1 16:15:59 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:15:59 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Aug 30 16:15:59 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:15:59 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:16:05 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting_.2820_August.29
   5 16:16:11 <API> #topic GUADEC summary sent, questions?
   6 16:16:30 <API> #info API sent a mail with a summary about accesibility related stuff that happened during GUADEC
   7 16:16:52 <API> #info no questions on the mailing list, he allocated a topic on the meeting just in case someone has questions there
   8 16:16:54 <API> so, questions?
   9 16:18:19 <clown> in case:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-August/msg00004.html
  10 16:19:01 <API> really long, probably people didn't read it all
  11 16:19:17 <API> next time I will add bad words at the last paragraph to check if people was still reading
  12 16:19:26 <joanie> API want to summarize each point here?
  13 16:19:36 <joanie> one (short) info per paragraph?
  14 16:19:45 * joanie likes the bad word idea
  15 16:19:47 <API> joanie, well, each paragraph is a summary
  16 16:19:47 * clown found "Mario Sanchez" in the last paragraph.
  17 16:19:55 <API> or at least that was my intention
  18 16:19:58 * joanie bites her tongue
  19 16:20:17 <joanie> API I meant summarize the summary
  20 16:20:22 <joanie> but not necessary if you don't want to
  21 16:20:54 <joanie> Or I could do it.
  22 16:21:22 <API> if you think that are capable to make a summary of the summary
  23 16:21:25 <API> please go on
  24 16:21:27 <joanie> k
  25 16:21:30 * joanie pulls it up
  26 16:21:47 <joanie> #info Everyone should read the full summary, but the highlights are:
  27 16:22:10 <joanie> #info Piñeiro attended the pre-GUADEC UX hackfest.
  28 16:22:36 <joanie> #info Piñeiro gave two presentations about accessibility, one full presentation and one 5-minute summary at the AGM.
  29 16:23:15 <joanie> #info GUADEC had two Wayland presnations. Some relevant discussion occurred which impacts our users and modules (especially around keysnooping)
  30 16:23:52 <joanie> #info After GUADEC we had a two-day unconference. Various team and non-team people floated in and out for discussion and one presentation gave by Joanie.
  31 16:24:30 <joanie> #info Evince a11y was briefly discussed by the developer who had been working on it (Daniel Garcia), but that work may be stalled yet again.
  32 16:24:54 <joanie> #info We had some discussion with the Sugar/OLPC folks. Hard to say what direction that will wind up taking (if any)
  33 16:25:31 <joanie> #info We discovered some security problems about passwords + a11y. Those were now fixed.
  34 16:25:34 <joanie> (done)
  35 16:25:51 <joanie> good enough for government work?
  36 16:26:09 <joanie> people reading the minutes who wish to know more, about any of the above can go read the full thing.
  37 16:26:36 <API> for me is enough
  38 16:26:41 <joanie> moving on then
  39 16:26:44 <API> so as people didn't jump to ask more question
  40 16:26:45 <API> exactly
  41 16:26:57 <API> #topic Feature proposals period for 3.8 started.
  42 16:27:08 <API> #info Feature proposals period for 3.8 started
  43 16:27:27 <API> #action API will send a reminder to the a11y list so people could start to think about it
  44 16:27:41 <API> anyway, at this moment I don't see too many features
  45 16:27:53 <API> except keep improving the "a11y always on" status
  46 16:28:02 <API> and getting the focus thing on gnome-shell
  47 16:28:04 <joanie> what about evince accessibility
  48 16:28:06 <joanie> ?
  49 16:28:07 <clown> url?
  50 16:28:25 <API> clown, url for what?
  51 16:28:36 <clown> the 3.8 features page.
  52 16:28:39 <joanie> i mean seriously, the fact that we STILL do not have accessible pdfs when other platforms have for years, is just <insert swear word here> insane
  53 16:28:49 <joanie> if Daniel cannot do it, fine
  54 16:28:50 <API> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/Features
  55 16:28:51 <joanie> someone else can
  56 16:28:53 <joanie> phone
  57 16:29:03 <API> hmm, the problem is that "someone"
  58 16:29:10 <API> features need a people in charge
  59 16:29:26 <API> s/a people/people
  60 16:29:46 * clown suddenly remembers that features page is one point version less (3.7, not 3.8) .  d'oh!
  61 16:29:49 <API> who will be in charge of that feature? we need people that not only want that for 3.8, but that have a plan for that
  62 16:30:22 <joanie> well, perhaps it winds up being something for the fog funds?
  63 16:30:36 <joanie> if Daniel cannot do it, let's put it out for bid and get someone who can
  64 16:30:42 <joanie> in fact I mean that
  65 16:30:58 <joanie> we can info it when the fog topic comes up
  66 16:31:12 <API> ok, but until this is not confirmed
  67 16:31:23 <API> in the sense of
  68 16:31:24 <API> "we have a project, X won that bid, X will do that work"
  69 16:31:34 <API> we can't propose that feature until X is solved
  70 16:31:46 <API> the point of this topic was not talk about "would like to have to"
  71 16:31:49 <API> but about proposals
  72 16:31:52 <joanie> sorry
  73 16:32:01 <API> obviously we could change the pov
  74 16:32:08 <API> something like
  75 16:32:35 <API> #info focus tracking on gnome-shell will be moved to 3.7 (not needed a re-proposal, just mention on #release-team)
  76 16:32:52 <clown> #action Joseph to move focus-tracking-in-gnome-shell from the 3.6 features page to the 3.8 features page.
  77 16:33:08 <API> #info one feature we would like to have is evince a11y, although we can't propose it yet, until confirm is someone will be work on that, and provide a plan for
  78 16:33:54 <API> #action API-joanie, touch bases to see if that evince a11y could be moved forward
  79 16:34:32 <API> #info in API opinion, most of the rest of the work is mostly improve the stack, mainly checking that the always on stuff works properly
  80 16:34:36 <API> so, more ideas?
  81 16:34:40 <API> anything else in this point?
  82 16:34:45 <joanie> not from me
  83 16:34:51 <joanie> sorry to have "digressed"
  84 16:35:19 <clown> do we need to update anything on the older 3.6 features page?
  85 16:35:32 <clown> or can those pages just stand (and whither)?
  86 16:36:01 <API> clown, well, I think that it would be good to update them
  87 16:36:12 <clown> for example, there was a flurry of activity on the colour preferences for the magnifier.  Should that be noted on the 3.6 feature page for those effects?
  88 16:36:18 <API> ie: color stuff, solved and properly shipped on 3.6
  89 16:36:21 <clown> ok
  90 16:36:24 <API> pending a final review of the ui
  91 16:37:07 <clown> #action Joseph to update the Brightness, Contrast, and Inversion features sub-page on 3.6 features page with respect to the status of the control center UI.
  92 16:38:09 <API> so, moving?
  93 16:38:13 <clown> sure
  94 16:38:42 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6
  95 16:38:57 <API> #info API included more name/role related patches on gnome-shell
  96 16:39:19 <API> #info battery level and current wifi, one of the major complains from Orca users, are now exposed
  97 16:39:26 <joanie> yayayayay
  98 16:39:31 <joanie> way to go API
  99 16:39:44 <clown> awesome
 100 16:39:48 <API> #info API would like to add support for more that one label per item, not sure if in time for 3.6
 101 16:39:53 * joanie suggests infoing notifications
 102 16:39:58 <API> other updteas for 3.6?
 103 16:40:01 <API> ah yes
 104 16:40:10 <joanie> then I will add webkit and braille
 105 16:40:32 <API> #info message tray (place were notifications are placed) are now keyboard navigable, and a shortcut Super+M was added to open it
 106 16:41:03 <API> #info I open a bug because Super+M didn't work on the overview, so probably a different shortcut is required
 107 16:41:06 <API> (done)
 108 16:41:07 <API> next
 109 16:41:11 <joanie> one sec
 110 16:41:13 <joanie> question:
 111 16:41:29 <joanie> didn't they not get spoken by Orca until after 3.4 was released?
 112 16:41:40 <joanie> i.e. they've been presented even before they were navigable
 113 16:41:45 <joanie> but I don't recall when we did that
 114 16:42:37 <joanie> #action Joanie to research when exactly gnome-shell notifications became presented by Orca. (This preceded keyboard navigability and may be something also worth mentioning in the 3.6 release notes)
 115 16:43:03 <joanie> #info Joanie and API have continued to work on WebKitGtk accessibility so Epiphany will be more accessible.
 116 16:44:03 <joanie> #info Joanie added new and cool support for full and braille-only access to WebKitGtk documents into Orca and hopes to do the same for LibreOffice before 3.6 goes out the door.
 117 16:44:24 <joanie> #action Juanjo should check with Joanie about the above two items when preparing the Release Notes for 3.6.
 118 16:44:32 * joanie tries to recall what else?
 119 16:44:33 * API realizes that Joanie comment about notifications was about other stuff, not the message tray
 120 16:44:44 <joanie> what is the thing at the bottom?
 121 16:44:51 <API> message tray
 122 16:44:52 <joanie> that pops up when messages come in?
 123 16:44:57 <API> ah, hmm
 124 16:44:57 <joanie> that's what I am talking about
 125 16:45:05 <API> well, that are just individual notifications
 126 16:45:06 <joanie> tells you your battery is low
 127 16:45:09 <joanie> that something crashed
 128 16:45:10 <joanie> etc.
 129 16:45:14 <API> message tray is that thing at the top right
 130 16:45:15 <joanie> what is the message tray?
 131 16:45:19 <joanie> oh
 132 16:45:20 <API> that appears when you move the mouse there
 133 16:45:30 * clown moves mouse there
 134 16:45:32 <API> if you don't care about notifications
 135 16:45:35 <joanie> if I move the mouse there I get messages?
 136 16:45:37 <API> after a time they disappear
 137 16:45:41 <API> and a icon is added there
 138 16:45:44 <joanie> nope
 139 16:45:49 <joanie> oh well
 140 16:45:50 <joanie> sorry
 141 16:45:52 * joanie is not smart
 142 16:45:56 <API> and if you press on there, the notification appear again
 143 16:46:05 <joanie> I have never seen that
 144 16:46:18 * joanie wonders why
 145 16:46:31 <joanie> #info Seems Joanie didn't know what API was refering to with notifications.
 146 16:46:46 <joanie> s/notifications/message tray/
 147 16:46:54 <joanie> sorry
 148 16:46:59 <joanie> I'll go back to sleep now
 149 16:48:03 <API> ok, someone else has something new to mention in relation to gnome 3.6?
 150 16:48:05 <API> clown, mgorse ?
 151 16:49:16 <clown> can't think of anything.
 152 16:49:49 <mgorse> Is the "accessibility on by default in gtk" something for us to mention?
 153 16:50:34 <API> mgorse, but we already mentioned that
 154 16:50:35 <mgorse> I think that's the main AT-SPI change, that atk-bridge is now a library. That and the usual bug fixes
 155 16:50:50 <API> at this moment I was just asking for new stuff since previous meetings
 156 16:50:50 <mgorse> oh
 157 16:51:33 <API> btw, before I said
 158 16:51:39 <API> <API> message tray is that thing at the top right
 159 16:51:45 <API> is bottom, not top
 160 16:52:00 <API> ok, as just 10 minutes to go
 161 16:52:08 <API> lets move to try to cover the agenda
 162 16:52:17 <clown> ah, yes.  when I mouse to the bottom right, I get a "shadow" popping up along the bottom edge.
 163 16:52:17 <API> #topic Planning how to use the FoG funds.
 164 16:52:34 <API> #info accessibility FoG has finished, now we need to decide how to use the money
 165 16:52:40 <API> #info Our idea
 166 16:52:56 <API> #info at least my (API) idea, was talk about that on the a11y-meetings
 167 16:53:15 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks that we should do the following:
 168 16:53:15 <API> #info but it seems that due holidays and so we didn't have too much people on the meetings
 169 16:53:16 <API> so
 170 16:53:22 * API waiting
 171 16:53:59 <joanie> #info 1. Start with the original list of proposed projects which was used when launching the FoG (after all, we cannot do a "bait and switch" on contributors)
 172 16:54:20 <joanie> #info 2. Given that we are not talking all that much money, identify which of those items are the most critical.
 173 16:54:36 <joanie> #info 3. Propose those items as the "final" projects to the Board.
 174 16:54:45 <joanie> (done)
 175 16:55:53 <clown> +1
 176 16:56:08 <joanie> I will add the following:
 177 16:56:19 <joanie> #info the original list is here: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
 178 16:57:00 <API> how 2 would be implemented?
 179 16:57:14 <API> some of the people of the team or discussion on the a11y mailing list?
 180 16:57:26 <joanie> Well, the only people showing interest are here
 181 16:57:32 <joanie> so ....
 182 16:57:33 <API> what I mean is, will be there some kind of mail to the list before mailing the board?
 183 16:57:44 <joanie> well about that
 184 16:58:05 <clown> announce the discussion of this issue on the mailing list to be discussed at these weekly meetings.  Give a deadline.
 185 16:58:13 <joanie> +1 clown
 186 16:58:21 <joanie> clown: please info that
 187 16:58:27 <clown> that way no one should be able to complain "I didn't know when that was discussed."
 188 16:58:33 <joanie> yup
 189 16:59:14 <clown> #info Announce the discussion of projects for FoG funds on the a11y mailing list
 190 16:59:36 <clown> #info Stipulate that the discussion will happen at the weekly a11y meetings.
 191 17:00:04 <clown> #info Decide on a deadline for the end of that discussion, and state that explcitly in the announcement.
 192 17:00:21 <clown> #info invite all interested parties to attend the a11y weekly meeting.
 193 17:00:23 <clown> (done).
 194 17:00:28 <joanie> thanks
 195 17:02:27 <API> so, as we are already over time
 196 17:02:33 <clown> no problem.  if we have a deadline, I can compose that email over the next week.
 197 17:02:33 <API> anything else in this point=
 198 17:02:34 <API> ?
 199 17:03:05 <clown> API, I saw an email about quarterly reports just before I went on vacation.
 200 17:03:10 <API> ah true
 201 17:03:17 <API> #topic reminders
 202 17:03:18 <clown> I didn't have time to deal with it then, and can't find the email anymore.
 203 17:03:26 <API> #info we need to fill quarterly report
 204 17:03:36 <API> #info we need to start to think to fill release notes for 3.6
 205 17:03:46 * API looking for email
 206 17:03:49 <clown> good point.
 207 17:03:55 <clown> re: release notes.
 208 17:04:42 <joanie> #info Joanie saw that on the marketing list Juanjo volunteered to tackle this for a11y.
 209 17:04:50 <API> well, I don't remember any mail sent by me
 210 17:04:53 <API> but fwiw
 211 17:04:58 <API> https://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q2
 212 17:05:01 <joanie> #info This is why Joanie added the earlier gnome 3.6 info and action points
 213 17:05:03 * clown feels really grateful to Juanjo
 214 17:05:19 <API> joanie yes, I forgot to mention that during that topic
 215 17:05:20 <clown> API, I think Andre sent the email.
 216 17:05:43 <joanie> #info Andre did send the email. Everyone had fallen behind due to GUADEC, etc.
 217 17:06:02 <joanie> #info Joanie will try to put something together soon but has been working hard on a project.
 218 17:06:33 <joanie> #action Joanie will write something at the first of next week and submit it to Piñeiro for review
 219 17:07:45 <API> ok, more on that point?
 220 17:07:59 <clown> is this it:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2012-July/msg00005.html
 221 17:08:45 <clown> will there be the standard a11y wiki page to stage our contributions for the quarter?
 222 17:08:50 <joanie> there was a later one
 223 17:08:56 <joanie> clown: we're behind on q2
 224 17:09:02 <joanie> but yes
 225 17:11:34 <API> so in order to finish the meeting
 226 17:11:40 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 227 17:11:48 <API> anything not included on the agenda to mention?
 228 17:12:26 <joanie> #info Joanie just added https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q3
 229 17:12:33 <joanie> stage away clown
 230 17:12:35 <joanie> :)
 231 17:12:46 <clown> :-)
 232 17:13:29 <joanie> clown: save me the scrollup time. For the 3.6 minutes, did you add the pyatspi example fallback plan?
 233 17:13:38 <joanie> if not, could you info it here?
 234 17:13:43 <clown> sure.
 235 17:13:47 <joanie> ty
 236 17:14:32 <clown> #info Re:  3.6 issues:  Joseph opened a bug and provided a patch for pyatspi
 237 17:14:52 <clown> #info this is a fallback for the incomplete gnome-shell focus tracking
 238 17:15:22 <clown> #info status is:  reviewed an approved by Mike Gorse.
 239 17:15:47 <clown> #info Joseph added another patch to fix one annoying aspect of the initial patch — not reviewed yet.
 240 17:16:21 <clown> #info Pre Mike's advice, Joseph is looking into modifying makefile so the examples folder is included in the tar file
 241 17:16:39 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=682636
 242 17:16:39 <tota11y> 04Bug 682636: normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, Interim focus tracking for gnome-shell magnifier via D-Bus
 243 17:17:03 <clown> (done).  About that makefile issue — I'm stumped.
 244 17:17:14 <clown> any makefile experts around to give advice.
 245 17:17:18 <mgorse> clown: I'll look at the patch after the meeting if you'd like. And I could just update the Makefiles after you commit if you'd prefer
 246 17:17:52 <clown> mgorse:  thanks.  regarding the makefile, go for it.
 247 17:18:07 <clown> I'll look at it afterwards so I know how do it next time.
 248 17:18:08 <mgorse> might be good just to add some kind of noinst line, or at least to look at what other modules have for examples
 249 17:18:15 <mgorse> ok
 250 17:18:43 <clown> yeah, I was fiddling with "EXTRA_DIST" at  one point, but didn't put in the right place (or something).
 251 17:19:06 <mgorse> oh. yeah, that seems like what we'd want
 252 17:19:36 <mgorse> but we need a new Makefile.am, and to put it in subdirs for the main Makefile, and to have configure.ac write out the new Makefile
 253 17:20:11 <clown> aha!  I didn't think to even look at configure.ac.  maybe that's the critical point.
 254 17:20:57 * joanie smiles
 255 17:21:01 <joanie> configure.ac is where it's all at
 256 17:21:25 <joanie> well, most of it
 257 17:23:38 <clown> btw, did joanie and API see the email exchange between Peter and I (you were cc'ed)?
 258 17:23:58 <joanie> yes
 259 17:24:18 <joanie> and I was somewhat taken aback by Peter's surprise
 260 17:24:26 * clown looks for that email.
 261 17:24:29 <joanie> but did not yet have the time to search all my logs
 262 17:24:39 <joanie> Peter knew about this change
 263 17:24:57 <joanie> I have told him (and I believe on a couple of occasions)
 264 17:25:06 <joanie> although he does like to use OTR
 265 17:25:24 <clown> OTR?
 266 17:25:26 <joanie> and it was also mentioned on the Orca mailing list
 267 17:25:32 <joanie> off-the-record chat plugin
 268 17:25:35 <joanie> ;)
 269 17:26:21 <joanie> anyhoo, I had nothing (constructive) to add to the discussion. hence I did not.
 270 17:26:24 <clown> Well, I plan to answer his last question soon-ish:  Given the code that Joanie has now (again?) formally put forward for tracking the mouse via AT-SPI, what is the likelihood that this functionality will make into GNOME Shell Magnifier for 3.6?
 271 17:26:25 <joanie> but I did see the emial.
 272 17:26:34 <joanie> oh and that
 273 17:26:38 <joanie> I didn't put it forward
 274 17:26:43 <joanie> I provided a hack workaround
 275 17:26:52 <joanie> and stated that this was not my problem
 276 17:26:56 <clown> I know.  I found the question kind of confusing.
 277 17:27:10 <joanie> I found his wording somewhat provocative
 278 17:27:18 <clown> since it doesn't track the mouse.
 279 17:27:33 <joanie> well, that is just (I assume) a mistype
 280 17:27:38 <joanie> or he really is clueless
 281 17:27:48 <joanie> but I put forward nothing
 282 17:28:02 <joanie> be it real or imaginary (mouse tracking)
 283 17:28:03 <joanie> ;)
 284 17:28:27 <joanie> anyway, I have been focusing (pun intended) on webkitgtk a11y
 285 17:28:42 <joanie> and figured I'd leave Peter to you clown
 286 17:28:43 <joanie> :)
 287 17:28:52 <clown> my answer in brief is:  the proof-of-concept code has been put forward as a stopgap, and cannot be used for GNOME Shell.  The other bug is a port of parts of this POF to a device that does operate within GS.
 288 17:29:38 <clown> "The other bug" = See the work on the gs-bug (I forget the number) .  That work is a port ...
 289 17:30:06 <API> well, almost 30 minutes of misc time, so if you don't mind I will close the meeting
 290 17:30:14 <API> you can continue on the #a11y channel
 291 17:30:24 <clown> okay
 292 17:30:24 <API> if you have more peter-korn stuff to talk about
 293 17:30:29 <API> thanks people
 294 17:30:32 <API> #endmeeting