well, /me just wondering if it make sense to have so many _BAR roles
16:15:17 <joanie> then to at-spi2
16:15:19 <joanie> and then Orca
16:15:26 <API> but if it adds value, I'm ok with adding that new role
16:15:35 <joanie> pun intended? :)
16:15:46 <API> hmm no
16:15:51 <mgorse> I think atk does support non-numeric values in theory, since it returns a gvalue, but AT-SPI assumes that it will be a number
16:15:52 <joanie> :)
16:15:53 <API> if that was a pun, was a really bad pun
16:16:07 <joanie> (It was a good pun)
16:16:17 <API> mgorse, yes in theory on atkvalue you could add whatever you want
16:16:32 <API> but as you say at-spi is waiting for a number
16:16:36 <joanie> but having a number one can reliably get is nice too
16:16:49 <joanie> I'd rather see a description
16:17:23 <joanie> anyhoo, API action to review the patch and mgorse to commit it and make corresponding changes in AT-SPI2?
16:17:29 <mgorse> Okay; I'll plan on committing that patch then, and adding to AT-SPI2. Would be good to get it in before 3.7.5
16:17:39 <mgorse> oh
16:17:50 <API> well, I have just set the patch to accepted
16:17:55 <joanie> yay
16:17:59 <API> so in any case
16:18:08 <mgorse> #action mgorse will commit a patch to add ATK_ROLE_LEVEL_BAR and make a similar patch for AT-SPI2
16:18:18 <API> mgorse, ok thanks
16:18:23 <API> something else in this point?
16:18:26 <joanie> #action Joanie will add that support into Orca.
16:18:53 <mgorse> Hmm. Anyone know if gtk3-demo has a levelbar?
16:18:55 <joanie> (nothing else from me)
16:19:06 <API> mgorse, I asked the same to mclasen yesterday
16:19:09 <API> he was not sure
16:19:21 <joanie> I'm jhbuilding now
16:19:26 <joanie> but I have a ways to go
16:19:43 <API> ok
16:19:49 <joanie> the color choose might be
16:20:03 <API> mgorse, and as I say, he thought that gtkoverlay has a demo
16:20:04 <joanie> s/choose/chooser/
16:20:13 <API> so seems that it has a specific demo for it
16:20:14 <joanie> so one more thing on this point
16:20:38 * API waiting before move
16:20:40 <joanie> #info At some point, we should make time to be sure for every accessible widget, there is a Gtk3 demo for it.
16:20:43 <joanie> (done)
16:21:22 <API> a king of general gtk3-demo review?
16:21:27 <joanie> yeah
16:21:34 <API> ok. makes sense
16:21:40 <joanie> because if the Gtk devs get into that habit
16:21:40 <API> anyway, moving
16:21:41 <jjmarin> +1
16:21:45 <joanie> and we get into that habit
16:21:53 <joanie> we'll all be on top of this
16:22:12 <API> #topic Clutter-GTK
16:22:23 <API> #info mclasen also asked about the clutter-gtk situation
16:22:34 <API> #info API was busy by other different tasks these days
16:22:51 <API> #info joanie asked him a list of apps using it, and it seems that it is far longer that we expected
16:23:01 * joanie frowns
16:23:30 <API> #action API will try to look to clutter-gtk, probably it is a good moment for another "FOSDEM-effect", using the most of airports and that stuff
16:23:38 <API> questions, doubts?
16:23:41 * jjmarin has notice a Clutter + a11y integration item in the Developer Experience Hackfest https://live.gnome.org/DeveloperExperience/Hackfest2013/Toolkit Is this related ?
16:24:00 <jjmarin> s/notice/noticed/
16:24:19 * API looking
16:24:30 <API> well, related in the sense of "related with clutter"
16:24:43 <API> but on the comments they are talking of GtkClutterActor
16:25:02 <API> one of the problems with clutter-gtk
16:25:07 <API> is that is was already decided his dead
16:25:22 <API> eventually gtk will start to use clutter in order to "do fancy stuff"
16:25:28 <API> making clutter-gtk obsolete
16:25:33 <joanie> and even though it was declared dead, more apps keep using it
16:25:37 <API> GtkClutterActor, AFAIK, is the effort
16:25:44 <API> in their first steps, to do that integration
16:25:59 <API> joanie, well Company was really assertive about that
16:26:13 <API> he thinks that clutter-gtk should be declared totally dead
16:26:13 <joanie> I know. And Matthias then suggested otherwise
16:26:18 <API> and focus on the integration
16:26:34 <joanie> so we need them to make up their minds
16:26:36 <API> well, you know that Company usually forgets the short and medium term ;)
16:26:44 <joanie> heh
16:26:46 <jjmarin> :-)
16:26:46 <API> the fact is that in the short term
16:26:50 <API> clutter-gtk will be there
16:27:18 <API> so any other question, comment on this point?
16:27:33 <jjmarin> I hope you can find the time in FOSDEM to talk about this with our collegues :-)
16:27:49 <joanie> :)
16:27:51 <API> well, afaik, benjamin will not be there
16:27:57 <API> the same with mclasen
16:28:11 <API> although a kind of release team meeting is planned
16:28:24 <API> anyway, I can mention this stuff on misc time
16:28:27 <API> so ... moving
16:28:36 <API> #topic Other GNOME 3.8 updates
16:28:56 <API> #info mclasen sent a recent mail to desktop-devel-list
16:28:58 <API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2013-January/msg00033.html
16:29:20 <API> #info it is basically a, in just three weeks stuff will start to be declared frozen
16:29:38 <API> #info it would be good to review the status of everything new and features
16:30:10 <API> #info right now there are about 70 bugs marked as gnome_target=3.8
16:30:41 <API> #info in relation with previous clutter-gtk comments, we need to take that into account, as probably solving clutter-gtk issue would mean new API
16:30:42 <API> done
16:30:55 <API> questions? more comments about 3.8?
16:32:51 <API> about 3 minutes of silence, I assume that we don't have more questions or comments
16:33:01 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:33:04 <API> joseph is not here
16:33:11 <API> joanie, any update from your side?
16:33:18 <joanie> Nope
16:34:36 <API> ok, then moving
16:34:43 <API> #topic Marketing
16:34:44 <API> jjmarin, ?
16:34:48 <jjmarin> ok
16:35:12 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo sent an small Spanish article to API for review
16:35:49 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo has started an article about the a11y FoG campaign for the annual report
16:36:06 <API> #info API still didn't have time to review the spanish article,will do that as part of the aiport-flight holes I mentioned before
16:36:37 <jjmarin> perfect, no hurry !!! :-)
16:37:07 <jjmarin> I also wondering if it is a good idea to complete the gnome a11y info from the wikipedia
16:37:17 <jjmarin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface
16:37:24 <jjmarin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessibility_Toolkit
16:37:25 * API looking
16:37:51 <API> well for at-spi I think that more stuff could be added
16:38:04 <API> ie: started with bonobo deprecated, now at-spi2 dbus
16:38:17 <jjmarin> what do you think ? I think it is a good idea to give better information there, because it is a place where a lot of people look for info
16:38:32 <API> on the ATK , probably add that there are more implementations
16:38:52 <jjmarin> Ok, I add then to my ToDo list
16:39:22 <joanie> yay
16:39:40 <joanie> I always wondered who could/should tackle the wikipedia updating stuff
16:39:57 <joanie> on the one hand, we know the information; on the other hand aren't you not supposed to "edit your own stuff"?
16:40:32 <jjmarin> yes, we can do. But wikepedians wants the truth :-)
16:40:36 <API> well, that is vague
16:40:47 <API> I mean that you shouldn't edit your own
16:40:48 <API> stuff
16:40:54 <jjmarin> they usually want a citation to be sure it is truth
16:41:00 <API> is it is your bio , it is clear "your own stuff"
16:41:09 <API> but for stuff like this
16:41:17 <API> atk and at-spi was there long before us
16:41:29 <API> we are working on us, but a lot of others too
16:41:37 <joanie> yes, but we own them now. bwuahahahaha
16:41:43 * joanie clears her throat
16:41:47 <joanie> sorry, you were saying?
16:41:49 <API> and as jjmarin, I guess that if we provide enough citation that would be enough
16:41:49 <joanie> ;)
16:41:55 <joanie> I agree
16:41:56 <API> anyway ... moving?
16:41:57 <API> anything else?
16:42:00 <joanie> nope
16:42:02 <mgorse> So docs or the project's web site could be cited
16:42:25 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo will contact wikipedians to follow the process for editing the gnome a11y entries
16:42:26 <API> mgorse, yeah, for example
16:42:34 <API> or about the at-spi change to dbus
16:42:40 <API> some of the posts about the change
16:42:48 <API> or just that analysis made by rob taylor
16:42:48 <API> etc
16:43:05 <API> I guess that there are enough documentation on the internet to support any change
16:43:34 <mgorse> If we want something and don't have a citation or it, then anyhow it's a sign that our documentation could be improved there
16:43:40 <mgorse> s/or/for/
16:43:58 <API> mgorse, yeah, good pint
16:44:00 <API> *point
16:44:43 <mgorse> pint (n): an attempt at a point, made quickly by someone who didn't notice that he missed a letter while typing
16:45:06 <jjmarin> cheers !!! :P
16:45:14 <API> :P
16:45:22 <joanie> hahaha
16:45:28 <API> I assume that that is a "lets move to next point"
16:45:36 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
16:45:40 <joanie> I could use a pint
16:45:48 <API> #info FOSDEM will be this weekend
16:46:02 <mgorse> Are you all going?
16:46:04 <API> #info API will have a presentation, and possibly, a release-team meeting there
16:46:37 <API> #info possibly because not all the release team will be there, so probably will be just a meeting with some to talk about stuff, so a release-team "meeting"
16:46:39 <API> (done)
16:47:27 <joanie> I'm not going
16:47:50 <joanie> but Fearless Leader can represent us
16:48:36 <jjmarin> sure !!!
16:48:57 <jjmarin> Maybe I will watch the video
16:48:58 <joanie> he'll have to drink our beer for us. ;)
16:49:18 <jjmarin> or the movie :-)
16:49:19 <joanie> good point, I wonder if they'll live stream the cross-desktop track?
16:50:00 <jjmarin> I now they record some talks http://video.fosdem.org/
16:50:04 <API> no idea
16:51:08 <jjmarin> I have a question. I've notice nautilus doesn't present any keyboard shortcuts in their menus
16:51:42 <jjmarin> I think this is a nuance for our users. What do you think ?
16:52:08 <jjmarin> I'm worried because Evince will have the same problem for GNOME 3.8
16:52:16 <joanie> the brave new menus?
16:52:21 <jjmarin> yeah !
16:52:39 <joanie> and if Evince is not accessible in time for GNOME 3.8, that won't matter much. ;)
16:52:51 * joanie looks at nautilus
16:53:34 <jjmarin> new tab for example, I now it is Ctrl+T, but it is not shown in the menu
16:53:35 <joanie> well, some of the existing shortcuts seem to not be shown in the menus, but still work I think
16:53:41 * joanie nods
16:53:56 <joanie> could you file a bug to find out if that was an intentional design decision?
16:53:57 <jjmarin> yes, the new tab at least work
16:54:48 <joanie> because you're right in that it is not especially discoverable for new users
16:54:55 <jjmarin> Orca users are informed of this shortcuts when they open the menu (in case they are in the menu)
16:54:58 <joanie> I haven't looked in the menus recently
16:55:09 <jjmarin> s/open/on/
16:55:17 <joanie> so they are still exposed to us
16:55:28 <joanie> but what if you are not an Orca user?
16:55:46 <jjmarin> very true :-)
16:56:17 <joanie> if you could file a bug (assuming one hasn't already been filed) and CC me and API that would be great.
16:56:28 <jjmarin> ok
16:56:36 <joanie> thanks!
16:56:39 <jjmarin> np
16:57:24 <jjmarin> :-)
16:57:42 <jjmarin> API, are you in Brusels ?
16:57:44 <API> well, so this time it was a productive misc time
16:57:50 <API> hmm
16:57:51 <API> no
16:57:56 <API> I'm going tomorrow morning
16:58:09 <jjmarin> ah, ok, then have a good travel :-)
16:58:11 <API> so, unless anyone has anything else to say
16:58:15 <joanie> misc time should not be productive
16:58:16 <jjmarin> nop
16:58:16 <API> I will close the meeting
16:58:28 <API> #closemeeting
16:58:28 <joanie> just snarky comments
16:58:29 <API> hmm
16:58:32 <API> #endmeeting