Attachment '20120719_log.txt'
Download 1 16:20:19 <joanie> #startmeeting
2 16:20:19 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul 19 16:20:19 2012 CET. The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3 16:20:19 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
4 16:20:30 <joanie> #topic Impromptu meeting is impromptu
5 16:20:58 <joanie> #info Joanie is in Spain, Piñeiro is giving an off-site presentation. Both seem to have spaced out today's meeting.
6 16:21:14 <joanie> #info But there was interest in having a meeting anyway. :)
7 16:21:22 <joanie> #topic Q2 Reports Due
8 16:21:47 <joanie> #info Q2 reports are due, we have been giving the first reminder from Andre. Thanks to those who have provided their report info.
9 16:22:05 <joanie> #action Joanie and Piñeiro will add their stuff and then write the summary.
10 16:22:25 <joanie> #topic Reminder: Sign up for the GUADEC A11yCamp
11 16:22:48 <joanie> #info We are having a two-day Unconference (with a wee bit of structure to accomodate schedules)
12 16:23:19 <joanie> #info We are planning to also be in IRC. If people are interested and able to participate remotely, they should sign up and indicate this.
13 16:23:39 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/BoFs/A11yCamp2012
14 16:23:46 <joanie> questions about the A11yCamp?
15 16:23:52 <clown> yes.
16 16:24:12 <clown> when are you starting and finishing on a given day?
17 16:24:20 <jjmarin> #info it seems the call I made in the marketing list for a marketing session in the a11camp hasn't been very successful :-/
18 16:24:22 <clown> I'm going to attend remotely, but I'm 5 hours later.
19 16:24:28 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/GUADEC/2012/BOFs
20 16:24:38 <joanie> clown: only 5?
21 16:24:42 <joanie> where are you?
22 16:24:54 <clown> central european, right? Madrid time?
23 16:24:58 <joanie> right
24 16:25:05 <joanie> 6 hour diff with eastern time
25 16:25:16 <joanie> it's 16:25 here
26 16:25:41 <clown> it's 10:25am here.
27 16:25:49 <clown> okay, that's 6 hours (even worse).
28 16:25:50 <joanie> 6 hour diff
29 16:26:24 <clown> I have a teleconference on the Mon morning, so I'm not free until noon (= 6pm Bof time)
30 16:26:33 <clown> that's not a smiley
31 16:26:35 * joanie nods
32 16:26:38 <clown> = 6pm bof time
33 16:26:54 <joanie> what I was thinking is that the second day would be team stuff
34 16:26:59 <clown> will it still be going?
35 16:27:19 <clown> will it still be going at 6pm?
36 16:27:26 <joanie> #info Joanie is tentatively thinking that 30 July will be more cross team focused
37 16:27:38 <joanie> #info and that 31 July will be more team-specific
38 16:27:40 <clown> and I have related info.
39 16:27:49 <joanie> #info As shown on the BoF schedule page
40 16:28:10 <joanie> #info the days start at 10:00 (CET) and end it 19:00
41 16:28:14 <joanie> s/it/at/
42 16:28:30 <joanie> so clown if you are around more on Tuesday that might work better
43 16:28:33 * clown d'oh!
44 16:29:00 <jjmarin> and we have to take into account how we can help other attenders, like andre or adam for example
45 16:29:09 <joanie> the reason for doing this split is that the people from other teams and communities are available on the 30th but not the 31st
46 16:29:20 <clown> understood
47 16:29:43 <joanie> #action Joanie will be adding some of these details to the A11yCamp page over the weekend
48 16:30:02 <jjmarin> it makes sense :-)
49 16:30:22 <joanie> so.... other questions about a11ycamp?
50 16:30:36 <clown> just some info.
51 16:30:53 <joanie> ?
52 16:31:16 <clown> Meg Ford emailed me saying that jjmarin asked her to post something to the a11y list about high contrast themes, and how they intersect with the magnfier.
53 16:31:31 <clown> she is going to be discussing this at the BoF on the Mon.
54 16:31:53 <joanie> is she?
55 16:32:05 <clown> but, she didn't know what to post to the a11y list, and was asking me if I knew anything about this.
56 16:32:13 <clown> I told her it was news to me.
57 16:32:16 * joanie looks at jjmarin
58 16:32:19 * clown looks up email.
59 16:32:19 <joanie> :)
60 16:32:40 <jjmarin> I ask in the design the plans for new icons
61 16:32:56 <jjmarin> in the design irc channel
62 16:32:57 <clown> Meg wrote: "Is this something we can discuss during A11y camp? Are you planning to attend remotely?"
63 16:33:36 <clown> and, "I'm going to discuss the issue with Cosimo during the UX Hackfest, which API is also attending, so if there are potential dependencies between the HC and the magnifier I'll get some clarification for you at that time."
64 16:33:56 <jjmarin> she replied and she said was going to write to the a11y list to inform us about this
65 16:34:38 <jjmarin> and she mentioned she was trying to contact clown as well
66 16:34:39 <joanie> so this looks to me like a "session proposal"
67 16:34:59 <joanie> it would be nice if it were added by people who were aware of it. ;)
68 16:35:03 <clown> She sent me another email this morning saying that Cosimo has heard that, .. let me quote that too.
69 16:35:18 <clown> Cosimo wrote: "I think the long-term plan for the HighContrast stuff is to move
70 16:35:18 <clown> color/contrast control completely as a global compositor effect [1] and
71 16:35:18 <clown> just ship a single HC theme variation (or ship two variations, HC and
72 16:35:18 <clown> HCI and let the compositor effects do the rest)."
73 16:35:53 <clown> The reference to [1] is my Lightness, Contrast, and Brightness 3.5 features wiki page.
74 16:36:33 <clown> and, I won't be there until 6pm.
75 16:36:56 <joanie> so maybe it shouldn't happen on Monday
76 16:37:15 <clown> But she can't attend on Tue.
77 16:37:22 * clown *sigh*
78 16:37:22 <joanie> aha
79 16:37:28 <joanie> so what should we do?
80 16:37:44 <clown> when is the UX hack fest again?
81 16:37:55 <joanie> 24th and 25th
82 16:38:42 <clown> will there be an a11y-meeting next week (26th)?
83 16:38:52 <joanie> first day of GUADEC
84 16:39:13 <joanie> API, jjmarin, jhernandez, and I will be at GUADEC
85 16:39:26 <jjmarin> I think it can be difficult for the people who are in the GUADEC
86 16:39:43 <clown> well, the discussion can start at th UX hack fest. API will be there at least.
87 16:40:12 * joanie nods
88 16:40:55 * clown thinks
89 16:42:12 <clown> when she sends something to the a11y list, then it can be discussed there and in IRC, assuming she sends it before next tue.
90 16:43:47 <joanie> so is that the conclusion?
91 16:43:56 <joanie> in which case, as API says, pretty info's please
92 16:43:57 <joanie> :)
93 16:44:15 <clown> okay. (do they have to be pretty?)
94 16:44:25 <joanie> heh
95 16:44:26 <jjmarin> Reading her reply, I think she wants to comment after the UX
96 16:44:56 <jjmarin> hackfest
97 16:44:59 <jjmarin> to the a11y list
98 16:45:18 <clown> #info Meg Ford plans to discuss her and Cosmo's work on high contrast themes and how they integrate with the magnifier colour effects at the GUADEC a11y BOF.
99 16:45:47 <clown> #info She also plans to discuss this at the UX hackfest next week.
100 16:46:12 <clown> #info she is going to email information about the issue(s) to the a11y list. Unsure when.
101 16:46:30 <clown> what else?
102 16:46:36 <joanie> dunno
103 16:46:40 <joanie> this is all news to me
104 16:46:49 <joanie> so I don't really have thoughts on it
105 16:46:59 <clown> yeah, and just day-old news to me.
106 16:47:28 <clown> #info some of this is discussed in bugzilla 655873
107 16:47:33 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
108 16:47:39 <clown> gah1
109 16:47:49 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655873
110 16:47:49 <tota11y> 04Bug 655873: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-themes-standard-maint, RESOLVED OBSOLETE, High Contrast and High Contrast Inverse Bugs
111 16:48:02 <clown> done
112 16:48:09 <joanie> thanks clown
113 16:48:12 <joanie> anything else on this topic?
114 16:48:13 <clown> wlcm
115 16:48:56 <joanie> going once....
116 16:49:00 <joanie> going twice....
117 16:49:12 <joanie> #topic Planning how to use the FoG funds
118 16:49:47 <joanie> #info Joanie just created a page on which we can list and flesh out possible projects
119 16:49:52 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AfterTheFoG
120 16:50:15 <joanie> #info Team members with ideas/proposals should add them to this page.
121 16:50:25 <joanie> #info They don't (yet) have to be "pretty".
122 16:50:43 <joanie> #info Once we as a team have agreed on the candidates, we can pretty the language up.
123 16:51:09 <joanie> #info As a reminder, funding from the FoG is $20,000
124 16:51:17 <joanie> #info ($20,000 total)
125 16:51:49 <joanie> #info Thus we either have a bunch of tiny projects/bounties or we have one big one (or maybe 2 medium, underfunded ones ;) )
126 16:52:00 <joanie> other thoughts on this matter?
127 16:53:15 <jjmarin> underfunded sounds like very real option :-)
128 16:53:31 <joanie> $20,000 is pocket change I'm afraid
129 16:55:32 <joanie> other thoughts/comments/questions?
130 16:57:21 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.6
131 16:57:32 <joanie> I don't have anything to add here
132 16:57:39 * joanie opens the floor to others
133 16:57:55 <clown> I have two things here...
134 16:58:27 <clown> #info The control center UI for the inversion, brightness, and contrast effects has a blocker bug.
135 16:58:54 <clown> #info the view is that the colour effects should apply to the whole screen, not just the zoom 'window'.
136 16:59:21 <clown> #info the blocker bug is to re-factor the magnifier code to make this possible.
137 16:59:22 <joanie> as the only option??
138 16:59:28 <clown> hang on...
139 16:59:29 <joanie> or as an option?
140 16:59:42 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676814
141 16:59:42 <tota11y> 04Bug 676814: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, make 'zoom' independent of color-related shader use
142 17:00:23 <clown> #info, Joseph has argued that this is not necessarily the correct approach, and represents another delay in terms of giving users easy access to the effects.
143 17:01:05 <clown> #info Joseph has proposed to leave the re-factoring to later, and to add the UI to current zoom options dialog.
144 17:01:28 <clown> #info MClassen replied: "Sure, I agree that having some form of control for this is a good first step."
145 17:02:00 <clown> #info Joseph proposed that the longer term goal is to leave this up to the user — whether they want "whole screen" vs. "just in the magnifeir window".
146 17:02:23 <clown> #info question remains: who is doing the 'minimal' UI, and should this still be a blocker?
147 17:02:38 <clown> done for that one.
148 17:02:47 <clown> does it answer your question, joanie?
149 17:02:51 <joanie> so what happens if you are not using full screen mag?
150 17:03:00 <joanie> and want the left half "natural"
151 17:03:07 <joanie> and the right half magnified and reverse contrast
152 17:03:12 <joanie> ?
153 17:03:23 <clown> the minimal UI I proposed means that the effects are confined to the zoom region.
154 17:03:32 <joanie> right
155 17:03:37 <joanie> but not what mclasen wants
156 17:03:48 <clown> so, yes, left hand "natural", and right zoomed/inversed.
157 17:04:29 <clown> right, in the long run, he wants to make is a "Display" preference, and not a "Zoom" preference, in terms of the UAP.
158 17:05:15 <joanie> what happens to people who need the situation I described?
159 17:05:27 * jjmarin wonders what UAP is :-/
160 17:05:37 <clown> well, I proposed that we add another option: let the user decide where the effects occur.
161 17:05:45 * joanie nods
162 17:05:59 <clown> allow users to choose whether they want it whole screen vs. in the "lens".
163 17:06:05 * joanie nods
164 17:06:08 <joanie> I think that's important
165 17:06:22 <clown> jjmarin, the UAP is the Universal Access Panel in the GNOME control center.
166 17:06:30 <jjmarin> thanks !
167 17:06:34 <jhernandez> jjmarin: universal access panel
168 17:06:38 <clown> joanie, feel free to comment on the bug.
169 17:06:44 <joanie> ;)
170 17:07:03 <clown> you know, I think this is related to meg's issue about how hc themes integrate with the magnfier colour effects.
171 17:07:19 <clown> maybe.
172 17:08:07 <jjmarin> I think they must be stay as separated things IMHO
173 17:09:03 <clown> jjmarin, I meant that maybe the design team is thinking: let's make the mag colour effects full screen, and then *something follows about HC themes, but I don't know what exactly*.
174 17:09:41 <clown> but, point taken.
175 17:10:36 <clown> any other questions about this?
176 17:10:42 <joanie> not from me
177 17:10:46 <joanie> I'm commenting on the bug
178 17:10:54 <clown> :-)
179 17:12:39 <clown> well, my next sub-topic is focus tracker, when people are ready...
180 17:12:45 <joanie> go for it
181 17:13:05 <clown> #info Joseph fixed some more issues on his focus tracker during the past week.
182 17:13:43 <clown> #info but, ran into some unfathomable (for him) problems in calling Atpsi from JavaScript.
183 17:13:56 <clown> #info Joseph posted a call for help to the a11y list.
184 17:14:23 <clown> #info numerous peopler replied (API, alieva, mgorse)
185 17:14:39 <clown> you guys rock!
186 17:15:08 <clown> #action Joseph is preparing a patch fot gnome-shell that uses the focus tracker code so he can upload it to the bugzilla
187 17:15:29 <jjmarin> +1
188 17:15:41 <clown> #action Joseph will contact Alieva and mgorse when that is done so that we can work togther to fix things.
189 17:15:52 <clown> questions?
190 17:16:45 <joanie> I'm finishing my comment (rereading it)
191 17:16:49 <joanie> so if no one else has any
192 17:16:59 <joanie> we can go to jjmarin for marketing report
193 17:17:05 <joanie> and I can finish this comment for clown
194 17:17:26 <jjmarin> #info The FoG a11y counter is US $19,010, only US $990 to go, and it's some days old. I guess we have our goal around the GUADEC days
195 17:17:29 <joanie> wait
196 17:17:31 <joanie> please
197 17:17:36 <jjmarin> sorry !
198 17:17:43 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
199 17:17:45 <joanie> :)
200 17:17:47 <jjmarin> now !
201 17:17:48 <joanie> go for it
202 17:18:03 <jjmarin> #info The FoG a11y counter is US $19,010, only US $990 to go, and it's some days old. I guess we'll have our goal around the GUADEC days
203 17:18:13 * clown there's an echo...
204 17:18:37 <jjmarin> #info I've got not reply yet about OFL FLOSS booth, so I think we don't have other associations interested yet. More and more it sounds like a dead idea to me
205 17:18:44 <jjmarin> no echo here :-)
206 17:19:02 <clown> ;-)
207 17:19:02 <jjmarin> #info An article about GNOME accessibility will be published in the Linux foundation page.
208 17:19:17 <jjmarin> and I think is all
209 17:19:29 <jjmarin> questions ?
210 17:19:57 <joanie> not from me
211 17:20:01 <joanie> (comment finished)
212 17:20:04 <mgorse> I think the OLF thread raises some questions (ie, how best to provide conference attendees with what they need, as far as a11y questions are concerned, if we aren't able to fly someone out to every conference where such a question might come up), but probably that's a long topic
213 17:20:38 <mgorse> ie, I don't think it's necessarily practical to fly someone from the a11y team out to every regional Linux conference that comes up. Probably there are a lot of them
214 17:20:48 <jjmarin> it reminds me https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/MarketingForDevelopersAndDesigners
215 17:21:19 <jjmarin> We need more 101 material about accessibility
216 17:21:55 * joanie nods
217 17:22:11 <joanie> that might be something discussing and planning on day 2 of a11ycamp
218 17:22:20 <joanie> updated info for conference folks
219 17:22:30 <joanie> updated smoke testing
220 17:22:58 <joanie> we won't solve it all during a11ycamp
221 17:23:04 <mgorse> yeah
222 17:23:10 <joanie> but we can perhaps spend time on an outline
223 17:23:22 <joanie> call for volunteers for portions to be written
224 17:23:37 <joanie> or even have a "slam out content" session
225 17:24:02 <joanie> or even an assessment of what we already have
226 17:24:21 <joanie> there are bits and pieces we (and former team members) have laying around
227 17:24:25 <mgorse> I think it would be useful to see if Bryen could be part of that discussion, since he has been to quite a few conferences and should have a good idea of what kind of questions/issues come up
228 17:24:35 * joanie nods
229 17:25:19 <joanie> other topics in this area?
230 17:25:49 <joanie> if not....
231 17:26:06 <joanie> #topic When is the next meeting?
232 17:26:32 <joanie> #info Next Thursday is GUADEC
233 17:26:33 <clown> the Tue BOF sessions could count as one.
234 17:26:40 <clown> "session"
235 17:27:09 <joanie> #info The following week we are having the A11yCamp (and could have a meeting "session").
236 17:27:27 <joanie> #info If we do that "session", do we also want to have the Thursday meeting?
237 17:27:45 <clown> play it by ear?
238 17:27:49 <joanie> #info In addition, there is an on-site WebKitGtk three-day training at Igalia.
239 17:27:54 * clown another "ear" idiom.
240 17:28:05 <jjmarin> :-)
241 17:28:08 <joanie> #info Joanie will definitely not be able to be at a Thursday meeting. She is not sure about API.
242 17:28:17 <joanie> so what do people want to do?
243 17:28:25 <joanie> (and info as appropriate please)
244 17:28:36 <jjmarin> I won't be able to attend neither
245 17:29:24 <jhernandez> the same
246 17:29:39 <jjmarin> we are talking about having a meeting 5th august ?
247 17:30:08 <clown> good question.
248 17:30:09 <jjmarin> sorry, 2nd august, right =
249 17:30:28 * joanie nods
250 17:30:35 <joanie> I won't be there
251 17:30:40 <joanie> dunno about API
252 17:30:52 <clown> I'm available
253 17:30:54 <joanie> I want to be at this training for a11y hacking
254 17:31:10 <jhernandez> btw, we can do a "light" meeting
255 17:31:24 <jhernandez> clown: ^^
256 17:31:26 <clown> surely an inverted light meeting.
257 17:31:36 <jjmarin> lol
258 17:31:40 <joanie> only if it applies to the whole thing
259 17:31:41 <jhernandez> xD
260 17:31:48 <clown> LOL
261 17:32:07 <joanie> okay so....
262 17:32:29 <joanie> #info Team consensus seems to be have a meeting on 2 August, but it might be a "light" agenda
263 17:32:47 <clown> and light attendance...
264 17:32:48 <jhernandez> xDD
265 17:33:23 <joanie> so anything else on this front?
266 17:34:01 <clown> actually, I'm on vacation for aug 9 and 16 (the next two thurdays).
267 17:34:04 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
268 17:34:10 <joanie> floor is yours
269 17:34:26 * joanie climbs the wall
270 17:34:37 * clown joanie is a spider.
271 17:34:44 <joanie> yuck
272 17:35:11 <jjmarin> joanies has recovered from the travel and she has her superpowers again :-)
273 17:35:23 <clown> only thing that kind of nags me is we started a what's missing in gnome 3 re: a11y, but that seems to have puttered out.
274 17:35:49 * clown tries to recall the url.
275 17:36:17 <jhernandez> joanie: today we published the GUADEC-ES programme
276 17:36:21 <jhernandez> JFYI
277 17:36:28 <joanie> jhernandez: yay
278 17:36:30 * joanie looks for it
279 17:36:36 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features
280 17:37:05 <jhernandez> https://www.gpul.org/indico/conferenceTimeTable.py?confId=5#all
281 17:38:10 <jjmarin> But to be cautious we have, the dark power strong is :-9
282 17:38:22 <joanie> ?
283 17:38:22 <jjmarin> ;-)
284 17:38:53 <clown> ??
285 17:39:33 <jjmarin> star wars ?
286 17:39:42 <clown> the dark side of the force?
287 17:39:46 <clown> ah,
288 17:40:19 <jjmarin> well, I think my imitation of yoda in English sucks :-)
289 17:41:16 <jhernandez> jjmarin: seems that I was the only who caught it! :P
290 17:41:35 <jjmarin> :-)
291 17:41:36 <joanie> jhernandez: So it looks like no critical conflicts
292 17:41:37 <clown> "but be cautious, we must; strong is the dark side".
293 17:41:47 <clown> maybe?
294 17:41:50 <jhernandez> joanie: yup
295 17:41:52 <joanie> strong is the dark coffee
296 17:41:53 <jjmarin> yes !
297 17:41:58 <clown> indeed.
298 17:41:59 <jhernandez> I can combine the two events
299 17:42:01 <jjmarin> exactly !
300 17:42:04 * joanie nods
301 17:42:13 <joanie> thanks
302 17:42:21 <joanie> okay so other stuff?
303 17:42:33 <joanie> clown: thoughts on the missing features?
304 17:42:47 * jhernandez needs a siesta ...
305 17:42:48 <clown> well, what next? Or is it "done".
306 17:42:49 <jhernandez> :
307 17:42:52 <jhernandez> :]
308 17:42:54 <jjmarin> me too !
309 17:42:57 <clown> zzzzzz
310 17:43:02 <joanie> clown: not entirely sure
311 17:43:05 <jjmarin> zzzzZZZZZZZ
312 17:43:30 * clown nudges jjmarin
313 17:43:38 <jjmarin> :-)
314 17:43:45 <joanie> I think that features were removed as a "feature"
315 17:43:46 <joanie> ;)
316 17:44:04 <clown> too tired for self-referential.
317 17:44:07 <joanie> API just walked in the door
318 17:44:10 * clown parsing....
319 17:44:14 <joanie> I'd like his opinion on this
320 17:44:18 <clown> got it!
321 17:44:28 <joanie> but what I mean is the "new design" resulted in the removal
322 17:44:29 * jjmarin hides, the boss is here
323 17:44:49 <joanie> so we probably have to get design team blessing
324 17:44:55 <clown> no he isn't. at lest not if "here" is #a11y-meeting
325 17:44:57 <joanie> and a design-driven reimplementation
326 17:45:04 <joanie> here is Igalia
327 17:45:22 <clown> well, I'm not there.
328 17:45:33 * joanie is hallucinating clowns
329 17:45:35 <joanie> ;)
330 17:45:45 <joanie> well, he's getting settled and such
331 17:45:48 <joanie> Spanish work day ;)
332 17:45:48 * clown wonders what they look like.
333 17:45:56 <joanie> remarkably like you
334 17:46:06 <clown> how apropos!
335 17:46:12 <joanie> sooooo....
336 17:46:18 <joanie> not sure if we should just wait
337 17:46:22 <joanie> or close the meeting
338 17:46:26 <joanie> annnnnnd he's back
339 17:46:40 <clown> well, one thought on that missing page would be to associate the screen shots with the bullets.
340 17:46:58 <clown> a job for jjmarin
341 17:47:00 * clown hides.
342 17:47:02 <joanie> :)
343 17:47:32 <jjmarin> I can put the bullets :-)
344 17:47:47 * clown unhides
345 17:47:47 * joanie waits for API
346 17:47:50 <joanie> ok
347 17:47:53 <joanie> hey API
348 17:47:57 * API getting down from the car
349 17:48:00 <clown> hi API
350 17:48:10 <joanie> so misc time included clown bringing up the "missing features" stuff
351 17:48:12 <clown> is the car on the ceiling with joanie?
352 17:48:21 <joanie> and that we kinda let that stagnate
353 17:48:27 <joanie> and what the next steps might be
354 17:48:33 <API> sorry, I made a trip to Santiago C this morning to give a presentation about a11y and GNOME, and it was longer that I planned (other presos were also interesting)
355 17:48:46 <API> you are still on misc time?
356 17:48:52 <joanie> API
357 17:48:56 <clown> no, we are on topic #1
358 17:48:57 <joanie> meeting started late
359 17:48:58 <joanie> but yes
360 17:48:58 <clown> not
361 17:49:02 <joanie> clown: behave
362 17:49:06 <jjmarin> lol
363 17:49:21 <joanie> so API what do you think we should do?
364 17:49:31 <joanie> about missing features; not miscellanea
365 17:49:47 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features, API
366 17:49:55 <API> joanie, what we should do about ?...
367 17:49:59 * API looking
368 17:50:48 <API> well, about sticky keys
369 17:50:55 <API> bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647711
370 17:51:00 <API> as next week is UX hackfest
371 17:51:08 <API> my idea was propose Allan Day to talk about that
372 17:51:18 <API> he is already on the bugzilla
373 17:51:23 <API> I mean that he added comments there
374 17:51:37 <API> about What I am extremly missing
375 17:51:51 <API> well, I think that our plan was create a wiki listing those missing stuff
376 17:52:15 <API> and was added just below
377 17:52:18 <jjmarin> the idea is to highlight those features that have a11y value and they aren't just stetic features
378 17:52:33 <joanie> API we have that listed on the page clown provided
379 17:52:35 <jjmarin> like pointer size, color
380 17:52:41 <API> highlight how? highlight where?
381 17:52:48 <API> please remember that I have just arrived :P
382 17:52:59 <API> well, pointer size and color
383 17:53:04 <API> what we could do on gnome2
384 17:53:08 <joanie> #chair API
385 17:53:08 <tota11y> Current chairs: API joanie
386 17:53:17 <API> now is possible to be done with gnome-tweak-tool
387 17:53:28 <API> btw2, after one of the preso at the morning
388 17:53:43 <API> I learnt that what we could do in gnome2 in relation with mouse cursor
389 17:53:44 <API> size
390 17:53:48 <API> was not enought :P
391 17:53:52 <API> anyway
392 17:54:16 <API> jjmarin, :
393 17:54:20 <API> <API> highlight how? highlight where?
394 17:54:59 <jjmarin> in the gnome 2 configuration, the pointer size is considered an appereance option
395 17:55:14 <jjmarin> the point is that it is a a11y option
396 17:55:32 <jjmarin> this way we can ask to be included in APU
397 17:56:01 <clown> you mean UAP, I think.
398 17:56:09 <jjmarin> I don't know if I explain myself good enough
399 17:56:17 <jjmarin> yes
400 17:56:23 <clown> I understand.
401 17:56:33 <API> so you mean not having that as a "advanced setting" as it is now
402 17:56:35 <API> ?
403 17:57:25 <jjmarin> at this moment, the pointer size isn't a advanced setting AFAIK
404 17:57:39 <API> hmm
405 17:57:51 <API> at gnome2 mouse pointer size was configured via a theme
406 17:57:52 <API> right?
407 17:57:56 <API> I mean,
408 17:58:09 <API> do we have at gnome2 a entry to configure the size?
409 17:58:16 <API> or that was part of the theme?
410 17:58:40 <jjmarin> Look pict 6 in https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves/GNOME2_appearance_options
411 17:58:53 <API> this one:
412 17:58:54 <API> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/7422543200_b3ee6f6ea1_z.jpg
413 17:58:55 <API> ?
414 17:59:04 <jjmarin> yes
415 17:59:22 <jjmarin> use can choos theme and size
416 17:59:39 <API> gnome-tweak-tool->theme->cursor theme
417 17:59:41 <API> hmm true
418 17:59:45 <API> there are a slide at the end
419 17:59:58 <API> that are not present at tweak tool
420 18:00:03 <API> anyway
421 18:00:07 <API> if we recover that slide
422 18:00:16 <API> is the tweak-tool the proper place to configure that?
423 18:00:58 <jjmarin> it is suppose that a11y should have a proper configuration option in the System Settings
424 18:01:11 <jjmarin> not a tweak tool
425 18:01:17 <API> jjmarin, why it should be that an a11y property
426 18:01:19 <API> ?
427 18:01:23 <jjmarin> s/a11y/a11y users/
428 18:01:26 <API> I mean that for me the proper place
429 18:01:35 <API> is at the mouse section at the settings
430 18:02:04 <jjmarin> the same way the font size is a a11y feature
431 18:02:32 <API> jjmarin, joanie is explaining to my back where to place it :P
432 18:02:41 <jjmarin> :-)
433 18:02:42 <API> just below text size at seeing page
434 18:02:50 <API> well, that also makes sense
435 18:03:01 <jjmarin> yes, this seems a good place
436 18:03:29 <jjmarin> but I think that the color of the pointer can be to some extend configurable as well
437 18:03:42 * jjmarin is guessing
438 18:03:49 <joanie> one could make a (designer) case for the fact that the color is a theme
439 18:03:54 <joanie> but the size is an a11y issue
440 18:04:46 <API> I agree with joanie
441 18:04:51 * jjmarin also wonder why the font size isn't a slide, as it was in the tweak tool
442 18:04:58 <API> because after all
443 18:05:04 <API> that cursor thing is just an image
444 18:05:18 <API> I don't see a easy way to configure the color of the cursor
445 18:05:49 <jjmarin> it's pointer theme
446 18:05:55 <API> jjmarin, my only concern is about having mouse stuff too splitted
447 18:05:59 <API> theme and color in one place
448 18:06:03 <API> size in the other
449 18:06:12 <joanie> but "mouse stuff" should be how the mouse works
450 18:06:18 <joanie> left handed, right handed
451 18:06:25 <API> anyway, I think that as far as we place all the stuff in a place tha tmakes sense and documented that would be enough
452 18:06:47 <API> I will use my personal joker: I'm not a designer or UX expert :P
453 18:06:56 <joanie> so whom must we kill to get this functionality back
454 18:06:57 <joanie> ?
455 18:07:07 <jjmarin> :-)
456 18:07:09 <API> well, as I already mentioned that UX thing
457 18:07:15 <API> I can bring that to them
458 18:07:21 <joanie> yay
459 18:07:22 <API> to ensure that dialogs are pretty and so on
460 18:07:27 <clown> suggest that we add these thoughts to the wiki page where we list the "missing features".
461 18:07:33 <API> and then we could look how that was implemented
462 18:07:39 <API> and also try to do it better that in gnome2
463 18:07:52 <API> today some people told me that in gnome2 configuring the size
464 18:07:59 <API> the cursor was not always of the same size
465 18:08:09 <API> clown, yes, makes sense
466 18:08:32 <joanie> pretty infos and actions?
467 18:08:59 <API> please could you do the info stuff as I arrived late?
468 18:09:09 <API> after that I could add my actions
469 18:10:23 <joanie> clown: infos?
470 18:10:32 * clown looking back in the log...
471 18:11:05 <clown> #info We started a "missing features" page re: a11y features that were in gnome2 but are missing from gnome3
472 18:11:22 <clown> #info we listed the missing features and added some comments.
473 18:11:51 <clown> #info jjmarin added links to screenshots of the old features settings dialogs.
474 18:12:06 <clown> (done)
475 18:12:14 <joanie> thanks!
476 18:12:16 * jjmarin thanks clown for doing the info stuff
477 18:12:32 <clown> my pleasure.
478 18:13:51 * clown almost added an action for jjmarin to associate screen shots with the bullets on the page, but decided to leave that up to him.
479 18:14:33 <API> #action will send a mail to allan day to talk on UX hackfest about
480 18:14:41 <API> #action API will send a mail to allan day to talk on UX hackfest about
481 18:14:53 <API> #action 1. sticky keys notifications
482 18:15:25 <API> #action 2. split or not zoom and brightness stuff on gnome-shell
483 18:15:49 <API> #action 3. add a mouse cursor size below font size on seeing page
484 18:16:19 <API> btw, about 2. right now I prefer joseph option
485 18:16:40 * clown gsettings set joseph true.
486 18:16:42 <API> of adding that stuff to current zoom configuration dialog
487 18:17:01 <API> and if people thinks that it is confusing to add that to zoom
488 18:17:11 <API> rename that to "image enhancer"
489 18:17:13 <API> or something like that
490 18:17:30 <clown> "screen enhancements"
491 18:17:35 <clown> or "display"
492 18:17:45 <API> btw333,
493 18:17:48 <API> clown, what means this:
494 18:17:49 <API> supports adding crosshairs for enhancing mouse position
495 18:17:49 <API> ?
496 18:17:55 <API> from https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features
497 18:18:03 * clown looks
498 18:18:49 <clown> my impression is that mouse theme and size is a way to enhance the mouse for low vision users.
499 18:18:49 <API> clown, joanie used sign language to explain me that
500 18:19:07 <clown> given that, crosshairs is another mouse ehancement.
501 18:19:16 <clown> and, gs-mag already does crosshairs.
502 18:19:52 <API> btw333
503 18:19:56 <API> about crosshairs
504 18:19:59 <clown> I want to see the video of the joanie's sign language.
505 18:20:10 <API> today someone suggested me that it would be good to make that disappear if people are writing
506 18:20:25 <API> because it can be disturbing while writing
507 18:20:28 <joanie> yup
508 18:20:38 <API> I guess that the easiest way is add a mode
509 18:20:44 <clown> good idea. Does the insertion cursor (I-bar) disappear when typing?
510 18:20:46 <API> to just show it if someone move the mouse
511 18:20:58 <clown> the I-bar is another mouse pointer image.
512 18:20:58 <joanie> but the I-bar is different
513 18:21:21 <joanie> it's the mouse pointer off in the corner with giant cross hairs covering up text
514 18:21:30 <clown> and, on the mac, if one types, the I-bar disappears.
515 18:21:47 <clown> for the same reason — easier to see what one is typing.
516 18:22:20 <clown> I'm thinking if the I-bar disappears on gnome, then I can hook into that event, and adjust the cross hairs as appropriate.
517 18:22:35 <joanie> it does in KDE too. Not sure about GNOME (in my defense, my dog-fooding jhbuilt gnome is borked at the moment)
518 18:22:59 <clown> joanie, I'd say my jhbuild is borked about 75% of the time. I sympathise.
519 18:23:28 <joanie> clown: you're not at igalia with colleagues asking "you're not in GNOME???"
520 18:23:31 <joanie> ;)
521 18:23:32 <clown> anyhow, good idea API about the crosshairs.
522 18:23:42 <API> clown, was not my idea, Im just the messenger
523 18:23:49 <API> thanks anyway
524 18:23:57 <clown> yeah, if I were there, it would be, "you're using OS X???"
525 18:24:50 <API> don't know, was a ONCE worker after her experience using gnome2 and after seeing my preso
526 18:24:58 <API> with gnome3
527 18:25:32 <API> anyway... although the meeting started late, I guess that it become really more long than usual
528 18:25:44 <joanie> I think it was worth it
529 18:25:49 <API> yes I know
530 18:25:58 <API> just guessing if there are something more to talk about here
531 18:25:59 <clown> yes, my colleagues have all gone for lunch and abandoned me :-(
532 18:26:05 <clown> but, I'm not complaining.
533 18:26:05 <joanie> heh
534 18:27:32 <joanie> so end of meeting?
535 18:27:35 <jjmarin> API: Asking about a11y the of the new designed apps like Documents or Boxes, and how to deal with a11y in GNOME tablets can eventually be done in the UX hackfest if possible
536 18:27:47 <joanie> (or not)
537 18:27:56 <jjmarin> :-)
538 18:28:29 <API> well, it seems
539 18:28:30 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/UXACoruna2012
540 18:28:40 <API> that they will not talk abou tablets in general
541 18:28:51 <API> so not sure if it makes sense to ask about a11y on tablets
542 18:28:54 <API> anyway ok
543 18:29:08 <API> if they start to talk about tablets I could ask
544 18:29:42 <clown> #action everyone to update the 'missing features' page based on the discussion at the #a11y-meeting 19 Jul 2012.
545 18:30:04 <jjmarin> +1
546 18:31:31 <joanie> ok so I seriously need coffee and the like
547 18:31:40 <joanie> anything else for this meeting?
548 18:32:11 <clown> dark coffee drink, you must.
549 18:32:13 <joanie> silence == consent
550 18:32:15 <joanie> ha!
551 18:32:24 <joanie> #endmeeting
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