1 16:07:14 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:07:14 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Dec 13 16:07:14 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:07:14 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:07:32 <API> #topic Python 3
   5 16:07:43 <clown> agenda:  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting_.2813_December.29
   6 16:08:01 <API> #info recently one guy created a bug about the focus-tracking script not being python3
   7 16:08:14 <API> while I look for the bug
   8 16:08:20 <API> I guess that joanie has more info about that
   9 16:08:23 * API looking
  10 16:08:33 <clown> yes, joanei responded appropriately.
  11 16:08:37 <clown> "joanie"
  12 16:08:37 <joanie> #info The reporter only changed a single print statement.
  13 16:08:45 <API> bug 689957
  14 16:08:46 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=689957 normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, examples/magFocusTracker.py does not support python3
  15 16:08:46 <joanie> #info Joanie commented on the bug.
  16 16:09:03 <clown> that print statement was the first thing I fixed, but there are other issues.
  17 16:09:23 <joanie> but if we're being noticed by random people.... What is your target date for Python 3 compatibility?
  18 16:09:33 <clown> #info Joseph has been hacking away at the focus tracker when he has the time.
  19 16:09:53 <clown> #info so far he as fixed two other problems, and is currently working on a third.
  20 16:10:14 <clown> re:  target date:  thinking...
  21 16:10:27 <clown> time is my enemy, and the christmas break is coming up in a week.
  22 16:10:30 <clown> hmm....
  23 16:10:54 <clown> being cautious, I'd say the end of Jan.
  24 16:11:27 <joanie> and one has to deliberately try the example right?
  25 16:11:37 <joanie> i.e. no one is going to complain who uses jhbuild?
  26 16:11:40 <clown> not sure what you mean.
  27 16:12:01 <joanie> I'm wondering who all is going to detect the lack of Python 3 goodness
  28 16:12:23 <clown> anyone who uses the "interim focus tracker", who also uses python 3 to run it.
  29 16:12:40 <clown> i don't see the relevance of jhbuild
  30 16:13:23 <joanie> never mind then
  31 16:14:00 <API> ok,
  32 16:14:01 <API> well
  33 16:14:14 <API> I have just pinged jhernandez at #a11y
  34 16:14:19 <clown> ok, I think … but before dropping that, maybe you know something about jhbuild that I don't.  Can you clarify, joanie?
  35 16:14:36 <API> because of accerciser and python3, and the current .3 deadline (next monday)
  36 16:14:44 * API waiting as clown and joanie are talking
  37 16:14:51 <joanie> the people most likely to be using python 3 with our modules are developers
  38 16:14:54 <joanie> using jhbuild
  39 16:15:03 * joanie is done
  40 16:15:34 <joanie> API some stuff got committed by Javi
  41 16:15:35 * joanie looks
  42 16:15:47 <clown> I think it "builds" under jhbuild.  It's just if you run it, and jhbuild chooses python3, then … no joy.
  43 16:15:59 <joanie> http://git.gnome.org/browse/accerciser/commit/?id=b9bb2f48eebbf9f21ca633b6ecd6a58d6befe04a
  44 16:16:44 * clown notest that accerciser is more important than the interim focus tracker.
  45 16:16:52 <joanie> so we should test accerciser, but in theory the magnification/tracking example is our only missing piece
  46 16:18:29 <API> ok
  47 16:18:41 <API> so letst try to add a info for that
  48 16:18:56 <API> #info accerciser started the python3 migration
  49 16:19:15 <API> #info jhernandez is not at the meeting, so we are not sure if the port is complete, but the commit seems to suggest that
  50 16:19:20 <API> http://git.gnome.org/browse/accerciser/commit/?id=b9bb2f48eebbf9f21ca633b6ecd6a58d6befe04a
  51 16:19:39 <API> #info would be good if people test and confirm that
  52 16:19:41 <API> done
  53 16:19:44 <API> so
  54 16:19:48 <API> anything else in this point?
  55 16:20:46 * joanie wonders if jhbuild needs updating
  56 16:21:02 <joanie> #action Joanie will be sure jhbuild is modified accordingly for accerciser
  57 16:21:04 <joanie> (done)
  58 16:21:39 <joanie> javi did it
  59 16:21:47 <joanie> moving on?
  60 16:22:18 <API> seems so
  61 16:22:20 <API> so moving
  62 16:22:29 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
  63 16:22:55 <API> nothing from my side, unless we want to comment something about webkitgtk hackfest
  64 16:22:55 <API> so
  65 16:22:56 <API> done
  66 16:23:08 <joanie> #info Joanie removed much of the GUI from Orca
  67 16:23:59 <joanie> (quit dialog, splash screen, main window)
  68 16:24:23 <joanie> preferences dialog still remains, but you have to know the secret keystroke to show it
  69 16:25:14 <joanie> Design team has wanted this for quite some time. And Luke, who before wanted these things and even had a downstream patch to enable the main window....
  70 16:25:18 <joanie> said they needed to go
  71 16:25:24 * joanie shrugs
  72 16:25:47 <clown> so, to quit orca, you (complete guess follows):  you now have to know the keystrokes, or use the a11y menu?
  73 16:26:00 <joanie> or do orca modifier + q
  74 16:26:07 <joanie> but this raises a good point
  75 16:26:23 <joanie> #info GNOME 3 does not have keyboard shortcuts to toggle the screen reader
  76 16:26:37 <clown> orca modifier + q is entirely from the keyboard, right?
  77 16:26:37 <joanie> which means Orca users have to find some way to launch Orca in order to assign them
  78 16:26:44 <joanie> #info which means Orca users have to find some way to launch Orca in order to assign them
  79 16:26:49 <joanie> clown: yes
  80 16:27:10 <joanie> #info We really should have these keybindings bound for the desktop
  81 16:27:18 <clown> yes, at least OS X provides "cmd+f5" built-in to launch VoiceOver.
  82 16:27:24 <joanie> yup
  83 16:27:25 <API> this page:
  84 16:27:26 <API> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/KeyboardShortcuts
  85 16:27:29 <API> was recently updated
  86 16:27:38 <API> but they didn't add any default key bind to orca
  87 16:27:43 <API> as suggested
  88 16:27:50 <API> not sure if I should ping them again
  89 16:27:57 <joanie> API yes please
  90 16:28:04 <API> k thanks
  91 16:28:10 <API> I will use the minutes of this meeting
  92 16:28:30 <API> something like "we were talking about this on last meeting, what do you think"
  93 16:29:13 <API> so more on this gnome-3-8 point?
  94 16:29:29 <joanie> #action Piñeiro will ping the design team about keyboard shortcuts to toggle Orca
  95 16:29:33 <joanie> (done)
  96 16:29:59 <clown> just a note:  the trouble with keyboard shortcuts is they have to be discoverable.
  97 16:30:17 <API> clown, well thats true
  98 16:30:23 <API> I guess that the best option would be
  99 16:30:25 <clown> I can't remember how OS X handled that with respect to VoiceOver, but users find out pretty quick, as I recall.
 100 16:30:30 <API> to suggest "well know keybindings"
 101 16:30:44 <API> hmm
 102 16:30:45 <API> yes true
 103 16:30:54 <API> all people talk about how wonderful is iphone
 104 16:30:59 <API> but the egg-chicken question here
 105 16:31:07 <API> is how they activated voiceover
 106 16:31:07 <clown> I remember:  first time you turn on a brand new Mac, it starts speaking, offering you the ability to use a screen reader , and tells you how to turn it on and off.
 107 16:31:09 <API> the first time
 108 16:31:24 <joanie> and that won't happen in GNOME
 109 16:31:28 <clown> I don't know about iPhone.
 110 16:31:32 <API> well the initial setup thing
 111 16:31:40 <API> is still a wip thing on GNOME
 112 16:31:43 <joanie> I think we should be grateful for having established shortcuts
 113 16:31:49 <joanie> which is more than we have currently
 114 16:31:53 <joanie> and would be an improvement
 115 16:31:58 <clown> true
 116 16:32:45 * clown notes there is nothing on the keyboard shortcuts page for the magnifier.
 117 16:32:55 * joanie nods
 118 16:33:00 <API> clown, my idea was asking about both
 119 16:33:06 <API> AFAIR
 120 16:33:14 <clown> okay API.
 121 16:33:22 <joanie> API is our hero :)
 122 16:33:23 <API> my mail was in summary "please take into account bla and bla"
 123 16:33:28 <API> not just screen reader
 124 16:33:32 <clown> There was discussion years go about the mag on/off keystrokes.
 125 16:33:52 <clown> but it currently is:  go into the control center , and set them up as you desire.
 126 16:33:58 * API it would be also a good moment to mention that if they start to think on gestures, they should have all those in mind
 127 16:34:13 <clown> same with keyboard control of increasing/decreasing magnification.
 128 16:35:11 <clown> yes, I supposed there should be keystrokes for all AT (on screen keyboard, visual alerts, sticky keys, etc.)
 129 16:35:49 <API> so
 130 16:35:56 <API> anythying else on this point?
 131 16:35:56 <API> moving?
 132 16:36:02 <clown> go ahead.
 133 16:36:35 <API> ~topic W3C updates
 134 16:36:36 <API> ups
 135 16:36:38 <API> #topic W3C updates
 136 16:36:43 <API> so, clown?
 137 16:37:06 <clown> I don't have any substantial news from the W3C side.
 138 16:37:15 <clown> We're testing aria,
 139 16:37:41 <clown> I missed yesterday's Indie UI meeting, and need to catch up on its minutes.
 140 16:38:04 <clown> but I did a 'diatribe' in an email about ARIA in response to and email from joanie.
 141 16:38:09 <joanie> on a related note, thanks clown for your detailed response to my ARIA question :)
 142 16:38:26 <joanie> I've got a patch that implements that behavior
 143 16:38:33 <clown> my pleasure.  (It was actually fun putting that down on paper, so to speak).
 144 16:38:51 <joanie> and once the mac bot swallows it, I will ask the apple a11y guy for code review
 145 16:39:02 <clown> BUt, I have yet to look at the bugzilla you cite. I still plan to, and may say something there.
 146 16:39:14 * joanie nods
 147 16:39:27 <joanie> jame craig was asked by the apple guy to weigh in
 148 16:39:33 * clown should in this.
 149 16:39:37 <joanie> and he said what you said, but with less explanation
 150 16:39:42 * clown should info this.
 151 16:39:47 * joanie waits
 152 16:39:53 <clown> james craig is a good guy.
 153 16:40:04 <joanie> but you are a better teacher
 154 16:40:05 <joanie> :)
 155 16:40:25 * clown *blushes*
 156 16:40:29 <clown> :-)
 157 16:40:52 <clown> #info No major news from W3C about ARIA nor IndieUI
 158 16:41:11 <clown> #info Joanie asked for info about how ARIA works in an email to Joseph.
 159 16:41:23 <clown> #info Joseph gave a long-ish explanation in a reply email.
 160 16:41:34 <clown> (done)
 161 16:42:38 <API> ok, so I think that this is all with this point
 162 16:42:48 <API> questions, doubts, moving?
 163 16:44:37 <joanie> moving?
 164 16:44:44 <API> I guess so
 165 16:44:52 <API> 2 minutes withoug answer are enough minutes
 166 16:44:56 <API> so jjmarin is not here
 167 16:45:02 <API> so I will skip marketing
 168 16:45:08 <joanie> well
 169 16:45:18 <joanie> I guess I can misc time it
 170 16:45:24 <joanie> so never mind
 171 16:45:32 <API> do you want marketing topic?
 172 16:45:41 <joanie> up to you
 173 16:45:48 <API> ok
 174 16:45:51 <API> #topic Marketing
 175 16:45:53 <API> joanie?
 176 16:45:55 <joanie> ok
 177 16:46:35 <joanie> #info The foss2serve students might be interested in helping us clean up our wiki content, etc.
 178 16:47:05 <joanie> #info Since Juanjo was going to take this on, I mentioned to Heidi and her colleagues that these students should get in touch with Juanjo.
 179 16:47:21 <heidi> Yup, they will.
 180 16:47:32 <joanie> #info So if you see students in #a11y looking for Juanjo and/or talking about redoing/cleaning up/whatevering our wiki, that's why. :)
 181 16:47:37 <heidi> Students are taking finals now and then are on break, so I don't know how much we'll get out of them.
 182 16:47:45 * joanie nods
 183 16:48:11 <API> ok thanks
 184 16:48:17 <heidi> Current progress at WNE is that they're working on installing MouseTrap on their own machines to use over break.
 185 16:48:17 <joanie> I just want to be sure we know and are on the lookout for students in need of direction
 186 16:48:24 <heidi> Thanks!
 187 16:48:25 <heidi> :-)
 188 16:48:39 <API> ok, so if nothing else here ...
 189 16:49:21 <API> #topic Reminder: Q3's
 190 16:49:24 <API> Reminder!!
 191 16:49:56 <API> and now finally moving to th elast and more popular topic
 192 16:50:01 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
 193 16:50:12 <API> so anything not scheduled to add to the meeting?
 194 16:50:48 <joanie> #info Piñeiro and Joanie were at the WebKitGTK hackfest
 195 16:51:01 <joanie> #info And worked on getting regression tests "unskipped"
 196 16:51:36 <joanie> (done)
 197 16:51:51 <mgorse_> So gtk+ has this fairly new widget, called GtkLevelBar, intended for things like showing the strength of a password or the charge level of a battery. I'm wondering whether we need a new atk role for it, or if, ie, ATK_ROLE_INFO_BAR is appropriate.
 198 16:51:57 <mgorse_> And gettin regression tests unskipped is always good
 199 16:52:16 * joanie forgot about the level bar thing
 200 16:52:23 <joanie> I think that it is not the same as an info bar
 201 16:52:37 <joanie> to me, the info bar refers to a specific type of widget
 202 16:52:51 <mgorse_> I didn't see a role that seemed to match it, but wanted to check in case I hadn't noticed something
 203 16:52:52 <joanie> the one that, for instance, shows up in your browser and asks if you want to save your password
 204 16:52:59 <joanie> we can make new roles
 205 16:53:04 <joanie> that reminds me
 206 16:53:13 <clown> how does Orca (or other ATs) respond to ROLE_INFO_BAR?
 207 16:53:36 <joanie> #info Joanie has created patches to add ATK_STATE_READ_ONLY and ATSPI_STATE_READ_ONLY
 208 16:53:53 <joanie> clown: right now, with the exception of Firefox, I'm not sure it does
 209 16:53:55 <clown> or actually, changes to the value of the info bar?
 210 16:53:56 <joanie> but that's a bug
 211 16:54:14 <joanie> info bars have text (info) and push buttons
 212 16:54:18 <joanie> not values
 213 16:55:06 <joanie> this role/widget mgorse_ is describing sounds more like something like a progress bar or slider (but different)
 214 16:55:13 <clown> oh.  intutitivelys "strength" of a password would be a value
 215 16:55:15 <joanie> i.e. needs AtkValue implemented, etc.
 216 16:55:36 <API> #info Piñeiro removed the management of the state ATK_STATE_SELECTABLE from AtkObject, each custom implementation should take care of their states. Will be available on next ATK release. Gtk regressions in relation with that state are possible
 217 16:55:48 <clown> it's like a range:  0= poor, 10=excellent, and various intermediate values.
 218 16:55:56 <mgorse_> yeah
 219 16:55:58 * joanie nods
 220 16:56:10 <API> #info Piñeiro did that during webkitgtk hackfest, in order to solve a bug where that state was wrongly set
 221 16:56:57 <clown> API, what is "that"?  and, which "state"?
 222 16:57:18 <API> clown, see my previous info
 223 16:57:25 * clown looks up...
 224 16:57:33 <API> that/role==ATK_STATE_SELECTABLE
 225 16:58:51 <joanie> misc time is serious today
 226 16:58:52 <clown> ok, but I don't see the connection to the info bar
 227 16:59:24 <API> clown, no connection
 228 16:59:25 <mgorse_> The connection, I think, is that both are misc
 229 16:59:27 <clown> or, what has selectable to do with info bars and their (current) lack of value.
 230 16:59:27 <joanie> I think it's a general "we're adding stuff to ATK" (or removing it)
 231 16:59:28 <clown> ?
 232 16:59:33 * joanie grins at mgorse_
 233 16:59:39 <API> we were talking about several stuff added at the hackfest
 234 16:59:43 <clown> .mgorse_ touche!
 235 16:59:51 <API> I just arrived too late
 236 16:59:58 <API> or in the middle of discussion
 237 17:00:01 <mgorse_> Huh; I'm signed in twice. Weird
 238 17:00:02 <joanie> fashionably late
 239 17:00:14 <joanie> we have clowns and clones
 240 17:01:00 <joanie> anyhoo, other misc stuff?
 241 17:01:00 <clown> payasos y copias
 242 17:01:27 <clown> okay, I get it now with respect to the infos above.  thanks.
 243 17:02:52 <API> so if nobody else wants to add something ....
 244 17:02:56 <API> closing the meeting?
 245 17:03:03 <clown> no objection here.
 246 17:03:11 <joanie> I prefer multiplication
 247 17:03:31 <clown> makes me think of viruses.
 248 17:03:51 <API> #endmeeting