16:07:41 <API> #startmeeting
16:07:41 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Dec 20 16:07:41 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:07:41 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:07:58 <API> #topic Python 3 (Are we there yet?)
16:08:23 <API> so the question is if accerciser is a happy python3 program now
16:08:28 <API> who has the answer?
16:08:37 <clown> not me.
16:08:39 * joanie hangs her head in shame
16:08:42 <joanie> and builds it
16:08:43 <joanie> now
16:08:58 <clown> where's javier?
16:09:19 <joanie> in the meantime, how's the mag example?
16:09:36 <joanie> as in theory Accerciser is converted
16:10:29 <clown> I have not found any time for the mag example.
16:10:53 <clown> every time I think I have a  few cycles, something else with higher priority comes up.
16:11:27 <jjmarin1> gnome-shell crashed :-/
16:11:34 <joanie> accerciser runs
16:11:42 <clown> last week, I said I might get it done buy end of Jan.  I intend to stick to that schedule.
16:11:43 <joanie> though looks like I need ipython for python 3.3
16:11:56 <clown> gnome-shell crashed because … ?
16:12:13 <joanie> #info Accerciser is not fully working for Joanie in Python 3.3
16:12:14 * clown always worried that it's gs-mag...
16:12:35 <joanie> #info Accerciser's Interface viewer is not showing states (at least)
16:12:43 <jjmarin1> clown: sorry, I just reconnect because the crash. I didn't you were talking
16:13:14 <clown> jjmarin1:  ah, I see.  you disconnected.  Odd, I didn't notice.  (Sorry).
16:13:18 <joanie> #action Joanie will triage the python 3.3 failures in Accerciser and submit patches so that we are fully working.
16:13:50 <joanie> #info The Magnification example is not yet python 3 compatible either
16:13:56 <joanie> #info Conclusion: We are not there yet.
16:13:58 <joanie> done
16:14:07 <clown> thanks joanie
16:14:34 <API> ok, so any other questions here?
16:15:41 <API> seems that no
16:15:43 <API> so moving
16:15:55 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
16:16:19 <API> #info this week is GNOME 3.7.3 week
16:16:44 <API> not sure if it is worth to list how many new releases of
16:16:49 <API> a11y stuff we did
16:16:57 <API> but just in case: caribou, atk, AFAIK orca
16:17:07 <API> so, independently of new releases
16:17:08 <joanie> accerciser
16:17:34 <mgorse> AT-SPI
16:17:34 <API> someone wants to share significant updates towards 3.8?
16:17:55 <joanie> I wonder if it's worth talking about things like new states, etc.?
16:18:11 <joanie> i.e. tackling some of the ATK/AT-SPI2 hackfest items
16:18:28 <joanie> which means AT-SPI2 changes, pyatspi changes, orca changes
16:18:33 <joanie> potentially Gtk+ changes
16:19:15 <joanie> or not
16:19:16 <joanie> ;)
16:19:42 <API> joanie, yeah, please add some pretty #infos about that
16:19:50 <joanie> heh
16:20:00 <joanie> well, I dunno if we have a conclusion yet
16:20:01 <joanie> but ok
16:20:34 <joanie> #info We have a number of changes which have been on the TODO list since the ATK/AT-SPI2 hackfest in May 2011.
16:20:50 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks it is high time we start addressing those items.
16:21:08 <joanie> #info What we do w.r.t. API changes and possible breaks still needs to be discussed.
16:21:29 <joanie> #info But changes to ATK will then require changes in AT-SPI2 and pyatspi
16:21:39 <joanie> #info And then in the ATs like Orca and Accerciser
16:21:53 <joanie> #info And then we'll request toolkits implement those things
16:22:22 <joanie> #info Thus Joanie feels that if we indeed wish to tackle these things for the GNOME 3.8 release, we need to start the ATK stuff now.
16:22:26 <joanie> (pretty enough?)
16:22:35 <clown> gorgeous!
16:22:44 * joanie bows
16:23:14 <joanie> on a different note:
16:23:38 <joanie> #info Joanie forgot to research how far back the Glib equivalent functions for GObject functions go
16:23:53 <joanie> mgorse: this is why I haven't committed that patch to pyatspi yet
16:24:16 <joanie> the methods exist in ubuntu 11.04 I think
16:24:41 <joanie> anyhoo, someone stop me before I type again
16:25:56 * API hearing the crickets
16:26:11 <API> well, it seems that it was a slow week, probably due christmas coming
16:26:23 <API> so unless someone complains, I will move to next point?
16:26:30 <joanie> might as well
16:26:32 <clown> next couple of weeks are going to be even slower, methinks.
16:26:33 <API> s/"?"/" "
16:26:35 <mgorse> pygobject 2.9.01 was released in AUgust '11
16:26:44 <mgorse> so I guess we don't need to update anything. I should coment on the bug
16:26:53 <joanie> mgorse: thanks!
16:28:01 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:28:03 <API> clown, ?
16:28:11 <clown> a couple of things.
16:28:53 <clown> #info The editor's draft of the Independent UI events is almost ready for the next step.
16:29:05 <clown> #info that next step is "working draft" status.
16:29:37 <clown> #info any who are interested in tracking progress, the editor's draft is here:  http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/tip/src/indie-ui-events.html
16:30:27 <clown> #info also, a question has come up about the place of the aria role "toolbar" within the aria  taxonomy.
16:30:40 <clown> #info it has been suggested that toolbars are "composite widgets".
16:30:56 <clown> #info there has been one strong objecttion to this.
16:31:06 * API just skimming, feeling that he lack a lot of background
16:31:27 <joanie> is a "composite widget" a container of other widgets?
16:31:42 <clown> #info the objectioin is based on this other aria requirement:  Authors SHOULD ensure that a composite widget exist as a single navigation stop within the larger navigation system of the web page. Once the composite widget has focus, authorsSHOULD provide a separate navigation mechanism for users to navigate to elements that are descendants or owned children of the composite element.
16:32:00 <clown> joanie, yes.
16:32:18 <joanie> well, a toolbar is keyboard navigable if done correctly
16:32:33 <clown> and, I'll point out it seems intuitively obvious that a toolbar is a composite widget, but in ARIA 1.0, it isn't.
16:32:34 <joanie> and the toolbar then provides its own navigation amongst child objects
16:33:02 <joanie> but I think that the quoted Aria requirement is consistent with what we expect of toolbars
16:33:05 <clown> IMHO, if one has multiple toolbars, one wants TAB for moving between the toolbar, and arrows for moving within.
16:33:05 <joanie> is it not??
16:34:12 <clown> the aria requirement I cited fits with the example I just gave of multiple toolbars (which means I"m leaning towards the toolbar = composite widget).
16:34:26 <joanie> :)
16:34:42 <joanie> but you prefaced your requirement with "the objection is based on...."
16:35:00 <clown> But, there are others who insist that toolbar need only tab navigation.  No need for different navigation modes.  Hence toolbar isn't composite.
16:35:18 <joanie> so tab gives focus to the child elements?
16:35:24 <joanie> and not the toolbar itself?
16:35:30 <clown> yes.
16:35:34 <joanie> meh
16:35:47 * clown clown may have convert in joanie.
16:36:14 <joanie> as we see more and more web apps, putting everything in the Tab order is going to hurt
16:36:24 <clown> exaclty.
16:36:29 <clown> or exaclty
16:36:33 <joanie> so the objector is wrong
16:36:34 <clown> gah!!!
16:36:39 <joanie> kick him or her off the island
16:36:40 <clown> exactly
16:36:46 <joanie> he/she is the weakest link.
16:36:47 <joanie> goodbye
16:37:01 <clown> he is James Craig.  And I doubt he is alone.
16:37:09 <joanie> heh and oops
16:37:21 <joanie> but I still think that everything in the tab order is a really bad idea
16:37:49 <clown> so did the DHTML Style Guide group (long disbanded, but their work was folded into the ARIA best practices guide).
16:38:19 <clown> They overall said that TAB is for big "between" navigation, and arrows are smaller within navigation.
16:38:53 <joanie> so the ARIA best practices guide agrees with us or with James?
16:39:11 <clown> the APG "agrees" with us.
16:39:19 <joanie> cool
16:39:55 <joanie> so how convinced is James that he is correct? And how does the final decision get made?
16:39:58 <clown> the funny about "best practices" is that they are non-normative.  There are no MUST, SHOULD, MUST NOT, MAY, etc. which is offiical standards language.
16:40:21 <clown> best practices are more like recommendations or heuristics.
16:40:30 <joanie> right
16:40:35 * API wondering if part of the last clown-joanie dialogue could be summarized with pretty #infos
16:40:51 * joanie says it's clown's turn
16:41:00 <clown> "we've tried it this way, and it seems to work, but  you don't have to follow that if you have a better way" = a best practice.
16:41:11 * clown gathres his thoughts.
16:42:14 <clown> #info some feel that making a toolbar navigable with only TAB keystrokes is a pain point for a keyboard only users
16:43:17 <clown> #info others feel that requiring authors to have a dual navigation system (TAB to get to the toolbar, arrows to navigate within) is onerous for every toolbar scenario.
16:44:13 <clown> #info DHTML Style Guide recommended that dual nav system for toolbars, and other widgets.  Their recommendation was folded into the ARIA best practices guide.
16:45:00 <clown> I'm inclined to say with an info that the gnome a11y's position is to agree with the dual nav system, but that might be overstating it.
16:45:01 <clown> advice?
16:45:30 <API> Im ok with that info
16:45:31 <joanie> Well, I for one think dual nav (toolbar via tab, toolbar children via arrows) makes sense
16:45:33 <joanie> we can vote
16:45:44 <joanie> API mgorse jjmarin1?
16:46:07 <API> I agree with joanie/clown/style guide
16:46:19 <jjmarin1> I think that the combination of tab and arrows keys is ok
16:46:54 <clown> #info the consensus among the gnome a11y developers present at this meeting is that the dual nav systme is appropriate for toolbars.
16:47:03 <clown> s/systme/system
16:47:19 <clown> done — anything else to info from that dialog?
16:47:34 <mgorse> Yeah, makes sense to me
16:47:45 <joanie> to info? No.
16:47:50 <joanie> but I have a question
16:47:59 <clown> so. .. how do GTK toolbars work in this regard?
16:48:02 <joanie> which is probably a deep dive so maybe it belongs in #a11y after
16:48:06 <clown> anyone know?
16:48:18 <joanie> there's shortcuts to move focus to toolbars
16:48:19 <API> clown, sorry don't remember now
16:48:28 <joanie> and then different shortcuts to move amongst their children
16:48:46 <joanie> ditto for LibreOffice
16:48:49 <clown> joanie, the APG also recommends a "warp" keystroke to move focus to the first toolbar if there are multiples.
16:49:02 <joanie> warp or wrap?
16:49:08 <clown> warp
16:49:12 <joanie> huh
16:49:35 <joanie> so if this is a deep dive tell me and let's not have it during the meeting
16:49:35 <joanie> but
16:49:43 <clown> meaning, wherever you are, if you want to get to the toolbar quickly, hit <some keystroke here> and you are on the first tool of the first toolbar.
16:49:52 <joanie> ARIA doesn't control keyboard nav.... right?
16:49:56 <clown> nope.
16:50:02 <joanie> i.e. ARIA is something ATs should expose
16:50:04 <joanie> roles, etc.
16:50:24 <joanie> but at least in the case of Orca which relies upon native caret nav (when doing so is possible)
16:50:26 <clown> ARIA roles imply keyborad nav models, but do not require them.
16:50:36 <joanie> we present where you land
16:50:54 <joanie> so really, a web app toolbar should control the nav itself
16:51:07 <clown> thus if the role is "MENUBAR", then the implication is  left-right arrows to move across the menu bar.
16:51:07 <joanie> rather than have a statement over what an AT might wanna do
16:51:13 <joanie> right
16:51:19 <joanie> but who implements that?
16:51:32 <joanie> i.e. causes that interaction to occur
16:51:41 <clown> joanie, dojo widgets, and jQuery widgets implement keyboard nav models.
16:51:56 <joanie> ok, so the widgets are indeed doing that
16:51:57 <joanie> (right?)
16:52:03 <joanie> and the ATs just have to respond
16:52:07 <clown> dojo and jQuery are javascript toolkits.
16:52:13 * joanie nods
16:52:42 <clown> the APG also recommends that ATs, when landing on an ARIA widget, give keyboard control to the webapp.
16:52:55 <clown> requires the AT to trust that the author has done the right thing...
16:53:25 <joanie> gotcha
16:53:50 * API notices that we have just 5 minutes to finish the meeting
16:53:53 <joanie> okay, I have no more questions
16:54:04 <API> should we come to a conclusion in order to move?
16:54:09 <joanie> move
16:54:12 <API> ok
16:54:15 <API> #topic Marketing
16:54:16 <clown> yes, API this is turning into a W3C update meeting :-)
16:54:19 <API> jjmarin1, ?
16:54:28 <jjmarin1> #info The outdated 'GNOME Desktop Accessibility Guide' link is now assigned to the updated 'Universal access' section from the gnome help (#688491). http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/stable/
16:55:39 <jjmarin1> #info This means that we can consider the 'Universal access' section from gnome help as the official manual for our users. http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
16:55:51 <jjmarin1> #info Juanjo only was able to make a small change in this document by now, but his intention is help on keeping the a11y pages updated.
16:56:02 <jjmarin1> questions ?
16:56:24 <clown> this may be nit-picking...
16:56:38 <clown> but, this says how to go to high contrast:
16:56:39 <clown> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y-contrast.html.en
16:56:55 <clown> Has high contrast been moved out of zoom options?
16:57:46 <jjmarin1> no, this is about the high contrast themes
16:57:51 <clown> I remember that mclassen wanted to do that — make brightness and contrast a screen preference rather than a magnifier preference.
16:58:03 <clown> oh, jjmarin1.  Never mind.
16:59:08 <API> ok, so any other question, comment, thought?
17:01:46 <API> no comment
17:01:46 * joanie hums
17:01:52 * clown whistles
17:02:06 <API> moving
17:02:06 <API> #topic Reminder: Q3's (maybe?)
17:02:06 <API> #info this is not only the reminder
17:02:06 * joanie tosses a nerf ball to clown
17:02:07 <API> #info is just mentioning that recently
17:02:09 <API> #info it was suggested that it would be good to change the current procedure
17:02:13 <API> #info it seems that doing the quarterly reports were not really popular
17:02:15 * clown juggles
17:02:21 <API> #info we were some of the "good kids" in spite of being almost always over deadline
17:02:23 <API> #info still in process of getting proposals
17:02:25 <API> (done)
17:02:29 <API> s/proposals/proposals of the new procedure
17:02:52 <joanie> yeah, jjmarin1 has the marketing team concluded if these reports are happening or not?
17:02:52 <clown> proposals in terms of a better way to do things>?
17:03:27 * joanie snatches the balls from clown and tries to juggle
17:03:28 <jjmarin1> joanie: no, there is any conclusion from the marketing team. Is sth I want to talk
17:03:51 * clown watches in bemusement
17:04:25 <joanie> okay, so in the meantime....
17:04:27 <joanie> moving on?
17:04:31 <jjmarin1> jjmarin1: I think the problem with the Q report is that they are feel like sth not useful to do. We must give the Q a use to make them valuable
17:04:35 <API> clown, yeas, proposals in terms of a better way to do things
17:04:39 <API> or at least more popular
17:04:52 <clown> thanks API
17:06:36 <API> taking into account that nobody is proposing anything
17:06:46 <API> just agreeing that current
17:06:53 <API> Qx are not really popular lets
17:06:55 <API> move
17:07:05 <API> #topic misc time
17:07:29 * jjmarin1 wants to note that gnome shell doesn't use the tab/arrow keys model in the dash, it uses the arrows-or-tab/menu key. The problem of the menu key is that not widely avaliable in all the keyboards
17:07:30 <API> #info I fullfilled my AI of pinging design team about a11y shortcuts
17:07:51 <joanie> yay, thanks API
17:07:56 <API> jjmarin1, but that was suggested by allan
17:08:16 <clown> pretty infos please?
17:08:23 <clown> ;-)
17:08:31 <API> because some people didnt like too much the contrl+alt+tab switcher
17:08:42 <API> #info jjmarin1 wants to note that gnome shell doesn't use the tab/arrow keys model in the dash, it uses the arrows-or-tab/menu key. The problem of the menu key is that not widely avaliable in all the keyboards
17:09:15 <API> #info API points that it was proposed as as a replacement to the contrl+alt+tab switcher
17:09:33 <API> #info use the tab to move around the main container of the shell, and the arrows inside
17:10:11 <API> #info not sure if this is being developed or not, and in any case API proposed to keep the ctrl+alt+tab switcher there
17:10:35 <API> #info API also pinged Peter Korn about the JAW thing, waiting response
17:11:00 <API> #notainfo it seems that dwafs in spanish doesn't says aibo but aihoo
17:11:02 <API> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ms9dgxuSqWE#t=250s
17:11:05 <API> (done)
17:11:43 <joanie> Proof the Maya were right: API provides a misc item for misc time
17:12:02 <clown> any news from the FoG board about the grants?
17:12:09 * API notices that suddenly office get invaded by Mario offspring
17:12:17 <clown> cool
17:12:20 <API> so, more misc items?
17:12:28 <API> ah clown sorry
17:12:31 <API> missed your questions
17:12:34 <clown> no problemo
17:12:46 <API> well, probably joanie can answer that
17:13:14 <joanie> #info Bastien and Karen are drafting a document for David Bolter's consideration
17:13:29 <joanie> #info because some of the money is the original Mozilla donation to GNOME
17:13:47 <joanie> #info Joanie believes that draft will go to David at the end of the week
17:14:05 <joanie> #info and pending approval, the request for proposals written
17:14:26 <joanie> #info Joanie has had to recuse herself because of conflicts of interest
17:14:34 <joanie> (done)
17:14:45 <API> ok, so more questions
17:14:46 <API> comments?
17:14:51 <clown> what means "the request for proposals written"?
17:15:16 <clown> does that mean another round of proposal submissions?
17:15:17 <joanie> it means that the GNOME Board is going to put out an RFP soliciting bids
17:15:20 <joanie> yup
17:15:22 <joanie> well
17:15:23 <joanie> not from us
17:15:32 <joanie> we are in holding mode
17:16:07 <clown> i see.
17:17:36 * clown just got an email from the university saying they are closing down at noon tomorrow.
17:17:52 <joanie> for holidays or storm?
17:17:57 <clown> for holidays.
17:18:20 <clown> although, there is some bad weather coming...
17:18:30 <clown> out of Colorado.
17:18:38 * joanie nods
17:19:03 <joanie> anyhoo.... 18 minutes past end of meeting and I have some hacking I want to finish
17:19:06 <joanie> more refactoring and such
17:19:10 <clown> Merry Christmas to all, and a Happy New Year
17:19:36 <clown> I won't be here next week, if there is a meeting.
17:19:47 <joanie> Happy holidays to you as well
17:19:51 <API> Merry Christmas to all you
17:19:53 * joanie looks at calendar
17:20:01 <API> and holidays and a lot of food and stuff
17:20:02 <heidi> Happy holidays!
17:20:04 * joanie looks at API
17:20:09 <joanie> no meeting next week?
17:20:16 <joanie> you are taking that week off, right?
17:20:17 <jjmarin1> Feliz Navidad y Feliz año nuevo !
17:20:33 <API> well, I didn't paln to take that day off
17:20:41 <API> so I can tentatively be here
17:20:43 <joanie> cool. me neither
17:20:45 <clown> Frohe Weisnachtsten!
17:20:45 <joanie> ok
17:20:46 <API> and if nobody appears
17:20:51 <API> just cancel in real time
17:20:52 <API> sooo
17:20:55 <API> 20 minutes over time
17:20:55 <clown> Joyeux Noel
17:20:56 <joanie> ooooooooooos
17:21:00 <API> any reason to not close the meeting?
17:21:06 <joanie> bad luck?
17:21:15 <joanie> doomsday?
17:21:34 <API> dooms day is tomorrow
17:21:44 <API> next week we will have the meeting in hell
17:21:46 <joanie> and I have always wanted to die in a meeting
17:21:46 <API> so
17:21:50 <API> closing meeting
17:21:52 <API> #endmeeting