1 16:06:39 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:06:39 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul  5 16:06:39 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:06:39 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:51 <API> #topic Planning how to use the FoG funds
   5 16:06:58 <API> joanie, jjmarin ?
   6 16:07:03 <joanie> I'll take this
   7 16:07:48 <joanie> #info The FoG is nearly over. During the last (and Joanie's first) Foundation Board meeting, it was suggested that she would have something to present to the rest of the Board on how these funds might be applied.
   8 16:08:08 <joanie> #info Joanie has all sorts of ideas, but she is not (yet) supreme dictator of the universe. ;)
   9 16:08:28 <joanie> #info Therefore, we as a team should make a short list of priorities.
  10 16:09:00 <joanie> #info Short list because $20,000 -- while very much appreciated -- is realistically very little money and will not remotely address everything we need to do.
  11 16:09:31 <joanie> #action Joanie will create a page on the wiki where these ideas can be jotted down.
  12 16:09:45 <jjmarin> +1
  13 16:10:06 <joanie> #info Since we are having an unexpected two-day-long BoF/Camp/Whatever at GUADEC, we can also discuss these items there.
  14 16:10:37 <joanie> #info However, since not everyone will be present, Joanie feels it would be best to have as full of a list of candidate "wish list" items in advance.
  15 16:10:50 * joanie yields the floor for comment
  16 16:11:16 * jjmarin thinks it sounds very sensible
  17 16:11:23 <API> yes, thanks joanie
  18 16:11:31 <API> just guessing if we should debate about
  19 16:11:36 <API> how to use the money
  20 16:11:50 <API> in the sense of "just one project" or "several projects"
  21 16:11:50 <joanie> I think a debate might be in order
  22 16:11:57 <joanie> so first let's make a list
  23 16:12:03 <joanie> so we have something to debate
  24 16:12:04 <API> although probably thats inherent to those items
  25 16:12:04 <API> ye
  26 16:12:06 <API> s
  27 16:12:16 <joanie> I would also like the debates to happen where they are clearly documented
  28 16:12:17 <API> ok, make sense
  29 16:12:30 <joanie> so that I can present to the board "here is what we as a team think and why"
  30 16:12:37 <joanie> hold on a sec, lemme info that.
  31 16:12:50 <API> once you create the list, do you plan to announce it to gnome-accessibility list? to IRC?
  32 16:13:02 * API holding
  33 16:13:03 <joanie> #info Joanie would also like the debates to happen where they are clearly documented so that she can present to the board "Here is what we as a team think ande why."
  34 16:13:10 <clown> there was a page that had proposals/grant-applications.  I can't remember the url, though.  we could use that as a starting point.
  35 16:13:57 <API> clown, but as far as I remember those were projects bigger that 20k $
  36 16:14:04 <joanie> #action (Amended) Joanie will create a page on the wiki where these ideas can be jotted down. Having done so, she will annnounce this page on the mailing list.
  37 16:14:05 <API> although not 100% sure
  38 16:14:22 <joanie> clown: API: I'll work them in somehow
  39 16:14:28 <joanie> either start there, reference it, whatever
  40 16:14:29 <clown> API, I don't remember.  As a total?  Or each individual project?
  41 16:14:43 <clown> joanie:  sounds good.
  42 16:14:54 <joanie> there's also the possibility of those tasks being broken into smaller ones
  43 16:14:54 <API> clown, I think that individually each one was bigger, but not sure either
  44 16:14:59 * jhernandez wondering if clown is talking about https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  45 16:15:23 <clown> jhernandez:  thanks, that's close.
  46 16:15:39 <clown> but the actual grant applications aren't there; nor the budgets.
  47 16:15:47 * clown must be another related page.
  48 16:16:21 <jjmarin> I think clown is refering https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/Biddings
  49 16:16:49 <clown> yup, jjmarin.
  50 16:16:54 <clown> only two there, though
  51 16:17:07 <API> so yes, definitively I was wrong
  52 16:17:13 <API> all were smaller that 20k
  53 16:17:56 <clown> API, the performance improvements comes to a total of 25k
  54 16:18:10 <API> clown, yes but it was split in two
  55 16:18:17 <clown> although it is broken down into … right.
  56 16:18:18 <API> so each one is <20
  57 16:18:36 <clown> anyhow, probably too much detail for this meeting — we found the page.  that's enough.
  58 16:18:56 <joanie> clown: you caught API's efficiency flu. :P
  59 16:18:57 <API> yes
  60 16:18:59 <joanie> it's fatal
  61 16:19:07 <API> so, any other question, doubt?
  62 16:19:08 * clown croaks
  63 16:19:19 * joanie wonders how clown looks in all black and with a frown on his face
  64 16:19:22 * joanie hides
  65 16:19:35 * clown he looks mahvallous!
  66 16:19:41 <joanie> I'm set on this topic if everyone else is.
  67 16:19:43 <joanie> :)
  68 16:20:11 <API> ok, lets move
  69 16:20:17 <API> #topic Reminders
  70 16:20:26 <API> #info Q2 Reports due
  71 16:20:36 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q2
  72 16:20:56 <API> I think that everybody knows how that Quarterly reports works
  73 16:20:58 <API> :P
  74 16:21:00 <API> questions?
  75 16:21:03 <clown> #action Joseph will add to the a11y Q2 report page regarding progress on GNOME Shell magnifier by next meeting (Jul 12).
  76 16:22:06 <API> it seems that no
  77 16:22:09 <API> so please
  78 16:22:11 <API> as clown did
  79 16:22:25 <API> or as clown plan
  80 16:22:32 <API> update a11y Q2 report page
  81 16:22:36 <API> next reminder ...
  82 16:22:41 <clown> is Jul 12 soon enough, or do you want it sooner?
  83 16:22:45 <API> #info Sign up for the GUADEC BoF, "A11yCamp"
  84 16:22:54 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/BoFs/A11yCamp2012
  85 16:23:07 <API> questions, comments?
  86 16:23:11 <joanie> clown: that's soon enough
  87 16:23:15 <joanie> api I have a comment
  88 16:24:05 <joanie> #info As is indicated on the A11yCamp page, the event is two days long (30-31 July), but unconference style.
  89 16:24:18 <joanie> #info It is not expected for everyone (or anyone) to be there the entire time.
  90 16:24:53 <joanie> #info We will have at least IRC. We may or may not be able to pull off voice, video, etc. Joanie will look into that.
  91 16:25:19 <joanie> #info Therefore even if you know you will not be able to attend in person, Joanie would appreciate it if remote attendees could sign up as well.
  92 16:25:42 <joanie> #info That way we know how many people will be there and can include those remote people when considering when to have what discussions.
  93 16:25:45 <joanie> (done)
  94 16:26:24 <joanie> actually not done, but it's a new thread related to this.
  95 16:26:39 <joanie> jjmarin: Now is the time to promote this event.
  96 16:26:51 * jjmarin think is good idea to promote the a11ycamp is the mailing lists to invite people join us, the more people add to the participant list in advance, the better.
  97 16:26:53 <joanie> jjmarin: You are the team's Guy Who Promotes Stuff.
  98 16:27:02 <joanie> :)
  99 16:27:29 <joanie> I would like to personally reply on the BugSquad list to Andre
 100 16:27:32 <clown> the "GWPS"?
 101 16:27:34 <joanie> but all the others are yours
 102 16:27:39 <jjmarin> I think API is better to write to the d-d-l list
 103 16:27:53 <jjmarin> I never get any reply for that list :-)
 104 16:28:05 <joanie> #action Joanie will reply to Andre personally about A11yCamp.
 105 16:28:07 <API> this can be the first time ;)
 106 16:28:27 <API> anyway, this kind of announcements usually doesn't lead to replies
 107 16:28:35 <API> as they are informative
 108 16:29:10 <jjmarin> ok, then I'll write the email
 109 16:29:17 <API> jhernandez, thanks
 110 16:29:17 <API> ups
 111 16:29:18 <joanie> ai jjmarin?
 112 16:29:20 <API> jjmarin, thanks
 113 16:29:42 * API autocompletion and more that one name starting by j
 114 16:29:43 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will promote the a11ycamp in the gnome community
 115 16:29:59 <joanie> :) Thanks jjmarin
 116 16:30:19 <joanie> (I'm done w.r.t. this topic if everyone else else)
 117 16:30:25 <jjmarin> API: Do you know if Felipe will attend the a11ycamp
 118 16:30:26 * joanie fears the Man In Black
 119 16:30:42 <clown> Will Smith?
 120 16:30:50 <API> jjmarin, Felipe Erias Morandeira?
 121 16:30:58 <jjmarin> yes
 122 16:31:11 <API> don't know, but it would be good
 123 16:31:22 <jjmarin> I think he's working in orca UI and can give some clues about a11y design
 124 16:31:28 <API> ie: to talk about Orca preference ui and blah
 125 16:31:28 * joanie nods
 126 16:31:59 <joanie> I see Felipe as (hopefully) becoming our team's Design Guy.
 127 16:32:03 <joanie> as his time permits
 128 16:32:11 <API> so, more questions on the reminders topic?
 129 16:32:18 <joanie> not from me
 130 16:32:25 <API> ok, lets move then
 131 16:32:41 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6
 132 16:32:51 <API> #info About atk-bridge
 133 16:33:16 <API> #info Luke, mgorse and me were talking about the gtk3 at-spi2-atk module
 134 16:33:27 <API> #info Luke has less concerns now
 135 16:33:34 <joanie> (yay)
 136 16:33:55 <API> #info API was testing Unity with atk-bridge provided some branches
 137 16:34:31 <API> #info so next steps: kill that gtk3 module, propose those unity branches
 138 16:34:59 <API> #info that also means that current atk-bridge API is considered "final"
 139 16:35:16 <API> #info still on unstable branches, but will be as it is now for a time
 140 16:35:42 <API> #info if in the end a bridge object is exposed, the current API will not change, but some methods will be added
 141 16:35:50 <API> wow, this was longer that I planned
 142 16:35:52 <API> done
 143 16:35:59 <joanie> heh
 144 16:36:01 <API> mgorse, anything to add or to correct?
 145 16:36:05 <joanie> But a good update. Thanks!
 146 16:36:46 <mgorse> I guess this is somewhat unrelated, but there's also https://launchpad.net/bugs/1020512
 147 16:37:19 * API looking
 148 16:37:20 <mgorse> and part of the issue is that gtk+ isn't telling atk-bridge to clean up, so I need to file a bug
 149 16:37:27 * clown loading ...
 150 16:37:41 * joanie presses F5 on clown
 151 16:38:30 <API> mgorse, with a module gtk+ was properly cleaning up?
 152 16:38:56 <mgorse> no, but then the sockets used to be in /tmp/at-spi2
 153 16:39:17 * jjmarin gets the idea after reading that bug that at-spi2 is considered like a sort-of virus or something
 154 16:39:35 <mgorse> ie, bug 678348
 155 16:39:35 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678348 major, Normal, ---, mgorse, RESOLVED FIXED, Creates a potentially insecure non-randomized /tmp/at-spi2 directory to store sockets
 156 16:41:01 <API> mgorse, ah ok, but I guess that we would have that problem if we were still using the bridge as a module, right?
 157 16:41:06 <mgorse> Anyway, other than that, I don't have anything to add
 158 16:41:33 <mgorse> Yeah. It's a bit unrelated
 159 16:41:50 <API> mgorse, ok, but also something to have in mind
 160 16:41:53 <API> thanks
 161 16:42:08 <API> so, going on with the topic
 162 16:42:10 <API> GNOME 3.6
 163 16:42:29 <API> clown, we were talking about focus tracking on last meeting (or previous one I don't remember)
 164 16:42:44 <clown> yes, API
 165 16:42:47 <API> do you have now more information about if that feature will be available for 3.6?
 166 16:43:01 <API> and btw2, did you take a look to aleiva work?
 167 16:43:08 <clown> unfortunately, no.  little progress between last week and this.
 168 16:43:26 <clown> I did a cursory look at aleiva's approach.
 169 16:43:35 <clown> he is using X events.  I am using Atspi.
 170 16:44:09 <clown> my intuition says that Atspi provide more info, and better integrates with GNOME Shell, but if anyone has other ideas...
 171 16:44:19 <API> well, aleiva is not here
 172 16:44:32 <API> but it could be a good question
 173 16:44:42 <API> why he decided to use X events instead of atspi
 174 16:44:49 <clown> okay
 175 16:44:53 <API> ie: is atspi lacking something?
 176 16:45:07 <API> clown, you also said that you suffered some crashes
 177 16:45:07 <clown> it might be "performance" again.
 178 16:45:22 <jhernandez> API: clown I'll talk to aleiva about this
 179 16:45:22 <API> but you were not sure if was due your work or due gnome-shell
 180 16:45:31 <API> you know that now?
 181 16:45:34 <clown> Yes, that is the little bit of progress.  I set up a brand new  F17 system
 182 16:46:14 <clown> Usually I do the developement within a VM.  The worry being that it might be something funny in the virtual graphics drivers.
 183 16:46:24 <clown> So far, on the real machine, no crashses.
 184 16:46:33 <API> clown, ok, good
 185 16:47:02 <clown> but, for some cases, there is a noticeable delay before the callback fires.
 186 16:47:20 <clown> an example is the alt-tab to bring up the task switcher.
 187 16:47:50 <clown> It takes about 5 seconds for it to come up once I start listening for focus events.
 188 16:47:56 <joanie> clown: I think there is a general a11y issue there.
 189 16:48:13 <joanie> I don't always see it, but sometimes when I launch Orca and immediately alt+tab it's there.
 190 16:48:16 <clown> it feels like a asynchronous/synchronous issue, but I need to investigate more.
 191 16:49:05 <clown> but, stepping back, and addressing the main issue — will this be ready by 3.6.  I still can't say one way or other.
 192 16:49:24 <API> clown, ok thanks
 193 16:49:36 <API> some pretty #info please?
 194 16:49:43 <clown> okay
 195 16:50:26 <clown> #info Joseph skimmed aleiva's focus tracking approach for compiz, and noted that he is using X events, while Joseph is using Atpsi.
 196 16:50:38 <clown> #Info there is a question as to which is "better".
 197 16:50:52 <clown> whoops — does case matter on the 'info'?
 198 16:51:08 <clown> #info there is a question as to which is "better".
 199 16:51:18 * clown copy/paste is your friend.
 200 16:51:56 <clown> #info to see if the crashes are due to using a VM, Joseph set up a "real" F17 system, and the crashes have not occurred there.
 201 16:52:37 <clown> #info however, there is a noticeable time lag when listening for focus events for some UI.  Example:  the task switcher invoked from alt+tab
 202 16:52:46 <clown> #info investigation continues.
 203 16:52:59 <clown> #info unclear if this will be ready for 3.6.
 204 16:53:01 <clown> (done).
 205 16:53:08 <API> clown, ok thanks
 206 16:53:11 <clown> wlcm
 207 16:53:16 <API> less that 10 minutes to go
 208 16:53:27 <API> people, other stuff related with "GNOME 3.6" topic?
 209 16:53:36 <jjmarin> In the design front, there are new symbolic icons for apps (like libreoffice) here https://github.com/gnome-design-team/gnome-icons
 210 16:54:02 <jjmarin> though we are not validating anny of this work
 211 16:54:26 <jjmarin> it is useful for many a11y users I think
 212 16:55:37 <jjmarin> Do you think we should do anything about it ?
 213 16:55:38 <API> hmm, but do design team have a specific goal about those symbols towards GNOME 3.6?
 214 16:56:17 <jjmarin> I don't know sincerly
 215 16:56:37 <API> jjmarin, ok
 216 16:56:37 <jjmarin> I guess if there are considered finished, they will be delivered
 217 16:56:42 <API> just asking because of the topic :P
 218 16:56:50 <API> ok
 219 16:56:51 <jjmarin> it's part of a GSoC project
 220 16:56:58 <API> well, it would be good to ask them
 221 16:57:17 <API> jjmarin, for minutes sake, a #info?
 222 16:57:22 <jjmarin> ok
 223 16:57:55 <jjmarin> #info The design team is working in more symbolic icons for apps
 224 16:58:44 <jjmarin> #Info Juanjo will ask to the design team about their plan to release a new set symbolic icons for GNOME 3.6
 225 16:59:05 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will ask to the design team about their plan to release a new set symbolic icons for GNOME 3.6
 226 16:59:22 <API> ok
 227 16:59:23 <jjmarin> I think is more action than info, right ?
 228 16:59:30 <jjmarin> :-)
 229 16:59:34 <API> jjmarin, yes, it is fine
 230 16:59:43 <API> and as we are almost without time
 231 16:59:57 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 232 16:59:58 <API> jjmarin, ?
 233 17:00:37 <jjmarin> #info the FoG counter for the a11y campaing is $18,245 - only $1,755 to go
 234 17:01:12 <API> jjmarin, from last meeting, you had this ai:
 235 17:01:15 <API> Talk with Karen about companies donating to the FoG a11y campaign.
 236 17:01:18 <API> still pending?
 237 17:02:04 <jjmarin> #Info Karen re-sent some requests to some companies to fill the last mile
 238 17:02:31 <jjmarin> We don't have an answer AFAIK
 239 17:02:56 <jjmarin> no more real info
 240 17:03:27 <API> jjmarin, ok thanks
 241 17:03:31 <jjmarin> the counter is about a week old, so maybe we are only $1000 or so to go
 242 17:03:35 <jjmarin> np
 243 17:03:38 <API> anything else ont this point?
 244 17:03:57 <jjmarin> not for my part,  questions ?
 245 17:04:06 <jjmarin> s/for/from/
 246 17:04:58 <API> chan chan chaaan
 247 17:05:01 <API> or in english
 248 17:05:04 <API> dun dun dun!
 249 17:05:09 <jjmarin> Lol
 250 17:05:09 <API> well, it seems that no questions
 251 17:05:13 <API> so just in case
 252 17:05:18 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 253 17:05:28 <API> anything not scheduled to comment?
 254 17:06:32 <jjmarin> and now is when clown usually yields the floor for comment :-P
 255 17:06:43 <jhernandez> jjmarin: i was thinking the same
 256 17:06:48 * clown yields the floor for commnet
 257 17:06:52 <jhernandez> xDDDDD
 258 17:06:54 <joanie> heh
 259 17:07:06 <joanie> miscellaneous time is miscellaneous
 260 17:07:30 <jjmarin> :-)
 261 17:07:31 * jhernandez votes for doing a s/miscellaneous/clown's
 262 17:07:49 <jjmarin> hehe
 263 17:09:27 <API> ok, 5 minutes of silent misc time was enough
 264 17:09:43 <API> so, thanks everybody
 265 17:09:46 <API> #endmeeting