16:06:44 <API> #startmeeting
16:06:44 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Nov 22 16:06:44 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:44 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:07:07 <API> #topic Java ATK Wrapper
16:07:18 <API> fwiw, I read last meeting minutes
16:07:36 <API> anyway probably some of the ones that were there could add some kind of introductory #info
16:07:38 <API> joanie?
16:07:55 <joanie> ok
16:08:05 * clown reads last week's minutes;  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20121115
16:08:20 <joanie> #info java-atk-wrapper was reported to be broken build-wize by several Orca users.
16:08:39 <joanie> #info It would appear that Oracle has abandoned it.
16:09:30 <joanie> #info A possible Outreach Program for Woman candidate came by last week looking for tasks and initial contributions. I suggested getting this build problem solved would be a nice initial contribution.
16:09:43 <clown> cool
16:09:56 <joanie> #info The candidate seemed enthusiastic and agreed -- and has not been seen nor heard from again.
16:10:28 <jjmarin> please, come back again :-)
16:10:38 <joanie> #info Joanie feels that although Java is not our personal platform (or concern?) in GNOME, we need to make using Java apps within GNOME Accessible.
16:10:50 <joanie> good enough?
16:11:20 <API> yes
16:11:26 <clown> there was a suggestion last week about contacting Oracle through the java-access list.
16:11:38 <API> on last meeting some options ...
16:11:49 <API> yes like that onepointed by clown
16:12:03 <API> in general a mail CCing someone
16:12:14 <API> where I guess that someone==Peter Korn
16:12:34 <API> asking if it is true that Oracle doesn't work on jaw anymore
16:12:52 <API> so, my opinion is that first step should be that
16:13:02 <API> and then react to the answer
16:13:04 * joanie nods
16:13:13 <API> as this is a gnome accessibility meeting
16:13:22 <API> a mail to gnome-accessibility
16:13:26 <API> ccing peter korn
16:13:31 <API> anyone else?
16:13:43 <API> should we also cc java-access lists or any oracle list?
16:13:57 <joanie> i think Peter would know which list(s) to forward the issue
16:14:09 <joanie> I think it needs to be acknowledged in the community which reported it
16:14:17 <joanie> i.e. Orca users
16:15:17 <joanie> and responses when multiple lists are CCed tend to splinter and fail
16:15:23 <joanie> due to people not being subscribed
16:16:28 <joanie> (that's all I wanted to say)
16:16:32 <API> ok, so .... everybody sees that as a good idea?
16:16:46 * joanie nods
16:16:53 <clown> sue
16:16:57 <clown> "sure"
16:17:05 <jjmarin> +1
16:17:16 <mgorse> +1
16:17:57 <API> #action API will send a mail to gnome-accessibility about the jaw issue, ccing peter korn
16:18:10 <API> ok, so anything else for this topic?
16:18:20 <clown> if it matters: i'm looking at the archives of the java-access list.  There's not a lot of traffic, and most of it is "how do I make java accessible on windows?"
16:18:27 <clown> http://kenai.com/projects/java-mail-lists/lists/java-access/archive
16:19:26 * joanie mutters her obligatory "I miss Sun"
16:19:47 <API> clown, ok, but as joanie said, probably korn will know better if it is worth to send a mail to those lists or not
16:20:07 <clown> Right-o, API
16:20:10 <joanie> :)
16:20:23 <API> ok, I will assume that thats is a ok for moving
16:20:32 <API> #topic Python 3
16:20:42 * joanie looks at clown
16:20:46 <joanie> how's it going?
16:20:50 <clown> not well.
16:20:55 <joanie> :(
16:21:15 <clown> I'm beginning to think the interim focus tracker is great way to test all the things one needs to make sure python3 is working
16:21:21 <clown> some infos...
16:21:26 * joanie laughs
16:21:34 <joanie> btw1000: Python 3.3
16:22:00 <clown> #info With joanie's help, Joseph starting looking into whether the interm focus tracker would run under python3.
16:22:36 <clown> #info  joanie figured out how to switch from "import dbus" (python2) to "from gi.repository import Gio" (python3).
16:23:08 <clown> #info from there Joseph ran into numerous problems running that on a Fedora17 system.
16:23:34 <clown> #info after trying to update as many relevant packages as possible, he abandoned F17 for F18.
16:23:43 <joanie> clown: did getting the proxy and magnifier not work?
16:24:05 <clown> not that far yet.  more infos coming.
16:24:10 <joanie> k
16:24:46 <clown> #info discovered a number of packages missing in  F18 as well, but "finally" got enough such that the "from gi.repository import Gio" worked.
16:24:59 <joanie> (oh man)
16:25:00 <clown> #info the next failure was the "import pyastpi" line.
16:25:17 <clown> #info the error message is "ImportError: No module named 'pyatspi'"
16:25:17 <joanie> need to build it for python 3
16:25:23 <clown> aha
16:25:40 <joanie> we won't have packages until we have f19
16:25:43 <clown> well, I "merely" used yum to update the pyatspi package
16:25:44 <joanie> or rawhide
16:25:48 <clown> ah, I see...
16:26:01 <joanie> i.e. we're doing the Python 3 work NOW
16:26:10 <joanie> so that Fedora and friends will have packages to make
16:26:11 <joanie> :)
16:26:20 <joanie> for their GNOME 3.8 release
16:26:29 <clown> and I"m the guinea pig?  :-)
16:26:36 <joanie> clown: since I'm (sadly) becoming an old hat at this....
16:26:47 <joanie> uh, let's see about "guinea pig"
16:27:00 <joanie> Orca (much bigger than your example) is fully python 3
16:27:08 * clown doesn't mind being a guinea pig, if it proves useful to the ultimate goal.
16:27:14 <joanie> pyatspi (thanks to mgorse) is fully python 3 compatible
16:27:25 <joanie> accerciser has patches and should be ready to go
16:27:33 <joanie> so you are not the guinea pig
16:27:38 <joanie> but you need to squeek
16:27:54 <clown> or squeel.
16:28:00 <joanie> if you ask us, we can tell you what horrible things we encountered
16:28:05 <joanie> and save you headaches
16:28:06 <clown> Is there documentation anywhere that would tell me what I need to do?
16:28:11 <joanie> no
16:28:14 <joanie> I mean, sorta
16:28:27 <clown> that might be useful to have, and not just for me.
16:28:28 <joanie> but for a single example, you don't need things like converter scripts
16:28:41 <joanie> and the a11y changes are not documented
16:28:48 <joanie> and the gdbus stuff is hit or miss
16:29:13 <joanie> I think what would make more sense is for you to tackle it and each time something doesn't work, do NOT rtfm
16:29:16 <joanie> DO ask in #a11y
16:29:28 <joanie> between us all, I bet we can solve these issues
16:29:44 <clown> so, the documentation lies in people's brains in the #a11y room.
16:29:55 <joanie> it's like oral history
16:29:56 <joanie> yes
16:30:06 <joanie> think cantebury tales
16:30:07 <jjmarin> clown: there is a gtk3 python tutorial, but I don't know how useful is for you http://python-gtk-3-tutorial.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
16:30:20 <clown> okay, people — none of you had better become incompacitated!
16:30:28 <joanie> hah
16:30:31 * clown looks.
16:30:34 <joanie> clown: let's nail this one today
16:30:40 <joanie> you don't need the gtk stuff
16:31:01 <clown> joanie:  I don't have time today — sorry.  aside from this meeting, I have to work on another project.
16:31:06 <joanie> okay
16:31:14 <joanie> I may try to do the work for you then
16:31:15 <clown> how about tomorrow?
16:31:21 <joanie> I am also here tomorrow
16:31:30 <clown> okay, but I won't learn much if you do the work.
16:31:31 <joanie> if I get it fixed I'll do a patch for your review
16:31:37 <joanie> okay
16:31:40 <joanie> that I can totally respect
16:31:43 <joanie> tomorrow then
16:31:49 <clown> cool.
16:32:00 <joanie> on f18
16:32:09 <joanie> because of python 3.3 versus 3.2 issues
16:32:11 <clown> yes.  that's fine.
16:32:17 <joanie> and 3.8 distros will be shipping 3.3
16:32:25 <joanie> (sorry for the deep dive api)
16:32:32 <API> no problem
16:32:42 <joanie> #info Joanie and Joseph will collaborate on this work tomorrow (Friday)
16:32:42 <API> joanie, and about the accerciser thing?
16:32:48 <joanie> good point API
16:32:53 <API> I mean that you had an action item from last week
16:33:04 <API> Joanie:
16:33:04 <API> Ping Javi yet again about Python 3
16:33:05 <joanie> #info Joanie pinged Javi privately about his Python 3 conversion
16:33:28 <joanie> #info Javi is currently pretty busy, but indicated he would hopefully get these patches committed soon.
16:33:50 <joanie> #info Failing that, Joanie will offer to re-test and push the patches for Javi.
16:33:55 <joanie> (done)
16:34:01 <joanie> well one more
16:34:30 <joanie> #info Since our team failed to meet the Release Team's (suggested/soft) deadline of 3.7.2, Joanie REALLY believes we need to achieve this for 3.7.3
16:34:34 * joanie looks for schedule
16:34:52 <joanie> 17 December
16:34:59 <joanie> let's aim for sooner than that, however
16:35:04 <joanie> for testing, etc.
16:35:22 <joanie> anything else, Fearless One? :)
16:35:41 <API> no, thats fine
16:35:47 <API> in fact I was thinking on asking the same
16:35:52 <API> anything else?
16:35:55 <joanie> the same == ?
16:36:03 <API> same == anything else on this topic?
16:36:05 <API> moving?
16:36:21 * joanie nods
16:36:44 <API> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
16:36:58 <API> #info gnome fallback has finally declared dead
16:37:10 <API> #info current plan is not having it for GNOME 3.8
16:37:13 <API> done
16:37:15 <API> next one?
16:37:48 <clown> I have no news on 3.8
16:38:02 * joanie thinks
16:38:07 <mgorse> #info mgorse has committed some code to make things re-register if the registry daemon dies
16:38:17 <joanie> mgorse: wooo hooo
16:38:30 * joanie will pull and test
16:38:47 <joanie> mgorse: is rapidly becoming Team Member of the Year :)
16:38:53 <mgorse> #info also, atspi-accessible_get_index_in_parent is fixed
16:38:53 <mgorse> done
16:39:15 <mgorse> joanie: so I guess you could remove the hack you added in at some point if you want
16:39:25 <clown> so, as far as clients are concerned, it's as if the registry daemon never went away?
16:39:39 <mgorse> clown: yes, or at least it should be
16:39:40 <joanie> mgorse: thanks. The hack is mostly a serious of sanity checks
16:39:45 <clown> very nice, mgorse.
16:39:52 <joanie> it is indeed
16:40:00 <joanie> mgorse: could I suggest you announce this on the Orca list
16:40:21 <mgorse> writing myself a note to do that
16:40:34 <joanie> I would like to verify that this solves the reported problems
16:40:57 <joanie> thanks mgorse! I'm totally psyched about this
16:41:32 <API> ok, so any other 3.8 updatE?
16:41:43 * joanie wonders if jhbuild is relevant to mention
16:42:04 <API> joanie, what about jhbuild?
16:42:05 <clown> what about jhbuild?
16:42:14 * clown "great minds..."
16:42:15 <joanie> :)
16:42:36 <clown> looks like something mention.
16:42:41 <clown> "to mention
16:42:54 <joanie> #info Joanie believes for the most part jhbuild is now set for building Orca and Accerciser and dealing with *most* python2 versus python3 things
16:43:12 <joanie> #info However, she has still had to tweak her jhbuildrc depending on what she is trying to build
16:43:35 <joanie> #info So if anyone else finds themselves having jhbuild issues w.r.t. 3.8, she may have answers/work arounds.
16:43:56 <joanie> #info BTW, for the first time perhaps ever, jhbuild now builds speech-dispatcher for Orca
16:44:13 <joanie> #info Joanie will soon do the same for liblouis and brlapi
16:44:22 <joanie> It's like being a real module ;)
16:44:32 <joanie> all hail the python 3 migration
16:44:49 <API> ok, thanks
16:44:52 <API> so moving now?
16:44:56 <joanie> sure
16:45:04 <API> #topic W3C updates
16:45:27 <clown> not a lot of news, but one thing to info...
16:45:45 <clown> #info The current editor of the ARIA User Agent Implementation Guide (UAIG), Andi Snow-Weaver, is leaving.
16:45:55 <clown> #info She is leaving at the end of the month
16:46:03 <clown> #info The new editor is yours truly
16:46:12 <clown> #info Url to the document in question:
16:46:21 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/
16:46:23 <clown> (done).
16:46:28 <joanie> should we say "congrats" or "I'm sorry"?
16:46:35 * joanie looks
16:46:35 <clown> both?
16:46:42 <joanie> I can dig that
16:46:49 <joanie> congrats! (and sorry about the extra work)
16:47:04 <clown> in other related news, anyone here know RIch Schwerdtfeger (sp?)
16:47:15 <joanie> only by name and indirectly
16:47:33 <clown> FYI:  he and his wife were in a motor cycle accident.
16:47:37 <joanie> zomg
16:47:39 <joanie> :(
16:47:41 <clown> they are "okay", considering.
16:47:45 <joanie> crap
16:47:56 <joanie> crap that it happened
16:48:00 <joanie> good that they are "okay"
16:48:02 <clown> I have one email from him:  "We will get through it . Just a rough road ahead."
16:48:14 <joanie> that he is sending email is a good sign
16:48:29 <clown> anyway, thought I'd mention that about another colleague in the a11y field.
16:48:31 <clown> (done).
16:48:52 <clown> joanie:  yes, and it was from his work email.
16:48:57 <clown> also positive.
16:49:01 * joanie nods
16:49:06 <API> ok, good to know
16:49:06 <clown> but, I hope he's not working yet.
16:49:15 <clown> I hope he's taking it easy and healing.
16:49:44 * joanie nods
16:49:49 <API> so as it is 10 minutes ...
16:49:50 <API> argh
16:49:58 <API> my ideas was moving to marketing
16:50:02 <API> ah he is back
16:50:04 <API> so lets move
16:50:07 <API> #topic Marketing
16:50:10 <joanie> :)
16:50:13 <API> jjmarin, are yourhere?
16:50:18 <API> jjmarin, are you here?
16:50:25 <jjmarin> hi !
16:50:34 <clown> lo!
16:50:36 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo opened a bug (#688491) for removing the Desktop a11y Guide and link to the Universal Help page
16:50:40 <jjmarin> :-)
16:50:51 <jjmarin> I'll try to follow this bug
16:50:59 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo is also starting to help to complete the the Universal Help page, but it seems quite updated so far.
16:51:10 <jjmarin> #info If we have new things for a11y users for the next release, you can count with Juanjo to make sure it will be included in the documentation.
16:51:21 <jjmarin> that's all this week ;-)
16:51:32 <jjmarin> questios, suggestions ?
16:51:46 <joanie> jjmarin: yay, thanks for keeping our docs up to date
16:52:03 <jjmarin> np
16:52:43 <jjmarin> :-) next ?
16:53:09 <API> #topic Reminder: Q3's
16:53:13 <API> anything to add here?
16:53:31 <clown> not from me.
16:54:25 <API> well, so just one last item
16:54:36 <API> #topic Miscellaneous Time
16:54:38 <jjmarin> API: have you had the chance to take a look to aday design for the stick key ? https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647711
16:54:39 <tota11y> 04Bug 647711: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Stickykeys does not have a notification system
16:54:42 <API> anything to add not inclded here?
16:54:56 <jjmarin> :-)
16:55:14 <API> do you mean the simple mockup?
16:55:16 <API> yes I saw that
16:55:24 <jjmarin> yes
16:55:24 <API> mat brown
16:55:33 <API> the one that created the bug
16:55:40 <API> already provided feedback
16:56:15 <jjmarin> no, is a new one, there isn no message from you after that
16:56:57 <jjmarin> is a video
16:57:22 <jjmarin> sorry, its not a vide
16:57:24 <jjmarin> video
16:57:29 <jjmarin> http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=229173
16:58:06 <jjmarin> "a simple mockup of what the sticky keys osd could look like. I'm imagining that we'd just make the text bold when the key is locked."
16:58:53 <API> jjmarin, yes thats the comment that I saw
16:59:00 <API> no I didn't say anything
16:59:04 <API> because as I  just said
16:59:06 <API> mat brown
16:59:11 <API> the one that created the bug
16:59:14 <API> already did that
16:59:20 <jjmarin> ah, ok
17:00:27 <API> ok, is 17:00
17:00:39 <API> and seems that nobody else is using/requiring misc time
17:00:45 <API> so lets close the meeting
17:00:52 <API> thanks everybody for being here
17:01:09 <jjmarin> thanks !
17:01:10 <API> #endmeeting