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   1 16:06:43 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:06:43 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep 13 16:06:43 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:06:43 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:56 <API> #topic Concluding which project(s) will be proposed for use of the FoG funds.
   5 16:07:07 <API> I see the same people that were here last time, but just in case
   6 16:07:23 <API> #info we talked about that on the last meeting
   7 16:07:51 <API> #info the idea was well accepted by the people at the meeting
   8 16:08:09 <API> #info we mentioned that FoG was the main topic on previous meeting, and this one to the list
   9 16:08:20 <API> #info no feedback
  10 16:08:55 <API> #info should we assume that as a implicit approval from the a11y team, and just write the proposal and send to the board?
  11 16:08:57 <API> done
  12 16:09:17 <API> questions, doubts, suggestions?
  13 16:09:31 <joanie> #info During the last meeting, Joanie's proposal included two "to be refined" statements.
  14 16:09:38 <jjmarin> So I think if anyone has nothing more to say, we can go forward with this proposal
  15 16:09:48 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks we should either do the refining or remove the refined
  16 16:10:03 <joanie> #info Joanie also thinks we should identify who will draft these proposals
  17 16:10:16 <joanie> #info Joanie proposes that Joseph draft the caret and focus tracking one
  18 16:10:23 <clown> +1
  19 16:10:26 <joanie> #info Joanie is willing to draft the Document one
  20 16:10:35 <joanie> clown: +1 to what?
  21 16:10:47 <clown> "Joanie proposes that Joseph draft the caret and focus tracking one"
  22 16:11:01 <joanie> ysy
  23 16:11:15 <joanie> I +1 your +1
  24 16:11:20 <joanie> and -1 my typing skills
  25 16:11:52 <joanie> ok so regarding your's clown, will you do the refining in the "to be refined"
  26 16:11:55 <joanie> ?
  27 16:11:59 <clown> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=YSY
  28 16:12:35 * joanie worries about urban dictionary
  29 16:12:40 <joanie> but looks anyway
  30 16:12:40 <clown> joanie, my thought was that since the work has started and progressed, that I would modify the original proposal in light of that.
  31 16:12:53 <clown> in short, bring the proposal up-to-date.
  32 16:13:02 <joanie> awesome
  33 16:13:13 <clown> what is the deadline?
  34 16:13:23 * clown notes it's a busy time with 3.6 coming out...
  35 16:13:30 <joanie> and perhaps include explicitly its relevance to and/or plans for use by other things such as the osk?
  36 16:13:40 <clown> good point.
  37 16:13:51 <joanie> as for "busy time", yes:
  38 16:14:24 <joanie> because of 3.6, because Bastien is a major developer (and the guy who got tasked with this on the Board since Karen is out on maternity leave)
  39 16:14:33 <joanie> I don't think this is an OMG we need it NOW
  40 16:14:58 <joanie> it's more of a "Joanie has been poked about this several times and when Bastien pokes next we need proposals"
  41 16:15:03 <joanie> speaking of which
  42 16:15:07 * joanie info's
  43 16:15:18 * clown action's?
  44 16:15:31 <clown> give me an idea of a deadline — even if a very rough estimate.
  45 16:15:35 <joanie> (not yet)
  46 16:15:38 * joanie returns to infoing
  47 16:15:45 * clown waits
  48 16:16:24 <joanie> #info It is anticipated that Bastien will be contacting us regarding this as he is the one who received this task that was on Karen Sandler's plate. (Karen is on maternity leave.)
  49 16:16:37 <API> anyway, about busy time, probably it would be good to send a notification to them, something like "a11y team have agreed on a project, writing the details, it will be there eventually"
  50 16:16:46 <clown> +1
  51 16:16:52 <joanie> #info There is a small, unexpected chance that Bastien will reject this idea.
  52 16:16:55 <API> so they know that at least, we didnd't forget that
  53 16:17:07 * joanie stops infoing to action for a sec
  54 16:17:11 <joanie> to make everyone happy
  55 16:17:25 <joanie> #action Joanie was already planning to report this back to the Board at the next meeting.
  56 16:17:29 * joanie returns to infoing
  57 16:17:59 <joanie> #info After the next Board meeting (see previous action) we should have some idea regarding what the "deadline" really is.
  58 16:18:03 <joanie> (not done)
  59 16:18:35 <joanie> #info Therefore, it is suggested that we have our ideas fleshed out sufficiently that we can answer Bastien/Board questions should they occur
  60 16:18:54 <clown> so… when is the next board meeting?
  61 16:18:56 <joanie> #info But not necessarily spend significant time on writing them perfectly now.
  62 16:19:15 <joanie> #info Board meetings are every two weeks -- just now moved to Tuesdays.
  63 16:19:27 <joanie> #info the next Board meeting is on 18 Sept at 14:00 UTC
  64 16:19:31 <joanie> now I am done
  65 16:19:32 <joanie> questions?
  66 16:20:07 <joanie> btw I had no idea ysy is like teh
  67 16:20:15 <jjmarin> it sounds good to me :-)
  68 16:20:21 <joanie> I have use for teh; not much for ysy
  69 16:20:33 <joanie> anyhoo, other questions?
  70 16:20:44 <joanie> thanks jjmarin :)
  71 16:20:53 <API> no questions from my side
  72 16:21:04 <joanie> clown?
  73 16:21:10 <API> I think that this plan is good and makes sense
  74 16:21:22 <clown> sounds like I need to write update the old focus tracker proposal by next Tues, albeit not perfectly.
  75 16:21:49 <joanie> I will not be taking that to the Board next Tuesday
  76 16:22:02 <clown> then my question is:
  77 16:22:05 <joanie> but IF you have time, it would be something I could use to answer questions or point to
  78 16:22:19 <clown> what did you mean by "Therefore, it is suggested that we have our ideas fleshed out sufficiently that we can answer Bastien/Board questions should they occur"?
  79 16:22:39 <joanie> What I mean is that I will report to the Board what our conclusions are
  80 16:22:52 <joanie> and Bastien and other board members will no doubt ask questions
  81 16:23:00 <clown> ah, okay.  you are saying that an update would be useful but not necessary by Tue.
  82 16:23:02 <joanie> ideally I will have answers
  83 16:23:16 <jjmarin> clown: you have the old proposal here: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/Biddings
  84 16:23:20 <joanie> if I don't have answers I want to be able to say "I'm not sure, Joseph is working on that, let's ask"
  85 16:23:42 <joanie> and when Bastien asks Joseph, the answer should not be "oh crap, I dunno"
  86 16:23:43 <joanie> :)
  87 16:24:21 <clown> well, it depends on his question.  If he asks, how to solve the problems in the middle east, my answer will be I dunno.
  88 16:24:23 <joanie> so "fleshed out" means "do whatever you need to do mentally or in writing to be prepared to intelligently respond to questions from the Board in a timely fashion"
  89 16:25:05 <joanie> in the case of documents it means API and I should examine the current state of Document accessibility, look up relevant bugs about keyboard nav, examine the patches previously provided
  90 16:25:09 <joanie> etc.
  91 16:25:55 <joanie> clown: Bastien shall not ask questions about the middle east. ;) But please try to anticipate the questions he might reasonably ask
  92 16:26:03 <joanie> and please have a reasonable answer
  93 16:26:48 <joanie> other questions on this topic?
  94 16:27:02 * joanie notes that korn, who never attends meetings, is here
  95 16:27:05 <clown> joanie:  I know.  I exaggerate to make a point: ometimes the questions come from "out in left field", and are something I hadn't anticipated.
  96 16:27:09 * korn Hi gang!
  97 16:27:16 * clown hey korn
  98 16:27:22 <joanie> clown: you've talked with Bastien before?
  99 16:27:24 <joanie> :)
 100 16:27:27 * korn When y'all get to "misc items", I have a misc item for you.
 101 16:27:32 <joanie> ok
 102 16:27:43 <API> korn, as usual, at the end of the meeting
 103 16:27:44 <joanie> we'll move on in the meantime
 104 16:27:49 <clown> not directly, joanie, but during the whole zoom options UI debate on bugzilla.
 105 16:28:00 * joanie nods at clown
 106 16:28:06 <API> so having said, so and as most people agree on this topic
 107 16:28:12 <API> should we move?
 108 16:28:18 <jjmarin> +1
 109 16:28:23 * korn Yup API; just hanging (and reading while I also attend a second meeting) until the end of the meeting
 110 16:28:25 <clown> still, joanie, I'll think about things, make notes, and try to antipciate "right field" questions.
 111 16:28:26 * API realizes that 30 minutes have passed
 112 16:28:33 * clown wow!
 113 16:28:34 <joanie> :)
 114 16:28:46 <joanie> API this was important
 115 16:28:50 <joanie> and 30 minutes haven't
 116 16:28:53 <API> yes, I know
 117 16:28:56 <joanie> as we start 5 minutes late
 118 16:29:00 <joanie> and it's not yet 16:30
 119 16:29:01 <joanie> ;)
 120 16:29:06 <API> not saying "we need to move because we don't have time"
 121 16:29:06 <joanie> but we could move on
 122 16:29:17 <API> ok, so lets move then
 123 16:29:23 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6: Code Freeze is Monday. Accessibility is AlwaysOn(tm). Are we ready?
 124 16:29:30 <API> #info Monday 17 is code freeze
 125 16:29:59 <API> #info for the ones not used to that: that means no code change until final release, unless a really important (crashes, etc) appears
 126 16:30:14 <API> #info doing my tests I didn't found anything relevant
 127 16:30:34 <API> #info this Tuesday some people were talking on #gnome-os about leaks related to a11y
 128 16:30:45 <API> #info ie: bug 683317
 129 16:30:46 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683317 normal, Normal, ---, gtk-bugs, RESOLVED DUPLICATE, Leak in gtk_widget_accessible_get_description()
 130 16:31:07 <API> #info but after some tests, jon mccan found that there are more leaks in other parts (specifically gtk css support)
 131 16:31:14 <API> #info so a11y will not take the blame
 132 16:31:53 <API> #info other worry mentioned is about performance loss and memory
 133 16:32:00 <API> #info jon mccan was asking for data
 134 16:32:30 <API> #info I mentioned that we made some measures last year, and that we made a lot of work to ensure that without AT listening the system will not be affected
 135 16:32:43 <API> #info were "we" is mostly mgorse (kudos)
 136 16:32:53 <clown> definitely kudos.
 137 16:32:55 * joanie +1000's the kudos to mgorse
 138 16:32:57 <API> #info anyway, some people would be "more happy" with more data
 139 16:33:03 <joanie> mgorse: You are a hero
 140 16:33:03 <API> #info so I will do more tests
 141 16:33:14 <joanie> thanks for doing those tests API
 142 16:33:29 <API> #info ie: the accessible objects are still created, something that I thought was not happening
 143 16:33:40 <API> #info probably we could change that, but not *now*
 144 16:33:50 <joanie> btw
 145 16:33:53 <API> #info API will make some more tests, and check if "some data" could be achieved
 146 16:33:54 <mgorse> I have a patch for bug 682209 that I need to commit, to not initialize the cache until it is used, though I haven't reproduced the underlying delay that prompted the bug, and that change won't really fix it; it'll just hide it when a11y isn't in use
 147 16:33:55 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=682209 normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, a11y freezes gucharmap on first click
 148 16:34:11 <joanie> if the objects are still created, won't that means huge trees are still slow
 149 16:34:23 <API> #info API will be grateful if others do the same: specifically tests all the desktop and see if there are some kind of crash of freeze
 150 16:34:37 <API> that bug is a good example
 151 16:34:52 <API> joanie, mclasen also mentioned Company work in relation to treeviews
 152 16:35:05 <API> but yes, main concern of jon mccan was treeviews
 153 16:35:15 <API> s/crash of freeze/crash or freeze
 154 16:35:38 <API> #info in order to make "user oriented tests" there are some ISOs with the last releases
 155 16:35:40 * API looking
 156 16:36:29 <clown> http://napoleon.acc.umu.se/pub/GNOME/misc/testing/GNOME-3.5.91-LiveUSB.iso
 157 16:36:30 <API> #info liveUSB here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2012-September/msg00066.html
 158 16:36:34 <API> (done)
 159 16:36:42 <API> was more long that I thought
 160 16:36:53 <joanie> no worries, this is important too
 161 16:37:04 <API> so, questions, doubts, more comments about this?
 162 16:37:48 <clown> I have a couple of questions about other things related to the code freeze.
 163 16:37:54 <clown> near and dear to me.
 164 16:38:03 <clown> but not about what you info'ed above.
 165 16:38:52 <joanie> clown: please go on and #info as appropriate
 166 16:39:01 <joanie> code freeze is monday
 167 16:39:05 <joanie> it's thursday
 168 16:39:09 <clown> thanks.  two questions.
 169 16:39:14 * joanie sighs and notes she'll be working this weekend
 170 16:39:43 <jjmarin> Apart from mccan, there are any other people who show any concerns about this ?
 171 16:39:47 <clown> I made changes to pyatspi2 to the "makefiles" for distributing the interim focus tracker.  Will those be folded into the code freeze?
 172 16:40:09 * clown oops.  didn't meant to interrupt you jjmarin.
 173 16:40:10 <joanie> clown: if they are committed by monday
 174 16:40:23 <joanie> clown: though that is mgorse's module
 175 16:40:27 <clown> ah good, joanie.  they were committed three days ago.
 176 16:40:38 <mgorse> yeah, I'll create a new release on Monday
 177 16:40:46 <clown> thanks mgorse.
 178 16:40:48 <joanie> clown: code freeze is more about the deadline
 179 16:41:10 <joanie> i.e. must be committed by freeze or it ain't going into 3.6 without RT approval
 180 16:41:31 <joanie> and I have had serious things in the past which only impact Orca users not blessed for freeze break
 181 16:41:32 <API> clown, any case, that interim focus tracker is not part of the main library
 182 16:41:47 <clown> 2nd question:  I found a minor bug in the latest zoom options UI.  I have a patch.  Is there anything special about filing it in bugzilla so it's gets noticed, reviewed, and committed by monday?
 183 16:41:55 <API> I mean that it would not be difficult to ask for a freeze
 184 16:42:08 <joanie> what's the bug?
 185 16:42:23 <clown> really dumb simple:  A missing colon.
 186 16:42:42 <API> clown, well, the problem with that is thats a UI thing
 187 16:42:43 <clown> not actually a code issue.  totally a UI issue.
 188 16:42:45 <joanie> so it's a ui change and possibly a string freeze
 189 16:42:49 <joanie> string announcement I mean
 190 16:42:50 <API> and UI freeze was some weeks ago
 191 16:42:59 <joanie> so you need freeze break request
 192 16:43:11 <clown> ugh.
 193 16:43:19 <joanie> not necessarily ugh
 194 16:43:23 <joanie> if you get it blessed
 195 16:43:37 <joanie> you can use the blessing to poke folks to commit
 196 16:43:54 <clown> who is the beneficent who blesses?
 197 16:44:17 <API> clown, the R-T team
 198 16:44:24 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointFive#Schedule
 199 16:44:33 <joanie> The Freeze: UI Freeze: No UI changes may be made without approval from the release-team and notification to gnome-doc-list@
 200 16:44:33 <API> you need to ask the freeze break request to the release-team mailing list
 201 16:44:37 * clown notes that the 'ugh' is partly due to the fact that it not only changes the "english", but all the translations.
 202 16:44:54 <joanie> String Change Announcement Period: All string changes must be announced to both gnome-i18n@ and gnome-doc-list@.
 203 16:45:05 <joanie> oops
 204 16:45:08 <joanie> we're in string freeze
 205 16:45:16 <joanie> String Freeze: no string changes may be made without confirmation from the l10n team (gnome-i18n@) and notification to both the release team and the GDP (gnome-doc-list@).
 206 16:45:39 <joanie> so I would do as API hinted at: email the RT
 207 16:45:59 <joanie> cite "every detail matters" :P
 208 16:46:09 <joanie> no colon is too small :P
 209 16:46:13 <clown> ;-)
 210 16:46:23 <clown> well, once you see it, it drive you nuts.
 211 16:46:30 <API> clown, more questions?
 212 16:46:53 <clown> there are three sliders all with labels like; "Blah", excpet the last one.
 213 16:47:00 <clown> like "Blah:"
 214 16:47:06 * clown is easy to drop the colon.
 215 16:47:12 <clown> API, no more questions.  Thanks.
 216 16:47:16 <API> ok
 217 16:47:18 <API> jjmarin
 218 16:47:22 <API> about your question
 219 16:47:47 <API> the vocal voice was jon mccan, mclasen just mentioned some about other leak (on a cell renderer)
 220 16:47:54 <API> anyway, doing that testing could be good
 221 16:47:57 <API> having said so
 222 16:48:08 <API> more questions/comments for this point?
 223 16:48:11 <API> moving to next one?
 224 16:49:16 <API> so it seems that no more questions
 225 16:49:19 <API> next topic then
 226 16:49:23 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 227 16:49:25 <API> jjmarin, ?
 228 16:49:42 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo has been working in the a11y section for the release notes.
 229 16:50:07 <jjmarin> #Info This time the notes are short, but I think we have some good features for the release
 230 16:50:22 <jjmarin> you can check in http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.6/
 231 16:50:31 <jjmarin> gnome / 3.6
 232 16:50:50 <jjmarin> take a quick look if you want :-)
 233 16:50:54 * clown thanks jjmarin for work on the release notes.
 234 16:51:01 * joanie thanks jjmarin too
 235 16:51:18 <joanie> having a marketing guy has really been awesome (and extremely helpful)
 236 16:51:28 <jjmarin> :-)
 237 16:52:12 <jjmarin> if no more questions or praises  we can move forward :-P
 238 16:52:38 <clown> jjmarin, I just noticed in the brightness, contrast, etc. release notes:  two different spellings of "greyscale".  Should be consistent.
 239 16:52:45 <clown> the other is "grayscale"
 240 16:53:00 <joanie> heh
 241 16:53:01 <clown> I don't know which is preferred...
 242 16:53:03 <jjmarin> clown: thanks, I take not
 243 16:53:05 <jjmarin> note
 244 16:53:39 <API> so, more questions or praises to jjmaring?
 245 16:53:40 * clown excels in the past few days at niggling details like colons and spelling.
 246 16:53:45 <joanie> user name and password?
 247 16:53:52 <jjmarin> gnome
 248 16:53:54 <jjmarin> 3.6
 249 16:54:03 <joanie> ah
 250 16:54:06 <joanie> sorry I see that now
 251 16:54:07 <joanie> silly me
 252 16:54:33 <joanie> jjmarin: nit
 253 16:54:43 <joanie> s/remarkable better/remarkably better/
 254 16:55:12 <joanie> the rest looks good to me
 255 16:55:16 <API> well, I note that notes review is not a a11y meeting task
 256 16:55:20 <API> so..
 257 16:55:21 <jjmarin> I think there is also a type "via refreshable braille" -> via refreshable Braille display
 258 16:55:25 <jjmarin> typo
 259 16:55:41 <joanie> no
 260 16:55:43 <API> #info jjmarin encourage people to review the notes and provide constructive feedback
 261 16:55:45 <joanie> braille is lowercase
 262 16:55:55 <joanie> please do not capitalize Braille
 263 16:56:01 <jjmarin> ok, thanks
 264 16:56:02 <joanie> unless you are talking about Louis Braille, the guy
 265 16:56:13 <jjmarin> take note
 266 16:56:23 <joanie> thank you again jjmarin!
 267 16:56:28 <API> obviously yes, Louis was a really refreshable guy
 268 16:56:32 <API> rimshot
 269 16:56:38 <joanie> eyeroll
 270 16:56:40 <joanie> :P
 271 16:56:43 <API> so lets move then
 272 16:56:44 <jjmarin> :-)
 273 16:56:49 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 274 16:56:54 <joanie> please before the jokes kill us
 275 16:57:02 <API> as usual time for (short) not scheduled topic
 276 16:57:04 * korn Izzit my turn now?
 277 16:57:09 * clown notes that Louis had lovely dimples when he simled.
 278 16:57:10 <API> korn, I think that you had something to add?
 279 16:57:19 <korn> Yes, thanks API.
 280 16:57:25 * joanie notes that heidi might as well (her NSF grant)
 281 16:57:45 <joanie> heidi: but korn already jumped in
 282 16:57:51 <joanie> so we should let him go first
 283 16:57:53 <korn> A long time ago, I think I mentioned to this group that we were hoping to contribute work on implementing real-time-text support for Ekiga
 284 16:58:07 <joanie> no sorries, just unexpected
 285 16:58:23 <korn> This was one of (I'd say, the last) AEGIS-funded contribution we were hoping to make.
 286 16:59:12 <korn> Long story, but after much testing & difficulties, we've come to the end of the AEGIS project
 287 16:59:33 <korn> And we didn't quite finish the work, but we got far enough along to file a bug, and attach a couple of patches to it.
 288 17:00:05 <korn> You can find that at Ekiga bug #683919:  https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683919
 289 17:00:06 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683919 major, Normal, ---, ekiga-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Ekiga support Text over IP
 290 17:00:07 <tota11y> 04Bug 683919: major, Normal, ---, ekiga-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Ekiga support Text over IP
 291 17:00:45 <korn> So, the question I put before y'all is...  Is this something of interest, that perhaps we want to try to take forward (as, alas, I believe Oracle's work here has to be done)
 292 17:01:11 <korn> At some point - when there is more time for a longer disucssion - I'm happy to go into detail on what we accomplished, and what work remains, etc. etc.
 293 17:01:33 <korn> But quickly... does everyone here know what "real-time-text" is, and why it might be desirable?
 294 17:02:12 <clown> I don't — quick description?
 295 17:02:25 <joanie> well, backing up a sec
 296 17:02:30 <joanie> this bug has status fixed
 297 17:02:35 <joanie> were the changes committed?
 298 17:02:43 <clown> yeah I noticed that too.
 299 17:02:48 <joanie> I see that they have been attached
 300 17:02:55 <joanie> I see no indication in the bug if they have landed
 301 17:02:57 <clown> no review of the patches, and their status is "none", not "comitted"
 302 17:02:59 <korn> Rather than "IM-style" conversations (like this one), real-time-text is essentially like the old UNIX 'talk' application.
 303 17:03:04 <joanie> clown: exactly
 304 17:03:18 <korn> Character by character echo - text sent as it is typed.
 305 17:03:43 <joanie> korn: if these patches provide important support, I probably would have your colleague follow traditional procedure with respect to bugzilla
 306 17:04:05 <joanie> because no one is going to see this "fixed" bug
 307 17:04:07 <korn> It is something that a number of folks in the deaf & hard of hearing community want as an alternative to IM.  To better replicate and provide an option to that community as VoIP isn't an option.
 308 17:05:10 <korn> Joanie: I've been pressing for this to get contributed back to the community for a while.  I didn't suggest that it get marked as "fixed", and done different from community practice.  I'm not thrilled with that - it happened last night while I was sleeping, and this group's meeting was this morning, so I thought I'd take advantage of that in 'misc time' to let y'all know about this.
 309 17:05:33 <joanie> so backing up
 310 17:05:43 <joanie> a) was the patch committed to Ekiga?
 311 17:05:48 * korn My other meeting just ended; making it easier for me to fully participate here.
 312 17:06:06 <joanie> well, this meeting is now in overtime
 313 17:06:07 <korn> No, the patch was not committed.  And in our own testing, we found interoperability issues we didn't manage to fix.
 314 17:06:16 <joanie> so the bug was not fixed
 315 17:06:22 <joanie> yet it has status fixed
 316 17:06:36 * korn Joanie - perhaps this should become part of a future meeting, with more time for it.
 317 17:06:36 <joanie> yanjing guo should undo that status
 318 17:06:43 <clown> Looking at this:  http://git.gnome.org/browse/ekiga.  I don't see the commit (confirming what korn said).
 319 17:06:50 <joanie> well, really, there's nothing to meet about is there?
 320 17:06:55 <joanie> the bug has the wrong status
 321 17:07:01 <joanie> it is not an a11y team module
 322 17:07:02 <mgorse> Yeah, looks to me like the developer didn't understand bugzilla procedure and thought that he shouldmark the bug "fixed" once he submitted the patches, and it was now out of his hands
 323 17:07:10 <joanie> if you want the changes committed
 324 17:07:18 <korn> Joanie, leave aside the wrong status.  Leave aside the commit question.
 325 17:07:20 <joanie> the patch will need review (and from what you described) revision
 326 17:07:36 <joanie> and you will need to convince the ekiga maintainers to include it
 327 17:07:45 <joanie> is ekiga still an official module btw?
 328 17:07:51 <joanie> API thoughts on that?
 329 17:07:57 <joanie> I thought it was no longer core
 330 17:08:08 <API> first, if the patch is not committed the status is wrong
 331 17:08:23 <API> I can change the status, but we could let the developer do that
 332 17:08:26 <joanie> API korn has instructed us not to do that
 333 17:08:31 <joanie> 17:07:18 <korn> Joanie, leave aside the wrong status.  Leave aside the commit question.
 334 17:08:38 <API> second, about korn question
 335 17:08:50 <korn> The issues / questions I'm trying to raise is/are: ...
 336 17:09:08 <API> yes, that feature is good for ekiga, although I don't follow the longer discussion thing
 337 17:09:15 <korn> 1: Is real-time-text support for the deaf something of interest to this community
 338 17:09:25 <korn> (please add a '?' to the end of that last bit)
 339 17:10:00 <korn> 2. Is the work that we've done - partway - an interesting basis from which to continue that (assuming answer to #1 is 'yes')?
 340 17:10:07 <korn> 3. If so... how might we proceed?
 341 17:10:10 <korn> <end of questions>
 342 17:10:20 <joanie> 1. yes
 343 17:10:23 <joanie> 2. I dunno
 344 17:10:32 <korn> I'm not suggesting that we answer any of this today.  I just bring it up now for a longer, future discussion.
 345 17:10:33 <joanie> 3. change the bug status and talk to the ekiga team
 346 17:10:43 <joanie> all questions answered
 347 17:10:56 <clown> is this possiblly better served by and email to the a11y list?
 348 17:10:57 <joanie> the proceeding bit requires (REQUIRES) the ekiga team
 349 17:11:03 <joanie> they will not see the bug
 350 17:11:06 <joanie> because it is fixed
 351 17:11:12 <joanie> they will not know what the bug is about
 352 17:11:14 <API> about 3, the problem is the same that usual, we are underdeveloped
 353 17:11:17 <API> "we"
 354 17:11:24 <API> as joanmarie is saying is not the people on this room
 355 17:11:25 <joanie> because the report is "Project AEGIS need this feature:"
 356 17:11:27 * clown but I am working out...
 357 17:11:28 <API> but ekiga maintainers
 358 17:11:48 <joanie> so contrary to what you keep telling us korn, our points about the status are relevant
 359 17:11:58 <joanie> because you are not going to need to convince us
 360 17:12:04 <joanie> but rather the Ekiga team
 361 17:12:05 <API> all the people in this room is already overloaded, so although we could be interested on that kind of features, we can't be the working force behind
 362 17:12:26 <joanie> and from what you stated korn, the current patch has problems
 363 17:12:33 <joanie> that, too, should be stated in the bug
 364 17:12:41 <korn> Sigh.  Joanie, I'm not saying your points aren't relevant.  I'm saying, can we put those aside for a moment to address some questions.  You did, and in parallel I'm going to work with Yanjing (Oracle Beijing engineer who filed the bug) to fix the problems with that bug.
 365 17:12:43 <joanie> because if the problem is one the ekiga team won't catch
 366 17:13:09 <joanie> And I am saying the points are not only relevant, but form the basis of the next steps
 367 17:13:30 * jjmarin has no idea about communication apps, but from my ignorance I though Empathy was the right app for adding new chat features
 368 17:13:34 <joanie> bottom line: You MUST convince the ekiga developers and work with them
 369 17:13:40 <joanie> We are NOT the ekiga developers
 370 17:13:58 <joanie> None of us here, afaik, contribute to ekiga
 371 17:14:02 <joanie> or are familiar with that code
 372 17:14:16 <joanie> we cannot do anything of any import to address your concerns
 373 17:14:29 <mgorse> Does Ekiga have a mailing list? If so, then it wouldn't hurt to send an email there to ask if anyone is interested in picking up the work. That seems to be the main issue, that someone would need to take the time to finish what AEGIS started
 374 17:14:29 <joanie> other than state: Deaf people should have this feature
 375 17:14:39 <korn> I'm sorry.  I'm clearly not doing a good job communicating this.
 376 17:14:50 <korn> Yes mgorse - that is the core question.
 377 17:16:13 <API> korn, in that case, and as clown suggested, this point is more something to be pushed and tracked via email
 378 17:16:23 <API> anyway, thanks for reporting us about those patches
 379 17:16:35 <korn> Because this meeting was in-process - about 10 minutes after I found out he'd done this - I thought I'd raise the topic here in 'misc. time'.
 380 17:16:56 * clown is worried that we creamed korn here.  surely not our intention.
 381 17:17:00 <korn> But I've held you over time, and I thought heidi might also have an item.  So I'll close my topic.
 382 17:17:10 <API> korn, ok thanks
 383 17:17:14 <joanie> korn: thanks. please raise this with the ekiga team
 384 17:17:16 <API> as I say, thanks for reporting us
 385 17:17:35 <API> so, heidi, just in case you are still here
 386 17:17:44 <API> do you want to mention something ?
 387 
 388 [NOTE: For some reason/bug in meetbot, Heidi's text was not logged and commands not accepted. Joanie will look into this. In the meantime, the following is taken from the bot's backup/always-on logger.]
 389 
 390 <heidi> And from the academic front, Western New England University and colleagues from Drexel and NCC have recieved an NSF grant
 391 <joanie> yayayayay
 392 <heidi> NCC = Nassau Community College
 393 <joanie> and congrats
 394 <heidi> The grant is to provide funding to get faculty members to workshops to learn about FOSS and humanitarian FOSS in particular.
 395 <joanie> btw heidi, if you type a #info in front of your statements, they get auto-added to the meeting minutes
 396 <heidi> Got it
 397 <heidi> #info And from the academic front, Western New England University and colleagues from Drexel and NCC have recieved an NSF grant
 398 <heidi> #info The grant is to provide funding to get faculty members to workshops to learn about FOSS and humanitarian FOSS in particular.
 399 <joanie> tyvm
 400 <joanie> :)
 401 <heidi> #info The work is still ramping up so look for more announcements in the coming months.
 402 * joanie cheers
 403 <heidi> #info And if you know of any faculty who want some help getting started, send them to me!
 404 <heidi> :-)
 405 <heidi> #info ells@wne.edu
 406 <joanie> #info Joanie is still interested in seeing if we could do some of her "outreach program for professors" work in partnership with this new program.
 407 <joanie> GNOME is still interested in doing this
 408 <heidi> #info Heidi thinks this is a really good idea and welcomes all input!
 409 <joanie> and the Executive Director likes the idea (but just went on maternity leave)
 410 <heidi> Ah, good!
 411 <heidi> Having native FOSSers is a really important component of this.
 412 <joanie> anyhoo, I am totally excited about this for the respective universities and colleges
 413 * joanie nods
 414 <heidi> We're also working on building the TeachingOpenSource community as part of the effort.
 415 <heidi> Me too!
 416 <joanie> and anything the accessibility team can do to help you all out, please let us know.
 417 <jjmarin> I like the idea !
 418 <heidi> OK, thanks!
 419 <heidi> Wonderful! I do appreciate how supportive you folks are.
 420 <joanie> we appreciate all of your involvement and the involvement of your students
 421 <heidi> One last question?
 422 * korn Waves goodbye to all
 423 *** korn has left #a11y-meeting
 424 <clown> fine with me, heidi
 425 <joanie> shoot
 426 <clown> fire away
 427 <heidi> I've got students working on Epiphany extensions and Joanie suggested "lists of"
 428 <joanie> we're a polite but violent team
 429 <heidi> :-)
 430 <joanie> heidi: I'm emailing you btw
 431 <heidi> Where with a single keystroke, one could see all of the links on a page.
 432 <heidi> Ah, OK. So is this question moot? I simply wanted feedback on other "list" extensions to direct students to.
 433 <joanie> yeah, I'm answering that now
 434 <clown> not sure what that means, heidi:  the links are highlighted?  made bold?  magnifiied?  :-)
 435 <joanie> for team benefit, JAWS and other windows screen readers as well as voice over....
 436 <joanie> have features to bring up various dialogs with list of elements
 437 <joanie> list of links
 438 <heidi> clown, that all links are shown in a window, allowing the user to navigate only the links.
 439 <joanie> list of headings
 440 <joanie> etc.
 441 <clown> ah, that sounds familiar...
 442 <heidi> Or to select only the links that have been visited, or not visited. etc.
 443 <heidi> :-)
 444 <joanie> so it provides quick overview of content and quick navigation
 445 <clown> reminds me of aria landmark roles.
 446 <joanie> and Orca users want this
 447 <joanie> but it is not something ONLY screen reader users need
 448 <joanie> e.g. a magnification user could also benefit
 449 <joanie> so it makes more sense to have it in the browser
 450 * clown notes that aria is for all ATs, not just screen readers.
 451 <joanie> as an extension
 452 <joanie> exactly
 453 <joanie> and while not ARIA, these list-of dialogs are similar in that spirit
 454 <clown> so I suggest providing something similar (list of dialog) for landmarks roles.
 455 <joanie> moreover, doing it in the browser is more reliable and more performant
 456 <clown> "landmark" roles
 457 <joanie> clown: could you provide us with a list of those roles
 458 <heidi> clown, what are "landmark" roles?
 459 <heidi> :-)
 460 <jjmarin> heido: good question ! :-) I wonder too :-)
 461 <joanie> and how they are identified via html
 462 * clown looks up link.
 463 <joanie> so that they could be done in an epiphany extension
 464 <joanie> yay thanks clown!
 465 <clown> oh, in html, they are defined as "role='blah'"
 466 <heidi> yes, thanks clown!
 467 <clown> and the role attribute is on any element.
 468 <heidi> Ah, got it!
 469 <jjmarin> ok
 470 <clown> this is close:  http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_layout_landmarks
 471 <clown> see step 4. for specifics.
 472 <heidi> clown, thanks! This is quite helpful.
 473 <clown> ysy!
 474 <joanie> awesome thanks clown
 475 <joanie> make that teh awesome :P
 476 <clown> btw, that documentation is for authors.  So, assuming the author has put in the landmarks, then the ATs can make use of them.
 477 <heidi> :-) ditto!
 478 <heidi> Got it.
 479 
 480 [End of backup copy]
 481 
 482 17:31:16 <API> well, folks
 483 17:31:21 <API> anything else in this point?
 484 17:31:25 <API> something else to announce
 485 17:31:39 <API> just mentioning because we are already 30 minutes over time ;)
 486 17:31:48 <clown> so???
 487 17:31:56 <joanie> API always the whip-cracker
 488 17:31:57 * clown ducks.
 489 17:31:59 <joanie> :P
 490 17:32:06 <jjmarin> he
 491 17:32:18 <API> well, just saying that if you want to keep talking about this
 492 17:32:23 <API> details and so on
 493 17:32:28 <API> probably #a11y is a better plance
 494 17:32:34 <joanie> fearless leader has spoken
 495 17:32:40 <API> anyway, heidi congrats
 496 17:32:42 <joanie> all humble minions, change rooms
 497 17:32:43 <joanie> NOW
 498 17:32:45 <joanie> :P
 499 17:32:45 <API> and thanks for the announcement
 500 17:32:53 <API> so, closing meeting
 501 17:33:04 <API> thanks everybody for being here
 502 17:33:17 <joanie> we were happy to do so heidi
 503 17:33:23 <API> really happy
 504 17:33:23 <joanie> and will do so any time you need
 505 17:33:33 <API> #endmeeting

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