16:20:19 <joanie> #startmeeting
16:20:19 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul 19 16:20:19 2012 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:20:19 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:20:30 <joanie> #topic Impromptu meeting is impromptu
16:20:58 <joanie> #info Joanie is in Spain, Piñeiro is giving an off-site presentation. Both seem to have spaced out today's meeting.
16:21:14 <joanie> #info But there was interest in having a meeting anyway. :)
16:21:22 <joanie> #topic Q2 Reports Due
16:21:47 <joanie> #info Q2 reports are due, we have been giving the first reminder from Andre. Thanks to those who have provided their report info.
16:22:05 <joanie> #action Joanie and Piñeiro will add their stuff and then write the summary.
16:22:25 <joanie> #topic Reminder: Sign up for the GUADEC A11yCamp
16:22:48 <joanie> #info We are having a two-day Unconference (with a wee bit of structure to accomodate schedules)
16:23:19 <joanie> #info We are planning to also be in IRC. If people are interested and able to participate remotely, they should sign up and indicate this.
16:23:39 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/BoFs/A11yCamp2012
16:23:46 <joanie> questions about the A11yCamp?
16:23:52 <clown> yes.
16:24:12 <clown> when are you starting and finishing on a given day?
16:24:20 <jjmarin> #info it seems the call I made in the marketing list for a marketing session in the a11camp hasn't been very successful  :-/
16:24:22 <clown> I'm going to attend remotely, but I'm 5 hours later.
16:24:28 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/GUADEC/2012/BOFs
16:24:38 <joanie> clown: only 5?
16:24:42 <joanie> where are you?
16:24:54 <clown> central european, right?  Madrid time?
16:24:58 <joanie> right
16:25:05 <joanie> 6 hour diff with eastern time
16:25:16 <joanie> it's 16:25 here
16:25:41 <clown> it's 10:25am here.
16:25:49 <clown> okay, that's 6 hours (even worse).
16:25:50 <joanie> 6 hour diff
16:26:24 <clown> I have a teleconference on the Mon morning, so I'm not free until noon (= 6pm Bof time)
16:26:33 <clown> that's not a smiley
16:26:35 * joanie nods
16:26:38 <clown> = 6pm bof time
16:26:54 <joanie> what I was thinking is that the second day would be team stuff
16:26:59 <clown> will it still be going?
16:27:19 <clown> will it still be going at 6pm?
16:27:26 <joanie> #info Joanie is tentatively thinking that 30 July will be more cross team focused
16:27:38 <joanie> #info and that 31 July will be more team-specific
16:27:40 <clown> and I have related info.
16:27:49 <joanie> #info As shown on the BoF schedule page
16:28:10 <joanie> #info the days start at 10:00 (CET) and end it 19:00
16:28:14 <joanie> s/it/at/
16:28:30 <joanie> so clown if you are around more on Tuesday that might work better
16:28:33 * clown d'oh!
16:29:00 <jjmarin> and we have to take into account how we can help other attenders, like andre or adam for example
16:29:09 <joanie> the reason for doing this split is that the people from other teams and communities are available on the 30th but not the 31st
16:29:20 <clown> understood
16:29:43 <joanie> #action Joanie will be adding some of these details to the A11yCamp page over the weekend
16:30:02 <jjmarin> it makes sense :-)
16:30:22 <joanie> so.... other questions about a11ycamp?
16:30:36 <clown> just some info.
16:30:53 <joanie> ?
16:31:16 <clown> Meg Ford emailed me saying that jjmarin asked her to post something to the a11y list about high contrast themes, and how they intersect with the magnfier.
16:31:31 <clown> she is going to be discussing this at the BoF on the Mon.
16:31:53 <joanie> is she?
16:32:05 <clown> but, she didn't know what to post to the a11y list, and was asking me if I knew anything about this.
16:32:13 <clown> I told her it was news to me.
16:32:16 * joanie looks at jjmarin
16:32:19 * clown looks up email.
16:32:19 <joanie> :)
16:32:40 <jjmarin> I ask in the design the plans for new icons
16:32:56 <jjmarin> in the design irc channel
16:32:57 <clown> Meg wrote:  "Is this something we can discuss during A11y camp? Are you planning to attend remotely?"
16:33:36 <clown> and, "I'm going to discuss the issue with Cosimo during the UX Hackfest, which API is also attending, so if there are potential dependencies between the HC and the magnifier I'll get some clarification for you at that time."
16:33:56 <jjmarin> she replied and she said was going to write to the a11y list to inform us about this
16:34:38 <jjmarin> and she mentioned she was trying to contact clown as well
16:34:39 <joanie> so this looks to me like a "session proposal"
16:34:59 <joanie> it would be nice if it were added by people who were aware of it. ;)
16:35:03 <clown> She sent me another email this morning saying that Cosimo has heard that, .. let me quote that too.
16:35:18 <clown> Cosimo wrote:  "I think the long-term plan for the HighContrast stuff is to move
16:35:18 <clown> color/contrast control completely as a global compositor effect [1] and
16:35:18 <clown> just ship a single HC theme variation (or ship two variations, HC and
16:35:18 <clown> HCI and let the compositor effects do the rest)."
16:35:53 <clown> The reference to [1] is my Lightness, Contrast, and Brightness 3.5 features wiki page.
16:36:33 <clown> and, I won't be there until 6pm.
16:36:56 <joanie> so maybe it shouldn't happen on Monday
16:37:15 <clown> But she can't attend on Tue.
16:37:22 * clown *sigh*
16:37:22 <joanie> aha
16:37:28 <joanie> so what should we do?
16:37:44 <clown> when is the UX hack fest again?
16:37:55 <joanie> 24th and 25th
16:38:42 <clown> will there be an a11y-meeting next week (26th)?
16:38:52 <joanie> first day of GUADEC
16:39:13 <joanie> API, jjmarin, jhernandez, and I will be at GUADEC
16:39:26 <jjmarin> I think it can be difficult for the people who are in the GUADEC
16:39:43 <clown> well, the discussion can start at th UX hack fest.  API will be there at least.
16:40:12 * joanie nods
16:40:55 * clown thinks
16:42:12 <clown> when she sends something to the a11y list, then it can be discussed there and in IRC, assuming she sends it before next tue.
16:43:47 <joanie> so is that the conclusion?
16:43:56 <joanie> in which case, as API says, pretty info's please
16:43:57 <joanie> :)
16:44:15 <clown> okay.  (do they have to be pretty?)
16:44:25 <joanie> heh
16:44:26 <jjmarin> Reading her reply, I think she wants to comment after the UX
16:44:56 <jjmarin> hackfest
16:44:59 <jjmarin> to the a11y list
16:45:18 <clown> #info  Meg Ford plans to discuss her and Cosmo's work on high contrast themes and how they integrate with the magnifier colour effects at the GUADEC a11y BOF.
16:45:47 <clown> #info She also plans to discuss this at the UX hackfest next week.
16:46:12 <clown> #info she is going to email information about the issue(s) to the a11y list.  Unsure when.
16:46:30 <clown> what else?
16:46:36 <joanie> dunno
16:46:40 <joanie> this is all news to me
16:46:49 <joanie> so I don't really have thoughts on it
16:46:59 <clown> yeah, and just day-old news to me.
16:47:28 <clown> #info some of this is discussed in bugzilla 655873
16:47:33 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
16:47:39 <clown> gah1
16:47:49 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655873
16:47:49 <tota11y> 04Bug 655873: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-themes-standard-maint, RESOLVED OBSOLETE, High Contrast and High Contrast Inverse Bugs
16:48:02 <clown> done
16:48:09 <joanie> thanks clown
16:48:12 <joanie> anything else on this topic?
16:48:13 <clown> wlcm
16:48:56 <joanie> going once....
16:49:00 <joanie> going twice....
16:49:12 <joanie> #topic Planning how to use the FoG funds
16:49:47 <joanie> #info Joanie just created a page on which we can list and flesh out possible projects
16:49:52 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AfterTheFoG
16:50:15 <joanie> #info Team members with ideas/proposals should add them to this page.
16:50:25 <joanie> #info They don't (yet) have to be "pretty".
16:50:43 <joanie> #info Once we as a team have agreed on the candidates, we can pretty the language up.
16:51:09 <joanie> #info As a reminder, funding from the FoG is $20,000
16:51:17 <joanie> #info ($20,000 total)
16:51:49 <joanie> #info Thus we either have a bunch of tiny projects/bounties or we have one big one (or maybe 2 medium, underfunded ones ;) )
16:52:00 <joanie> other thoughts on this matter?
16:53:15 <jjmarin> underfunded sounds like very real option :-)
16:53:31 <joanie> $20,000 is pocket change I'm afraid
16:55:32 <joanie> other thoughts/comments/questions?
16:57:21 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.6
16:57:32 <joanie> I don't have anything to add here
16:57:39 * joanie opens the floor to others
16:57:55 <clown> I have two things here...
16:58:27 <clown> #info The control center UI for the inversion, brightness, and contrast effects has a blocker bug.
16:58:54 <clown> #info the view is that the colour effects should apply to the whole screen, not just the zoom 'window'.
16:59:21 <clown> #info the blocker bug is to re-factor the magnifier code to make this possible.
16:59:22 <joanie> as the only option??
16:59:28 <clown> hang on...
16:59:29 <joanie> or as an option?
16:59:42 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676814
16:59:42 <tota11y> 04Bug 676814: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, make 'zoom' independent of color-related shader use
17:00:23 <clown> #info,  Joseph has argued that this is not necessarily the correct approach, and represents another delay in terms of giving users easy access to the effects.
17:01:05 <clown> #info Joseph has proposed to leave the re-factoring to later, and to add the UI to current zoom options dialog.
17:01:28 <clown> #info  MClassen replied: "Sure, I agree that having some form of control for this is a good first step."
17:02:00 <clown> #info Joseph proposed that the longer term goal is to leave this up to the user — whether they want "whole screen" vs. "just in the magnifeir window".
17:02:23 <clown> #info question remains:  who is doing the 'minimal' UI, and should this still be a blocker?
17:02:38 <clown> done for that one.
17:02:47 <clown> does it answer your question, joanie?
17:02:51 <joanie> so what happens if you are not using full screen mag?
17:03:00 <joanie> and want the left half "natural"
17:03:07 <joanie> and the right half magnified and reverse contrast
17:03:12 <joanie> ?
17:03:23 <clown> the  minimal UI I proposed means that the effects are confined to the zoom region.
17:03:32 <joanie> right
17:03:37 <joanie> but not what mclasen wants
17:03:48 <clown> so, yes, left hand "natural", and right zoomed/inversed.
17:04:29 <clown> right, in the long run, he wants to make is a "Display" preference, and not a "Zoom" preference, in terms of the UAP.
17:05:15 <joanie> what happens to people who need the situation I described?
17:05:27 * jjmarin wonders what UAP is :-/
17:05:37 <clown> well, I proposed that we add another option:  let the user decide where the effects occur.
17:05:45 * joanie nods
17:05:59 <clown> allow users to choose whether they want it whole screen vs. in the "lens".
17:06:05 * joanie nods
17:06:08 <joanie> I think that's important
17:06:22 <clown> jjmarin, the UAP is the Universal Access Panel in the GNOME control center.
17:06:30 <jjmarin> thanks !
17:06:34 <jhernandez> jjmarin: universal access panel
17:06:38 <clown> joanie, feel free to comment on the bug.
17:06:44 <joanie> ;)
17:07:03 <clown> you know, I think this is related to meg's issue about how hc themes integrate with the magnfier colour effects.
17:07:19 <clown> maybe.
17:08:07 <jjmarin> I think they must be stay as separated things IMHO
17:09:03 <clown> jjmarin, I meant that maybe the design team is thinking:  let's make the mag colour effects full screen, and then *something follows about HC themes, but I don't know what exactly*.
17:09:41 <clown> but, point taken.
17:10:36 <clown> any other questions about this?
17:10:42 <joanie> not from me
17:10:46 <joanie> I'm commenting on the bug
17:10:54 <clown> :-)
17:12:39 <clown> well, my next sub-topic is focus tracker, when people are ready...
17:12:45 <joanie> go for it
17:13:05 <clown> #info Joseph fixed some more issues on his focus tracker during the past week.
17:13:43 <clown> #info but, ran into some unfathomable (for him) problems in calling Atpsi from JavaScript.
17:13:56 <clown> #info Joseph posted a call for help to the a11y list.
17:14:23 <clown> #info numerous peopler replied (API, alieva, mgorse)
17:14:39 <clown> you guys rock!
17:15:08 <clown> #action Joseph is preparing a patch fot gnome-shell that uses the focus tracker code so he can upload it to the bugzilla
17:15:29 <jjmarin> +1
17:15:41 <clown> #action Joseph will contact Alieva and mgorse when that is done so that we can work togther to fix things.
17:15:52 <clown> questions?
17:16:45 <joanie> I'm finishing my comment (rereading it)
17:16:49 <joanie> so if no one else has any
17:16:59 <joanie> we can go to jjmarin for marketing report
17:17:05 <joanie> and I can finish this comment for clown
17:17:26 <jjmarin> #info The FoG a11y counter is US $19,010, only US $990 to go, and it's some days old. I guess we have our goal around the GUADEC days
17:17:29 <joanie> wait
17:17:31 <joanie> please
17:17:36 <jjmarin> sorry !
17:17:43 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
17:17:45 <joanie> :)
17:17:47 <jjmarin> now !
17:17:48 <joanie> go for it
17:18:03 <jjmarin> #info The FoG a11y counter is US $19,010, only US $990 to go, and it's some days old. I guess we'll have our goal around the GUADEC days
17:18:13 * clown there's an echo...
17:18:37 <jjmarin> #info I've got not reply yet about OFL FLOSS booth, so I think we don't have other associations interested yet. More and more it sounds like a dead idea to me
17:18:44 <jjmarin> no echo here :-)
17:19:02 <clown> ;-)
17:19:02 <jjmarin> #info An article about GNOME accessibility will be published in the Linux foundation page.
17:19:17 <jjmarin> and I think is all
17:19:29 <jjmarin> questions ?
17:19:57 <joanie> not from me
17:20:01 <joanie> (comment finished)
17:20:04 <mgorse> I think the OLF thread raises some questions (ie, how best to provide conference attendees with what they need, as far as a11y questions are concerned, if we aren't able to fly someone out to every conference where such a question might come up), but probably that's a long topic
17:20:38 <mgorse> ie, I don't think it's necessarily practical to fly someone from the a11y team out to every regional Linux conference that comes up. Probably there are a lot of them
17:20:48 <jjmarin> it reminds me https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/MarketingForDevelopersAndDesigners
17:21:19 <jjmarin> We need more 101 material about accessibility
17:21:55 * joanie nods
17:22:11 <joanie> that might be something discussing and planning on day 2 of a11ycamp
17:22:20 <joanie> updated info for conference folks
17:22:30 <joanie> updated smoke testing
17:22:58 <joanie> we won't solve it all during a11ycamp
17:23:04 <mgorse> yeah
17:23:10 <joanie> but we can perhaps spend time on an outline
17:23:22 <joanie> call for volunteers for portions to be written
17:23:37 <joanie> or even have a "slam out content" session
17:24:02 <joanie> or even an assessment of what we already have
17:24:21 <joanie> there are bits and pieces we (and former team members) have laying around
17:24:25 <mgorse> I think it would be useful to see if Bryen could be part of that discussion, since he has been to quite a few conferences and should have a good idea of what kind of questions/issues come up
17:24:35 * joanie nods
17:25:19 <joanie> other topics in this area?
17:25:49 <joanie> if not....
17:26:06 <joanie> #topic When is the next meeting?
17:26:32 <joanie> #info Next Thursday is GUADEC
17:26:33 <clown> the Tue BOF sessions could count as one.
17:26:40 <clown> "session"
17:27:09 <joanie> #info The following week we are having the A11yCamp (and could have a meeting "session").
17:27:27 <joanie> #info If we do that "session", do we also want to have the Thursday meeting?
17:27:45 <clown> play it by ear?
17:27:49 <joanie> #info In addition, there is an on-site WebKitGtk three-day training at Igalia.
17:27:54 * clown another "ear" idiom.
17:28:05 <jjmarin> :-)
17:28:08 <joanie> #info Joanie will definitely not be able to be at a Thursday meeting. She is not sure about API.
17:28:17 <joanie> so what do people want to do?
17:28:25 <joanie> (and info as appropriate please)
17:28:36 <jjmarin> I won't be able to attend neither
17:29:24 <jhernandez> the same
17:29:39 <jjmarin> we are talking about having a meeting 5th august ?
17:30:08 <clown> good question.
17:30:09 <jjmarin> sorry, 2nd august, right =
17:30:28 * joanie nods
17:30:35 <joanie> I won't be there
17:30:40 <joanie> dunno about API
17:30:52 <clown> I'm available
17:30:54 <joanie> I want to be at this training for a11y hacking
17:31:10 <jhernandez> btw, we can do a "light" meeting
17:31:24 <jhernandez> clown: ^^
17:31:26 <clown> surely an inverted light meeting.
17:31:36 <jjmarin> lol
17:31:40 <joanie> only if it applies to the whole thing
17:31:41 <jhernandez> xD
17:31:48 <clown> LOL
17:32:07 <joanie> okay so....
17:32:29 <joanie> #info Team consensus seems to be have a meeting on 2 August, but it might be a "light" agenda
17:32:47 <clown> and light attendance...
17:32:48 <jhernandez> xDD
17:33:23 <joanie> so anything else on this front?
17:34:01 <clown> actually, I'm on vacation for aug 9 and 16 (the next two thurdays).
17:34:04 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
17:34:10 <joanie> floor is yours
17:34:26 * joanie climbs the wall
17:34:37 * clown joanie is a spider.
17:34:44 <joanie> yuck
17:35:11 <jjmarin> joanies has recovered from the travel and she has her superpowers again :-)
17:35:23 <clown> only thing that kind of nags me is we started a what's missing in gnome 3 re:  a11y, but that seems to have puttered out.
17:35:49 * clown tries to recall the url.
17:36:17 <jhernandez> joanie: today we published the GUADEC-ES programme
17:36:21 <jhernandez> JFYI
17:36:28 <joanie> jhernandez: yay
17:36:30 * joanie looks for it
17:36:36 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features
17:37:05 <jhernandez> https://www.gpul.org/indico/conferenceTimeTable.py?confId=5#all
17:38:10 <jjmarin> But to be cautious we have, the dark power strong is :-9
17:38:22 <joanie> ?
17:38:22 <jjmarin> ;-)
17:38:53 <clown> ??
17:39:33 <jjmarin> star wars ?
17:39:42 <clown> the dark side of the force?
17:39:46 <clown> ah,
17:40:19 <jjmarin> well, I think my imitation of yoda in English sucks :-)
17:41:16 <jhernandez> jjmarin: seems that I was the only who caught it! :P
17:41:35 <jjmarin> :-)
17:41:36 <joanie> jhernandez: So it looks like no critical conflicts
17:41:37 <clown> "but be cautious, we must; strong is the dark side".
17:41:47 <clown> maybe?
17:41:50 <jhernandez> joanie: yup
17:41:52 <joanie> strong is the dark coffee
17:41:53 <jjmarin> yes !
17:41:58 <clown> indeed.
17:41:59 <jhernandez> I can combine the two events
17:42:01 <jjmarin> exactly !
17:42:04 * joanie nods
17:42:13 <joanie> thanks
17:42:21 <joanie> okay so other stuff?
17:42:33 <joanie> clown: thoughts on the missing features?
17:42:47 * jhernandez needs a siesta ...
17:42:48 <clown> well, what next?  Or is it "done".
17:42:49 <jhernandez> :
17:42:52 <jhernandez> :]
17:42:54 <jjmarin> me too !
17:42:57 <clown> zzzzzz
17:43:02 <joanie> clown: not entirely sure
17:43:05 <jjmarin> zzzzZZZZZZZ
17:43:30 * clown nudges jjmarin
17:43:38 <jjmarin> :-)
17:43:45 <joanie> I think that features were removed as a "feature"
17:43:46 <joanie> ;)
17:44:04 <clown> too tired for self-referential.
17:44:07 <joanie> API just walked in the door
17:44:10 * clown parsing....
17:44:14 <joanie> I'd like his opinion on this
17:44:18 <clown> got it!
17:44:28 <joanie> but what I mean is the "new design" resulted in the removal
17:44:29 * jjmarin hides, the boss is here
17:44:49 <joanie> so we probably have to get design team blessing
17:44:55 <clown> no he isn't.  at lest not if "here" is #a11y-meeting
17:44:57 <joanie> and a design-driven reimplementation
17:45:04 <joanie> here is Igalia
17:45:22 <clown> well, I'm not there.
17:45:33 * joanie is hallucinating clowns
17:45:35 <joanie> ;)
17:45:45 <joanie> well, he's getting settled and such
17:45:48 <joanie> Spanish work day ;)
17:45:48 * clown wonders what they look like.
17:45:56 <joanie> remarkably like you
17:46:06 <clown> how apropos!
17:46:12 <joanie> sooooo....
17:46:18 <joanie> not sure if we should just wait
17:46:22 <joanie> or close the meeting
17:46:26 <joanie> annnnnnd he's back
17:46:40 <clown> well, one thought on that missing page would be to associate the screen shots with the bullets.
17:46:58 <clown> a job for jjmarin
17:47:00 * clown hides.
17:47:02 <joanie> :)
17:47:32 <jjmarin> I can put the bullets :-)
17:47:47 * clown unhides
17:47:47 * joanie waits for API
17:47:50 <joanie> ok
17:47:53 <joanie> hey API
17:47:57 * API getting down from the car
17:48:00 <clown> hi API
17:48:10 <joanie> so misc time included clown bringing up the "missing features" stuff
17:48:12 <clown> is the car on the ceiling with joanie?
17:48:21 <joanie> and that we kinda let that stagnate
17:48:27 <joanie> and what the next steps might be
17:48:33 <API> sorry, I made a trip to Santiago C this morning to give a presentation about a11y and GNOME, and it was longer that I planned (other presos were also interesting)
17:48:46 <API> you are still on misc time?
17:48:52 <joanie> API
17:48:56 <clown> no, we are on topic #1
17:48:57 <joanie> meeting started late
17:48:58 <joanie> but yes
17:48:58 <clown> not
17:49:02 <joanie> clown: behave
17:49:06 <jjmarin> lol
17:49:21 <joanie> so API what do you think we should do?
17:49:31 <joanie> about missing features; not miscellanea
17:49:47 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features, API
17:49:55 <API> joanie, what we should do about ?...
17:49:59 * API looking
17:50:48 <API> well, about sticky keys
17:50:55 <API> bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647711
17:51:00 <API> as next week is UX hackfest
17:51:08 <API> my idea was propose Allan Day to talk about that
17:51:18 <API> he is already on the bugzilla
17:51:23 <API> I mean that he added comments there
17:51:37 <API> about What I am extremly missing
17:51:51 <API> well, I think that our plan was create a wiki listing those missing stuff
17:52:15 <API> and was added just below
17:52:18 <jjmarin> the idea is to highlight those features that have a11y value and they aren't just stetic features
17:52:33 <joanie> API we have that listed on the page clown provided
17:52:35 <jjmarin> like pointer size, color
17:52:41 <API> highlight how? highlight where?
17:52:48 <API> please remember that I have just arrived :P
17:52:59 <API> well, pointer size and color
17:53:04 <API> what we could do on gnome2
17:53:08 <joanie> #chair API
17:53:08 <tota11y> Current chairs: API joanie
17:53:17 <API> now is possible to be done with gnome-tweak-tool
17:53:28 <API> btw2, after one of the preso at the morning
17:53:43 <API> I learnt that what we could do in gnome2 in relation with mouse cursor
17:53:44 <API> size
17:53:48 <API> was not enought :P
17:53:52 <API> anyway
17:54:16 <API> jjmarin, :
17:54:20 <API> <API> highlight how? highlight where?
17:54:59 <jjmarin> in the gnome 2 configuration, the pointer size is considered an appereance option
17:55:14 <jjmarin> the point is that it is a a11y option
17:55:32 <jjmarin> this way we can ask to be included in APU
17:56:01 <clown> you mean UAP, I think.
17:56:09 <jjmarin> I don't know if I explain myself good enough
17:56:17 <jjmarin> yes
17:56:23 <clown> I understand.
17:56:33 <API> so you mean not having that as a "advanced setting" as it is now
17:56:35 <API> ?
17:57:25 <jjmarin> at this moment, the pointer size isn't a advanced setting AFAIK
17:57:39 <API> hmm
17:57:51 <API> at gnome2 mouse pointer size was configured via a theme
17:57:52 <API> right?
17:57:56 <API> I mean,
17:58:09 <API> do we have at gnome2 a entry to configure the size?
17:58:16 <API> or that was part of the theme?
17:58:40 <jjmarin> Look pict 6 in https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves/GNOME2_appearance_options
17:58:53 <API> this one:
17:58:54 <API> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7118/7422543200_b3ee6f6ea1_z.jpg
17:58:55 <API> ?
17:59:04 <jjmarin> yes
17:59:22 <jjmarin> use can choos theme and size
17:59:39 <API> gnome-tweak-tool->theme->cursor theme
17:59:41 <API> hmm true
17:59:45 <API> there are a slide at the end
17:59:58 <API> that are not present at tweak tool
18:00:03 <API> anyway
18:00:07 <API> if we recover that slide
18:00:16 <API> is the tweak-tool the proper place to configure that?
18:00:58 <jjmarin> it is suppose that a11y should have a proper configuration option in the System Settings
18:01:11 <jjmarin> not a tweak tool
18:01:17 <API> jjmarin, why it should be that an a11y property
18:01:19 <API> ?
18:01:23 <jjmarin> s/a11y/a11y users/
18:01:26 <API> I mean that for me the proper place
18:01:35 <API> is at the mouse section at the settings
18:02:04 <jjmarin> the same way the font size is a a11y feature
18:02:32 <API> jjmarin, joanie is explaining to my back where to place it :P
18:02:41 <jjmarin> :-)
18:02:42 <API> just below text size at seeing page
18:02:50 <API> well, that also makes sense
18:03:01 <jjmarin> yes, this seems a good place
18:03:29 <jjmarin> but I think that the color of the pointer can be to some extend configurable as well
18:03:42 * jjmarin is guessing
18:03:49 <joanie> one could make a (designer) case for the fact that the color is a theme
18:03:54 <joanie> but the size is an a11y issue
18:04:46 <API> I agree with joanie
18:04:51 * jjmarin also wonder why the font size isn't a slide, as it was in the tweak tool
18:04:58 <API> because after all
18:05:04 <API> that cursor thing is just an image
18:05:18 <API> I don't see a easy way to configure the color of the cursor
18:05:49 <jjmarin> it's pointer theme
18:05:55 <API> jjmarin, my only concern is about having mouse stuff too splitted
18:05:59 <API> theme and color in one place
18:06:03 <API> size in the other
18:06:12 <joanie> but "mouse stuff" should be how the mouse works
18:06:18 <joanie> left handed, right handed
18:06:25 <API> anyway, I think that as far as we place all the stuff in a place tha tmakes sense and documented that would be enough
18:06:47 <API> I will use my personal joker: I'm not a designer or UX expert :P
18:06:56 <joanie> so whom must we kill to get this functionality back
18:06:57 <joanie> ?
18:07:07 <jjmarin> :-)
18:07:09 <API> well, as I already mentioned that UX thing
18:07:15 <API> I can bring that to them
18:07:21 <joanie> yay
18:07:22 <API> to ensure that dialogs are pretty and so on
18:07:27 <clown> suggest that we add these thoughts to the wiki page where we list the "missing features".
18:07:33 <API> and then we could look how that was implemented
18:07:39 <API> and also try to do it better that in gnome2
18:07:52 <API> today some people told me that in gnome2 configuring the size
18:07:59 <API> the cursor was not always of the same size
18:08:09 <API> clown, yes, makes sense
18:08:32 <joanie> pretty infos and actions?
18:08:59 <API> please could you do the info stuff as I arrived late?
18:09:09 <API> after that I could add my actions
18:10:23 <joanie> clown: infos?
18:10:32 * clown looking back in the log...
18:11:05 <clown> #info We started a "missing features" page re:  a11y features that were in gnome2 but are missing from gnome3
18:11:22 <clown> #info we listed the missing features and added some comments.
18:11:51 <clown> #info jjmarin added links to screenshots of the old features settings dialogs.
18:12:06 <clown> (done)
18:12:14 <joanie> thanks!
18:12:16 * jjmarin thanks clown for doing the info stuff
18:12:32 <clown> my pleasure.
18:13:51 * clown almost added an action for jjmarin to associate screen shots with the bullets on the page, but decided to leave that up to him.
18:14:33 <API> #action will send a mail to allan day to talk on UX hackfest about
18:14:41 <API> #action API will send a mail to allan day to talk on UX hackfest about
18:14:53 <API> #action 1. sticky keys notifications
18:15:25 <API> #action 2. split or not zoom and brightness stuff on gnome-shell
18:15:49 <API> #action 3. add a mouse cursor size below font size on seeing page
18:16:19 <API> btw, about 2. right now I prefer joseph option
18:16:40 * clown gsettings set joseph true.
18:16:42 <API> of adding that stuff to current zoom configuration dialog
18:17:01 <API> and if people thinks that it is confusing to add that to zoom
18:17:11 <API> rename that to "image enhancer"
18:17:13 <API> or something like that
18:17:30 <clown> "screen enhancements"
18:17:35 <clown> or "display"
18:17:45 <API> btw333,
18:17:48 <API> clown, what means this:
18:17:49 <API> supports adding crosshairs for enhancing mouse position
18:17:49 <API> ?
18:17:55 <API> from https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointSix/NiceToHaves#Missing_.28.3F.29_GNOME_2_A11y_Features
18:18:03 * clown looks
18:18:49 <clown> my impression is that mouse theme and size is a way to enhance the mouse for low vision users.
18:18:49 <API> clown, joanie used sign language to explain me that
18:19:07 <clown> given that, crosshairs is another mouse ehancement.
18:19:16 <clown> and, gs-mag already does crosshairs.
18:19:52 <API> btw333
18:19:56 <API> about crosshairs
18:19:59 <clown> I want to see the video of the joanie's sign language.
18:20:10 <API> today someone suggested me that it would be good to make that disappear if people are writing
18:20:25 <API> because it can be disturbing while writing
18:20:28 <joanie> yup
18:20:38 <API> I guess that the easiest way is add a mode
18:20:44 <clown> good idea.  Does the insertion cursor (I-bar) disappear when typing?
18:20:46 <API> to just show it if someone move the mouse
18:20:58 <clown> the I-bar is another mouse pointer image.
18:20:58 <joanie> but the I-bar is different
18:21:21 <joanie> it's the mouse pointer off in the corner with giant cross hairs covering up text
18:21:30 <clown> and, on the mac, if one types, the I-bar disappears.
18:21:47 <clown> for the same reason — easier to see what one is typing.
18:22:20 <clown> I'm thinking if the I-bar disappears on gnome, then I can hook into that event, and adjust the cross hairs as appropriate.
18:22:35 <joanie> it does in KDE too. Not sure about GNOME (in my defense, my dog-fooding jhbuilt gnome is borked at the moment)
18:22:59 <clown> joanie, I'd say my jhbuild is borked about 75% of the time.  I sympathise.
18:23:28 <joanie> clown: you're not at igalia with colleagues asking "you're not in GNOME???"
18:23:31 <joanie> ;)
18:23:32 <clown> anyhow, good idea API about the crosshairs.
18:23:42 <API> clown, was not my idea, Im just the messenger
18:23:49 <API> thanks anyway
18:23:57 <clown> yeah, if I were there, it would be, "you're using OS X???"
18:24:50 <API> don't know, was a ONCE worker after her experience using gnome2 and after seeing my preso
18:24:58 <API> with gnome3
18:25:32 <API> anyway... although the meeting started late, I guess that it become really more long than usual
18:25:44 <joanie> I think it was worth it
18:25:49 <API> yes I know
18:25:58 <API> just guessing if there are something more to talk about here
18:25:59 <clown> yes, my colleagues have all gone for lunch and abandoned me :-(
18:26:05 <clown> but, I'm not complaining.
18:26:05 <joanie> heh
18:27:32 <joanie> so end of meeting?
18:27:35 <jjmarin> API: Asking about a11y the of the new designed apps like Documents or Boxes, and how to deal with a11y in GNOME tablets can eventually be done in the UX hackfest if possible
18:27:47 <joanie> (or not)
18:27:56 <jjmarin> :-)
18:28:29 <API> well, it seems
18:28:30 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/UXACoruna2012
18:28:40 <API> that they will not talk abou tablets in general
18:28:51 <API> so not sure if it makes sense to ask about a11y on tablets
18:28:54 <API> anyway ok
18:29:08 <API> if they start to talk about tablets I could ask
18:29:42 <clown> #action everyone to update the 'missing features' page based on the discussion at the #a11y-meeting 19 Jul 2012.
18:30:04 <jjmarin> +1
18:31:31 <joanie> ok so I seriously need coffee and the like
18:31:40 <joanie> anything else for this meeting?
18:32:11 <clown> dark coffee drink, you must.
18:32:13 <joanie> silence == consent
18:32:15 <joanie> ha!
18:32:24 <joanie> #endmeeting