1 16:05:44 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:05:44 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Nov  1 16:05:44 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:05:44 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:05:57 <API> #topic FoG update
   5 16:06:30 <API> #info Joanmarie and API sent a mail to Bastien some weeks ago
   6 16:06:51 <API> #info in relation with the "documents proposal" we talked about on the #a11y meeting
   7 16:07:16 <API> #info this week we sent another mail, basically forwarding the proposal written by Joseph
   8 16:07:29 <API> #info in relation with the magnifier focus tracking
   9 16:07:43 <API> #info so we made our part, now in a waiting status
  10 16:07:57 <API> probably joanie can say more abou the "waiting status"
  11 16:08:07 <joanie> not really, but....
  12 16:08:44 <joanie> #info The Board has not formally had this topic on their agenda. In fact, they are not aware of Bastien having the proposal drafts.
  13 16:09:02 <joanie> #info Our last meeting got cancelled on account of Sandy + someone else had a conflict.
  14 16:09:40 <joanie> #info Joanie will likely raise the topic at our next meeting but wants to give Bastien time to reply -- and if nothing else a heads-up.
  15 16:09:48 <joanie> professional courtesy, yadda yadda
  16 16:10:49 <API> so having said so ...
  17 16:10:52 <API> questions, doubts?
  18 16:12:05 <jjmarin1> nop
  19 16:12:16 <clown> there are just two proposals?
  20 16:12:25 <clown> I thought there had been three.
  21 16:12:28 <joanie> clown: as per our previous agreements, yet
  22 16:12:33 <joanie> no
  23 16:12:38 * joanie pulls up minutes
  24 16:12:44 <clown> okay, I'm just remembering wrong.
  25 16:13:25 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20120906#Choosing_the_project.28s.29_to_be_proposed_for_use_of_the_FoG_funds.
  26 16:13:29 <clown> or remembering something from the "distant" past.
  27 16:13:53 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20120913#Concluding_which_project.28s.29_will_be_proposed_for_use_of_the_FoG_funds
  28 16:14:07 <clown> thanks for the reminders joanie
  29 16:14:18 <joanie> :)
  30 16:15:54 <API> well, it seems that nobody is askint/talking about this point
  31 16:15:59 <API> so lets move to next one
  32 16:16:02 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6.2 and/or 3.8 updates
  33 16:16:24 <API> #info Last weekend we tried a relese-team meeting
  34 16:16:44 <API> #info tried in the sense that we thought that we were enough people, but after
  35 16:17:05 <API> #info one hour we were just 3 (started 4) so cancelled it
  36 16:17:22 <API> #info we didn't talk too much about features and so on, we used most of the time
  37 16:17:46 <API> #info to talk about systemd/CK thread and about relationship with distros
  38 16:17:53 <API> (done)
  39 16:18:08 <joanie> #info So we still do not have an answer regarding Python 3.
  40 16:18:51 <joanie> #info Related to distros: Luke mentioned the other day that Ubuntu Raring will be sticking with GNOME 3.6.
  41 16:19:18 <joanie> #info Luke added that he would "attempt" to keep up with the latest accessibility packages. But it is unclear if he will be able to do so.
  42 16:21:01 <jjmarin1> What is Ubuntu Raring ? a Rare version of Ubuntu ? Ubuntu developed by Rare ?
  43 16:21:35 <joanie> Ubuntu Next
  44 16:21:43 <joanie> because no name is too stupid
  45 16:21:53 <clown> http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/18/ubuntu-raring-ringtail/
  46 16:22:09 <joanie> I'm calling it Rascally Rabbit
  47 16:22:16 <joanie> I have better taste
  48 16:22:21 <clown> Wascally Wabbit!
  49 16:22:28 <joanie> I can't wait that long
  50 16:22:28 <jjmarin1> ok, thanks for the clarification :-)
  51 16:23:48 <API> ok, so anyother has any 3.6.2/3.8 update=?
  52 16:24:03 <jjmarin1> #info Allan Day has added the sticky keys bug (#647711) to his ToDo list. So I think it is quite possible that at least we'll got a design for this in this cycle.
  53 16:25:29 <jjmarin1> that's all from my part
  54 16:26:45 * clown reading sticky keys bug.
  55 16:27:09 <API> and another minute of silence, I assume that nobody has anything else to add, or that they are shy
  56 16:27:10 <API> so moving
  57 16:27:13 <API> #topic Marketing
  58 16:27:14 <API> jjmarin1, ?
  59 16:27:40 <jjmarin1> I'm afraid there isn't any about this today :-/
  60 16:28:10 <jjmarin1> I have a message pending about our pages that I'll send soon
  61 16:28:59 <jjmarin1> questions ? :-) :-) :-)
  62 16:29:00 <API> ok, in that case I think that we can keep moving (today meeting seems a race)
  63 16:29:25 <clown> I win!
  64 16:29:35 <jjmarin1> :-)
  65 16:29:36 <API> #topic Reminder: Q3's
  66 16:29:39 <API> well, this is easy
  67 16:29:41 <clown> I lose!
  68 16:29:51 <API> #info please fill the Q3 report
  69 16:29:55 <API> #info everybody
  70 16:30:01 <API> questions, doubts?
  71 16:30:11 <clown> #Info  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q3
  72 16:30:50 <API> clown, thanks
  73 16:31:05 <clown> API, you're welcome
  74 16:31:23 <jjmarin1> record time today ;-)
  75 16:31:27 <API> so, as this point doesn't have too much else to say
  76 16:31:31 <API> #topic "Miscellaneous Time"
  77 16:31:44 <API> anybody has something to add that we didn't schedule?
  78 16:32:20 <jjmarin1> API: Do you foresee any problem to update to Python 3 ?
  79 16:33:32 <clown> yes, what issues does python 3 raise?
  80 16:33:33 <API> well, the problem is not if that update is possible or not
  81 16:33:39 <API> or if it will have problems
  82 16:33:51 <API> the reason it was not done
  83 16:33:58 <API> is because not all the modules made that port
  84 16:34:07 <joanie> most haven't
  85 16:34:15 <API> and the inherent problem would be a mixed python2 and python3 environment
  86 16:34:23 <API> joanie, but not everybody ;)
  87 16:34:29 <API> ah sorry
  88 16:34:31 <API> yes exactly
  89 16:34:35 <API> most haven't
  90 16:34:39 <API> thats the problem
  91 16:34:50 <joanie> they will have to be "forced" to
  92 16:34:55 <API> joanie and jhernandez shown that porting to python3 is possible
  93 16:35:03 <joanie> and we cannot ship a mixed python2 + python3 environment
  94 16:35:06 <API> yes there are issues, but they can be solved
  95 16:35:22 <joanie> and mgorse demonstrated that *some* packages can be compatible with both 2 and 3.
  96 16:35:27 <joanie> Orca and Accerciser less so
  97 16:35:29 <clown> joanie: so one can be running inside python2 and make calls to python3 and vice versa?
  98 16:35:37 <API> as I said, "porting to python3 is too complicated" was not the reason to declare "python3 only"
  99 16:35:37 <joanie> no clown
 100 16:35:44 <API> the reason was that not all the people ported
 101 16:35:49 <joanie> and things break if you do
 102 16:36:12 * clown can't read:  joanie wrote:  "… we *cannot* ship a mixed …"
 103 16:36:16 <joanie> (but your system may try if it cannot find what it is looking for, especially with introspection
 104 16:36:55 <clown> is pyatspi2 one of the modules that needs porting?  or can work in p2 or p3?  or isn't even a module?
 105 16:37:10 <joanie> if we don't get a decision soon, I will branch and maintain two unstable versions yet again
 106 16:37:11 <mgorse> pyatspi2 can work in either
 107 16:37:26 <mgorse> (though currently it only builds for one or the other)
 108 16:37:26 <clown> thanks mgorse
 109 16:37:55 <joanie> 16:35:21 <@joanie> and mgorse demonstrated that *some* packages can be compatible with both 2 and 3.
 110 16:38:09 * jjmarin1 thinks that joanie and jhernandez are our pathfinders :-) and mgorse a peace maker :-)
 111 16:38:33 <joanie> jhernandez did not do the Accerciser port
 112 16:38:38 <joanie> I did (via patches)
 113 16:38:57 <clown> so, there are two forks of Accerciser?
 114 16:39:01 <joanie> no
 115 16:39:07 <joanie> there's a bug with uncommitted patches
 116 16:39:09 <joanie> ;)
 117 16:39:16 <jjmarin1> ok
 118 16:39:23 <clown> and what happens after the patches are committed?
 119 16:39:32 <joanie> I did the dual branch thing before because Ubuntu wanted a Python 3 live CD
 120 16:39:38 <joanie> which meant needed a Python 3 Orca
 121 16:39:53 <joanie> clown: when they are committed Accerciser will be Python 3
 122 16:39:58 <joanie> (I don't get your question)
 123 16:40:27 <clown> joanie:  relates to my "2 forks" question.  I guess the answer depends on whether gnome support p2 and p3 going forward, or just p3.
 124 16:40:39 <joanie> s/forks/ports/ ?
 125 16:40:52 <joanie> The RT needs to decide
 126 16:41:06 <joanie> at some point Python 2.7 will be a non-option
 127 16:41:15 <clown> right.
 128 16:41:20 <API> and probably what RT will do is check how many didn't do that
 129 16:41:24 <API> if there are a lot
 130 16:41:33 <clown> I wrote "whether gnome supports p2 and p3 going forward, or just p3"
 131 16:41:37 <API> still allow python 2.7
 132 16:41:50 <API> and just "promote a lot" the gnome goal
 133 16:41:54 <API> to port to python3
 134 16:41:56 <joanie> API, people will continue to not migrate until they are forced to
 135 16:42:03 <clown> good point.
 136 16:42:03 <API> on the mailing list we briefly talked about this
 137 16:42:12 <API> some of the gnome goals will be cleaned
 138 16:42:16 <joanie> and unlike me, most people will NOT want to maintain two unstable branches
 139 16:42:17 <API> and just focus on some of them
 140 16:42:31 <API> joanie, but the issue is that RT can't force anyone
 141 16:42:34 <joanie> mind you I don't *want* to either. But I am flexible enough to do so
 142 16:42:34 <clown> yes, supporting one unstable branch is better :-)
 143 16:42:35 <API> as much
 144 16:42:42 <joanie> API remember introspection?
 145 16:43:04 <API> it can say "if you don't get X at 3.Y release, your module will be out of the official moduleset"
 146 16:43:12 <API> it==release team
 147 16:43:16 <joanie> API that is (imho) "forcing"
 148 16:43:19 <joanie> NOT in a bad way
 149 16:43:26 <API> joanie, just a subtle forcing
 150 16:43:36 <joanie> someone needs to make this happen. And it is the RT.
 151 16:43:55 <joanie> And if they don't this cycle, fine. But we need a decision very soon
 152 16:44:02 <joanie> either to do the work or to branch
 153 16:45:08 <jjmarin1> joanie: so Ubuntu is running the alternative python3 branch of orca ?
 154 16:45:24 <joanie> yes
 155 16:45:35 <joanie> I do two releases these days
 156 16:45:43 <jjmarin1> OMG !
 157 16:45:46 <clown> s/releases/forks/ ?
 158 16:45:49 <clown> sorry...
 159 16:48:56 * jjmarin1 thinks joanie has to buy another maintainer hat for releasing orca :-P
 160 16:49:42 <clown> heavy lies the crown
 161 16:50:19 <API> lets propose buy another maintainer as a way to use FoG moneis
 162 16:50:20 <API> or not
 163 16:50:25 <API> anyway, 20 minutes of misc time now
 164 16:50:39 <API> and it seems that we already talked a lot about python2 vs python3
 165 16:50:42 <API> so
 166 16:50:50 <API> lets close this fast meeting
 167 16:50:55 <API> thanks everybody for being here
 168 16:50:57 <API> see you
 169 16:50:59 <API> #endmeeting