1 16:07:41 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:07:41 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Dec 20 16:07:41 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:07:41 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:07:58 <API> #topic Python 3 (Are we there yet?)
   5 16:08:23 <API> so the question is if accerciser is a happy python3 program now
   6 16:08:28 <API> who has the answer?
   7 16:08:37 <clown> not me.
   8 16:08:39 * joanie hangs her head in shame
   9 16:08:42 <joanie> and builds it
  10 16:08:43 <joanie> now
  11 16:08:58 <clown> where's javier?
  12 16:09:19 <joanie> in the meantime, how's the mag example?
  13 16:09:36 <joanie> as in theory Accerciser is converted
  14 16:10:29 <clown> I have not found any time for the mag example.
  15 16:10:53 <clown> every time I think I have a  few cycles, something else with higher priority comes up.
  16 16:11:27 <jjmarin1> gnome-shell crashed :-/
  17 16:11:34 <joanie> accerciser runs
  18 16:11:42 <clown> last week, I said I might get it done buy end of Jan.  I intend to stick to that schedule.
  19 16:11:43 <joanie> though looks like I need ipython for python 3.3
  20 16:11:56 <clown> gnome-shell crashed because … ?
  21 16:12:13 <joanie> #info Accerciser is not fully working for Joanie in Python 3.3
  22 16:12:14 * clown always worried that it's gs-mag...
  23 16:12:35 <joanie> #info Accerciser's Interface viewer is not showing states (at least)
  24 16:12:43 <jjmarin1> clown: sorry, I just reconnect because the crash. I didn't you were talking
  25 16:13:14 <clown> jjmarin1:  ah, I see.  you disconnected.  Odd, I didn't notice.  (Sorry).
  26 16:13:18 <joanie> #action Joanie will triage the python 3.3 failures in Accerciser and submit patches so that we are fully working.
  27 16:13:50 <joanie> #info The Magnification example is not yet python 3 compatible either
  28 16:13:56 <joanie> #info Conclusion: We are not there yet.
  29 16:13:58 <joanie> done
  30 16:14:07 <clown> thanks joanie
  31 16:14:34 <API> ok, so any other questions here?
  32 16:15:41 <API> seems that no
  33 16:15:43 <API> so moving
  34 16:15:55 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
  35 16:16:19 <API> #info this week is GNOME 3.7.3 week
  36 16:16:44 <API> not sure if it is worth to list how many new releases of
  37 16:16:49 <API> a11y stuff we did
  38 16:16:57 <API> but just in case: caribou, atk, AFAIK orca
  39 16:17:07 <API> so, independently of new releases
  40 16:17:08 <joanie> accerciser
  41 16:17:34 <mgorse> AT-SPI
  42 16:17:34 <API> someone wants to share significant updates towards 3.8?
  43 16:17:55 <joanie> I wonder if it's worth talking about things like new states, etc.?
  44 16:18:11 <joanie> i.e. tackling some of the ATK/AT-SPI2 hackfest items
  45 16:18:28 <joanie> which means AT-SPI2 changes, pyatspi changes, orca changes
  46 16:18:33 <joanie> potentially Gtk+ changes
  47 16:19:15 <joanie> or not
  48 16:19:16 <joanie> ;)
  49 16:19:42 <API> joanie, yeah, please add some pretty #infos about that
  50 16:19:50 <joanie> heh
  51 16:20:00 <joanie> well, I dunno if we have a conclusion yet
  52 16:20:01 <joanie> but ok
  53 16:20:34 <joanie> #info We have a number of changes which have been on the TODO list since the ATK/AT-SPI2 hackfest in May 2011.
  54 16:20:50 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks it is high time we start addressing those items.
  55 16:21:08 <joanie> #info What we do w.r.t. API changes and possible breaks still needs to be discussed.
  56 16:21:29 <joanie> #info But changes to ATK will then require changes in AT-SPI2 and pyatspi
  57 16:21:39 <joanie> #info And then in the ATs like Orca and Accerciser
  58 16:21:53 <joanie> #info And then we'll request toolkits implement those things
  59 16:22:22 <joanie> #info Thus Joanie feels that if we indeed wish to tackle these things for the GNOME 3.8 release, we need to start the ATK stuff now.
  60 16:22:26 <joanie> (pretty enough?)
  61 16:22:35 <clown> gorgeous!
  62 16:22:44 * joanie bows
  63 16:23:14 <joanie> on a different note:
  64 16:23:38 <joanie> #info Joanie forgot to research how far back the Glib equivalent functions for GObject functions go
  65 16:23:53 <joanie> mgorse: this is why I haven't committed that patch to pyatspi yet
  66 16:24:16 <joanie> the methods exist in ubuntu 11.04 I think
  67 16:24:41 <joanie> anyhoo, someone stop me before I type again
  68 16:25:56 * API hearing the crickets
  69 16:26:11 <API> well, it seems that it was a slow week, probably due christmas coming
  70 16:26:23 <API> so unless someone complains, I will move to next point?
  71 16:26:30 <joanie> might as well
  72 16:26:32 <clown> next couple of weeks are going to be even slower, methinks.
  73 16:26:33 <API> s/"?"/" "
  74 16:26:35 <mgorse> pygobject 2.9.01 was released in AUgust '11
  75 16:26:44 <mgorse> so I guess we don't need to update anything. I should coment on the bug
  76 16:26:53 <joanie> mgorse: thanks!
  77 16:28:01 <API> #topic W3C updates
  78 16:28:03 <API> clown, ?
  79 16:28:11 <clown> a couple of things.
  80 16:28:53 <clown> #info The editor's draft of the Independent UI events is almost ready for the next step.
  81 16:29:05 <clown> #info that next step is "working draft" status.
  82 16:29:37 <clown> #info any who are interested in tracking progress, the editor's draft is here:  http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/tip/src/indie-ui-events.html
  83 16:30:27 <clown> #info also, a question has come up about the place of the aria role "toolbar" within the aria  taxonomy.
  84 16:30:40 <clown> #info it has been suggested that toolbars are "composite widgets".
  85 16:30:56 <clown> #info there has been one strong objecttion to this.
  86 16:31:06 * API just skimming, feeling that he lack a lot of background
  87 16:31:27 <joanie> is a "composite widget" a container of other widgets?
  88 16:31:42 <clown> #info the objectioin is based on this other aria requirement:  Authors SHOULD ensure that a composite widget exist as a single navigation stop within the larger navigation system of the web page. Once the composite widget has focus, authorsSHOULD provide a separate navigation mechanism for users to navigate to elements that are descendants or owned children of the composite element.
  89 16:32:00 <clown> joanie, yes.
  90 16:32:18 <joanie> well, a toolbar is keyboard navigable if done correctly
  91 16:32:33 <clown> and, I'll point out it seems intuitively obvious that a toolbar is a composite widget, but in ARIA 1.0, it isn't.
  92 16:32:34 <joanie> and the toolbar then provides its own navigation amongst child objects
  93 16:33:02 <joanie> but I think that the quoted Aria requirement is consistent with what we expect of toolbars
  94 16:33:05 <clown> IMHO, if one has multiple toolbars, one wants TAB for moving between the toolbar, and arrows for moving within.
  95 16:33:05 <joanie> is it not??
  96 16:34:12 <clown> the aria requirement I cited fits with the example I just gave of multiple toolbars (which means I"m leaning towards the toolbar = composite widget).
  97 16:34:26 <joanie> :)
  98 16:34:42 <joanie> but you prefaced your requirement with "the objection is based on...."
  99 16:35:00 <clown> But, there are others who insist that toolbar need only tab navigation.  No need for different navigation modes.  Hence toolbar isn't composite.
 100 16:35:18 <joanie> so tab gives focus to the child elements?
 101 16:35:24 <joanie> and not the toolbar itself?
 102 16:35:30 <clown> yes.
 103 16:35:34 <joanie> meh
 104 16:35:47 * clown clown may have convert in joanie.
 105 16:36:14 <joanie> as we see more and more web apps, putting everything in the Tab order is going to hurt
 106 16:36:24 <clown> exaclty.
 107 16:36:29 <clown> or exaclty
 108 16:36:33 <joanie> so the objector is wrong
 109 16:36:34 <clown> gah!!!
 110 16:36:39 <joanie> kick him or her off the island
 111 16:36:40 <clown> exactly
 112 16:36:46 <joanie> he/she is the weakest link.
 113 16:36:47 <joanie> goodbye
 114 16:37:01 <clown> he is James Craig.  And I doubt he is alone.
 115 16:37:09 <joanie> heh and oops
 116 16:37:21 <joanie> but I still think that everything in the tab order is a really bad idea
 117 16:37:49 <clown> so did the DHTML Style Guide group (long disbanded, but their work was folded into the ARIA best practices guide).
 118 16:38:19 <clown> They overall said that TAB is for big "between" navigation, and arrows are smaller within navigation.
 119 16:38:53 <joanie> so the ARIA best practices guide agrees with us or with James?
 120 16:39:11 <clown> the APG "agrees" with us.
 121 16:39:19 <joanie> cool
 122 16:39:55 <joanie> so how convinced is James that he is correct? And how does the final decision get made?
 123 16:39:58 <clown> the funny about "best practices" is that they are non-normative.  There are no MUST, SHOULD, MUST NOT, MAY, etc. which is offiical standards language.
 124 16:40:21 <clown> best practices are more like recommendations or heuristics.
 125 16:40:30 <joanie> right
 126 16:40:35 * API wondering if part of the last clown-joanie dialogue could be summarized with pretty #infos
 127 16:40:51 * joanie says it's clown's turn
 128 16:41:00 <clown> "we've tried it this way, and it seems to work, but  you don't have to follow that if you have a better way" = a best practice.
 129 16:41:11 * clown gathres his thoughts.
 130 16:42:14 <clown> #info some feel that making a toolbar navigable with only TAB keystrokes is a pain point for a keyboard only users
 131 16:43:17 <clown> #info others feel that requiring authors to have a dual navigation system (TAB to get to the toolbar, arrows to navigate within) is onerous for every toolbar scenario.
 132 16:44:13 <clown> #info DHTML Style Guide recommended that dual nav system for toolbars, and other widgets.  Their recommendation was folded into the ARIA best practices guide.
 133 16:45:00 <clown> I'm inclined to say with an info that the gnome a11y's position is to agree with the dual nav system, but that might be overstating it.
 134 16:45:01 <clown> advice?
 135 16:45:30 <API> Im ok with that info
 136 16:45:31 <joanie> Well, I for one think dual nav (toolbar via tab, toolbar children via arrows) makes sense
 137 16:45:33 <joanie> we can vote
 138 16:45:44 <joanie> API mgorse jjmarin1?
 139 16:46:07 <API> I agree with joanie/clown/style guide
 140 16:46:19 <jjmarin1> I think that the combination of tab and arrows keys is ok
 141 16:46:54 <clown> #info the consensus among the gnome a11y developers present at this meeting is that the dual nav systme is appropriate for toolbars.
 142 16:47:03 <clown> s/systme/system
 143 16:47:19 <clown> done — anything else to info from that dialog?
 144 16:47:34 <mgorse> Yeah, makes sense to me
 145 16:47:45 <joanie> to info? No.
 146 16:47:50 <joanie> but I have a question
 147 16:47:59 <clown> so. .. how do GTK toolbars work in this regard?
 148 16:48:02 <joanie> which is probably a deep dive so maybe it belongs in #a11y after
 149 16:48:06 <clown> anyone know?
 150 16:48:18 <joanie> there's shortcuts to move focus to toolbars
 151 16:48:19 <API> clown, sorry don't remember now
 152 16:48:28 <joanie> and then different shortcuts to move amongst their children
 153 16:48:46 <joanie> ditto for LibreOffice
 154 16:48:49 <clown> joanie, the APG also recommends a "warp" keystroke to move focus to the first toolbar if there are multiples.
 155 16:49:02 <joanie> warp or wrap?
 156 16:49:08 <clown> warp
 157 16:49:12 <joanie> huh
 158 16:49:35 <joanie> so if this is a deep dive tell me and let's not have it during the meeting
 159 16:49:35 <joanie> but
 160 16:49:43 <clown> meaning, wherever you are, if you want to get to the toolbar quickly, hit <some keystroke here> and you are on the first tool of the first toolbar.
 161 16:49:52 <joanie> ARIA doesn't control keyboard nav.... right?
 162 16:49:56 <clown> nope.
 163 16:50:02 <joanie> i.e. ARIA is something ATs should expose
 164 16:50:04 <joanie> roles, etc.
 165 16:50:24 <joanie> but at least in the case of Orca which relies upon native caret nav (when doing so is possible)
 166 16:50:26 <clown> ARIA roles imply keyborad nav models, but do not require them.
 167 16:50:36 <joanie> we present where you land
 168 16:50:54 <joanie> so really, a web app toolbar should control the nav itself
 169 16:51:07 <clown> thus if the role is "MENUBAR", then the implication is  left-right arrows to move across the menu bar.
 170 16:51:07 <joanie> rather than have a statement over what an AT might wanna do
 171 16:51:13 <joanie> right
 172 16:51:19 <joanie> but who implements that?
 173 16:51:32 <joanie> i.e. causes that interaction to occur
 174 16:51:41 <clown> joanie, dojo widgets, and jQuery widgets implement keyboard nav models.
 175 16:51:56 <joanie> ok, so the widgets are indeed doing that
 176 16:51:57 <joanie> (right?)
 177 16:52:03 <joanie> and the ATs just have to respond
 178 16:52:07 <clown> dojo and jQuery are javascript toolkits.
 179 16:52:13 * joanie nods
 180 16:52:42 <clown> the APG also recommends that ATs, when landing on an ARIA widget, give keyboard control to the webapp.
 181 16:52:55 <clown> requires the AT to trust that the author has done the right thing...
 182 16:53:25 <joanie> gotcha
 183 16:53:50 * API notices that we have just 5 minutes to finish the meeting
 184 16:53:53 <joanie> okay, I have no more questions
 185 16:54:04 <API> should we come to a conclusion in order to move?
 186 16:54:09 <joanie> move
 187 16:54:12 <API> ok
 188 16:54:15 <API> #topic Marketing
 189 16:54:16 <clown> yes, API this is turning into a W3C update meeting :-)
 190 16:54:19 <API> jjmarin1, ?
 191 16:54:28 <jjmarin1> #info The outdated 'GNOME Desktop Accessibility Guide' link is now assigned to the updated 'Universal access' section from the gnome help (#688491). http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/stable/
 192 16:55:39 <jjmarin1> #info This means that we can consider the 'Universal access' section from gnome help as the official manual for our users. http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
 193 16:55:51 <jjmarin1> #info Juanjo only was able to make a small change in this document by now, but his intention is help on keeping the a11y pages updated.
 194 16:56:02 <jjmarin1> questions ?
 195 16:56:24 <clown> this may be nit-picking...
 196 16:56:38 <clown> but, this says how to go to high contrast:
 197 16:56:39 <clown> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y-contrast.html.en
 198 16:56:55 <clown> Has high contrast been moved out of zoom options?
 199 16:57:46 <jjmarin1> no, this is about the high contrast themes
 200 16:57:51 <clown> I remember that mclassen wanted to do that — make brightness and contrast a screen preference rather than a magnifier preference.
 201 16:58:03 <clown> oh, jjmarin1.  Never mind.
 202 16:59:08 <API> ok, so any other question, comment, thought?
 203 17:01:46 <API> no comment
 204 17:01:46 * joanie hums
 205 17:01:52 * clown whistles
 206 17:02:06 <API> moving
 207 17:02:06 <API> #topic Reminder: Q3's (maybe?)
 208 17:02:06 <API> #info this is not only the reminder
 209 17:02:06 * joanie tosses a nerf ball to clown
 210 17:02:07 <API> #info is just mentioning that recently
 211 17:02:09 <API> #info it was suggested that it would be good to change the current procedure
 212 17:02:13 <API> #info it seems that doing the quarterly reports were not really popular
 213 17:02:15 * clown juggles
 214 17:02:21 <API> #info we were some of the "good kids" in spite of being almost always over deadline
 215 17:02:23 <API> #info still in process of getting proposals
 216 17:02:25 <API> (done)
 217 17:02:29 <API> s/proposals/proposals of the new procedure
 218 17:02:52 <joanie> yeah, jjmarin1 has the marketing team concluded if these reports are happening or not?
 219 17:02:52 <clown> proposals in terms of a better way to do things>?
 220 17:03:27 * joanie snatches the balls from clown and tries to juggle
 221 17:03:28 <jjmarin1> joanie: no, there is any conclusion from the marketing team. Is sth I want to talk
 222 17:03:51 * clown watches in bemusement
 223 17:04:25 <joanie> okay, so in the meantime....
 224 17:04:27 <joanie> moving on?
 225 17:04:31 <jjmarin1> jjmarin1: I think the problem with the Q report is that they are feel like sth not useful to do. We must give the Q a use to make them valuable
 226 17:04:35 <API> clown, yeas, proposals in terms of a better way to do things
 227 17:04:39 <API> or at least more popular
 228 17:04:52 <clown> thanks API
 229 17:06:36 <API> taking into account that nobody is proposing anything
 230 17:06:46 <API> just agreeing that current
 231 17:06:53 <API> Qx are not really popular lets
 232 17:06:55 <API> move
 233 17:07:05 <API> #topic misc time
 234 17:07:29 * jjmarin1 wants to note that gnome shell doesn't use the tab/arrow keys model in the dash, it uses the arrows-or-tab/menu key. The problem of the menu key is that not widely avaliable in all the keyboards
 235 17:07:30 <API> #info I fullfilled my AI of pinging design team about a11y shortcuts
 236 17:07:51 <joanie> yay, thanks API
 237 17:07:56 <API> jjmarin1, but that was suggested by allan
 238 17:08:16 <clown> pretty infos please?
 239 17:08:23 <clown> ;-)
 240 17:08:31 <API> because some people didnt like too much the contrl+alt+tab switcher
 241 17:08:42 <API> #info jjmarin1 wants to note that gnome shell doesn't use the tab/arrow keys model in the dash, it uses the arrows-or-tab/menu key. The problem of the menu key is that not widely avaliable in all the keyboards
 242 17:09:15 <API> #info API points that it was proposed as as a replacement to the contrl+alt+tab switcher
 243 17:09:33 <API> #info use the tab to move around the main container of the shell, and the arrows inside
 244 17:10:11 <API> #info not sure if this is being developed or not, and in any case API proposed to keep the ctrl+alt+tab switcher there
 245 17:10:35 <API> #info API also pinged Peter Korn about the JAW thing, waiting response
 246 17:11:00 <API> #notainfo it seems that dwafs in spanish doesn't says aibo but aihoo
 247 17:11:02 <API> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ms9dgxuSqWE#t=250s
 248 17:11:05 <API> (done)
 249 17:11:43 <joanie> Proof the Maya were right: API provides a misc item for misc time
 250 17:12:02 <clown> any news from the FoG board about the grants?
 251 17:12:09 * API notices that suddenly office get invaded by Mario offspring
 252 17:12:17 <clown> cool
 253 17:12:20 <API> so, more misc items?
 254 17:12:28 <API> ah clown sorry
 255 17:12:31 <API> missed your questions
 256 17:12:34 <clown> no problemo
 257 17:12:46 <API> well, probably joanie can answer that
 258 17:13:14 <joanie> #info Bastien and Karen are drafting a document for David Bolter's consideration
 259 17:13:29 <joanie> #info because some of the money is the original Mozilla donation to GNOME
 260 17:13:47 <joanie> #info Joanie believes that draft will go to David at the end of the week
 261 17:14:05 <joanie> #info and pending approval, the request for proposals written
 262 17:14:26 <joanie> #info Joanie has had to recuse herself because of conflicts of interest
 263 17:14:34 <joanie> (done)
 264 17:14:45 <API> ok, so more questions
 265 17:14:46 <API> comments?
 266 17:14:51 <clown> what means "the request for proposals written"?
 267 17:15:16 <clown> does that mean another round of proposal submissions?
 268 17:15:17 <joanie> it means that the GNOME Board is going to put out an RFP soliciting bids
 269 17:15:20 <joanie> yup
 270 17:15:22 <joanie> well
 271 17:15:23 <joanie> not from us
 272 17:15:32 <joanie> we are in holding mode
 273 17:16:07 <clown> i see.
 274 17:17:36 * clown just got an email from the university saying they are closing down at noon tomorrow.
 275 17:17:52 <joanie> for holidays or storm?
 276 17:17:57 <clown> for holidays.
 277 17:18:20 <clown> although, there is some bad weather coming...
 278 17:18:30 <clown> out of Colorado.
 279 17:18:38 * joanie nods
 280 17:19:03 <joanie> anyhoo.... 18 minutes past end of meeting and I have some hacking I want to finish
 281 17:19:06 <joanie> more refactoring and such
 282 17:19:10 <clown> Merry Christmas to all, and a Happy New Year
 283 17:19:36 <clown> I won't be here next week, if there is a meeting.
 284 17:19:47 <joanie> Happy holidays to you as well
 285 17:19:51 <API> Merry Christmas to all you
 286 17:19:53 * joanie looks at calendar
 287 17:20:01 <API> and holidays and a lot of food and stuff
 288 17:20:02 <heidi> Happy holidays!
 289 17:20:04 * joanie looks at API
 290 17:20:09 <joanie> no meeting next week?
 291 17:20:16 <joanie> you are taking that week off, right?
 292 17:20:17 <jjmarin1> Feliz Navidad y Feliz año nuevo !
 293 17:20:33 <API> well, I didn't paln to take that day off
 294 17:20:41 <API> so I can tentatively be here
 295 17:20:43 <joanie> cool. me neither
 296 17:20:45 <clown> Frohe Weisnachtsten!
 297 17:20:45 <joanie> ok
 298 17:20:46 <API> and if nobody appears
 299 17:20:51 <API> just cancel in real time
 300 17:20:52 <API> sooo
 301 17:20:55 <API> 20 minutes over time
 302 17:20:55 <clown> Joyeux Noel
 303 17:20:56 <joanie> ooooooooooos
 304 17:21:00 <API> any reason to not close the meeting?
 305 17:21:06 <joanie> bad luck?
 306 17:21:15 <joanie> doomsday?
 307 17:21:34 <API> dooms day is tomorrow
 308 17:21:44 <API> next week we will have the meeting in hell
 309 17:21:46 <joanie> and I have always wanted to die in a meeting
 310 17:21:46 <API> so
 311 17:21:50 <API> closing meeting
 312 17:21:52 <API> #endmeeting