16:15:59 #startmeeting 16:15:59 Meeting started Thu Aug 30 16:15:59 2012 CET. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:15:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:16:05 https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting_.2820_August.29 16:16:11 #topic GUADEC summary sent, questions? 16:16:30 #info API sent a mail with a summary about accesibility related stuff that happened during GUADEC 16:16:52 #info no questions on the mailing list, he allocated a topic on the meeting just in case someone has questions there 16:16:54 so, questions? 16:18:19 in case: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-August/msg00004.html 16:19:01 really long, probably people didn't read it all 16:19:17 next time I will add bad words at the last paragraph to check if people was still reading 16:19:26 API want to summarize each point here? 16:19:36 one (short) info per paragraph? 16:19:45 * joanie likes the bad word idea 16:19:47 joanie, well, each paragraph is a summary 16:19:47 * clown found "Mario Sanchez" in the last paragraph. 16:19:55 or at least that was my intention 16:19:58 * joanie bites her tongue 16:20:17 API I meant summarize the summary 16:20:22 but not necessary if you don't want to 16:20:54 Or I could do it. 16:21:22 if you think that are capable to make a summary of the summary 16:21:25 please go on 16:21:27 k 16:21:30 * joanie pulls it up 16:21:47 #info Everyone should read the full summary, but the highlights are: 16:22:10 #info Piñeiro attended the pre-GUADEC UX hackfest. 16:22:36 #info Piñeiro gave two presentations about accessibility, one full presentation and one 5-minute summary at the AGM. 16:23:15 #info GUADEC had two Wayland presnations. Some relevant discussion occurred which impacts our users and modules (especially around keysnooping) 16:23:52 #info After GUADEC we had a two-day unconference. Various team and non-team people floated in and out for discussion and one presentation gave by Joanie. 16:24:30 #info Evince a11y was briefly discussed by the developer who had been working on it (Daniel Garcia), but that work may be stalled yet again. 16:24:54 #info We had some discussion with the Sugar/OLPC folks. Hard to say what direction that will wind up taking (if any) 16:25:31 #info We discovered some security problems about passwords + a11y. Those were now fixed. 16:25:34 (done) 16:25:51 good enough for government work? 16:26:09 people reading the minutes who wish to know more, about any of the above can go read the full thing. 16:26:36 for me is enough 16:26:41 moving on then 16:26:44 so as people didn't jump to ask more question 16:26:45 exactly 16:26:57 #topic Feature proposals period for 3.8 started. 16:27:08 #info Feature proposals period for 3.8 started 16:27:27 #action API will send a reminder to the a11y list so people could start to think about it 16:27:41 anyway, at this moment I don't see too many features 16:27:53 except keep improving the "a11y always on" status 16:28:02 and getting the focus thing on gnome-shell 16:28:04 what about evince accessibility 16:28:06 ? 16:28:07 url? 16:28:25 clown, url for what? 16:28:36 the 3.8 features page. 16:28:39 i mean seriously, the fact that we STILL do not have accessible pdfs when other platforms have for years, is just insane 16:28:49 if Daniel cannot do it, fine 16:28:50 https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/Features 16:28:51 someone else can 16:28:53 phone 16:29:03 hmm, the problem is that "someone" 16:29:10 features need a people in charge 16:29:26 s/a people/people 16:29:46 * clown suddenly remembers that features page is one point version less (3.7, not 3.8) . d'oh! 16:29:49 who will be in charge of that feature? we need people that not only want that for 3.8, but that have a plan for that 16:30:22 well, perhaps it winds up being something for the fog funds? 16:30:36 if Daniel cannot do it, let's put it out for bid and get someone who can 16:30:42 in fact I mean that 16:30:58 we can info it when the fog topic comes up 16:31:12 ok, but until this is not confirmed 16:31:23 in the sense of 16:31:24 "we have a project, X won that bid, X will do that work" 16:31:34 we can't propose that feature until X is solved 16:31:46 the point of this topic was not talk about "would like to have to" 16:31:49 but about proposals 16:31:52 sorry 16:32:01 obviously we could change the pov 16:32:08 something like 16:32:35 #info focus tracking on gnome-shell will be moved to 3.7 (not needed a re-proposal, just mention on #release-team) 16:32:52 #action Joseph to move focus-tracking-in-gnome-shell from the 3.6 features page to the 3.8 features page. 16:33:08 #info one feature we would like to have is evince a11y, although we can't propose it yet, until confirm is someone will be work on that, and provide a plan for 16:33:54 #action API-joanie, touch bases to see if that evince a11y could be moved forward 16:34:32 #info in API opinion, most of the rest of the work is mostly improve the stack, mainly checking that the always on stuff works properly 16:34:36 so, more ideas? 16:34:40 anything else in this point? 16:34:45 not from me 16:34:51 sorry to have "digressed" 16:35:19 do we need to update anything on the older 3.6 features page? 16:35:32 or can those pages just stand (and whither)? 16:36:01 clown, well, I think that it would be good to update them 16:36:12 for example, there was a flurry of activity on the colour preferences for the magnifier. Should that be noted on the 3.6 feature page for those effects? 16:36:18 ie: color stuff, solved and properly shipped on 3.6 16:36:21 ok 16:36:24 pending a final review of the ui 16:37:07 #action Joseph to update the Brightness, Contrast, and Inversion features sub-page on 3.6 features page with respect to the status of the control center UI. 16:38:09 so, moving? 16:38:13 sure 16:38:42 #topic GNOME 3.6 16:38:57 #info API included more name/role related patches on gnome-shell 16:39:19 #info battery level and current wifi, one of the major complains from Orca users, are now exposed 16:39:26 yayayayay 16:39:31 way to go API 16:39:44 awesome 16:39:48 #info API would like to add support for more that one label per item, not sure if in time for 3.6 16:39:53 * joanie suggests infoing notifications 16:39:58 other updteas for 3.6? 16:40:01 ah yes 16:40:10 then I will add webkit and braille 16:40:32 #info message tray (place were notifications are placed) are now keyboard navigable, and a shortcut Super+M was added to open it 16:41:03 #info I open a bug because Super+M didn't work on the overview, so probably a different shortcut is required 16:41:06 (done) 16:41:07 next 16:41:11 one sec 16:41:13 question: 16:41:29 didn't they not get spoken by Orca until after 3.4 was released? 16:41:40 i.e. they've been presented even before they were navigable 16:41:45 but I don't recall when we did that 16:42:37 #action Joanie to research when exactly gnome-shell notifications became presented by Orca. (This preceded keyboard navigability and may be something also worth mentioning in the 3.6 release notes) 16:43:03 #info Joanie and API have continued to work on WebKitGtk accessibility so Epiphany will be more accessible. 16:44:03 #info Joanie added new and cool support for full and braille-only access to WebKitGtk documents into Orca and hopes to do the same for LibreOffice before 3.6 goes out the door. 16:44:24 #action Juanjo should check with Joanie about the above two items when preparing the Release Notes for 3.6. 16:44:32 * joanie tries to recall what else? 16:44:33 * API realizes that Joanie comment about notifications was about other stuff, not the message tray 16:44:44 what is the thing at the bottom? 16:44:51 message tray 16:44:52 that pops up when messages come in? 16:44:57 ah, hmm 16:44:57 that's what I am talking about 16:45:05 well, that are just individual notifications 16:45:06 tells you your battery is low 16:45:09 that something crashed 16:45:10 etc. 16:45:14 message tray is that thing at the top right 16:45:15 what is the message tray? 16:45:19 oh 16:45:20 that appears when you move the mouse there 16:45:30 * clown moves mouse there 16:45:32 if you don't care about notifications 16:45:35 if I move the mouse there I get messages? 16:45:37 after a time they disappear 16:45:41 and a icon is added there 16:45:44 nope 16:45:49 oh well 16:45:50 sorry 16:45:52 * joanie is not smart 16:45:56 and if you press on there, the notification appear again 16:46:05 I have never seen that 16:46:18 * joanie wonders why 16:46:31 #info Seems Joanie didn't know what API was refering to with notifications. 16:46:46 s/notifications/message tray/ 16:46:54 sorry 16:46:59 I'll go back to sleep now 16:48:03 ok, someone else has something new to mention in relation to gnome 3.6? 16:48:05 clown, mgorse ? 16:49:16 can't think of anything. 16:49:49 Is the "accessibility on by default in gtk" something for us to mention? 16:50:34 mgorse, but we already mentioned that 16:50:35 I think that's the main AT-SPI change, that atk-bridge is now a library. That and the usual bug fixes 16:50:50 at this moment I was just asking for new stuff since previous meetings 16:50:50 oh 16:51:33 btw, before I said 16:51:39 message tray is that thing at the top right 16:51:45 is bottom, not top 16:52:00 ok, as just 10 minutes to go 16:52:08 lets move to try to cover the agenda 16:52:17 ah, yes. when I mouse to the bottom right, I get a "shadow" popping up along the bottom edge. 16:52:17 #topic Planning how to use the FoG funds. 16:52:34 #info accessibility FoG has finished, now we need to decide how to use the money 16:52:40 #info Our idea 16:52:56 #info at least my (API) idea, was talk about that on the a11y-meetings 16:53:15 #info Joanie thinks that we should do the following: 16:53:15 #info but it seems that due holidays and so we didn't have too much people on the meetings 16:53:16 so 16:53:22 * API waiting 16:53:59 #info 1. Start with the original list of proposed projects which was used when launching the FoG (after all, we cannot do a "bait and switch" on contributors) 16:54:20 #info 2. Given that we are not talking all that much money, identify which of those items are the most critical. 16:54:36 #info 3. Propose those items as the "final" projects to the Board. 16:54:45 (done) 16:55:53 +1 16:56:08 I will add the following: 16:56:19 #info the original list is here: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG 16:57:00 how 2 would be implemented? 16:57:14 some of the people of the team or discussion on the a11y mailing list? 16:57:26 Well, the only people showing interest are here 16:57:32 so .... 16:57:33 what I mean is, will be there some kind of mail to the list before mailing the board? 16:57:44 well about that 16:58:05 announce the discussion of this issue on the mailing list to be discussed at these weekly meetings. Give a deadline. 16:58:13 +1 clown 16:58:21 clown: please info that 16:58:27 that way no one should be able to complain "I didn't know when that was discussed." 16:58:33 yup 16:59:14 #info Announce the discussion of projects for FoG funds on the a11y mailing list 16:59:36 #info Stipulate that the discussion will happen at the weekly a11y meetings. 17:00:04 #info Decide on a deadline for the end of that discussion, and state that explcitly in the announcement. 17:00:21 #info invite all interested parties to attend the a11y weekly meeting. 17:00:23 (done). 17:00:28 thanks 17:02:27 so, as we are already over time 17:02:33 no problem. if we have a deadline, I can compose that email over the next week. 17:02:33 anything else in this point= 17:02:34 ? 17:03:05 API, I saw an email about quarterly reports just before I went on vacation. 17:03:10 ah true 17:03:17 #topic reminders 17:03:18 I didn't have time to deal with it then, and can't find the email anymore. 17:03:26 #info we need to fill quarterly report 17:03:36 #info we need to start to think to fill release notes for 3.6 17:03:46 * API looking for email 17:03:49 good point. 17:03:55 re: release notes. 17:04:42 #info Joanie saw that on the marketing list Juanjo volunteered to tackle this for a11y. 17:04:50 well, I don't remember any mail sent by me 17:04:53 but fwiw 17:04:58 https://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q2 17:05:01 #info This is why Joanie added the earlier gnome 3.6 info and action points 17:05:03 * clown feels really grateful to Juanjo 17:05:19 joanie yes, I forgot to mention that during that topic 17:05:20 API, I think Andre sent the email. 17:05:43 #info Andre did send the email. Everyone had fallen behind due to GUADEC, etc. 17:06:02 #info Joanie will try to put something together soon but has been working hard on a project. 17:06:33 #action Joanie will write something at the first of next week and submit it to Piñeiro for review 17:07:45 ok, more on that point? 17:07:59 is this it: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-web-list/2012-July/msg00005.html 17:08:45 will there be the standard a11y wiki page to stage our contributions for the quarter? 17:08:50 there was a later one 17:08:56 clown: we're behind on q2 17:09:02 but yes 17:11:34 so in order to finish the meeting 17:11:40 #topic miscellaneous time 17:11:48 anything not included on the agenda to mention? 17:12:26 #info Joanie just added https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q3 17:12:33 stage away clown 17:12:35 :) 17:12:46 :-) 17:13:29 clown: save me the scrollup time. For the 3.6 minutes, did you add the pyatspi example fallback plan? 17:13:38 if not, could you info it here? 17:13:43 sure. 17:13:47 ty 17:14:32 #info Re: 3.6 issues: Joseph opened a bug and provided a patch for pyatspi 17:14:52 #info this is a fallback for the incomplete gnome-shell focus tracking 17:15:22 #info status is: reviewed an approved by Mike Gorse. 17:15:47 #info Joseph added another patch to fix one annoying aspect of the initial patch — not reviewed yet. 17:16:21 #info Pre Mike's advice, Joseph is looking into modifying makefile so the examples folder is included in the tar file 17:16:39 #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=682636 17:16:39 04Bug 682636: normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, Interim focus tracking for gnome-shell magnifier via D-Bus 17:17:03 (done). About that makefile issue — I'm stumped. 17:17:14 any makefile experts around to give advice. 17:17:18 clown: I'll look at the patch after the meeting if you'd like. And I could just update the Makefiles after you commit if you'd prefer 17:17:52 mgorse: thanks. regarding the makefile, go for it. 17:18:07 I'll look at it afterwards so I know how do it next time. 17:18:08 might be good just to add some kind of noinst line, or at least to look at what other modules have for examples 17:18:15 ok 17:18:43 yeah, I was fiddling with "EXTRA_DIST" at one point, but didn't put in the right place (or something). 17:19:06 oh. yeah, that seems like what we'd want 17:19:36 but we need a new Makefile.am, and to put it in subdirs for the main Makefile, and to have configure.ac write out the new Makefile 17:20:11 aha! I didn't think to even look at configure.ac. maybe that's the critical point. 17:20:57 * joanie smiles 17:21:01 configure.ac is where it's all at 17:21:25 well, most of it 17:23:38 btw, did joanie and API see the email exchange between Peter and I (you were cc'ed)? 17:23:58 yes 17:24:18 and I was somewhat taken aback by Peter's surprise 17:24:26 * clown looks for that email. 17:24:29 but did not yet have the time to search all my logs 17:24:39 Peter knew about this change 17:24:57 I have told him (and I believe on a couple of occasions) 17:25:06 although he does like to use OTR 17:25:24 OTR? 17:25:26 and it was also mentioned on the Orca mailing list 17:25:32 off-the-record chat plugin 17:25:35 ;) 17:26:21 anyhoo, I had nothing (constructive) to add to the discussion. hence I did not. 17:26:24 Well, I plan to answer his last question soon-ish: Given the code that Joanie has now (again?) formally put forward for tracking the mouse via AT-SPI, what is the likelihood that this functionality will make into GNOME Shell Magnifier for 3.6? 17:26:25 but I did see the emial. 17:26:34 oh and that 17:26:38 I didn't put it forward 17:26:43 I provided a hack workaround 17:26:52 and stated that this was not my problem 17:26:56 I know. I found the question kind of confusing. 17:27:10 I found his wording somewhat provocative 17:27:18 since it doesn't track the mouse. 17:27:33 well, that is just (I assume) a mistype 17:27:38 or he really is clueless 17:27:48 but I put forward nothing 17:28:02 be it real or imaginary (mouse tracking) 17:28:03 ;) 17:28:27 anyway, I have been focusing (pun intended) on webkitgtk a11y 17:28:42 and figured I'd leave Peter to you clown 17:28:43 :) 17:28:52 my answer in brief is: the proof-of-concept code has been put forward as a stopgap, and cannot be used for GNOME Shell. The other bug is a port of parts of this POF to a device that does operate within GS. 17:29:38 "The other bug" = See the work on the gs-bug (I forget the number) . That work is a port ... 17:30:06 well, almost 30 minutes of misc time, so if you don't mind I will close the meeting 17:30:14 you can continue on the #a11y channel 17:30:24 okay 17:30:24 if you have more peter-korn stuff to talk about 17:30:29 thanks people 17:30:32 #endmeeting