1 16:07:43 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 16:07:43 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Nov 15 16:07:43 2012 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:07:43 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:08:04 <joanie> #topic Java ATK Wrapper: Abandonware?
   5 16:08:20 <joanie> #info There has been some recent talk on the Orca list about Java accessibility.
   6 16:08:35 <joanie> #info One user indicated that he could not build the latest.
   7 16:08:54 <joanie> #info Joanie just tried and confirmed that it doesn't build (autotools issue probably).
   8 16:09:13 <clown> what is it that wrapper for?  I thought java had its own a11y interface that was auto-published?  Or is it this wrapper that exposes java a11y info to atspi?
   9 16:09:22 <joanie> #info But this reminds us (yet again) that the former Sun guys are gone. :(
  10 16:09:37 <joanie> clown: we don't have the bridge in *nix
  11 16:09:50 <clown> ah...
  12 16:09:59 <joanie> different from windows
  13 16:10:07 <joanie> we used to have a java atk bridge I think
  14 16:10:11 <clown> I do see the odd question about the bridge on windows on the java access list.
  15 16:10:20 <clown> but that's windows, not *nix
  16 16:10:20 <joanie> and then when the bonobo deprecation happened
  17 16:10:25 <clown> and it's once in a blue moon.
  18 16:10:37 <joanie> we wound up with this java atk wrapper
  19 16:10:41 <joanie> that I know nothing about
  20 16:10:50 <joanie> other than it seems to be abandonware
  21 16:10:53 <clown> you know more than me :-)
  22 16:11:16 <joanie> #info Joanie wonders what we want to do about this, adding that perhaps we should wait until Piñeiro is back to chime in.
  23 16:11:28 <clown> so, the question is:  do we maintain it? Or do we ask Peter what Oracle's intention is here? Or do nothing?
  24 16:11:44 <joanie> clown: exactly
  25 16:11:49 <clown> I could info that as possible questions to ask.
  26 16:11:55 <joanie> sure
  27 16:11:58 <clown> not knowing the answers...
  28 16:12:03 <joanie> :)
  29 16:12:06 <mgorse> I don't think we'd lose anything by asking Peter
  30 16:12:18 <joanie> Indeed.
  31 16:12:32 <clown> #info questions to ask are:  should we (gnome a11y developers) attempt to maintain the java atk wrapper?  Or,
  32 16:12:49 <joanie> though every time we ask <someone at Oracle> we get people saying nice things like they'll take care of it.
  33 16:12:53 <clown> #info should we touch base with Peter and ask him what Oracle's intentions are here?  Or,
  34 16:12:54 <joanie> But in the end, they don't
  35 16:13:04 <clown> #info should we simplay abandon it?
  36 16:13:20 <clown> s/simplay/simply/
  37 16:13:21 <joanie> So we can ask Peter and he can say nice things, and he can ping the guys behind it, and they can say they will do something
  38 16:13:29 <joanie> but in the end, kiddos, it's us
  39 16:13:44 <joanie> #info Joanie is going to see if she can sort out the build issues.
  40 16:13:53 <clown> #info re:  asking Oracle, we could publish that request on the java-access list to make the request more public.
  41 16:14:38 <clown> (done)
  42 16:14:41 <joanie> clown: sure (and I have no objections to that). But what I said above still stands.
  43 16:15:03 <clown> joanie:  we are on the same page.
  44 16:15:04 <joanie> I doubt they will say "screw you, we're abandoning it"
  45 16:15:28 <joanie> they will say nothing, or say something untrue ("we care about accessibility, and we'll take care of this")
  46 16:15:31 <clown> I kinda wish they would if that's what they actually intend (perhaps with a bit more tact).
  47 16:15:44 <joanie> :)
  48 16:16:01 <joanie> So if I get the fricken thing built I'll likely push that change
  49 16:16:25 <joanie> it might be that we all just have to pitch in and keep the thing sufficiently alive
  50 16:16:31 * joanie shrugs
  51 16:16:33 * clown wonders the status of java on linux/gnome these days, never mind a11y.
  52 16:16:42 <joanie> who knows
  53 16:17:10 <joanie> As I understand it, Eclipse has their own implementation
  54 16:17:25 <joanie> that is (as I understand it) better than official java
  55 16:17:38 <joanie> and doesn't require the wrapper
  56 16:17:51 <joanie> mgorse: any knowledge on any of this?
  57 16:18:11 <clown> as I recall, Eclipse uses SWT for the GUI, which probably means native GTK widgets with a java wrapper.
  58 16:18:20 <mgorse> yeah
  59 16:19:14 <joanie> so it's only pure snorkel java that requires this jaw?
  60 16:19:42 <clown> it's the Java Swing GUI.
  61 16:19:48 <clown> that needs a bridge.
  62 16:20:00 <joanie> clown: info that?
  63 16:20:03 <joanie> pls
  64 16:20:07 <clown> okay...
  65 16:20:41 <clown> #info Eclipse doesn't have this problem probably because it uses the SWT GUI for java, which means native GTK widgets with a java wrapper.
  66 16:21:06 <clown> #info the problem occurs for Java Swing GUI since that GUI is "pure java" widgets.
  67 16:21:26 <clown> #info pure java widgets are not realized by any native widgets, so they need an a11y bridge of some sort.
  68 16:21:27 <mgorse> I guess swt is similar to wx (ie, uses the platform's native widgets)
  69 16:21:37 <clown> mgorse:  right.
  70 16:21:51 <clown> although I've never actually looked at how to code with SWT.
  71 16:22:32 <clown> hence, my "probably" hedge.
  72 16:22:43 <clown> anyhow, done with my infos.
  73 16:22:47 <joanie> so in terms of conclusions, aside from me trying to get the blessed thing built....
  74 16:22:56 <joanie> you think it's worth asking on a public list now?
  75 16:23:09 <joanie> or shall we wait until fearless leader returns?
  76 16:23:28 <clown> i'm inclined to wait for API's opinion.
  77 16:23:43 <joanie> ok
  78 16:23:46 <clown> just in case he knows something we don't.
  79 16:23:57 <joanie> he knows many things, being all wise and crap
  80 16:23:58 <joanie> :P
  81 16:24:13 <clown> and well read (?)
  82 16:24:19 <clown> ;-)
  83 16:24:34 <joanie> about jaw or the log?
  84 16:25:02 <joanie> dunno about the former; the latter, yes, I suspect he will see that.
  85 16:25:15 <clown> about many things.  he has a tendancy to surprise me, and I have a "he knows about that too?" moment.
  86 16:25:46 <joanie> aha. Yes, he knows about many things. It doesn't surprise me.
  87 16:25:58 <joanie> that's why he's lead and I am but a humble minion.
  88 16:25:59 <joanie> ;)
  89 16:26:04 <joanie> anyhoo, moving on
  90 16:26:11 <joanie> #topic Python 3 NOW
  91 16:26:23 <joanie> which is largely for javi who is not here, but....
  92 16:27:00 <joanie> #info This weekend, Matthias stated in #a11y that it would be ideal for us to have the entire accessibility stack Python 3 ready for 3.7.2's release.
  93 16:27:25 <joanie> #info The 3.7.2 release tarballs are due Monday the 19th.
  94 16:27:44 <joanie> #info The only non-ready module from our team is Accerciser.
  95 16:27:59 <joanie> #action Joanie will ping Javi yet again about this.
  96 16:28:13 <joanie> other things to say on this point?
  97 16:28:23 <clown> what's the worst case scenario?  That accerciser ceases to function?
  98 16:28:44 <joanie> yeah, I suppose
  99 16:28:49 <clown> wow...
 100 16:28:53 <joanie> mind you, I did all the patches ages ago
 101 16:29:02 <joanie> some may need updating now
 102 16:29:10 <joanie> there may be python 3.3 things
 103 16:29:16 <joanie> but I did the fricken work
 104 16:29:21 <clown> I do a lot of ARIA testing using accerciser.  Mind you, I'm sticking with F17 for the moment.
 105 16:29:39 <joanie> and I clearly identified what was python 2 compatiable
 106 16:29:49 <joanie> so Javi could have already reviewed and committed it
 107 16:29:54 <mgorse> joanie: Have you tested Orca with Python 3.3? I'm realizing that I haven't done any testing with it so far
 108 16:30:07 <joanie> so I suppose the worst, worst case scenario is hostile module takeover
 109 16:30:18 <joanie> in which someone pushes the changes and does the release
 110 16:30:22 <joanie> mgorse: I have been
 111 16:30:23 <joanie> yes
 112 16:30:30 <joanie> for a while now
 113 16:30:39 <mgorse> okay; that implicitly tests pyatspi somewhat then
 114 16:30:50 <clown> will the interim python-based focus tracker be affected?
 115 16:30:53 <joanie> you need to build speech-dispatcher, and liblouis, and brlapi, etc.
 116 16:31:04 <joanie> clown: Pyatspi has been set for a while now
 117 16:31:12 * clown whew!
 118 16:31:19 <joanie> so you should triple-check
 119 16:31:37 <joanie> but Mike and I did our stuff before the 3.6 release
 120 16:31:43 <clown> I kinda suspected that, but I want to be doubly sure.  Okay, I'll try to give it a test.
 121 16:31:47 <mgorse> clown: I haven't tested the focus tracker itself, though
 122 16:31:48 <joanie> thanks!
 123 16:31:59 <clown> where "try" == "try to find some time".
 124 16:32:40 <clown> just to speed things up:  what do I need to install to make this a valid test?
 125 16:32:42 <joanie> okay, moving on to a related topic (which may or may not have content)
 126 16:32:46 * joanie waits
 127 16:32:59 <joanie> clown: just build it all with python 3
 128 16:33:10 <clown> joanie:  what is "all"?
 129 16:33:17 <joanie> i.e. PYTHON=/usr/bin/python3 ./autogen.sh bla bla bla
 130 16:33:30 <joanie> pyatspi for sure
 131 16:33:39 <clown> okay, anything else?
 132 16:33:40 <joanie> and probably your focus tracker
 133 16:33:50 <clown> that's part of pyatspi
 134 16:34:00 <joanie> module wize yes
 135 16:34:03 <clown> so if I build pyatspi, I build the focustracker.
 136 16:34:08 <joanie> really?
 137 16:34:13 <joanie> okay
 138 16:34:21 <clown> yup.  It's in the "examples" folder of pyatspi.
 139 16:34:23 <joanie> I'll help you look after the meeting if you'd like
 140 16:34:25 <mgorse> It's in an examples directory
 141 16:34:39 <clown> thanks mgorse!
 142 16:34:53 <joanie> but mgorse did his conversion prior to it being added
 143 16:35:04 <clown> joanie:  I have another meeting after this one.  and am extremely busy this afternoon.  Mayber tomorrow we can talk.
 144 16:35:08 <joanie> i.e. it should be tested
 145 16:35:11 <joanie> ok
 146 16:35:22 <joanie> I may look anyway and propose patches if needed
 147 16:35:31 <clown> yes, I will test (sometime in the next week [i hope]).
 148 16:35:44 <joanie> so moving on to a related topic....
 149 16:35:50 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.8 updates
 150 16:35:58 <joanie> other than the Python 3 stuff.... Anything else?
 151 16:37:06 <mgorse> #info mgorse is working on having keystroke listeners preserved/reinstated if the registry daemon dies
 152 16:37:23 <joanie> yay!
 153 16:37:44 <mgorse> (which means that libatspi would have to keep track of what it has registered, which it currently doesn't)
 154 16:37:58 <joanie> btw, is there some way to kick modules again into being accessible?
 155 16:38:19 <joanie> i.e. if the registry dies, running apps are not accessible until those apps are restarted
 156 16:38:56 <mgorse> Do you mean keystroke listeners? Or programs getting kicked off the bus if they send bad data? Or something else?
 157 16:39:06 <joanie> something else I *think*
 158 16:39:24 <joanie> for instance, let's say I'm running Orca in gnome-shell and using gnome-terminal
 159 16:39:39 <joanie> if the registry dies and I launch firefox
 160 16:39:44 <joanie> firefox will be accessible
 161 16:39:47 <mgorse> The keystroke listeners are what I know about that goes away if the registry dies, since they are stored in the registry process
 162 16:39:55 <joanie> but gnome-shell and gnome-terminal won't be
 163 16:40:33 <joanie> if I then restart gnome-shell and/or gnome-terminal, those restarted apps will be accessible again
 164 16:40:57 <mgorse> Have you reproduced this? I'd need to try to figure out exactly what is going on
 165 16:41:02 <joanie> and this is why users on the Orca list have been saying they need to log out and log in when the registry crashes
 166 16:41:17 <joanie> reproduce the crash or the apps not being seen?
 167 16:41:35 <mgorse> either, I guess
 168 16:41:58 <joanie> well, the latter happens reliably (i.e. *when* the registry crashes, the running apps are no longer accessible)
 169 16:42:07 <joanie> I rarely get registry crashes however
 170 16:42:27 <mgorse> When I've seen the registry crash or go away, it usually seemed to coincide with gnome-shell crashing
 171 16:42:44 <joanie> it happens to me independent of that
 172 16:43:12 <joanie> #action Joanie will try to find a way to reproduce apps going away when the registry crashes and file a bug.
 173 16:43:22 <joanie> I dunno if you'll be able to fix that or not, but ....
 174 16:43:45 <mgorse> I'll need to try more to reproduce. A related issue, I guess, is that apps need to be re-registered, since the registry maintains a list of children
 175 16:44:04 * joanie nods
 176 16:44:12 <joanie> it's the re-registering I'm talking about
 177 16:44:14 <joanie> i guess
 178 16:44:15 <joanie> :)
 179 16:44:40 <joanie> i.e. the registry crashing is not ideal, but it's not the end of the world if it auto-restarts itself and all the apps continue to be accessible
 180 16:44:54 <joanie> it's the Orca users having to log out and log in again that concerns me
 181 16:45:13 <mgorse> Maybe. On a related note, it would help if someone had a core when the registry crashes
 182 16:45:47 <joanie> I think I'm going to start working with the registry running under gdb
 183 16:45:55 <joanie> that sounds snarky but i don't mean it that way
 184 16:46:01 <joanie> i usually have a terminal running
 185 16:46:15 <joanie> and get a crash here and there, so I might as well be prepared for it
 186 16:46:25 <joanie> and we cannot ask users to do this
 187 16:46:50 * joanie writes a note to do this
 188 16:47:34 <joanie> okay other stuff?
 189 16:48:07 <mgorse> though some users might be able to save a core and bring up a trace with gdb, if needed. I need to figure out how to modify my settings, actually--right now I just get a file called "core", meaning that it will be overwritten if I have more than one of them, so I've never ended up with a core for the registry daemon, even if I should have one
 190 16:49:26 <joanie> i wonder if I have any cores from what's it's name? (fedora's crash reporter)
 191 16:49:30 <joanie> I'll look for those later
 192 16:49:40 * joanie notes that down too
 193 16:49:57 <joanie> okay, moving on I guess
 194 16:50:07 <joanie> #topic W3C updates
 195 16:50:10 <joanie> two parts
 196 16:50:28 <joanie> #info Joanie emailed the Board list about GNOME joining the W3C.
 197 16:50:39 <joanie> #info Hopefully it will wind up on the Tuesday agenda.
 198 16:50:42 <joanie> (done)
 199 16:50:49 <joanie> clown: you have group updates?
 200 16:51:01 <clown> some info.
 201 16:51:28 <clown> #info One of the groups that Joseph participates in is the Independent User Interface" group.
 202 16:51:38 <clown> #iinfo  Also known as "IndieUI".
 203 16:52:08 <clown> #info it is mostly public:  the mailiing list is public, the meeting minutes are public, and the two documents are public.
 204 16:52:28 <clown> s/#iinfo/#info/
 205 16:52:46 <clown> #info the mailing list is here:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Nov/
 206 16:53:01 <clown> whoops, that just november.
 207 16:53:11 <clown> #info the mailing list is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/
 208 16:53:33 <clown> #info:  latest meeting minutes (from yesterday) are here:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Nov/0035.html
 209 16:54:28 <clown> #info:  the lastest draft describing the proposed UI independent DOM events is here:  https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/tip/src/indie-ui-events.html
 210 16:54:59 <clown> #info: the latest draft describing how user preferences affect web apps is here:  https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/tip/src/indie-ui-context.html
 211 16:55:38 <clown> #info Joseph also particpates in the PFWG — the group defining the ARIA standard
 212 16:56:13 <joanie> what's the pf?
 213 16:56:13 <clown> #info no news this week.  We continue to test implementations of ARIA in different browsers/operating systems/desktops.
 214 16:56:32 <clown> #info "PFWG" is "Protocols and Formats Working Group"
 215 16:56:37 <joanie> aha thanks
 216 16:57:06 <clown> #info they are responsible for making sure that other W3C standards (e.g. SVG) do not inadvertantly create a11y problems.
 217 16:57:32 <clown> #info but, the PFWG major thrust currently is getting ARIA 1.0 out.
 218 16:57:33 <joanie> (cool! and sounds hard)
 219 16:57:50 <clown> questions?
 220 16:58:04 <joanie> not yet. I should read the documents/drafts
 221 16:58:10 <clown> thought of another info.
 222 16:58:11 * joanie notes that down as well
 223 16:59:00 <clown> #info the IndiUI discussion list is public in terms of reading.  If you want to post to the list, you do have to sign up.  It's not unlike signing up of gnome discussion lists.
 224 16:59:26 <clown> s/signing up of gnome discussion/signing up for gnome discussion/
 225 16:59:31 <clown> (done)
 226 16:59:38 <joanie> thanks!!
 227 16:59:45 <clown> you're welcome.
 228 17:00:12 <joanie> having these summaries and docs we should read is quite helpful
 229 17:00:45 <joanie> anyone have questions for clown?
 230 17:01:32 <jjmarin> no from me
 231 17:01:36 <joanie> okay, given the time.....
 232 17:01:41 <joanie> #topic Marketing
 233 17:01:46 <joanie> jjmarin: ?
 234 17:02:17 <jjmarin> ok
 235 17:03:22 <jjmarin> #info I've realised that we have updated yelp gnome info that I think is good for using for the web and remove the current content of the GNOME a11y user guide
 236 17:05:11 <joanie> jjmarin: you mean this: http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html ?
 237 17:05:25 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo will contact the documentation for put this documentation online and I will help to update to gnome 3.6 and future releases
 238 17:06:16 <jjmarin> yes
 239 17:06:35 <joanie> so what do you mean by put it online?
 240 17:06:46 <jjmarin> ok
 241 17:07:52 <jjmarin> I didn't know it was online
 242 17:07:58 <joanie> :)
 243 17:08:00 <jjmarin> this is the yelp documentation
 244 17:08:11 <jjmarin> the idea is using this instead of http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/stable/
 245 17:08:37 <joanie> aha
 246 17:08:57 <joanie> yeah, the g-a-g is old and needs to be removed
 247 17:09:06 <jjmarin> exactly
 248 17:09:19 <joanie> so that involves filing a bug
 249 17:09:56 <joanie> I'm pretty sure that library.gnome.org (unlike the projects.gnome.org) is something not under our control
 250 17:10:09 <joanie> and that bugs are preferred to us just doing it
 251 17:10:19 <joanie> assuming we even *can* just do it
 252 17:10:35 <jjmarin> I think so
 253 17:10:47 <joanie> you think which?
 254 17:11:40 <jjmarin> I think we must ask
 255 17:11:48 * joanie nods
 256 17:11:54 <joanie> file a bug really
 257 17:11:57 <joanie> I've had to do that
 258 17:12:14 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=website
 259 17:13:00 <joanie> okay, so other topics on this front?
 260 17:13:02 <jjmarin> I don-t know if it is good remove Do you think is good just to remove http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/stable/ or link to the new page
 261 17:13:16 <joanie> the g-a-g has gok on it
 262 17:13:25 <joanie> and states that orca does magnification
 263 17:13:26 <jjmarin> yes
 264 17:13:28 <joanie> and is about gnome 2
 265 17:13:29 <jjmarin> very old
 266 17:13:39 <joanie> so the g-a-g should be gagged
 267 17:13:41 <joanie> ;)
 268 17:13:56 <joanie> and a redirect could be done
 269 17:14:01 <joanie> so as not to break any links
 270 17:14:37 <clown> brb
 271 17:15:10 <joanie> so given the time....
 272 17:15:21 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will open a bug for removing  http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html or link to the gnome-access-guide
 273 17:15:40 <joanie> (really, it should be both)
 274 17:16:08 <jjmarin> ok
 275 17:16:15 <joanie> and wait
 276 17:16:20 <joanie> you have it backwards
 277 17:16:33 <joanie> the gnome-access-guide is uber outdated
 278 17:16:40 <jjmarin> sorry
 279 17:16:41 <joanie> it needs to be removed
 280 17:16:44 <jjmarin> I re-action
 281 17:16:46 <joanie> NOT the gnome-help stuff
 282 17:17:15 * clown is back
 283 17:17:28 * joanie waits for the re-action
 284 17:18:13 <jjmarin> #action  Juanjo will open a bug for removing http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/stable/ and link to http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.htm
 285 17:18:26 <joanie> thanks :)
 286 17:18:37 * jjmarin is slow today :-)
 287 17:18:41 <joanie> #topic Reminder Q3's
 288 17:18:47 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q3
 289 17:18:51 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q3
 290 17:19:05 <joanie> #info There still is no due date from the Marketing Team
 291 17:19:17 * joanie is grateful for small miracles
 292 17:19:24 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 293 17:19:35 <joanie> anything to add that wasn't on the agenda?
 294 17:20:36 <clown> not from me.
 295 17:21:00 * jjmarin doesn-t remember anything
 296 17:21:10 <jjmarin> :-)
 297 17:21:18 <joanie> Miscellaneous Time is more fun when serious Piñeiro is here and we can be silly.
 298 17:21:30 <jjmarin> exactly
 299 17:21:45 <clown> who is silly, exaclty?  eh?
 300 17:21:55 <joanie> #info Joanie notes that Miscellaneous Time is far less fun when Fearless Leader is away.
 301 17:22:02 <jjmarin> it's like a class without a teacher :-)
 302 17:22:12 <joanie> hah
 303 17:22:34 <joanie> okay, on that note
 304 17:22:39 <joanie> #endmeeting