16:06:41 <API> #startmeeting
16:06:41 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 28 16:06:41 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:06:41 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:51 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6
16:07:19 <API> #info 3.5.3 will be the first release with the bridge as a library
16:07:35 <API> #info I sent a mail to different lists and persons warning about it
16:07:36 <clown> the ATK bridge?
16:07:59 <API> well we talked about that in previous meeting
16:08:04 <API> so background:
16:08:20 <API> initially we proposed a feature of accessibility on by default
16:08:41 <API> the implementation proposed was just set 'toolkit-accessibility' gsetting default value to true
16:08:50 <API> but that didn't convince some people
16:09:11 <API> ie: that would also activate a11y for gtk2 apps, that didn't do any work recently
16:09:14 <API> so, right now
16:09:31 <API> it was implemented by forgetting to load the atk bridge as a module
16:09:42 <API> and use the atk-bridge as a library
16:09:47 <API> and call a xx_init method
16:10:01 <API> gnome-shell and gtk3 apps seems to work fine
16:10:09 <API> lets see what happens with older apps
16:10:25 <API> well, and those infos and that explanation is what I had for this topic
16:10:27 <API> others?
16:10:30 <API> joanie, ?
16:10:42 <clown> regarding the bridge...
16:10:50 <clown> and this may be too much detail, but
16:11:13 <clown> I just updated my development machine to 3.5.3 + yesterday, and when I starte gnome shell  I get:
16:11:30 <clown> " Gtk-Message: Not loading module "atk-bridge": The functionality is provided by GTK natively. Please try to not load it."
16:11:34 <clown> Is this related?
16:11:40 <API> yes is related
16:11:52 <API> it is because the module are still listed
16:12:08 <API> and it is still listed due gtk2 apps
16:12:12 <API> hmm
16:12:18 <API> probably it would be good to talk about it
16:12:27 <mgorse> There's an open bug to remove the gtk 3 module
16:12:29 <API> as that message will appear for gnome-shell and any gtk3 app
16:12:29 <clown> It might be my focus tracking code, but I have yet to diagnose it that far.
16:12:31 <joanie> we have a bug
16:12:38 <joanie> clown: no
16:12:48 * joanie looks for bug
16:12:51 <API> mgorse, yes, but at-spi2-atk desktop file will still list the bridge as a module to be loaded
16:12:52 * clown waits
16:13:02 <API> at that it is still required due gtk2
16:13:09 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678315
16:13:09 <tota11y> 04Bug 678315: normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, Remove the bridge module for Gtk+ 3
16:13:16 <API> so that message will be there, no matters if we remove the gtk3 module
16:13:20 * clown looks
16:14:27 <API> #action API will mention that warning to bastien, matthias and others, as he thinks that it will be there for any gtk3 app, no matter if we remove or not atk-brige gtk3 module
16:14:56 <joanie> API I don't follow you?
16:15:03 <joanie> that's not a ?
16:15:27 <API> well, gtk3 tries to load modules
16:15:29 <joanie> i.e. if you delete the module the warning goes away
16:15:36 <joanie> if you apply the patch the warning goes away
16:15:58 <joanie> so what do you mean by "remove or not atk-bridge"
16:16:10 * API looking
16:16:44 <API> hmm, I thought that not
16:16:45 <joanie> part of my original concern and subsequent doubts were related to Orca users pulling at-spi2-atk but not gnome-shell, gtk3, etc.
16:17:08 <joanie> we now have a branch for at-spi2-atk
16:17:13 <joanie> mike has warned Orca users
16:17:16 <API> joanie, I think that mgorse send a mail about that
16:17:19 <joanie> yup
16:17:30 <joanie> and we now have a branch we didn't have before
16:17:56 <joanie> which might need a mail too. Just because users don't always pay attention.
16:18:15 <joanie> so I guess that's a long way of saying, I have less concerns now
16:18:19 <API> which branch?
16:18:22 <API> that python3 branch?
16:18:27 <joanie> should we commit it
16:18:29 <joanie> no
16:18:37 <joanie> at-spi2-atk for gnome-3-4
16:18:49 <joanie> that just happened yesterday I think
16:18:52 <joanie> or Tuesday
16:18:56 <joanie> days are blending
16:19:15 <API> well, but that branch is for gnome 3.4.X
16:19:25 <API> after all we are right now on the topic GNOME 3.6 :P
16:19:29 <joanie> right
16:19:35 <joanie> you missed my point
16:19:49 <joanie> Orca users who are not using GNOME 3.6 stil pull at-spi2-atk
16:20:02 <joanie> because they want features and fixes
16:20:13 <joanie> including this patch would be one more source of breakage
16:20:23 <joanie> now we have a branch we can point Orca users to
16:20:31 <joanie> suitable for GNOME 3.4
16:20:43 <joanie> if they still pull master, they suck and it's not our fault
16:20:45 <joanie> ;)
16:20:56 <API> ok
16:20:59 <joanie> therefore, I'm not so worried about my patch for bug 678315
16:20:59 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678315 normal, Normal, ---, liyuan, UNCONFIRMED, Remove the bridge module for Gtk+ 3
16:21:03 <API> so, for meeting sake
16:21:12 <joanie> so are there other concerns about that patch
16:21:20 <API> could you summarize that concerns, and an action for that mail to orca users?
16:21:28 <API> summarize == #info
16:21:38 <joanie> do we have an answer to my question?
16:21:42 <joanie> but sure
16:22:13 <joanie> #info Joanie has fewer concerns about her patch for bug 678315 now that there is a gnome-3-4 branch for at-spi2-atk
16:22:26 <joanie> #action Joanie will announce this branch to the Orca users on the Orca list
16:22:41 <joanie> #info Joanie still doesn't know if the patch is fully safe
16:22:58 <joanie> #info Joanie will not commit that patch until others of commented and answered her questions. :)
16:23:01 <joanie> done
16:23:04 <mgorse> It will probably break Unity until Unity is patched, though I'm not sure if that's something to be concerned about
16:23:12 <joanie> Unity!
16:23:19 <API> mgorse, as gnome_accessibility_module_init
16:23:21 <API> was removed
16:23:25 <API> Unity is already broken
16:23:31 <joanie> hahah
16:24:06 <API> so a patch is required with or without that gtk3 module
16:24:15 <joanie> API info please
16:25:19 <API> #info as gnome_accessibility_module_init was removed, any apps that were using at-spi2-atk gtk 3 (like unity) will require to modify his initialization code, with or without gtk3 module
16:25:30 <mgorse> and I should probably prepare a patch to make the bridge into an object. I'm hesitant to advise Luke when I don't know if the API is going to change again
16:25:52 <API> #info anyway, as all modules are porting to that, the recommended is use the library
16:26:10 <API> mgorse, I don't think that the xx_init method API needs to change
16:26:39 <API> you can keep it in that way, without modifying what returns
16:26:46 <API> if you want the bridge
16:26:53 <API> you could add a new method
16:27:11 <API> because, as far as I see, the bridge will be a singleton, right?
16:27:12 <joanie> so if Unity is already broken.... What other issues w.r.t. the patch to remove the bridge?
16:27:25 <joanie> not bridge
16:27:29 <joanie> gtk3 module
16:27:46 <API> I can't think in any other
16:27:56 <joanie> mgorse: can you?
16:27:57 <API> anyway, that seems too much detail for the #a11y meeting
16:28:05 <joanie> not
16:28:07 <joanie> because
16:28:38 <joanie> I am not applying that patch
16:28:43 <mgorse> I can't think of any, but I gues "what issues are there that none of us can fporesee?" is the real question
16:28:45 <joanie> until we reach a decision
16:29:04 <joanie> so do I commit the patch or not?
16:29:12 <API> but we don't need to apply that patch/reach a decision about that patch during this meeting
16:29:18 <joanie> ok
16:30:11 <API> mgorse, joanie lets try to decide that off-meeting, as it is already past 30
16:30:27 <API> anything else, any other one wants to add something in this topic?
16:30:37 <clown> just a note, API
16:31:02 <clown> #info Joseph has some preliminary code for the focus/caret tracker in gnome-shell
16:31:15 <joanie> yay!
16:31:20 <clown> #info very flakey at the moment, and needs lots of debugging.
16:31:30 <clown> done — questions?
16:31:35 <API> flakey == crashes or bad behaviour?
16:32:03 <clown> sometimes crashes, but I find it very difficult when running GS whether it's my code or something else.
16:32:12 <clown> and bad behaviour
16:32:44 <clown> I don't always get the bounding rect of the focussed component.
16:32:49 <clown> I'm trying to see why.
16:32:51 <API> so your GS also crashes without that code?
16:32:59 <clown> sometimes
16:33:22 <clown> and almost never is there a stack trace or error message.  it just gives up the ghost.
16:34:06 <API> well, in that cases
16:34:06 * jjmarin thinks clown has a computer with not very well supported graphic card
16:34:15 * clown checks...
16:34:38 <API> running gnome-shell on gdb is an option ..
16:34:39 <clown> AMD Radeon.
16:34:56 <API> but as I said, too many details for the a11y meeting
16:34:59 <API> so other question
16:35:02 <clown> yeah, good idea.
16:35:12 <API> how feasible do you see to have this for gnome 3.6?
16:35:26 <clown> API, freeze date?
16:35:28 <API> I suppose that in this case another ping pong effect are unlikely
16:35:42 * API looking
16:35:54 <clown> If there is any ping pong effect, it might be: "don't write this in JavaScript; you should do it in C".
16:35:57 <API> ui freeze = 20 august
16:36:09 <API> hard code freeze = 17 sep
16:36:16 <clown> That means I have a month and a week. Hmmm...
16:36:31 <clown> since I go on vacation for two week in mid august.
16:36:34 <API> clown, but always in the same project right?
16:37:05 <clown> API, not sure.  It might be very useful to have focus/caret tracking as an atspi "utility".
16:37:16 <API> well, yes
16:37:18 <clown> then any other process can use it.
16:37:21 <clown> not just gnome shell.
16:37:23 <API> but that seems more complex and long term
16:37:33 <API> I guess that having it first on gnome-shell
16:37:38 <API> as a prototype
16:37:39 <clown> right.  make it work in gnome shell first, and migrate to a more universal location.
16:37:43 <clown> later
16:37:46 <API> and also having it on compiz
16:38:07 <API> will give ideas of how to implement it in a general way
16:38:07 <clown> and unity!  ;-)
16:38:16 <joanie> :)
16:38:25 <API> well unity uses compiz
16:38:41 <API> in theory unity should already being able to do that
16:39:10 <clown> well, compiz may itself do this.  not sure.
16:39:12 <jjmarin> compiz is only maintained by Canonical because Unity, AFAIK
16:39:30 <API> clown, aleiva made a equivalent work to yours for eZoom
16:39:37 <clown> or, beacuse not gnome shell on ubuntu.
16:39:39 <API> some months ago
16:39:43 <API> thats the reason I said
16:39:54 <API> "now that it is in two places"
16:39:57 <API> gnome-shell and compiz,
16:40:07 <API> that could give a good idea of how to implement it in a general way
16:40:11 * clown makes note:  look at alieva's focus tracking code, and steal as much of it as possible...
16:40:20 <joanie> :)
16:40:24 <clown> right API.
16:40:34 <API> anyway, as I said
16:40:44 <API> too many details, and already 40 minutes with first topic
16:40:45 <API> so
16:40:55 <API> moving on? or more GNOME 3.6 stuff?
16:41:46 <jjmarin> clown: https://github.com/gloob/gloob-Ezoom-fork
16:41:53 <joanie> we can move on
16:41:55 <clown> thanks jjmarin!
16:42:00 <joanie> I see this being a weekly topic
16:42:06 <joanie> too much in the air
16:42:13 <API> jjmarin, anyway, afaik, that work was merged with ezoom
16:42:23 <API> so not sure if that it is the more recent thing
16:42:24 <jjmarin> ah, ok
16:42:24 <clown> as for being ready for 3.6, let me see how the next week proceeds, API.
16:42:33 <API> clown, ok thanks
16:42:36 <API> so moving on then
16:42:47 <API> #topic GUADEC BoF planning
16:42:49 <API> joanie, ?
16:42:56 * joanie goes quickly
16:43:20 <joanie> #info Joanie, Piñeiro, and Juanjo need to plan and publicize the BoF.
16:43:30 <joanie> #info outside of this meeting :P
16:43:33 <joanie> done
16:43:42 <jjmarin> ok !
16:44:23 <API> that was quick
16:44:27 <API> questions doubts?
16:45:35 <API> seems that no
16:45:49 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
16:45:52 <API> jjmarin, ?
16:45:58 <jjmarin> #info the FoG a11y counter hasn't been updated by now, but it is supposed to be update soon
16:47:03 <jjmarin> #info No info by now about the OFL common FLOSS organization a11y booth/activities. Karen keeps working to get an answer
16:47:10 <jjmarin> done !
16:47:22 <jjmarin> questions and suggestions ?
16:47:40 <API> jjmarin, just a question
16:47:41 <jjmarin> s/and/or/
16:47:53 <API> about how "quick" that money was got
16:48:01 <API> did you talk about that on marketing?
16:48:07 <API> how the marketing people felt about that
16:48:10 <API> ?
16:48:17 <API> too slow, normal, fast?
16:48:20 <jjmarin> lately the money is getting very slow
16:48:43 <jjmarin> that's because we tried to publicited lately
16:49:05 <jjmarin> but it's only getting a little bit better (from stalled to slow)
16:49:23 <joanie> it would be interesting to know how much of that is a11y versus how much is the economy
16:49:38 <joanie> my personal charitable giving has gone down
16:49:49 <API> well, for example
16:49:58 <API> in the case of the sysadmin fog campaign
16:50:16 <API> how many time they required to get that money (and how much money)?
16:50:26 <jjmarin> well, I agree that  economical situation is a factor
16:50:33 <mgorse> I'd guess you'd get a burst of donations as soon as it was announced, and then it would slow down
16:50:34 <joanie> and what was the state of the economy
16:50:55 <jjmarin> API it is supposed they want to start another campaign, but I haven't seen any move lately
16:50:55 <joanie> and where did the bulk of the donations come from?
16:51:26 * joanie notes that we really need to study this and adds it to her Board related to do list
16:51:36 <API> jjmarin, no I was talking about the old one
16:51:37 <jjmarin> mainly regular FoG donation I guess
16:51:49 <jjmarin> no real data, I can ask
16:51:52 <API> I mean that some years ago they created a fog campaing for sys-admin
16:52:11 <API> so just wondering if a11y one was slower, faster or at the same pace
16:53:08 <jjmarin> Is slower that the sys-admin campaing, but for that campaing several companies made donations
16:53:31 <jjmarin> for the a11y campaing we only have personal donations
16:53:45 <API> and now wondering why several companies were interested on a gnome sys-admin but not on a a11y fundraising :P
16:53:52 <joanie> heh
16:54:11 <API> it is funny that most companies always sees a11y as really important and part of their values
16:54:17 <API> anyway, sorry for the random rant
16:54:20 <joanie> s/sees/says/
16:54:24 <API> more questions doubts on that topic?
16:54:46 <API> joanie: says that see :P
16:55:00 <jjmarin> Maybe I can ask Karen to ask for money to companies
16:55:22 <jjmarin> for the a11y campaign
16:55:45 <jjmarin> Do you think is good idea ?
16:56:19 <API> I don't see why not, and I suppose that she already did
16:57:30 <API> so, as we are almost finishing the meeting
16:57:35 <API> and nobody is talking
16:57:39 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will talk with Karen about companies donation for the FoG a11y campaing
16:57:44 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
16:57:47 <jjmarin> s/with/to/
16:58:05 <API> something not scheduled/planned that you want to share/ask?
16:59:31 * clown *crickets*
16:59:51 <jjmarin> it's not so hot today here
17:00:12 <clown> it's supposed to go up to 32 here
17:00:29 <jhernandez> jjmarin: here 35, 5 less than yesterday
17:00:33 <jhernandez> :S
17:00:38 <jjmarin> hehe
17:00:57 <mgorse> Like 38 here today. I guess our weather is kind of like Sevilla, though
17:01:12 <clown> currently, with humidex, it's already 30.
17:01:25 <clown> 11:00am here...
17:01:30 <jjmarin> lol
17:01:43 <joanie> only 29 here today.
17:01:49 <jjmarin> mgorse and jhernandez live in hell
17:01:50 <jhernandez> mgorse: :O
17:01:52 <clown> cool new hampshire.
17:02:25 <jjmarin> 28 in Cadiz :-)
17:02:51 <joanie> 22 in A Coruña
17:03:09 <jjmarin> API wins !
17:03:09 <joanie> I wish they'd let me move
17:03:14 <API> really really interesting
17:03:21 <API> :P
17:03:27 <API> so lets finish the meeting
17:03:30 <API> #endmeeting